Leo_G
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Quote:OMG, can we get *someone* to do some math for this? I mean, I can try but I most likely may screw some numbers up...Originally Posted by Zem
This is more true NOW than it will be after the changes. After this change, you will at least be able to say you do better ST damage than that stealthy scrapper. And AS will still be worth using from Hide as an opener at least. Scale 7 damage and Demoralize is still a good deal and if used as the opener the interrupt (and even the animation time) isn't that much an issue.
So let's just take the 'opener with BU window' scenario...so 8 seconds.
A. Assassin's Eclipse (hidden, 3sec animation) > Smite > Midnight Grasp > Siphon Life > Smite (lol no idea if that little chain is even possible or how much recharge)
And B. Midnight Grasp > Smite > Siphon Life > Assassin's Eclipse (unhidden 1sec animation, 3 AF so 100% crit) > Shadow Punch > Smite
Base values, no slotting, not counting for base crit values, only the sure-fire crits, A = around 800 points of damage and a demoralize effect during that chain. B = around 880 points of damage with no demoralize. Even if that last smite in B can't fit in, that's still around 810 dmg, around equal, really.
Demoralize *ISN'T* that valuable to make or break this deal.
My math may be off, but I can feel that, no matter how you cut it, *not* starting with AS will be more overall damage, not to mention it's plain simple. My beef with this is, Stalker's premiere style and tactics involve using Placate and/or pushing out that AS at the start. These changes make that *inferior* to just jumping at the foe and mashing buttons.
Siolfir? Somebody? Can you do some math?
Me going by feel alone, I get the impression that:
-Placate > AS will be a hinderance and a poor use of AS.
-AS from hide will only be, at most, equivalent to just using a high powered ST attack (and most likely inferior to just using an AoE)
-Using BU with hidden AS will not be worth it either.
That's 3 little dibbets of Stalker made obsolete rather than improved upon... -
Quote:I can't say if interruptible attacks are bad design or not because it depends how it's implemented. Interruptible by what? Movement? Damage? Taking other actions? All of the above? Yeah, I think it could have been rethought of when the AT was first implemented...now it seems like it might be a hassle with all the variables, deeming it a situational tactic. Problem then comes in if that situational tactic pays off enough.Originally Posted by Jibikao
I honestly believe Placate + Interruptable Attack is simply unreliable. It doesn't matter it's 1s or 0.5s activation time. As long as you have interruption, it's a questionable attack.
What if Placate + Assassin is a bad design to begin with? How do you elaborate from a "bad" design?
And I am telling you that Placate + Assassin Strike has its use. It's a use that may not be popular but Placate + AoE is still viable.
What if the dev simply don't want us to take one extra step to get that critical ST damage? Just look at how many people complain about Placate. Does Placate "define" what Stalker does? Or it's Assassin Strike? Or it's "burst" damage?
Lol, if I were way back at the drawing board, I'd have made interruptible attacks something else entirely. Just pie-in-the-sky ideas, powers like Assassin's Strike and Snipes wouldn't be actual powers, but 'skills' one can pick up. What you'd do with those skills is then be able to 'right click', bring up an option to 'Assassinate' or 'Snipe' the target and it'd bring up a loading bar as if you'd click a mission objective. It'd load quickly depending what foe you clicked on (and you can click and load multiple foes at a time!). When it reached 100% you can then initiate one of your other attacks and get extra effects. If you interrupt it (only by taking action or moving, not being hit) you might still get extra dmg but not all the extra effects.
The extra effects would have been temp powers granted to the target that are 'pre loaded' on the mob as existing powers only activatable by such means. So you'd be able to balance the effect of an Assassination or Snipe attack *per mob*, meaning if you want a certain % of extra dmg, code it to the mob. Or a special regen debuff, code it to that mob. Or stop it from using a certain power, code it to that mob.
Lol you don't want me to develop an MMO. It'd be too convoluted
You're not a native English speaker, Jib? I'd have never guessed otherwise. You're pretty goodQuote:Originally Posted by Jibikao
My English isn't good enough so I won't start the thread. Feel free to list out what you think makes Stalker unique and how effective that adds to gameplay. We Stalker fans better come up a list soon before they finalize the changes.
I'd have just cranked up the crit value of ST attacks per teammate on the team, got rid of the +crit aura and keep them at 10% base crit chance, and stuck the new AS speed change in but reversed (1sec uninterruptible in hide, interruptible unhidden but flat 50% crit chance). Give all AoEs 100% crit chance from hide. No Assassin's Focus. So, on a full team of 8, ST crits would be very strong, it values placate *heavily* (since you only have base 10% now), makes initial AS attacks more usable and AoE burst is another specialty.Quote:Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Sorry but I hated that reverse fury idea. People do not want to be good some of the time or even most of the time. They want to be good all the time. Just look at what doms with thru. They eventually got buffed to have dominations damage on all the time without perma dom. The reverse fury is going to be like that all over again. I say crank the crit damage up to 2.5 and the crit rate to look 40% starting out then add in the team buff.
But again, pie-in-the-sky... -
Quote:It does 'take away' what we have now, in a relative sense. If what we have now is made so inferior and still difficult to use compared to new mechanisms added, you might as well throw what you had away.Originally Posted by Jibikao
Exactly. I think at the end of the day, the dev just think the current "placate" and "hide" and "re-hide" mechanisms are just too unreliable. They want Stalkers to deal "massive" ST damage that is not interruptable. Focus counter is there so Stalker doesn't go too crazy on critical damage.
What the buff will do doesn't take away what we have now. You can still use Placate + AS but it may seem less effective because uninterruptable AS seems very effective! Using Placate still has an advantage because you can stop the foe from attacking you for a little while, or you can Placate one and attack another (just like Hold One, Attack Another strategy).
I'm sort of with Smily Joe, I'm really peeved at us right now.
Yeah, okay, you like the idea of Assassin's Focus, what it'll do to Stalker's ST DPS and what now. Now *WHY* can we not at least try to kind of hint at entertaining the notion of just keeping what Stalkers do now? No, I'm not saying keep Stalkers in the state they're in, but at *LEAST* don't make current Stalker form obsolete. It's worse than what they did with old defiance (I liked old defiance, by the way) but at least they *REMOVED* old defiance so it's not just a vestigial option that might as well not be there.
[EDIT]And for the bolded part. Do you honestly believe that? Are you honestly telling me you will seek out using Placate > AS with the new changes? How many others do you think will bother? I honestly want to know because I think you're lying. People don't even want to use Placate > AS *RIGHT NOW*, going so far as to skip the powers completely! And you're telling me people will bother with it once you can get AS down to 1sec with no chance of interrupt?
Complete and utter Bullsh*t is what I say to that.
That's the very reason I tend not to think of Stalkers as the 'Stealth AT', because stealth is available to everyone (and mixed into powersets). I wonder if I'm talking to myself or do people just think my notions are retarded? Stalkers are the 'Ambush AT' because they get 'bonuses' for striking an unwitting enemy. Stealth has nothing to do with it, frankly.Quote:Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Stalkers are supposed to be the "stealth" archetype, or so I thought. The one archetype with true stealth (outside of illusion controllers) that can only be seen by things that bypass that stealth. (which I still don't think is fair.) -
Quote:Yes, your proposal would require 4 different animations for AS which is more work than I'd bother with for every melee set the AT gets.Originally Posted by Jibikao
Like this?
Hidden:
- 1s animation time, interruptable
- Cause Demoralize
Unhidden without Focus:
- 3s animation, interruptable
- Does not cause Demoralize
Unhidden with Focus:
- Focus 1: Reduce 0.5 animation + 33% critical chance + Interruptable
- Focus 2: Reduce 1s animation + 66% critical chance + Interruptable
- Focus 3: Reduce 2s animation (down to 1s casting) + 99% critical chance + Uninterruptable
- Does not cause Demoralize but since your AS is down to 1s, you can use Placate + AS (hopefully Placate's casting time is down to 1s or less as well)
Key Point:
- Assassin Strike critical damage remains 6x bonus? We don't have to worry about Assassin Strike hidden and unhidden damage because with Focus, we should be able to fire off a real Assassin Strike with critical bonus damage.
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This idea is not bad because one thing that annoys me when I am on a very good team is that setting up an AS takes too long to the point that I just either 1. throw an aoe out with BU or just simply use my heavy hitter like Eagle Claw. If hidden AS only has 1s, then I can at least eliminate somebody quick to start the fight and then gradually build up focus to release another AS fast.
I wonder which idea will take longer to code? Synapse or this? Do they need to do something special if a power has different casting time? Because with this idea, the AS will need 4 different animations? 3s, 2.5s, 2s and 1s?
This is why I'd propose something a bit more streamlined.
Hidden:
-Assassin's Strike is *uninterruptible* 1sec animation.
-Full Assassination crit value
-Demoralize
Unhidden:
-Assassin's Strike is *interruptible* and 3sec animation (2sec interruptible)
-Assassin's Focus
--lvl 1 = +6% crit bonus to all attacks, +interrupt reduction buff(?%, enough to make using it in combat decently reliable)
--lvl 2&3 = +6% crit bonus to all attacks, +33% crit bonus to Assassin's Strike
--lvl 4 = +6% crit bonus to all attacks, +33% crit bonus to Assassin's Strike, +25% chance of Assassin's Strike 1sec animation
--lvl 5 = +6% crit bonus to all attacks, +75%% chance of Assassin's Strike 1 sec animation
Placate:
-Spends 1 lvl of Assassin's Focus
-Assassin's Strike will cost 0 lvls of Focus for 10sec
Ultimately, this'd replace the team crit bonus so you'd simply be able to use Assassin's Focus to gain a similar +crit chance. Using Assassin's Strike would spend all your focus, dumping all your +crit for a strong quick/reliable AS mid combat or you can choose to wait, preserve your focus by using Placate and keep the buff lvl high. Of course, this is all relying on AF lasting somewhere like 20sec per buff and attacks being able to refresh it so it'd be easy to keep 4-5 lvls.
Another additional change I'd propose is a funny one...make Build up inherent. Rename the power 'Ambush' or 'Bum Rush' or something, then just add in the powers that were removed for this power. So sets like Katana/BS, Spines, Axe, MA, EM and what not would basically get the ability to 2x BU for bigger burst dmg or spread the buff for more consistent DPS, sets like DB, Claws, Kinetic Melee, DM and the like would get their on-hit buffs and could stack it for greater effect or whatever and the future Staff Melee can have its stances without needing to make a huge fuss about how to shoehorn BU.
This, of course, makes perfect sense only if you view Stalkers as an ambush AT. Be it ST or AoE, a Stalker is meant to get the drop on their foes and that's why Stalkers get BU in the first place...but at the cost of consistency during combat.
Depends on what attack you use. Did you use a long activating attack to initiate that hidden state? Then that could be clunky in, you'd have to specifically time this change to happen *after* the attack and not during at all otherwise it'd could be wasted. Did you use your better attack to initiate this hidden state? So my Katana character just split a guy with Soaring Dragon and *look* I'm hidden again! Now what? I just used my best, ST attack...I can see it as being an extra step in those circumstances but you may also be in a situation where you're under constant attack. On a resist based Stalker, having one of your attacks instantly trigger hide might be as good as useless as you'd be knocked right out of it (because Hide gives you AoE defense, not ST melee/ranged).Quote:Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Unfair ambush mechanics aside, here's what I don't get:
Why do players have such an aversion to using hide to get criticals? I think it was Jibikao who mentioned up-thread about not having to go through the extra step of going into hide to get a critical, and several have made the point about auto-hit effects knocking you out of hide.
But if you're just scrapping it out anyway there IS no extra step - the hidden status comes on and your next attack is a critical. As far as you're concerned there is no functional offensive difference between the two. And if you're scrapping it out in an auto-hit situation, then the odds are better than good that your next attack will be initiated before the autohit's damage tick can register so again virtually no offensive difference.
Depends. Placate only activates Hidden status, it doesn't unsuppress hide so you don't get any additional defense. This may or may not be the case for your idea but even if you proposed it to unsuppress Hide, there's still the case of the aura powers which require suppressing. I'd forsee lots of instances where, sometimes it suppresses and *then* puts you in hide but occasionally being out of sync and screwing the whole thing up.Quote:However, if assassin's focus achieved criticals through a hidden state, then maybe I might use that to a defensive advantage. Remember, when you're hidden you have fantastic AoE defense, and even something like 5% ranged and melee defense. Throw in combat jumping and/or a purple and you're likely to avoid some of that aggro while you escape. Hell, even if you are scrapping it out against impossible odds you've got a little extra defense to help you get a green down.
I agree with you. Fixing Stalkers by adding a Defiance/Fury like mechanic to the AT may help but I'd always try to advocate something else more unique and thematic. But again, I was always told to just be quiet and accept the changes. Do people still say that? Don't you want to at least *try* to keep within the theme and tactics of the AT?Quote:And just dropping you to hidden status might not be the best answer. My point is this: shouldn't developer thinking at least start with stalker mechanics instead of looking immediately to what is clearly a scrapper mechanic to fix stalkers? And why are we as players so averse to that thinking? Do we really all want to play scrappers and brutes?
Lately it seems that Hawk and Synapse have insisted on fixing the archetypes they're looking at by applying what seems to be working on other archetypes, and players by and large have been happy with that; so long as their melee scrapper-like or brute-like can be called something else at character selection we seem quite content to pretend that the gameplay isn't just like scrappers or brutes.
The result has been predictably generic. -
Quote:Just to interject, you also have holds/ranged attacks in APP/PPP pools, teleportation and Taunt/Contront(Placate) from your primary and Challenge/Provoke from presence. These don't directly mitigate the mez but it can help one get around needing to the same way any AT without mez protection would. Then there was the fact that Strength of Will had immobilize protection and did not crash so you could always use that...Originally Posted by Siolfir
Which without IOs is 3 powers from the exact same power pool that the cure to all your immobilize issues come from or else a complete reroll of the character to pick different sets. But the answer there is "so take Acrobatics". I just find it a bit hypocritical that saying "so take Combat Jumping" is such a burden to those who feel threatened by immobilize. I've never been in a situation where I died because of immob; I have died due to being unable to react because of a chained KB.
When Willpower was first being tested, I was all for having a hole in its mez protection primarily because it was unique and would require *thinking* to overcome (and I would have sworn the set had high 'resistance' to every mez on top of premiere 'protection' as well, making any mezzes last a shorter time).
Frankly, every armor set should have a hole. It was a mistake making every armor immune to practically any mez. Immobilize was a laughable hole to overcome anyway (if it really bothered you, you could just pick up Combat Jumping and shut up) which is why I didn't really cry about it when the hole was covered over.
As for the ToHit debuff resist idea in DA, I have to admit DA feels a heck of a lot more hindered by such debuffs compared to other sets. FA/Elec Armor/EA can still heal when debuffed, Invul/WP still protect you fully and SR/Regen simply don't care. You lose quite a bit of your passive mitigation during ToHit debuffs on a DA (those mez auras) that no other Armor set (well, Stalker EA now...but Energy Drain is and has always been Auto-hit so it balances) has to worry about.
It'd be thematic for DA to have exotic debuff resists (not immunity though) such as ToHit debuff...I think SR could do with some buffing in that department too as it wouldn't have a direct increase to the set's mitigation levels but instead add utility (maybe just improve the Slow Resists). Regen some -Rech resist. So on and so forth...
But then I'd probably go back and put holes in the sets as well... -
Personally, I think it has more AoE dmg due to simply having more *direct* damaging attacks...
On Elec melee, Chain Induction is a ST attack that jumps to other targets but those jumps cannot crit. Thunderstrike, while the AoE portion can crit, it's only a portion of the actual damage the attack does (the energy part) while the bulk of the damage is the smashing part (which is ST). Jacobs Ladder does some nice direct damage but only in a 50 degree 7ft cone. Then there's Lightning Rod which is great for burst damage but, again, it's not a direct attack and therefore cannot critical and recharges too slow to be 'chained'. It's still a great set though, and a nice balance of AoE and ST.
Spines will probably do more AoE because all its attacks are direct. Spine Burst is a 15ft PBAoE vs Thunderstrike's 7ft and will do less damage to 1 target for doing more damage to more foes. Ripper is a wider cone and does more dmg than Elec's equivalent and Throw Spines, while it does less burst dmg than LR, it can critical hit and recharges much faster. This, in my mind, equates to greater AoE than Elec.
However, the issue probably seen by Stalker players is speed. Nearly all Spines' powers are *slow animating*, with the exception being Throw Spines and Lunge. For ST, the only viable attacks to kill a target are Lunge, Impale, Ripper and Throw Spines and Impale is slow, Throw Spines is weak for a ST attack and Ripper...is nice but still on the slow side.
However again, if the new changes to Stalkers really make AS into a fast animating ST attack when unhidden, Spines will probably get the most from that change. -
Quote:You say that as if that was the design goal of Assassin's Focus.Originally Posted by Redlynne
It's a gimmick to make Stalkers "not be Stalkers" and turn them into Scrappers. And like you said, it's to ensure that Hide is even less relevant to the 99% of game content that is Combat than it has been up until now.
I'm hoping, if enough is said about the effects of AF on the AT, maybe the idea can be revised some before or during beta.
When the idea was first posted by Synapse, I suggested reversing the new AS, making it a 1sec activation when hidden and the regular interruptible animation when unhidden. Assassin's Focus can help AS over the course of an encounter by reducing/eliminating the interrupt time while improving its critical hit chance. Heck, maybe give it a chance to animate in 1 sec while unhidden...but the change would still make Placate > AS viable as a means of burst dmg as well as make demoralize more accessable.
I'm still not sure how much that would change the AT's damage. Players see, on the outside, that gaining a 1sec superior dmg attack after a few hits as really good, and it is...but so would my idea. It might even do, ultimately, more ST dmg than what the devs propose with the stipulation that it requires some of the playstyle we currently incorporate in playing Stalkers vs adopting a full-on Scrapper playstyle. -
Quote:Apparently it is. Because everything in Ice Melee leads up to Frozen Aura, a PBAoE cold dmg attack that also sleeps minions, which would be positively 'Stalker-ish' in every definition of the word.Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
I guess this is where we diverge then. Nothing in the AT shows that PBAoEs should be a part of stalker life.
'Stalker life' really has nothing to do with what a set does, otherwise each melee set would have been altered to accommodate for their AT. That has never been the case so your perspective fails. It fails to fit within the realm of usefulness of this game. It fails to leave concept open ended for player themes. It fails to compromise with team tactics. It fails by clutching to an idealized image of what stalkers once were which never actually existed. And it fails because the only path to your perspective is through impossible means of destroying the game and starting all over for the sake of *one* AT.
First of all, I don't think PBAoEs are anymore geared to 'Scrappers' than they are to any AT that wishes to dispatch foes quickly. You seem to have it engrained in your brain that Stalkers must be some sort of katana wielding ninja that can only reliably impale one foe at a time and that area attacks are simply brute strength and not precise. Well, it takes more precision to hit lots of foes in their weak points at once than it is to aim at one weak point at a time.Quote:In fact, most of the PBAoEs were stripped from power sets. Furthermore, this new resurgence of PBAoEs in stalker power sets shows desperation on the part of the devs to grant legitimacy to stalkers by turning them into scrapper clones.
That said, I made clear in another post (perhaps in the other thread) that stalkers still have room for AoEs in my theme. They just have to trade in single target damage for that.
And nothing so far has given me the impression that AoE is in your theme. If it were, I don't know why you're bringing up this stuff about AoEs = Scrapper Clone. Because that equation isn't balanced at all. -
Quote:Dunno about you, but that sounds incredibly boring.Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Precision application of single target damage with low aggro. Evidence: Hide and controlled crits allow precision; our AoEs were by and large removed in favor of AS; and we have Placate and a low threat modifier to minimize aggro.
What sets are we suppose to use with that then? Because I want ice wielding Stalkers which will most likely come with a mass PBAoE ice attack...
Harp all you want, but I don't want your theme infringing on mine, which is ambush tactics. Rush the enemy, blind side them and while they're still recovering from the shock, pick them apart with your regular combat powers.
I'm just saying, your concept seems to shoehorn the AT and strips any possibility of proliferation. My theme can accommodate 'precision' and 'power' and leaves the AT open for many possible sets to be proliferated. -
Quote:Really? That was your point?Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
My point throughout this entire thread is that AoE is all that matters in this game. Give single target a way to shine, then buff the hell out of stalkers in single target. Voila, fixed stalkers.
Well, yeah, the dev's idea to improve Stalker's ST dmg certainly does that, and if there were some change to make bosses scale a bit harder on teams then that'd give a way for ST dmg to shine...
But still, I've got the agenda of keeping the Stalker's style intact while improving them. That's been *my* point.
As for making bosses harder, you can give them some kind of 'Boss' ability that buffs their offense and defense when their minions are killed. That might emphasize the need to defeat (or weaken) the boss before mass killing all his minions. Do the same for EBs but focus on improving their survivability (thinking regen)...just a though. -
Quote:Not when you're damage capped. Assault and Assault-like buffs affect entire leagues now. It's quite possible for a Brute to reach the damage cap with only a fraction of Fury. The rest of the fury? I guess if your damage gets debuffed...Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Also, I think you're using hyperbole or are being intentionally disingenuous if you're saying that Fury doesn't help brutes 99.9% of the time, because it most certainly does.
Proliferation is the answer.Quote:Indeed. I no longer seek to compare stalkers to scrappers. Scrappers themselves hold a tenuous role at best in team environments. However, they do have a role, and that role exists for the entire game. Scrappers do not suddenly become super-important in rare encounters like they would under Redlynn's proposal. They do, however, remain mildly important in essentially every encounter. That's what I want from stalkers.
Agree with you there...Quote:Other AT's should be able to fight bosses, no doubt about it. But a) bosses should be powerful enough to cause a team-wide threat,
Certainly. Hoping the new addition the devs propose helps this.Quote:b) stalkers should be one of the many tools used to dispatch this team-wide threat,
I do not agree with this entirely. If you specialize the AT's function to be very effective vs bosses in all circumstances (no matter the set or build) then you limit any other application. So this Stalker can now dispatch bosses with extreme ferocity...what does it sacrifice for this? If you say AoE then congratulations, you are requesting Titan Weapons, Fire Melee, Ice Melee, War Mace/Axe, Fiery Aura and what have you to be *BUTCHERED* in their ability to deal with minions and/or nerf sets like Dual Blades, Electric Melee, Spines and Kinetic Melee which can currently dispatch minions just fine.Quote:and c) stalkers should be very effective at doing just that.
Either that or hamstring sets like Regen, Willpower, Ice Armor and the like by even lower HP caps (and in the process, favor defensive sets...I still am not a fan of Ninjutsu since you left, btw).
So, what's it gonna be? -
Well, you're certainly not going to get the primary content made more difficult...well, maybe. But that still doesn't prove much that it is what Stalkers need...the game has evolved. If bosses become too hard, people just turn them off, lower their difficulty and so on.
But you seem to be focusing on Single Target Damage as the problem. Last I checked, Stalkers aren't limited to only ST.
It's rather...what's the word I'm thinking of....I dunno, but it's, like...cramped or something...to think that Scrappers (and Brutes and whomever else) should only be good at fighting minions while Stalkers should only be good at fighting bosses. I'd much prefer Dark Melee, Martial Arts, Energy Melee and the like be good at dealing with bosses and Electric Melee, Fire Melee, Titan Weapons and the like be good at dealing with minions. The AT should simply affect *how* that is carried out. Stalkers simply need flexibility in that area.
But I do agree with you that Stalkers and Scrappers should be kept separate in approach. That is what I've been saying from the beginning *WAAAAY* when proliferation was first talked about. I always thought the melee sets should be completely different from AT to AT and not rely solely on AT mods. Now? You have to rely on AT mods and whatever gimmick the AT has to really differentiate the ATs.
So I was right in that regard. When I proposed those gimmicky ideas to help make Stalkers great, it was because the actual sets are geared to ATs like Scrapper and Brutes so *something* is needed to make the AT something other than another flavor of scrapper.
However, the devs do not seem aware what their gimmick idea actually does to the Stalker AT's style. To state it plainly, it makes Stalkers exactly like Scrappers. For proof, just go make a Street Justice Stalker and Scrapper and see how differently it plays... -
I have to agree with A_C, your counter proposal is just as, if not more, gimmicky than what the devs suggest. The idea they put forth is, Assassin's Focus potenizes AS when unhidden but covers over the problem while your idea just covers over the problem.
That is a problem (speaking of the interrupt redux you proposed, specifically).
As for the other stuff A_C said, jaded much?
Honestly, your cannot expect the world when given a handout. Defiance doesn't help Blasters 99.9% of the time. Critical Hits do not help a Scrapper 99.9% of the time. Fury doesn't help Brute 99.9% of the time. Why in the *HELL* would you expect *ANYTHING* added or enhanced on the Stalker AT to be some super boon 99.9% of the time!?
The best you should possibly expect is to *NOT* be made useless or have abilities compromised in 99.9% of situations and use them to their fullest.
Roping in some perspective of the ATs, Scrappers are *NOT* the bees knees for everything. They're *GREAT* at hitting stuff alot and that's it. You'd be a fool to expect anything more from the Stalker AT. -
Quote:You contradict yourself, sir.Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Nothing I have seen in this thread leads me to believe a simple, tangible fix to stalkers will fix the underlying problems. Stalkers have problems because they're not needed, not because they're not good at what they do. Of course, they're not good at what they do, so I guess once there's a role for single target damage, then we can discuss triangle-annihilation and damage modifiers and scaling AS.
Is it because you were wrong and I was right? (about the gimmicks, at least)
But you say Stalker's have problems because they are not needed. If Stalkers could hinder a strong target's ability to resist mezzes, that enables *everyone*, including the Stalker. Stacking stuns and holds is something everyone can do, you know.
I'm thinking you're being intentionally pessimistic to aim for shock or sympathy. But you must be seriously out of perspective. It's not like Scrappers can do anything much greater than a Stalker if the changes the devs propose come to pass.
Come proliferation and there really won't be much difference between Scrappers and Stalkers... -
Then can we get a "Two Handed Defense" set? I dunno, call it "Weapon Guard" or some such only usable by 2 handed powersets? Titan Weapons, Katana, Dual Blades, Claws, Spines and I guess Stone Melee (it had to have new animations made for its mallet powers).
-
It's an interesting idea, I'd have to agree. Wonder if anyone else thought of such an idea? I'm pretty sure there were a lot of suggestions to add debuffs to AS...giving the attack the ability to turn off the purple triangles is something I'm curious if it's possible.
We have the tech to cancel buffs?
Wonder what the ramifications of such a change would have.
But I would presume this would be *in addition to* making the AT a top contender for ST damage? -
I'd suggest swapping to a Dual Blades/Fire Brute. It's quite bad-A.
The white hot searing flames of Justice contrast well with the black burning fire of Judgement. You can go either way. My Brute, Nickel-Mage, often switches between swathing through hoards of sinners using Judgement and cleansing their souls of impurity using Justice or allowing the heat of their sins burn them to ashes while subduing the wicked with luminous blades of absolving fire.
In other words, color your Burn dark and your blades white or vice versa and your character's body vanishes in the flame but you can still see the swords slashing about.
The Vanguard Blades are your best bet but Dual Blades gets 3 versions, the Katana glowie blade, the Broadsword straight glowie blade and their own pure energy glowie blade. Burn helps to 'catch your swords on fire'... -
Quote:Nice that you agree with A_C and all(lol how many times have you said that now?) but again, this has been tried.Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I actualy know very little about programming other than a course a very long time ago. I am pretty decent at college level mathematics and logic however. Angry Citizen defined the problem very well. A great first step. I think the Devs are trying to "Overthink" the math on the solution, based on what you have said. Leave most of AS alone. Just don't touch it. The power is not broken vs Lt and minions, and is probably okay to be left as is for Bosses for that matter. But we might as well include a performance increase against Bosses. When a Stalker does BU and AS against a Boss in hide, it should drop the fool. period. Except when it misses of course, sad panda. It seriously needs something against EBs and AVs. I do not know what formulas they were working with on Beta.
The other issue of difficulty settings makes this more complicated than you think. Currently you can choose to face Bosses, EBs or AVs as a mission setting and if you choose to downgrade them, it affects their rank for some mobs but not all. In other words, the system currently borks who's a boss, EB or AV so trying to use that as a meter stick for your AS will not work.
Quote:PS, i am really disinterested in the whole discussion. In my 4 1/2 years in the city I have had maybe 12 stalkers created. one got to 32, one got to 26. I have 2 stalkers currently. One is 6th, the other is 1st, and mostly there to hold a name on a server. I honestly dont care if they buff stalkers to the moon, leave them alone, or shoot them in the foot. Just saying from a game balance perspective of watching them for 4 1/2 years they look like they could use a "trick". I could be very wrong. Thats my idea, thats about as much explanation as I have. GL. 
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Quote:It was proposed by Angry_Citizen and tested on beta. The devs ended up scrapping that and added to Stalker's base +HP, gave them inherent 10% criticals vs 20% criticals on held/slept foes and demoralize on hidden Assassin's Strike.Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
When was adding a damage scalar for AS vs. Bosses, EBs and AVs tried before? Honestly I am curious.
It certainly wouldn't take a few hours of coding because the testing required would be *daunting*. For one, scaled up EBs and AVs were screwing with the numbers. The amount of % dmg AS did was adjusted several times (some of it enhanceable by damage enhancements and not). The results were AS not being able to kill minions or Lts, being marginally better vs bosses, and Stalkers capable of soloing GMs in a matter of minutes.
Personally, I'm indifferent about the idea. I was always arguing with A_C about ideas to improve Stalkers and Assassin's Strike. But he's the one who had one of his ideas tested and I did not. I'd certainly had accepted the way Stalkers turned out with his idea but it was still ultimately deemed nonfunctional. It may have been possible, with more testing, it could have worked... -
Quote:You could always go the "and/or" route and add the snipe to some of the other pools but block out the choice of another power.Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am all for improving Snipes but your idea only works for 4 out of 8 Epic/Patron sets. What about Epic sets that don't have Snipes?
Or the devs can simply add snipes to any new epics that come along and leave the sets the way they are.
The way I see it, snipes aren't a necessity but a 'luxury' (and I say that loosely). Not every blast set has a snipe either, that's just thematic. But Stalkers are the only AT that can choose to pick up a snipe outside of primary and secondary sets (well, Scrappers too...and I guess Blasters but that's more a snipe-nuke). We could just chalk it up to choice. You can either choose another AS maneuver to use strategically or just skip it. Just like AS is a choice.
And the ATIO for Stalker may end up being a hinderance.Quote:And I also agree that "hidden" AS needs to be more attractive. It is hard because the "slowness, interruptable" AS is exactly the reason why many people hate. I know I am one of them.
This was my stance all along as i learned more about the changes. It's not entirely bad though. You most likely will be better off not worrying about using hidden AS or only using placate with AoEs that hit 5+ targets. Rush in, use your best attack then scrap, using AS for the occasional burst crit mid-combat will ultimately be the best strategy.Quote:The way I see it is this:
1. BU + Hidden AS still has an advantage in a way that you can take out an enemy before it hits you and you get Demoralize. This advantage gradually fades away when you team but at least there is still an advantage. Maybe they can improve Demoralize somehow. Make the fear duration longer?
2. They need to make Placate more attractive. Placate + AS will be pretty sucky. Placate + AoE is more attractive but we already have this now. They need to speed up Placate.
Where my argument comes in is...this is nothing like what Stalker is. In fact, it throws away everything that was considered 'Stalker' and I'm trying to do *something* about it. That is to say, you can still *use* what you used to use but you're just gimping yourself for flavor and style. I honestly don't want to feel like I'm gimping myself for style...hell, I never felt I was gimping myself for style by choosing Stalker over Brute/Scrapper in the first place, I'll be damned if I should feel that way for actually doing what Stalkers do. -
Quote:Lol is that anecdote suppose to prove something? Because I've joined similar teams where the leaders were Controllers, Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers and the like. The team was struggling? Ever think the team was just not up to snuff? That the leader was some noob stalker, that must mean Stalkers are T3h suxxor?Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Seriously, i was on a team last night that was dialed up too hard. People were struggling. I had just joined. I look at the leader, it's a Stalker. i couldn't help myself. in my mind I am thinking "theres a Stalker that cant level themselves so they are getting 7 of us like an MMs pet to level them." It's sad, but after years in the cities I just think of Stalkers as 2nd class supers. This fix is like giving them a bus pass. They need a new car dude.
First of all, your idea was tried before. You'd have to make a case (and research) to get the devs to try the idea again.Quote:Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
and the flames begin. sigh.
Alright I'll give it a shot. Yes, from my description all you would need to do is code in an attack on Stalker in full Hide that provides x% against bosses, x% against EBs, and x% against AVs, with an unresistable stun, even when purp triangles are up. Sure, they would shake it off in a second (should be a very short stun) but thats just the biz.
So, that is my serious reply.
You want to explain why that is not a few hours coding, since it is just altering one power in 12 sets?
Secondly, besides taking down the rare EB or AV at the end of a mission, this does nothing for the AT everywhere else.
Go back to the drawing board. -
Just had a thought about the new Assassin's Focus change and what it may entail for the standard course of a Stalker's strategy.
First of all, I still don't agree with the AS being slower while hidden and 1sec activation while unhidden. It just underminds the purpose of using AS in the first place. And you can point out the increased damage and demoralize all you want, that doesn't change a thing. Are *YOU* going to be using AS the majority of the time when starting a fight after the change? Or are you going to use a sure-fire hard hitter like Soaring Dragon, Eagle's Claw, Midnight Grasp, etc (or an AoE, for that matter) and just use AS afterwards for *more* combined damage? And how often do you plan to try using AS with Placate? Some of the times? Rarely? Never?
But that's beside the point, I suppose. My point comes in with adding another possible branch to the tactics you can choose...kind of replacing Hidden AS but not entirely...
So Snipes. They come late in the game but probably around the time all that junk that starts making AS at the start of combat *REALLY* shaky. So the idea is for the snipes to be AS's replacement late game...
-First of all, the cast times of the snipes needs to be brought down to nearly regular snipe cast times. Normal snipes are around 4 sec while Stalker snipes are like 7 sec. I propose bringing Stalker snipes down to 4.5 sec.
-Secondly, while hidden, a snipe would animate *faster* at around 2.5 sec and be uninterruptible. While unhidden, a snipe would animate it's full cast time and be interruptible.
-Thirdly, when a snipe crits, it'll only be for 2x current damage. Assassin's Focus, however, is spent when a snipe is used and gives a heightened chance to 'Assassin's Scope' a target for around 90% of what a hidden AS would do. This will also carry the same demoralize effect.
What this does...
1. Gives you an Assassin move to use at the start of battle that isn't 'gimp'. You can quickly crit a target at range without being interrupted.
2. Gives you something to cast demoralize with that isn't handicapping you mid combat but for a portion less damage.
3. Gives you something to use with Placate that doesn't bite in comparison. Vs not using placate at all, now you can use it for a sure-fire demoralize after you get a few hits in during a fight.
Personally, I think it'd be a refreshing addition to the AT that doesn't actually add any more gimmicks (besides what we have and what they're giving us). One can use a ranged attack > a hold > a ranged AoE > placate > snipe to provide long range support if close combat isn't the best option. And honestly, it sounds fun and not bassakwards like what we'll be getting. -
Before you go worrying about paring your Shields with two handed weapons, you need to be worried about finally giving Shields to Stalkers.
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Well, I've already settled with the idea of the attack vector, AoE or ST, should be fundamentally determined by the set, not the AT. That isn't to say that Stalkers will be even on AoE or that their ability to use AS (before or mid combat) doesn't imply that ST is the main appeal of the AT. I'm simply saying that Stalkers can do AoE dmg and some Brutes/Scrappers can do anemic AoE dmg.
That ST dmg isn't valued or that AoE is overvalued shouldn't be the subject of your bile but the equality of the capabilities of each AT as a whole should be balanced. The game is what it is and has been, there's really no changing that and you're shortsighted if you're only now coming to terms with this.
If anything, you should probably be angry that the 'stealth AT' theme has held back anything to help Stalkers for so long only to be thrown aside so far after the AT was released. It still does piss me off that sets like Titan Weapons is said to not be thematic, Shield Defense was stated to not be mechanically functional for them...and then the devs release an update that basically allows *any* Stalker to toss away Placate, Hide, needing BU and suchandsoforth and simply be Scrappers with an angle for ST crits.
Either the devs could have tossed away that theme limitation (like they're basically going to do) a long time ago so I could be Shield Charging with my Stalkers or they could cut the damned double standards and *GIVE THIS STUFF TO ME NOW!!*. But they aren't. They're holding onto that 'stealth AT' theme while shoving an update that says "shove that stealth crap and SCRAP" and I still get told to just ST*U and accept my buff like a good little wolfie...
Well, the other option besides those is add some cool functionality that enforces the whole 'stealth AT' schtick like the old scaling AS deal or hell, even my modified 'Ambush AS' idea that just spins their proposed change....But lol again I'm told to just shut my mouth. So what the hell, bring on the Strappalker goodness.
How's that for a rant, eh AC?
Dunno who's idea this new Assassin's Focus was based on but maybe we should meet him in a dark alley. I'll get my knuckle dusters and my rope. I'd try to sneak up on him but it'd be faster not to hide... -
Quote:Ho ho ho haOriginally Posted by Zombie Man
Start a new thread with that as the title.
Hehe