And a Brute *still* can't do what a Stalker can.
I won't claim that Stalkers are better than Brutes, but it's not as cut and dry as you put it.
I love my Claws/EA brute to death, but that stealth can be a curse in some situations. If it weren't for Shockwave (something your DM/EA doesn't have), I wouldn't stand a chance keeping an NPC alive solo...and believe me, I've fail quite a few missions because mobs don't even know I'm there. Now on teams? Yeah, Brutes aren't Tankers, but they are viable 'tanks'. On a team where aggro isn't an issue, Energy Aura is awesome but it isn't without its faults.
...not to mention, I *still* feel the lack of burst damage when I play Brutes. Yeah, they'll tear through masses with AoEs and put a constant pounding on those EBs, but when you want to drop a target *now*?
Now, when Scrappers get EA's unsuppressed stealth, *then* I'd say we really have something to worry about...
Heh.
While not for the same reasons, one of the reasons I have such fond memories of my Em/Ea Brute was having people *continually* cuss me out as "That *&#$# Stalker!" while playing her in the zones. (Pre-I13.) Then telling others to look out for my (slotted-for) stuns that seemed to last forever.
It's just not the same now (and not just because the zones tend to be dead.)
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And a Brute *still* can't do what a Stalker can.
I won't claim that Stalkers are better than Brutes, but it's not as cut and dry as you put it. I love my Claws/EA brute to death, but that stealth can be a curse in some situations. If it weren't for Shockwave (something your DM/EA doesn't have), I wouldn't stand a chance keeping an NPC alive solo...and believe me, I've fail quite a few missions because mobs don't even know I'm there. Now on teams? Yeah, Brutes aren't Tankers, but they are viable 'tanks'. On a team where aggro isn't an issue, Energy Aura is awesome but it isn't without its faults. ...not to mention, I *still* feel the lack of burst damage when I play Brutes. Yeah, they'll tear through masses with AoEs and put a constant pounding on those EBs, but when you want to drop a target *now*? Now, when Scrappers get EA's unsuppressed stealth, *then* I'd say we really have something to worry about... |
I begin to think that Stalker's ability to Assassin Strike in the beginning is the exact reason why this AT is never going to be team-friendly unless the dev makes some big changes. Yes, no other ATs have Assassin Strike but do they "need" it?? I run teams myself all the time and I don't usually turn down Stalkers (unless the team has too many melee already) but some "picky" leaders would think "mmmm, burst damage... let's get Blaster or hell, another Corruptor/Defender to make sure that "burst" damage is not really required".
I've come to the conclusion that this "thing" that other ATs don't have is the exact reason why Stalker isn't built for team-friendly. Stalker doesn't hurt the team but to boost people's confidence in Stalker, the dev needs to do a lot more than just a "few" changes.
Like I said, I used to play mostly Stalkers but recently I've made a MA Scrapper and now a Brute. I can see why people complain about Stalker especially those that are used to playing Scrapper/Brute.
The only thing Stalker has is almost 100% stealth (very few mobs can see). That is it. Does Stalker solo better? Nope. I guarantee my Brute can solo faster than any of my Stalker especially at lvl 24. There is no comparison at all. I only slot for END, ACC and RECHARGE and I can keep going the whole mission without even rest once and I don't even have Endurance Drain yet!
I like Stalkers but the most I play other ATs, the more I feel this AT is lacking. Yeah, Stalker at lvl 24 can solo +1 or +2 with 1-4 mobs while my Brute can "comfortably" solo more than 3-4 enemies easily.
PS: By the way, is the stealth in Dark Armor unsuppressed too? Doesn't Scrapper have Dark Armor?
PS2: And I don't know about you but I play an online game specifically for teaming. I only solo when I only have time for 1 or 2 missions. If a game is pushing for "teaming" (which they should), then this Stalker AT hasn't done very well. I am not denying that being able to stealth through the mission and tp everyone isn't helpful but most people join a team to "kill". They just want to kill and get expeees.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The good thing is I took Taunt (for the first time in my 4 years of playing!!) so when I want aggro, I'll use it and when I don't want it, I won't use it. :P Flexibility is there and it's not like my Dark Melee has big aoe..not yet. I'll see when I hit 26.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Heh.
While not for the same reasons, one of the reasons I have such fond memories of my Em/Ea Brute was having people *continually* cuss me out as "That *&#$# Stalker!" while playing her in the zones. (Pre-I13.) Then telling others to look out for my (slotted-for) stuns that seemed to last forever. It's just not the same now (and not just because the zones tend to be dead.) |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Here is the big problem I see in lower level Stalkers:
1. If you take Assassin Strike and Placate (and/or Build Up) (which many stalkers do because they think Assassin Strike is the reason why they play a Stalker) at lvl 6 and lvl 8, your Stalker may only have two legit attack chains (minus vet rewards). And let's be honest, even with the new AS damage buff, it is still not a good attack because 1. you can't use it if you are under heavy attack. 2. if you miss it and get interrupted, you lose like what? 15end? That will be the quickest way drain yourself dried.
2. Why do some people think Stalker is too fragile? Well, if they only take primary powers, they don't have enough rooms to take defensive shields until later. A melee AT with almost no shields and below average health = the definition of Fragile. Unlike most Stalkers, I don't take Placate until 30s because I want to survive better and Stalker can. However, if I take 2-3 defensive shields early on and took Assassin Strike, my attack is only consisted of tier 1 and 2. It is pathetic dps to say the least... Having two attacks is fine if you solo on your own and you have all the time in the world to "wait". I can't imagine having no vet attacks at this point.
3. Oh and no AoE. Ninja Blade, Dual Blade Broadsword and Claw all lose an early aoe attack.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Honestly, I simply ignore all those other 'things' that people perceive and hope the devs do too. Players will create a powerset combo on a Scrapper or Brute, build it up, cover over its weaknesses and generally pimp it out then create a new Blaster or Stalker and be all 'What the hell!?'.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I've come to the conclusion that this "thing" that other ATs don't have is the exact reason why Stalker isn't built for team-friendly. Stalker doesn't hurt the team but to boost people's confidence in Stalker, the dev needs to do a lot more than just a "few" changes.
Like I said, I used to play mostly Stalkers but recently I've made a MA Scrapper and now a Brute. I can see why people complain about Stalker especially those that are used to playing Scrapper/Brute. |
They fail to acknowledge the differences, advantages and disadvantages the AT/powerset has nor the build they used to overcome those disadvantages more often than not. This skews their perception of what's actually going on, like in your example above. Apparently you're not seeing the whole story and/or choosing to gloss over much of it to come to your conclusion. That's all well and good to form an opinion, but assure that you realize that it is just that: an *opinion*.
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The only thing Stalker has is almost 100% stealth (very few mobs can see). That is it. Does Stalker solo better? Nope. I guarantee my Brute can solo faster than any of my Stalker especially at lvl 24. There is no comparison at all. I only slot for END, ACC and RECHARGE and I can keep going the whole mission without even rest once and I don't even have Endurance Drain yet! I like Stalkers but the most I play other ATs, the more I feel this AT is lacking. Yeah, Stalker at lvl 24 can solo +1 or +2 with 1-4 mobs while my Brute can "comfortably" solo more than 3-4 enemies easily. |
That said, I'm not going to go point for point on what a Stalker can do...you should know (if you bother varying the way you approach fights, that is). Can my Claws/EA Brute find that Ring Mistress and destroy it before it destroys my defense, debuffs my recovery and proceeds to blast me to kingdom come with psi damage? Not reliably. But pretty much all my Stalkers can. What about that Dark Illusionist? Or that Sapper *and* Gunslinger? Or if I just want to skip an annoying spawn all together...Those are things that *can* be built toward but the Stalker can do it right off the bat. What can't a Stalker do? Tank? AoE damage? Have high survivability? My Spines/DA stalker can do all of those and he's only in the lvl 40s with only 3/4 his build done.
But just because I can do things on my Spines/DA stalker that I can't on my MA/SD Scrapper (he's amazingly damaging and bursty but has trouble surviving without inpsirations) doesn't mean there's something *wrong* with either AT. They're suppose to be competitive without one outperforming others. That you think drastic changes are required belies your experience with the AT as plain as day.
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| PS: By the way, is the stealth in Dark Armor unsuppressed too? Doesn't Scrapper have Dark Armor? |
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| PS2: And I don't know about you but I play an online game specifically for teaming. I only solo when I only have time for 1 or 2 missions. If a game is pushing for "teaming" (which they should), then this Stalker AT hasn't done very well. I am not denying that being able to stealth through the mission and tp everyone isn't helpful but most people join a team to "kill". They just want to kill and get expeees. |
But just to make a point, I've been on missions where the setting was too high and we had wipe after wipe. Even if you're joining a team to 'kill' for 'expeees', there's times where circumvention is a good option. When the defender or corruptor has to leave in the middle of a mission and all of a sudden we're getting slaughtered? That Warshade with stealth and team recall to keep the ball rolling is nice. Of course there's other options, like resetting the mission or just dropping it, but the sign of a good game is having these options.
The option to fulfill goals differently, the option to approach fights differently, the option to play ATs that feel/play differently...so on and so forth.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Oy, sometimes your ignorance annoys even me.
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I don't like to go to this route but you have the tendency to insult posters who think Stalkers need some changes or changes that YOU DON'T AGREE WITH.
You don't think your constant insulting is annoying? Yeah, I post here a lot because I play Stalkers a lot but I feel if I don't play enough Scrapper/Brute, then I'll never really understand why some people dislike Stalkers that much.
I think my patience of you has reached its limit. I usually state my personal experiences (through playing Scrapper and now /EA Brute and WITHOUT INSULTS) and offer some ideas that could make Stalker more appealing. Sure, not all of my ideas are great but I think the general idea is that Stalker needs some improvements especially on a team.
I created this /EA Brute thread just to make a point that Stalker could be better especially through "unsuppressed stealth" which may help a real Assassin like Stalker.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
By the way, last night we were doing Air Pirate SF in Martial and during the first mission, there was a big ambush when you try to lead the target out. Everyone was running ahead of me and I thought I could handle that big ambush (8 Tsoo Ancestral Lieuts and 1 Sorc). That ambush was only a location based (instead of them chasing you nonstop).
I found them and started attacking the first two Ancestrals. Guess what??? The other 6 didn't even react to me! Then I took out two more Ancestral plus one sorc. The other 4 Ancestrals still stood there!!
I don't know if this is a bug or it's what unsuppressed stealth is supposed to be like but I've encountered several situations where /EA stealth is even more beneficial than Stalker's Hide. I felt I was more like an Assassin than Stalker just because I could stealth in and kill some targets without fully aggroing all of them.
Then in the second last mission where there were many vampires in the cave. I basically stealth through it and tp my friends to the big room. :P Sure, I get seen by some of them but they can barely hurt me.
It's just my experiences. You can give it a try if you want.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yup.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
By the way, last night we were doing Air Pirate SF in Martial and during the first mission, there was a big ambush when you try to lead the target out. Everyone was running ahead of me and I thought I could handle that big ambush (8 Tsoo Ancestral Lieuts and 1 Sorc). That ambush was only a location based (instead of them chasing you nonstop).
I found them and started attacking the first two Ancestrals. Guess what??? The other 6 didn't even react to me! Then I took out two more Ancestral plus one sorc. The other 4 Ancestrals still stood there!! I don't know if this is a bug or it's what unsuppressed stealth is supposed to be like but I've encountered several situations where /EA stealth is even more beneficial than Stalker's Hide. I felt I was more like an Assassin than Stalker just because I could stealth in and kill some targets without fully aggroing all of them. Then in the second last mission where there were many vampires in the cave. I basically stealth through it and tp my friends to the big room. :P Sure, I get seen by some of them but they can barely hurt me. It's just my experiences. You can give it a try if you want. |
These are identicle to ALL of my experiences with all of my EA Brutes.
In the "If You Were Castle How Would You Change Stalkers?" thread, located here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=241835, I actually proposed a portion of Hide working in the same fashion as an EA Brutes Energy Cloak. That portion of "unsupressable" hide would have the same values that EC for Brutes does. So basically, Hide would have a "2-part" Stealth system. So while you are actually "IN" Hidden Status (our current full on invisibility through) you can't be seen at all and your first attack can critical and you can get Assassin Strikes, however, once you attack and your Hidden Status is off, there is a portion of Hide that will not supress its Stealth component and remain on. This portion will not grant auto-criticals, and only gives your slightly more stealthyness and helps you to generate "less" aggro on teams and solo. Seems exactly what a Stalker wants/needs.
An example of this would be to take your Brute, get Super Speed + Energy Cloak or StealthIO + Energy Cloak. For the most part, this will make you almost undetectible by most mobs even if you're almost right next to them. Now, run up to a mob and attack him. Super Speed's -aggro/stealth or your StealthIO's stealth will supress the second you attack that mob....however, your Energy Cloak will still retain it's Stealth values, which means that while the spawn you are attacking may see you, any stragglers outside of that spawn, or nearby spawns, will not have a chance to see you. You remain...a stealthy assassin.
To me...this concept fits Stalkers....it fits them about 10 times more than it fits my Brutes....to be honest. Anyways, I advise anyone to give that thread a good read, there were some other really good suggestions on there as well. The "non-supressing" portion of Hide is somewhere towards the last couple of pages.
I have a brute stalker made for stealthing SFs
It's an EM/WP with a stealth IO, Super Speed, and often the grant invis power from the empowerment tables
hasten > frenzy > build up > energy transfer (or Total Focus if the SF is lower level)
usually takes a chunk out of whoever is on the receiving end.
Works great for me
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The stealthy style of /Energy brutes is vastly underrated. Glad another convert has come along. I am thinking of rolling up a Claws/EA brute to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
As funny as it sounds, I made a new Brute (because my friends have been harassing me that I only make Stalkers to 50 and not Brute) and to make it fun, I figure I would try Dark/Energy Aura as EA has Stealth. It started as a "joke" actually as I don't know how well EA on Brute is.
OH my.... this DA/EA Brute has become one of my favorite melee ATs so far. The new Fury makes Brute a lot more enjoyable. I didn't like Brute before because fury used to drop quicker when it's lower and I hate losing fury. But with the new change, it seems to build faster when it's lower and drops slower. I know it's hard to maintain it over 75% but Brute doesn't need 75% to be awesome. The stealth in EA is very interesting. I've seen it in action but have never tried it. The unsuppressed stealth sometimes allows me to kill one target in a group of 5 and the other 4 still don't know I am there! It takes them several seconds to figure out. LOL That's what ASSASSIN is supposed to be!!!! You stealth into a group and kill them and they don't even know you are there! Well, a shocking realization... Brute > Stalker by a pretty large margin IMO (especially on a large team). I know I've defended Stalker many many times but the new Fury allows me to constantly have high damage and I can just slot for ACC, RECH and END to make sure I keep it going. I am not a big Brute fan. I just really enjoy DA/EA right now and this makes me realize how bad Stalker is at low level on a team. If you take AS at lvl 6 and Placate at lvl 8. You really only have two legit attacks (assuming you take some shields as well). They gotta do something about Assassin strike because I think this power is the reason why Stalker sucks on a team. Brute sets a very high standard for what a melee dps class should be like... and Stalker has more to catch up IMO. |
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I didn't know what is unsuppressed stealth like but now I think I am sold. :P It's a different kind of stalker. Not the same for sure.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
The stealthy style of /Energy brutes is vastly underrated. Glad another convert has come along. I am thinking of rolling up a Claws/EA brute to be honest.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Dear Santa Castle,|
Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Yup.
These are identicle to ALL of my experiences with all of my EA Brutes. In the "If You Were Castle How Would You Change Stalkers?" thread, located here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=241835, I actually proposed a portion of Hide working in the same fashion as an EA Brutes Energy Cloak. That portion of "unsupressable" hide would have the same values that EC for Brutes does. So basically, Hide would have a "2-part" Stealth system. So while you are actually "IN" Hidden Status (our current full on invisibility through) you can't be seen at all and your first attack can critical and you can get Assassin Strikes, however, once you attack and your Hidden Status is off, there is a portion of Hide that will not supress its Stealth component and remain on. This portion will not grant auto-criticals, and only gives your slightly more stealthyness and helps you to generate "less" aggro on teams and solo. Seems exactly what a Stalker wants/needs. An example of this would be to take your Brute, get Super Speed + Energy Cloak or StealthIO + Energy Cloak. For the most part, this will make you almost undetectible by most mobs even if you're almost right next to them. Now, run up to a mob and attack him. Super Speed's -aggro/stealth or your StealthIO's stealth will supress the second you attack that mob....however, your Energy Cloak will still retain it's Stealth values, which means that while the spawn you are attacking may see you, any stragglers outside of that spawn, or nearby spawns, will not have a chance to see you. You remain...a stealthy assassin. To me...this concept fits Stalkers....it fits them about 10 times more than it fits my Brutes....to be honest. Anyways, I advise anyone to give that thread a good read, there were some other really good suggestions on there as well. The "non-supressing" portion of Hide is somewhere towards the last couple of pages. |
Please do this.
Sincerely, CoX community.
My Stalkerish Brute is lvl 35 now. I must say this is one very fun Brute.
To make my Brute more Stalkerish, I added 3 damage procs in Shadow Punch and Smite to give myself little Critical system. It feels really good when at least two procs go off at once. I see 4 damage numbers! I don't see the word Critical but those orange numbers look just as good.
I did put at least one damage proc in Siphon Life and Midnight but I think Siphon Life power is better off with a mix of damage and healing. I may change that later. With Brute's higher base health, Siphon Life's healing is better than on Stalker's lower base health.
If you like an alternative Stalker-style gameplay, I highly recommend /EA Brute and Bane.
I've had people telling me it's stupid to have Stealth on Brute because I am supposed to be the "tanker". Well, I see it as being flexible because I took Taunt and if I feel like grabbing aggro, I'll use it and if I don't feel like grabbing aggro, I just run past them or run in to kill them one by one. And Energy Aura gives decent defense. So far, the only big difference between Brute and Stalker damage is when my fury is low. I usually save Soul Drain when my fury is low.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I really do love my EM/EA brute. The ability to have exactly as much aggro as I want at any given time is kinda awesome. I couldn't imagine playing her without taunt though - even if it is only slotted with a single stun proc.
I can't say it has replaced my DM/SR Stalker though. Actually, the Stalker performs a little better to be honest (looks cuter too).
NECRO!!!
Just had to comment as well, my DM/EA brute is fantastic, though I ain't looking forward to the agony of respec'ing him to Inherent Fitness. The stealthyness came in handy too many times to count on my way up to 50, and I never had an issue with aggro management (eg too low fury) with both Soul Drain and Energy Absorption for AoE pissing off.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it, makes me wanna dust mine off.
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I pretty much echo some of Jibikao's feelings about /EA brute "stalker". When my friends ask what kind of stalker to make I say make an /EA brute.
Stalkers should be the best single target AT hands down and should give a "team buff" other than dps.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
I level my Dark/Energy Brute to 40 before alpha came out and haven't really played until last night.
I just made an alpha build with him. I used three damage procs so my +damage is only at about 40%. I am using Muscular with him for sure to get +damage higher.
I can't wait to get my first real aoe from patron.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Your description = Bane soldier. :P
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Stalkers should be the best single target AT hands down and should give a "team buff" other than dps. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
As funny as it sounds, I made a new Brute (because my friends have been harassing me that I only make Stalkers to 50 and not Brute) and to make it fun, I figure I would try Dark/Energy Aura as EA has Stealth. It started as a "joke" actually as I don't know how well EA on Brute is.
OH my.... this DA/EA Brute has become one of my favorite melee ATs so far. The new Fury makes Brute a lot more enjoyable. I didn't like Brute before because fury used to drop quicker when it's lower and I hate losing fury. But with the new change, it seems to build faster when it's lower and drops slower. I know it's hard to maintain it over 75% but Brute doesn't need 75% to be awesome.
The stealth in EA is very interesting. I've seen it in action but have never tried it. The unsuppressed stealth sometimes allows me to kill one target in a group of 5 and the other 4 still don't know I am there! It takes them several seconds to figure out. LOL That's what ASSASSIN is supposed to be!!!! You stealth into a group and kill them and they don't even know you are there!
Well, a shocking realization... Brute > Stalker by a pretty large margin IMO (especially on a large team). I know I've defended Stalker many many times but the new Fury allows me to constantly have high damage and I can just slot for ACC, RECH and END to make sure I keep it going. I am not a big Brute fan. I just really enjoy DA/EA right now and this makes me realize how bad Stalker is at low level on a team. If you take AS at lvl 6 and Placate at lvl 8. You really only have two legit attacks (assuming you take some shields as well). They gotta do something about Assassin strike because I think this power is the reason why Stalker sucks on a team.
Brute sets a very high standard for what a melee dps class should be like... and Stalker has more to catch up IMO.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.