Leo_G
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Quote:Most likely for balance purposes. One shouldn't get powers to wholly neutralize foes alone...or at least not every foe. Coupled with another ally, though, it another story.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's the thing, though - what character has access to more than a couple of immobilize powers? OK, an Energy Melee one. Shifting gears, what character has more than a couple of Hold powers? Not very many. You'd think a Controller would be able to stack status effects, given that Controllers have so many, but their control effects are all different kinds that don't stack with each other. Immobilize, Hold, Sleep, Stun, Slow, Knockback... They have many tools, but these tools don't stack with each other.
Can certainly discuss that too, though.
Good, we're on the same page. Now to figure out *WHAT* differing effects could we *ADD* to the different mezzes. That's where I'm at here.Quote:Now, I have to agree with you to a point still - I'm not really opposed to different control EFFECTS, even such that don't always work on the same targets. Diversity of control effects helps keep things interesting... As long as their magnitude stacks anyway. That stacking is all I'm after, and whatever system ends up achieving it, I will stand behind 100%.
I've been contemplating the 'Deflect' mez mechanic and wondering if/how it'd work. I could see adding this to some melee damage sets as well as specific buff sets as a means to not really control but to defend and create damage. -
You can explain away alot of stuff. But with the theme of the set currently? Not so much...but then I was always against giving Electric and Energy Armor heals because they really didn't quite convey that theme. But I can explain those away with the character specific themes:
Elec Armor: The guy is a meta-cat transformed into part human. His ability to control the powers imbued in him form from his simple-mindedness. He does what he's told and, even in fits of rage, he can simply 'forget' he's injured which puts more faith in the power bound to him. All he has to do is roar in anger and his body will be re-energized.
Energy Aura: Well, he's a werewolf/were-cerberus. He primarily feeds on, not blood, but bloodlust. The act of killing and bleeding his foes gives him power by taking away their energy and vitality.
Eh, both lean heavily on the fact that they are 'Brutes' and they 'keep going' for some reason (rage, bloodlust, determination, etc.).
For FF and Sonic...well, FF is about shields, barriers and deflecting things. So give it powers that do that. Sonic is about disturbing atomic structures to make them unstable (I guess...that's what actual sonic resonance does to shatter wine glasses and such) so something like that.
As for Trick Arrow...I have suggested, in the past, to let you do 'tricks' with your arrows. Just like you can combine Oil Slick Arrow with fire/energy to make that fiery patch. Would be cool if Ice Arrow was changed to Crystalline Arrow and if you shoot it with light (energy or psionics), it creates a blinding flash that could stun nearby foes of the frozen target...stuff like that. -
Quote:Let go of this mentality.Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Everybody has a primary and a secondary, having one doesn't automatically compensate for the other not pulling its weight.
Having a part of your powers not working to full effect is not only common for other ATs and set combos, it's a staple of comic book plot. When foes have ridiculous ToHit buffs, those defense armors aren't going fare well..almost as if they have very little armor. Foes will have resistances to mezzes, making controls difficult or impossible to use. They will have resistances that negate debuffs...so on and so forth.
What the goal, IMO, when making a character should be is either focusing on a speciality or making a character that is a generalist, capable of two or more applicable abilities. A specialist will do one thing well at the expense of doing anything else badly. A generalist will just do several things at moderate ability (or great ability with significant disadvantages attached).
You can make your Sonic Resonance character and specialize your abilities, picking up other resist debuffs, damage and what not, or you can generalize your abilities, picking up ToHit debuffs, controls and means to slow the foes attacks.
If one of your power types is compromised, then it's up to you how to approach it, either leaning more heavily on that type of power to attempt to overcome the difficult situation, or change tactics and rely on something else.
Both situations have their advantages but both also run into the situation of failing because the tools they bring won't completely win the fight.
For me, it's probably the suggestions not being all that thematic for the set. I have no problem adding to a set, especially if it better conveys the theme of the set. Nothing in FF or Sonic screams -regen or -dmg to me. I wouldn't mind adding to the set, but not for the pure sake of "make it perform like these other sets in this situation". If you're going to add capabilities, let it do something thematic. I'd honestly rather keep TA the same as it is vs jamming a heal arrow into it, for example.Quote:Originally Posted by William_Valence
Non-targeted statement: That was my biggest goal. If I failed on that goal, could someone explain. What would be preferable changes, and how do my suggestions either homogenize the sets or not address the issue (or both)? -
Quote:When you make me agree with Bill, a lemur is sold into prostitution...now thats not right...don't let those lemur pimps win...Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Honestly - and this is a general statement - it feels like so many people just want to homogenize everything with threads like this. Give us all sets that are 99% the same in values and effects, just with different effects. Blah. Boring.
Also, i think they should buff EvilRyu. Its like, every post he completely misses. Buff his ToHit or something >_> -
Oy, why'd I even try cobbling together a post on my phone...ah well, let's try this again >_>
Quote:Funny you seek to make mez less binary but the direction of your brainstorming does nothing to accomplish this...it only homogenizes magnitude. It's not a bad direction to start in but far from your intended goal. And honestly, it's not mine either.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I actually feel exactly the reverse of the thread's direction. Rather than making status effects more diverse and complex, I've always wanted to make them simpler and, if possible, even boil them down to the same single effect. Why? Because then control-heavy characters could much more easily stack status effects the same way they stack "damage" on enemies, and status effects in general can stop being so binary.
While I can get behind thoughts on how to fix mezzing in CoX, I *REALLY* doubt *ANYTHING* so drastic will ever come about.
You see, you're coming at the thread with the idea of 'fixing mez' while I'm coming at it as 'expanding it' not to make it intentionally more complicated, but so there's multiple 'layers' of differing multitude of effects that still interact with the game in the same way.
That last part is important. This interacts with the game 'the same way'. I'm aiming to keep anything added as simple and integrateable as possible as it's more likely to be added to the game without overhauling everything.
And this is why I think I'm onto something. Because my OP does basically what you describe. You see those effects up there? Stun, Disorient and Shocked...those are all protected against by 'Stun resist/protection'. They are different 'effects' but they are the same mez. You *can* stack them to overcome a target's resists. That was the whole point, really. But they don't stack in a binary fashion...or not completely binary.Quote:Yes, this means that some enemies would be harder to control with a single application of any control effect, but it also means that we will not need enemies who are so completely immune to control effects as to leave Controllers with basically only one powerset out of two for AV fights. It means that enemies who are resistant to control effects can be only PARTIALLY resistant, and it would still work because many more players would be able to build up control magnitude.
I'm not really opposed to powers having different effects, but I'd rather see them as secondary effects to the same basic overall "hold" effect such that any status effect in the game can stack with any other effect, as well. If you have a Blaster with Web Grenade and a Brute with Stun, I'd like to see those serve to help a Controller cage an Elite Boss with Char more easily, even though we're combining a stun with an immob with a hold.
Stun (the described effect above) comes with a high movement penalty, disorient would grant a chance to knock- every time the target moves while under its effects and shocked completely cancels movement. One could stack these for different outcomes across multiple characters....
For example: Thunder Clap causes 'shocked', Oppressive Gloom causes 'stunned' and energy melee causes 'disorientation'. One can hit a foe with energy melee attacks then have a teammate follow up with TC to stack mag and hard-control the stunned foe's movements. Or a DA/EM Tanker can run OG...this sends targets wobbling away once they become stunned. If he decides to stack it with EM's disorient, there's a chance those foes wobbling away will literally fly *back* (or down if one can't send the foe in the opposite direction they are facing) to the tank since they're disoriented *and* stunned.
Another example: Consumed is basically a moveable static field except it's effects require itself to stack. I consider thematiclly, powers like Flash Freeze being something that is 'consuming' you, constantly growing to cover you up and completely encapsulate you. You can keep wiggling to try and break some off, but if you don't keep it up, it'll swallow you up anyway. In conjunction with an actual sleep like Mass Hypnosis? What easier way for the ice to completely consume a person than if that person was asleep and unable to struggle? That's what stacking a 'consume' sleep and a 'sleep' sleep accomplishes. They're the same 'mez' but interact with other powers differently.
But beyond that, the main point of my suggestion stems from the new Titan Weapon set's gimmick. Momentum. You and me, Sam, know each other's stance on gimmicks like these. I enjoy seeing them on all new sets and powers while you're rather indifferent. Well, I feel a bit different with momentum. I see no reason why I can't use such an effect on, say, Katana. Really, any type of swung weapon will hinge on the use of momentum. It's a gimmick that shouldn't be limited to one new set...but it is. Oh well. But things can change and as more new powers and sets are made, you have to wonder if they'll bother making newer and newer gimmicks or will they revisit some of the cooler stuff we have and rehash it.
Personally, I *WANT* them to rehash old stuff too. I want AoE teleport mez powers a la Wormhole...but then you start infringing on old sets too. Which kind of comes back to my thought. These 'new status effects' aren't meant to complicate mezzing, just add new dynamics to mezzing that can be retrofitted to old sets or added to new sets without taking the shine of the old. -
Quote:In PvP.Originally Posted by Elegost
don't stalkers get a higher crit chance on sleeping targets?
Stalkers used to get a 20% chance to crit held or slept foes but this was changed when the AT was buffed. Now, in PvE, we get a base 10% crit chance that scales up with nearby teammates.
Currently, in PvP, the scaling crit chance is removed and replaced with the old crit on mez scale. -
Quote:One could almost say the same about immobilizes but then those have other tactical advantages. But I'm in agreement with you, sleeps (and intangibility) have limited use. And IMO, confuse is too rare.Originally Posted by Hercules
What I wish they'd do is make both slows and sleep powers a more integral part of the game. With the exception of electric trollers, sleeps are pretty useless - too much AE damage going on in most teams. I've found slows to be very useful, although I dont often see that opinion among other players.
I was actually thinking this when writing up the OP. The only problem you run into is, if the target is slept for a moderate duration, most likely they'll have a chance to let their powers recharge, even at a very slow rate. The only way this would work properly is if this 'grogginess' had some sort of affect on the enemy AI that caused them to hesitate before attacking. So, upon waking up, the foe would toss out an attack and then 'forget' he had any other attacks recharged for a bit.Quote:My suggestions:
Sleeps:
When "awoke" from a sleep by damage, a mob should have a "groggy" period where his recharge is greatly diminished and possibly a short period of disorientation.
It's kind of the reverse of 'drowsy' in that, if they don't attack or move (because maybe they're held or knocked back or slowed or running away from them) they'll simply fall asleep and keep doing so until the drowsy status wears off. Most importantly is, you can still *hit* the target and get results from the mez, you just have to keep the target from hitting anyone else.
It's more meant to mix up mez tactics...so not just toss mag on target and forget they're there (sleeps/intangibility) or stack mag to overcome (stun, hold), you're looking to time your actions to stop the foe from taking action to finally get mezzed.
I'm trying to think of -movement that doesn't do -recharge. Glue/web does, toxic thorns/spines do, cold does...the only ones off the top of my head is tar patch...which isn't really tar but rather a pit of darkness. Gravity doesn't slow recharge but it does reduce flight and jump too. Then there's the slicks (oil and ice) but then those don't make sense to slow recharge.Quote:Slows:
All slow powers should also slow down mob attack rates - a lot of slow powers do, but I don't think all. In addition, it should lower the accuracy of mob attacks.
But then that's something else that's interesting. One can greatly differentiate themes with its variety of debuffs. For gravity, slowing movement and inhibiting jump and flight make sense as a 'gravity slow' while toxic DoT, a bit of -rech and a chance of immobilize make some sense for a 'spines toxin/thorns stapling you to the floor' slow. But a lot more could be said to make the differences more pronounced. -
Quote:And yet it can work in reverse. Since every foe has ranged attacks and uses them often. I think it'd be a fun way to give Melee ATs a version of confuse without being overpowered.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
In a game where 'just stay at range' is practically impossible, this would screw over so many sets. I just...can't vocalise how much this sounds like a really *bad* idea without coming across as overly blunt or rude, so I'll settle for; I would wager heavily on this being a very, very unpopular change for next to little mechanical of 'fun' gain.
For players, you just don't shoot when you're standing right next to the target. If you think 'just stay at range' is impossible (wow, what game do you play? don't we get free travel powers now?) then do something *GASP!* logical. Use melee attacks instead.
If you didn't pick any of those up, then that's just a tactical disadvantage no different than foes keeping their distance or forcing players to move away.
Well, do you play dominators/controllers? It's bad enough the targets you need to control are very difficult to impossible to control. Yeah, you go up to a gravity dom and tell them their ST hold shouldn't do its job where practically every other tool at its disposal isn't going to stop that boss from plowing their face in.Quote:I'd rather go with Lemur's suggestion. All Mez atm is either no mez or hard mez. And Hard mez that lasts for 30+ seconds (Hello Malta) is not Fun. It's also not even challenging; you are mezzed, or you aren't. And if you're mezzed like that in a mob, you're pretty much dead solo.
Anyway, not to be argumentative but, it's hard to even consider your perspective when you basically say nothing about it. That mez shouldn't be so binary...great. How? I could have said the same thing in my OP but that's not only boring, but rather dumb to bring up if you have no vision go about doing so.
Perhaps I should re-explain the direction I'm coming in at?
1. I'm not trying to redesign the game here. That would require more than just talking about mezzes, but fighting dynamics and wholesale encounters we run into throughout the game. (Although the whole Phase section probably would be considered redesigning the game to make it fit).
2. I am trying to use current mechanics in the game and 'mix' them together to form something 'new-ish'. You can't make whole new mezzes because then you have to backtrack and add the appropriate means to defend against said mezzes. This is why I'm just expanding on the current types of mezzes and twisting them a bit.
3. This can be for adding to current sets to give them a shiny new coat to match the new sets released or to add to new sets to make them more unique without going deeper and deeper into convoluted gimmicks. How many new ways can we use sleep? We'll run out. So expand the definition of 'sleep' so there's more of it to try and use. -
Quote:It didn't mention that because I thought it interfered with Stalker tactics. I just mentioned it because the devs have a tendency (now) to drop damage-less utility powers vs actual attacks. I guess Repulsing Torrent was kind of like an attack and it had good range but it doesn't quite mesh with the other attacks considering it knocks foes away (after you have to hop backward to line them up). Of the powers to drop from Ice melee:
I don't think Ice Patch is going to mess with stalker's performance. In fact, I think it's great because Stalker can stealth in and drop Ice Patch before the fight even starts! You can't set up Assassin Strike due to aggro? Good. It gives you a reason to use something else. Assassin Strike slows you down anything. And if those that truly love AS, you can still open the battle with BU + AS.
Greater Ice Sword: doubt they'd drop an 'actual' attack.
Freezing Touch: again, this is more a mix of damage and utility, like Siphon Life or Cobra Strike. Doubt it'd be dropped.
Frozen Aura: Have the devs ever dropped a tier 9? Nope.
Ice Slick: It's an amazing mitigating power...but it does no damage. Dropping it wouldn't affect the AT's damage output. It'd actually increase it...but lower mitigation.
That said, I'd be surprised if the devs right out dropped any PBAoE attacks anymore....wait, scratch that. They'd probably get rid of the whirling attacks from the weapon sets since it hasn't been shown we keep weapon PBAoEs...and considering they aren't as powerful as the cones, I really don't mind. -
I suppose you could dismiss it as 'more complicated'...
But I'm suggesting this not just for NPCs but for players too. Because we should be trying to vary the simple base of the game which is combat.
For instance, melee is melee and ranged is ranged. But there's nothing that discourages using ranged in melee. The deflect mechanic would make shooting at close range a hassle since, if a foe deflects your blaster, you can accidentally shoot any of your allies within line of sight of the mezzer. Melees would just have to spread out a bit beyond melee range.
People *love* Oil Slick Arrow and it's burn patch. Don't see why no one wouldn't love Poison Gas Arrow > Exploding Arrow leaving a mess of intoxicated, sick foes unable to hop back on their feet. Or heck, PGA > Ice Slick would basically be an AoE Hold. Power synergy is an oft requested feature that I'm totally behind. -
Quote:Another nitpick that usually people don't bother mentioning: You can get a lot more defense faster on a EA character than on a positional set barring maybe Ninjutsu.Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Nitpick all you like, that's still not the point I was making, and not what I said.
If you're gonna argue specifics, I'll simply say that before the halo-effect change to defense bonuses, and the addition of PvP IOs, it wasn't easy at all to cap, and I find it more than a little silly that you consider a PvP rare that generally sells for over the INF cap to be a viable part of the solution for most players.
I mean, with some clever slotting, I have a *near* capped to smash/lethal/fire/cold/energy stalker by lvl 32. He had a sizable amount of defense by lvl 18! Your SR and Shields are still needing to pick up passives and toggles while, on EA, I've got all my defense by around 26. It's not hard to cap EA nor is it really more difficult than SR or what have you. That is, to say, unless you *specifically* specify max level, certain budget, respect build...and then I'd just mention 'well, EA has a heal' so it's all right.
That said, I *REALLY* wish they would have kept the taunt out of the set. Although I'd have to play the set to get a definite feel for its changes, but they really bark of 'been there! done that!' for melee sets. It's just armor toggles, heal, aura, tier 9. At least before, it was more about the stealth. I'd have really enjoyed it if they took my idea and swapped Conserve Power for a kind of Fiery Embrace clone that added energy damage and lowered endurance costs. Then, the set would be more about concealment and offense rather than 'heard em!'. Ah well... -
Quote:I'm going to suggest the opposite. Play what you feel! Even if it's mediocre or bad, it's all about the experience. And if/when the set is changed, you'll suddenly have greater appreciation for the set along with a better grasp on its usage as a whole.Originally Posted by Infini
I had an EM/NIN stalker and an EM/EA brute (both are getting replaced). I wouldn't recommend EM to anyone right now. Just too slow. Just use KM or wait to see what happens down the road with EM.
It used to be a decent and fun single target set, but now it's just meh.
For instance, I have several Energy Aura characters. People constantly say how bad EA (currently) is but it's not really bad at all. But when the new changes come about? I don't know how anything is suppose to ever kill me. Can't say I'm a fan of having a taunt aura, but a buff aura? Eh, my Claws/ brute was fast enough...but my KM/ stalker will suddenly have a faster Concentrated Strike and faster Placate (since I usually never slot that power for extra recharge anyway). -
Quote:I doubt it would have Hibernate in it too. Only the Patron Pools seem to have high-order defensive powers like that. Probably something like:Originally Posted by BrandX
If they make an Ice Epic with Hibernate and Ice Patch, I'm fine it.
Ice Patch
Ice Blast
Hibernate
Ice Rain
Greater Ice Blast
There...nice and simple
Chilblain
Ice Blast
Ice Patch
Benumb (I wish)
Ice Storm -
As the game progresses, powersets are tweeked, added and so forth, we're starting to run out of possibilities besides number differences. For instance, the new Energy Aura will basically be like Ice Armor but there are key differences...like EA has a crashing tier 9 while IA has an only affecting self toggle...one has a +HP heal and the other a +regen/END discount heal...one has a damage aura/debuff aura, the other a self-buff aura and stealth...
Okay, well they're not that alike...but still, there are other examples of sets being rather identical save for visuals and one or two differences.
And as the devs scratch for new and impressive gimmicks to add to their new sets to make them shinier, I have to wonder where you can go with control or buff sets. Eventually, it'll be all about the gimmick because the effects are exactly the same as some other set.
Not saying we're in dire need of *NEW!!111* but just thought I'd throw out the idea of adding/altering some effects to help increase variety.
And now...to the idea...
Phasing
As visited here, we could stand to expand on phasing in this game. Yeah, I can hear the AoE farmers groaning now...
Status: Phased
Stun
Effect: A target tagged with a 'mode' that makes them immune to any effects except from those in the same 'mode'.
Notes: Not sure how the game is coded to work, but I'd go on to explain it as there being 3 'modes'. 'mode0' is the base mode everyone starts in, 'mode1' is what you gain after applying a phase power as well as altering all phase powers to subtract a mode when in this state. 'mode2' is basically an 'affect everything' mode usable by bosses that can attack mezzed foes or pseudo pets that can do the same.
Extras: We'll need more enemies that use phase and more power that cast/grant phase. Swapping Dimension Shift/Black Hole for a version that casts a 'mode2' pseudo pet that will phases anything within its range would be a good start. Putting Singularity in 'mode2' and giving it a ST phase power that's locked into '-1 mode' would give the pet the utility of unphasing any phasers as well as the ability to affect phased targets...it's a very fun prospect that you can do alot with, IMO.
Status: Caged
Effect: An offensive effect that stops anything from affecting a target and the target from affecting anything else.
Notes: This is what we've got now with intangibility. It's not a useless effect by any stretch of the imagination so would be kept in powers like detention field and sonic cages.
Status: Walled
Effect: A defensive effect that stops anything from affecting you or your ally if its castable on a target.
Notes: Again, this is what we've got now with intangibility. Conceptually, both phase and walled should exist. For instance, dimension hoppers should be affected by others with the same ability (phased) but it's also fitting that one can 'cage themselves' to protect themselves from harm. I'd personally use on my Storm corruptor who explains the power as turning her body into mist/fog.
In this category, any powers that give stun protection or resistance work for all effects lumped here.
Status: Stun
Effect: All offensive actions are nullified/suppressed, the target is unable to take action and their ability to move is inhibited.
Notes: Basically, what we have now with stun. You can't act, offensive toggles suppress, you can move but at a very slow pace.
Status: Disorient
Effect: Offensive actions are nullified, the target can still moved but at a slightly slower pace. Movement increases the chance to trigger knockdown and knockback.
Notes: With this, toggles won't suppress but your ability to attack will. I'd imagine it's possible to grant a target a temp power that occasionally 'knockbacks' the target. Since it only occurs during movement, it's possible the target will fly back to the point they started at. Still unsure of the full ramifications of such an effect, but it's a bit more 'offensive' than just Stun.
Status: Shocked
Effect: Offensive and defensive actions are nullified. The target cannot move or act unless acted upon.
Notes: Think of this like a hard Fear power...or a soft hold...except it turns off offensive and defensive toggles. The effect instantly wears off upon being attacked. This is a more powerful effect in that is can revert a targets self-buffs into the 'off' state while completely controlling the target.
Sleep
This one requires a bit of changing. The effects don't all stack in a near category like the Stuns, but they're put in this category because, all the sleep powers we have now will have one of these versions.
Status: Drowsy
Confuse
Effect: A long duration mez where, if the target does not act, they will be reverted to a state where they cannot act. Movement is impaired as is recharge.
Notes: This is a defensive supplemental mez, in that, its effects have a small chance to 'work' at first but have a higher chance of taking effect if the target does not act or move. Think of it like a fear power that can only be suppressed by the victim taking action rather than the victim being acted upon.
Extra: I see this being put in control heavy power pools like Mind Control, Ice Control and the like. Damage itself does not break this effect. It's categorized as 'Sleep' so sets/resistance is what affects this.
Status: Sleep
Effect: See Shocked above
Notes: A major change. Any powers that must conceptually keep Sleeps like they are (like perhaps Mass Hypnosis) would get the 'Shocked' status but called 'Sleep'. I'd imagine, to streamline it, you'd be able to slot the power with Stun or Sleep sets.
Status: Intoxicated
Effect: The victim will cough/puke until attacked. Any form of Knockback will cause the intoxicated victim to lay on the ground for longer periods of time before getting back up.
Notes: I'd imagine, both KB resistance and sleep resistance would lower the duration one stay prone.
Status: Consumed
Effect: Same as Drowsy but shorter duration, without the need for the target to 'not act' for full effect and the mags break upon receiving damage. A mag of 'sleep' having a chance to proc on the target and stack would be the intended design. If one attacks the victim, they're less likely to stack.
Notes: Conceptually, this is what I think Flash Freeze and Salt Crystals basically is, consuming a target in a thin sheet of material. It's basically going to freeze a target in place unless attacked. This effect is enhanceable/defendable by sleep enhancements/resistance/protection.
Extras: It's iffy to replace some sleeps with this, but I imagine them being like the sleep patch except more definitive. If left alone (and not attacked) an affected target will eventually succumb to being consumed but this effect will break if attacked. But they may still be consumed until the full effect expires off the target (just like a target will still be drowsy until the effect wears off).
Status: Confused
Effect: Same as current Confuse powers.
Status: Deflect
Effect: The duration of this effect is short. The victim's range and perception is debuffed and any actions are going to affect the target or be targeted through the opponent.
Notes: Not an actual confuse, but used as a means of 'deflecting' attacks. Since its such a short duration, it's harder to wield but it can be used more often. Basically, if an NPC gets 'Deflected' in the sense of the mez, their perception radius would be shortened, they'll target the nearest foe and shoot them instead. If there are no targets in range, the deflected foe can target through you and shoot a more distant foe you are looking at. If you're targeting the deflected victim, they just can't act.
Status: Bewitched
Effect: The affected target is granted damage and ToHit buffs but only attacks targets that attack you. Under this effect, the target will cast any defensive powers on your allies as well.
Notes: An interesting power if factions could play a part in the game. Not only that, but I could see the effect working as a kind of 'love struck' effect as well.
Status: Placate
Effect: A placated target will not only be unable to attack the caster until the caster strikes them afterwards, but the victim will be under a confused state until it is able to hit something.
Notes: I'd imagine this being too powerful for Stalker Smoke Flash but in Placate (or other ST placate powers) this would help mitigate the whole 'sic my teammate instead' syndrome, if only momentarily. And it'd be an offensive tool as well!
Okay okay, I have more to type but I've already lost anyone who was probably reading this by now. I'm not putting the list down as a 'this is how mez should be' suggestion (although I think my posting style started slipping into that realm by accident) but more of a 'you could add something like that one...or that one' suggestion for current or future sets to add diversity. By no means do I think all of these should be added in but it'd be interesting if it did... -
The ideas being thrown around:
-Toggles, yeah...I heard it was rather difficult to do since you're either coded to affect phased targets (like Hamidon I guess) to keep the toggle going or the instant you toggle phase something, you won't be able to affect it and the toggle turns off. If you're coded to affect phased targets, it's a tag that affects all like powers.
-Phased attacking phased, a must, IMO. And remove (or lower) the NoPhase effect in PvE so that people can actually *USE* the effect. Although if this was to come about, I'd like 2 types of phase effects. 'Phase Shifted' and 'Caged/Walled'. Extend pool powers to grant consealment with a 'phase shift' ability where if phased, only another phaser can attack you/unphase you. 'Caged/Walled' would be *current* PvE phase shift/FF&Sonic cages where *nothing* affect you and you affect nothing. Then, you can make enemy groups that exploit the tactic of phasing you or themselves, you can create powersets that are built around using this tactic, varied encounters and so on.
-Intangible Patches, yes, this is something I suggested myself. I also think it'd work *very* well tactically, as has been explained. Besides that, I think it'd be easier to code since you can just make it so the Pseudo Pet can affect phased and unphased targets while casting a non-stacking effect that will keep a target in one plane or the other. It just makes a battle more exciting thinking of the possibilities...
*you're fighting a Sky Raider*
*he decides to phase*
Oh no you don't!
*lay down Dimension Shift*
*jump back while Sky Raider shifts back*
HA! *cast crush (immobilize)* Gotcha!
*Sky Raider turns off phase* *hold has no effect*
Darn! *jump back into Dimension Shift and fling a car at him*
Quote:Just thinking out loud here...Originally Posted by Oathbound
It really does change what the power does. The fact that you can walk through the mobs is largely irrelevant, it's the Only Affecting Self/Unaffected aspects that are the core of the power.
Applying the above modification to it and it in effect it just becomes a Fear.
And not that I'm suggesting this be the change for the effect but...
What about a reverse-Fear? The unstable matter effect. All of the victim's abilities are diminished (because he's only half there) and any actions taken by the target may scatter its existance, if only for a moment. Basically, every time the target acts, moves or attacks, there's a chance he'll 'fear' himself(doesn't have to be fear...could be a 'hard fear' resembling a hold or a 'sleeping fear' in that if you attack, they resume their normal existance...lots of possibilities).
All in all, I think we *could* use more, varied and mixed mezzes to make the game spicier. It's kind of cool how Electric Control has that nifty debuff/sleep patch...we've got 2 types of fear (Terrorized and Afraid) with different effects, for some reason we have 2 names for one type of mez (stun and disorientation) which could easily be differentiated, there are some holds that are combined with immobilization and some that aren't...hmm, maybe I should make a thread about this... -
Quote:It's a given that they'll remove Ice Patch...and that makes me want to cryOriginally Posted by BrandX
Naaaa...I don't see them getting rid of Frozen Aura. It's to awesome looking of an animation to let it go to waste.
I made my Ice/Ice Tanker specifically to use Frozen Aura, and did, BEFORE it got the damage added to it.
If they decide to spice up Ice Melee (because it probably needs it for the other melees), I'd imagine them either buffing Greater Ice Sword or replacing it with Ice Slash or Ice Sword Circle.
My personal wish is removing both GIS and Frozen Fists, shifting up Frost 1 slot, moving up Freezing Touch sooner and stick in Ice Sword Circle (in place of GIS) and creating a new single target attack with either moderate damage + some control or just good damage. Throw an ice javelin, icy version of stone spears, snowflake saw blade...a lot of cool things one can do with ice that they just didn't do >_>
So that above + Ice patch for Brutes/Scraps and Ice Patch>Assassin's Chill for Stalkers.
Maybe for the Ice Epic Pool, they can stick Ice Patch in there for Stalkers. I don't think there's a rule that says Scrap and Stalk pools have to be identical...in fact, they're not
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Quote:Was it? I don't recall.Originally Posted by Zamuel
What interests me is, wasn't Leo_G's proposed Ice Armor for Stalkers suggestion similar to what we're getting? Regardless, looking forward to this.
Coming back and getting a chance to read up on the info...yeah I had a feeling we'd be keeping Chilling Embrace but usually, my proposed versions of the set had CE dropped and replaced with Ice Slick from the melee set.
Icy Bastion sounds effective, to say the least. Not that strategical but still very useful. I could have suggested a MoG-esque short-duration crashless buff but it'd probably wouldn't have been my favorite replacements.
Of some of the suggestions I made:
-A Hibernate-shadow clone. Basically freezing yourself in a block of ice that draws the foes' attention while you 'slip out the back' hidden. It probably wouldn't phase or even heal that much, but it'd be a quick distraction tool and maybe provide some unsuppressed stealth.
-A moderate recharge non-inhibiting Rest toggle. Kind of like rest (buff your regen/recovery but not by as much as Rest or even Hibernate) but you can move. Combat turns it off (or suppresses it until the max duration is reached). It'd have been a duck-and-(re)cover type of maneuver.
I also remember some suggestions for a debuff toggle or even debuff clicks but felt they probably wouldn't fit properly in an armor set. -
Might i suggest /energy assault on dominator?
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Quote:They're powers people like, but just because you like something doesn't mean it's not harmful to you to, otherwise addicts wouldn't need rehab.Originally Posted by JayboH
Well, I was referencing the list as a set of powers that the majority love the most in those sets, as opposed to the reason most of us are discussing, where we protect the few that enjoy poor powers.
Controllers want Dark Miasma, but Dark Miasma is already too strong for not-control ATs. You're harming controllers that want a dark set by hanging onto the powers you love (not to mention, intra-AT balance is completely out of whack when one considers that set).
Spine players don't want to be crippled in ST damage just because they have AoE. You're harming every Spines player that needs to fight EBs and AVs (heck, even just purple Bosses) by keeping that toggle damage aura. And even the devs have outright admitted they don't look forward to balancing Spines because the backlash from players would be devastating.
Everybody knows Rage is stupid. The only justification they give is 'the rest of the set sux so we keep it'. Well, that's harming *ME* because I can't play a set that hinges on that one power to be great.
Medicine doesn't always taste like candy, you know. -
Quote:Not sure what was funny. I'm damned serious.Originally Posted by JayboH
Haha...
Heck, I have zero Super Strength characters simply because I *KNOW* Rage is ridiculous and I refuse to use something that broken. -
Quote:Right, they should just get a non-TPing straight PBAoE attack that respects the AT's damage mods and can crit.Originally Posted by BrandX
If Stalkers got shields, what makes you think they would of had Shield Charge in it?
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Quote:And mine will use the insect wings/armor parts and have hover on constantly.Originally Posted by WolfSoul
I'm just looking forward to someone making the smallest character possible with the largest weapon possible.
I might have to do it myself, just because. -
Well, if they're breaking the cottage rule, the first thing I want them to do is fix Spines!
Who thought it was a good idea to put a damage toggle in this set!? What? Just because it's attacks are stupid slow, that makes it balanced? Screw that!
*REMOVE* Quills and replace it with Thorn Trops. Fix Barb Swipe so someone will actually *WANT* to take it, make Impale and Spine burst faster and fix all this nonsense with it's plethora of secondary effects. Either it slows, it immobilizes or it does Toxic DoT. Pick *ONE* to spread across the whole set and add one of the other effects to a couple of the other powers.
Next, *REMOVE* Rage from Super Strength and replace it with Build up. No clue who thought perma BU was actually balanced. Then beef up the tier 1/2 powers a bit. That's all.
After that, *FIX* Seeds of Confusion. It recharges entirely too fast for its duration.
Afterwards, why the heck does Ninjas have an Oni!? Get *RID* of that thing, and just make him a ninja that uses fire powers. I'm sure the ridiculous Robotics could stand to get rid of their immortality but not sure what to do with that set.
Dark Miasma? That'll never get proliferated with all that control. *REMOVE* either the ST hold or the cone Fear. Keep the cone Fear's -ToHit, just take away all that fear. And not sure why anyone would think an auto-hit AoE stun + PBAoE rez could fly on a Controller. Get *RID* of it and either turn it into a ST stun + PBAoE rez, or just a ST rez. -
Quote:Sure, fine. Although I could argue with that, I won't. It's a logical assumption and I'll leave it at that.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I find the argument that Energy Blast should never lose its knockback lest it lose its entire secondary effect in the process. Are we saying the knockback in Energy Blast makes the set weaker and actually lowering it all down to 0.67 would make the set too strong? Because that's the only argument (aside from Standard Code Rant) that I can think of.
OK, and the bugging thing. Yes, if you choose to play an Energy Blaster who hasn't turned his knockback into knockdown, you may well run into people who insist you do so, I'd wager a bet that you'll run into just as many people RIGHT NOW who'll either kick you from the team for doing knockback, or otherwise ask you to not use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast. Those who ***** about knockback will still ***** about knockback. Nothing gained, nothing lost on that front. But at least the actual Blaster player will be given a choice.
I'm all for this, if technically feasible, and not just for Energy Blast. I'd pay money to turn off the hideous knockback in powers like Bonfire and turn that into Knockdown ala Ice Patch. I'd also pay money to remove Repel effects, such as those of Hurricane. The more options we have, the better, I say. At least in this regard. That ship has already sailed with Null the Gull's introduction.
But beside that, I still think it caters to 'lazy player syndrome'. Just like you *NEED* stamina instead of learning other methods of endurance management. Or you *NEED* missions in the same zone because you can't be effed with traveling a mile or two. Or you *NEED* not ever be bothered with alert contacts like the inventions guy at the university. It caters to *NEEDING* not learn how to use KB like it was intended or enforcing a tactic of play while ignoring the rest of the game. The same hate people see for AE farmers that ignore the rest of the content is the hate I feel for the old tired herd-&-burn AoE fest the game has become while forgetting/ignoring other interesting and viable tactic built into the game. And you wonder why people get pissy about a lot of the trials? Because the devs have to practically *FORCE* variety down your throat otherwise you'd resort to the same old AOE fest many have turned the rest of the game into.
Knockback is 'hard' and 'disruptive' because you *let* it be. But when you release the whole 'MUST AOE' mentality, how can KB ever be disruptive? -
Quote:Too bad your ideology ignores balance in general.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
ILeo, hyperbole is bad. I'm actually surprised to see you stoop to this.
Just take a step back and look at it this way: Stalkers have undeniably lower survivability than the other melee ATs. The flip side should be that they do undeniably higher damage. This ideology is backed by dev action in the Scrapper vs Brute discussions. Brutes were demonstrably on par or better than scrappers for damage and undeniably better at survival. Fury and damage caps were adjusted to fix this.
It is not unreasonable to expect Stalkers to follow this proportional survivability-damage pattern.
Stalkers are a damage AT just like Scrappers, Doms and Blasters and just because Scrappers have more HP doesn't mean they get to be on the top of the heap. Do you think Blasters outdamage Scrappers? Heck, I bet, shot for shot, Blasters don't even outdo Dominators and doms get *MEZ PROTECTION*!
You can't just scale everything up and up and up because that's power creep. I don't care if you're a fanboi of the AT, bias or a hater, I'm not going to listen to whines for 'MOAR DMG PLZ@@11!'. Screw that.
Maybe it's my control set-up (I use only the keyboard with one hand dedicated to movement all the time), but the reason you need that mobility I was talking about is specifically for AS. So you can move to the target you need to hit, so you can anticipate the targets movements (*NOT* hard) and click that attack in a fashion that won't be interrupted by movement. Either I'm an expert player or you guys simply aren't *TRYING*, but it's elementary to hit a moving target with AS if they're an NPC. Players, on the other hand, may be unpredictable so that's more challenging.Quote:Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
IMHO stalkers are less mobile then the other sets.. they gotta stand still for assassin's strike. Heck, sometimes you fail AS because the target walks away to fast.
I don't have the most Tanker experience (only have 2, a lvl 38 Kin/Inv and a lvl 45 DM/SD) but the mobility you're talking about is 'general'. As a Tank, you're a mobile choke point. You move in, draw the enemy in and *STAY THERE* until the foes are subdued. Yes, you want to move around when more threats or greater threats present themselves, but generally, you don't want to be jumping back toward the squishies, backing off to kill a straggler, and generally leaving a crowd behind because its dangerous for others. That isn't to say you automatically plant your feet and don't move an inch, but you don't need to do the things Blasters, Stalkers or Scrappers need to do when they fight.Quote:Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I agree, of all the melee ATs, Stalkers are the least mobile.
In my opinion, the Tank should be the most mobile in combat. Since the tank role is about controlling aggro, you have to be on your toes making sure you grab all the attention you can.
I could go on and on about the possible scenarios, aggro caps, sets that use enemy numbers to buff you, sets that *impare* movement, etc. but I feel it'd fall on deaf ears here. It's like, what I'm saying is some sort of alien super-advanced gibber-gabber that only makes sense to me. I *know* you people play the game...
You see? You're not 'less' mobile because hide takes long to kick back in, you *need* to be mobile so that you draw less aggro and, when done killing your target(s), you can relax while you tab through the targets to pick out another juicy one. If you sit around in the middle of a group on a team, things will take pot-shots at you. If you fight on the fringes, only those in proximity of your attacks will bother noticing you. If you move around, things might look your way and shoot at you, but most foes will forget you're even there afterwards. Ducking behind something/someone while you stick it to your nearby target will *force* those that are looking at you to *run* to you. They'll probably forget you're there after running across a debuff patch or through someone's taunt aura. And that's if you're just playing defensively.Quote:Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
Put me down as another who treats their stalker as a scrapper with a really good opening attack which might or might not be AS depending on circumstances. I've had no problem getting on teams, keeping up with the scrappers, or acquiring aggro I couldn't handle. Really, it sometimes seems like people are talking about an entirely different AT from the one I'm playing.
I do have to agree that they are less mobile because of how long it takes hide to kick back in and how long it takes AS to animate.
I also don't see any reason why Titan weapons wouldn't work for stalkers. I'd love it if my attacks came faster over time.
That said, I agree with your statement about treating your Stalker like a Scrapper. It's not rocket science, especially not Scrappers. All they do is run up and hit things. A stalker can *easily* do that. Oh, but a Scrapper is more survivable? Well no SH** Sherlock! That HP difference makes a huge difference when you spend millions to IO the toon out. With just SOs, the survival is probably 1 extra hit. The difference is that Scrappers have powers that draw attention to themselves while Stalkers have powers that drive attention away.
I think the 'theme' you're referring to is 'Shield's theme' which is 'a phalanx fighter' or 'a soldier part of a pod'. Stalkers are lone assassin's that take opportunistic strikes, they're not sitting ducks waiting to be shot at. That's basically what Shields is: huddle together, bunker down and tear up anything that gets near. That's not Stalker.Quote:Originally Posted by Jibikao
Shield would be such a great set on Stalker because of Shield Charge. They could have modified just one or two powers to be stalker-friendly but they chose not to. They think having a Shield there means you can't "Hide". I never know they put that much emphasis on "theme". T_T I don't buy that Shield set doesn't work on Stalkers. That's BS. I bet they think Shield Charge is going to be too powerful for Stalkers because Stalker has one more aoe... oh my god, that is soooooooooo going to break the balance of this game.
Now, I have suggested a modified version with 3 new powers added (one being a passive) so it's not like I think Stalkers shouldn't get Shields. I just don't think the current shields is made for them. If they just gave Stalkers Shields as a straight hand-me-down, I'd accept begrudgingly...but I think they could do better.