KnightofKhonsu

No, it means it's broken in my book.

Say no more. Its easy to assume one thing, especially on a message board. No harm no foul.

My first toon was a scrapper. Those are easy to use in my opinion. Before I took up a tank, I paid close attention to how they were used. I witnessed a number of ways people employeed them. Those that failed, I noted on what not to do, and those who were successful, I noted what to do. My brother, who's played CoH longer than me, I picked his brain and teamed with him learning the roll of the Tanker. I'm thankful for that because to date, I've not had anyone complain about my tanking. We all know players will speak up during a mission when a tanker is not doing their part. Of all the tankers I've used, the worse one in my experience is the electric/electric.

I couldn't agree more with you. I just want to see them adjust the tanker where it is back to being the premire aggro generator above what the Brute and Scrapper are capable of doing, with or without specialized IO sets.

First, I have played this game for over 3.5 years. Second, this is not my first tank it is more like my eighth or ninth. Of all of them, this is the only one I have ever had a problem with in holding aggro. I do not have that problem with my Electric/TW tank, SD/Mace tank, or my Stone/Stone tank all of which I am actively leveling with my Stone/TW tank. Ask for opinions to improve the performance is the ability to learn from others when help is needed. Not that "I not had exposure to a class who's specialty is agro magnet, but looks like a melee character."

While I may have 1.5 years less than you in playing this game, I have more years of gaming experience than I care to think about, which affords me the experience to identify problems. The fact of the matter is, had I been some noob, more than likely I would not even had noticed what was happening in the first place. The fact that I did see the aggro problem in not keeping enemies in front of me, instead they ran passed, towards another teammate, or away from me, means I am not some noob playing an AT for the very first time. When a Defender can draw a mob of 5 targets from me, while in the heat of battle, then something is seriously wrong with the build, not that I do not know what, when, where, or how to use the AT.

Unbelievably, Build Up and Chucking hunks of Street (as I like to call it) are very important to Stone attacks. Build Up can mean the difference in defeating an opponent or being defeated, the increase of damage and accuracy alone are worth taking it. Now throwing huge chunks of street at enemies far away is important. A Stone/Stone tank has very little in the way of ranged attacks. Hurl Boulder can be, if properly outfitted with ranged enhancements, a devastating and effective attack. My WP/SS Brute uses her Hurl Boulder as fast as it recharges. Therefore, I do recommend you keep those two powers. There is a point in the mid-twenties where obtaining other powers can happen because the primary and secondary powers are not available.

What I did was take the important points made in each quote and combined them into one mission statement. Nothing was modified to make it say something it is not. Every thing in my new statement says the exact same thing using 48 words, not in 142 words. Short, to the point, and no ambiguity to what the purpose of a tanker is. You can claim otherwise, but the truth is staring you in the face:

"The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. Proudly standing in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent."

WT...well, that settles it for me. I will not bother doing the new ones until such time the developers go back and revamp their god like trial(s).

You know, the more I hear of this trial the less I am incline to ever participate in it with any one of my melee ATs. What use is it for a tanker, brute, or scrapper to fight with what amounts to one arm tied behind their back? If one cannot use the entire arsenal of powers in a trial, said trial is nothing more than a type of AT segregation in rendering a tanker, et al, nearly useless, even with epic and incarnate powers.

&

These two quotes, though worded differently, say the same thing about what the role of a tanker truely is.

"The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. Proudly standing in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent."

In my opinion this is what the Tanker ultimately is and his primary role in CoH. With the inclusion of hero Brutes as teammates in Paragon City, the waters are now muddy. The problems we are seeing now where not prevalent when these two were not able to team together as they are now, day after day after day. Aett_Thorn showed me the numbers between a Tanker & Brute in generating aggro alone and it is staggering. This in my opinion is why Tanker enthusiast questions the primary role and abilities of a Tanker.

My concern was keeping the Defender and the MM out of trouble. Both were doing a great job of healing and the defender's buffs were great too. I wasn't worried about the others as they could take care of themselves. Anytime either Def or MM came near me, I redoubled my efforts to ensure they didn't get into trouble. I asked them to target through me so I'd get their aggro. That operation was very successful as neither were put down.

Aett_Thorn, thank you. This helps me understand better. I looked all over for those numbers and couldn't find them. Last night I started loading up with Sirrocco's Dervish for defensive sweep, and Perfect zinger for my taunt and Titan sweep. I plan on doing the same for the rest. I had wanted to wait until I reached lvl 30. But I see now I cannot.

Additionally, the fact that the brute has a higher aggro than a tanker shows there is a problem. Before Brutes were allowed on blue side this wasn't a problem. Now that they are, it is a problem that developers hadn't thought about, at least I hope so. Thank you again.

Last night this became even more apparent. While doing Synapses’ TF, I found myself chasing targets instead of them coming for me, even after using my taunt. Moreover, if I entered the spawn area first, taunted and engaged, those enemies around me stayed long enough for me to do def swing, titan swing, crushing blow, follow through, ending with a def swing. Then those not closes to me, ran off to engage the others behind me.

The makeup of our TF included 2 brutes, a scrapper, defender, MM, and another 2 tankers. All of the brutes and tankers either had invulnerability, WP, and one other stone armored tanker too who had TW too. However, he did not stay long with us because he kept being killed for some reason. It got to the point that when I taunted a group of enemies coming towards, they ignored me and ran towards the others. This happened all night long. At the end of the TF when we faced Babbage, I kept his attention or brought it back to me when he turned toward the others. I'm a bit frustrated with this. I do not have this problem with my Shield/Mace tank. He charges in, I do not have to taunt him, the all jump him.

It was my belief that a Stone Armored tanker's ability to hold aggro or be the biggest threat for enemies to attack. My quest is that if this is the case, why then cannot I hold aggro or get enemies to stay or come my way. Even my teammates noticed this. If this is what I have to expect from this AT with SA/TW, he is going to be a liability where teammates end up getting face planted because of his inability to keep the enemies facing him.

Therefore, last night I decided to load up my taunt with perfect zinger and will do the same with titan sweep too. I had regular IOs enhancing the powers. Can anyone give me some pointers here before I get to the point and just delete the toon out of frustration?

Currently, I'm playing my TW/SA tank too and enjoying myself. Right now, I'm at lvl 23. When I reached lvl 20, I switched over to using standard IO enhancements. It is my plan to start using speciality IO sets when I reach lvl 30. Then I will start using IO sets for PBAOE, Targeted AOE, and so on. I have a full set of Numnia's Healing for my Stone Healing power I will use.

My advice is to wait till lvl 20 to start using standard IOs and then dive into the others when you have a better idea of what you want to do with the tank. That should give you a bit more time to research. That you can do at Paragonwiki by looking at the TW and Stone Armor powers and the listed IOs and sets for each one.

This is my only problem with Tankers. That a scrapper and a brute do as much damage over and above what a tank can do is simply puzzling.

This weekend (Saturday & Sunday) I had my TW/Stone (23) tank in a mission with another Brute (24) (TW/Reg) and a Scrapper (24) (Claws/Reg) and my tank could hardly put down any foes in the numbers and/or time my teammates were doing. Fact is, I had to keep hitting taunt to keep them fighting me, or they would turn on the brute and scrapper. The more important thing is all of us were using standard IOs, no specially crafted IOs sets. Compared to the other two, my damage was incredibly low. This really disappointed me.

Based on my experience from this weekend alone, there is a huge disparity between a tanker, brute, and scrapper in damage delivered on targets. Additionally, my tank's ability to hold aggro with the brute and scrapper was bad too. That should not have been the case. As far as I know, stone armored tanks are supposed to have the best ability in keeping aggro. That did not happen. I would not have said a thing about it if it just happened one or two times. This happened all day long on both Saturday and Sunday.

Therefore, I can appreciate Mauk's feelings about the real problems the tanker AT are facing when talking about damage, keeping aggro, and their overall performance.

I said to myself I wasn't going to participate any further in this thread after Dues BS comment, especially after all the suggestions I read. However, if what I said wasn't clear, as you indicated then I have the responsibility to clarify myself. You'll have to excuse my grammatical errors as I was typing all of this from work. I should have checked myself before hitting the submission button.

1. Rage vs Fury.

You are correct, I mixed the two up. Replace fury for rage.

2. A -ToHit debuff on other players in range of your Taunt aura?

That should have read "enemies on players in range of the tanker's taunt aura."

3. A bar that goes up as the Tanekr and his team gets damaged? What about Tankers that rely on not getting hit?

A 'fury type bar' call it the 'Gauntlet Bar,' rises in a similar fashion of a brute affording the tanker's HP to increase in a similar fashion a brute's damage increases while they are:

a. Receiving damage

b. Team mates receiving damage or the lost of a team mate.

4. Taunting aura range going up increases the Tanker's threat?

a. Tanker's threat lvl increases becoming the greatest threat to the enemies within the taunt aura range as the 'Gauntlet bar' increases

b. Extend the range of effect of the tanker's taunt aura.

5. A tanker's Damage potential.

I think we all can agree that a Tanker's ability to deliver damage compared to a scrapper or brute is seriously lacking without them using any toggles or influences of a fury bar (brute). Since the tanker's damage is lacking, it makes sense it should increase. I believe a tanker's damage potential should have a similar potential that a brute has excluding the influence of fury. This would allow said tanker to dispatch enemies in a more timely fashion instead of spending longer periods pounding on one or two when the rest of the team is dispatching the remainder in a far quicker time. This is especially true when a tanker is soloing.

Additionally, you'll note I did not mention increasing the tanker's damage with the 'Gauntlet Bar.' Just the tanker’s HP and Defensive bonus. The tanker's damage is capped; however, it can be increased with the use of SOs or IOs.

I believe I clarified Arcanaville's second point. Let me clarify on his first one.

The Shield Defensive power affords a percentage of defense with Phalanx Fighting, a toggle power.

Tanker
5% No Allies (unenhanceable)
8% (+3%) 1 Ally (base value)
11% (+3%) 2 Allies (base value)
14% (+3%) 3 Allies (base value)


What I propose is something similar tied into the 'Gauntlet Bar' along with a tanker's taunting.

A tanker gets a base +def bonus of .25 of SD bonus enhanced in the following manner:

Tanker: 1.25% (self) / 2% (1 alley) / 2.75% (2 allies) / 3.5% (3 allies / 4.25% (4 allies)...+.75% per additional alley above 4 for a maximum of 8 teammates for 7.25%.

Now if a Tanker has SD, obviously they won't get the def modifier since SD affords them a higher % of defense. However, they would still receive the increased HP, taunt aura range, increase of taunted individuals to 25, and -to hit debuff.

In battle, a tanker should become more dangerous of a threat to all enemies around him because of his ability to soak up damage. Increasing his hit points, his taunting abilities, and giving a modest +def% to himself and his team mates within his taunt aura range make him the focus of enemies to better protect the team from aggro they may generate. I hope this clarifies my input for those interested.

The premise of this thread revolves around lack of ranged attacks on Tankers. Your interjection of whatever lvl AV does not take away this fact. I read your statement in its entirety with full comprehension of what you wrote. However, it is your last statement that what I questioned, not if the toon in question is leveled appropriately. Arbitrarily stating a toon is useless "just because..." they may or may not have a level to someone's liking does not pass the smell test.

Players, all players take offense whether they want to admit it or not, when another player insults said toon. Said toon is an extension of the player who invested their time, energy, and their personal ideas into creating a particular toon. This is a fact of gaming I have witnessed and studied across a number of genres, including this medium.

The fact a person may or may not have the experience in "avoiding getting bombed with death patches" is a completely different matter and off-topic from what the originator of this thread inquired about. Alternatively, a person who lacks such experience will soon gain it if they have the capability of learning. Did you come to play this game with the foreknowledge of the game's mechanics knowing what, when, where, and how to respond from the get go? No, I don't think so. None of us have.

Additionally, be careful in slinging around off-hand comments about reading comprehension (i.e.: questioning someone' intelligence). You might find yourself insulting someone who may have a higher degree of intelligence and holding master's degree or higher. Such a comment can be construed as a personal attack, a violation of ToS.

Overpowered? You cannot be serious. Compared to what I have read throughout this massive tome of a thread, it is mild.

However, I will bow to your obviously great experience of all things. I will delete my suggestion since it is soooo overpowering. It's not like I have 10 years of game developing of two major game systems under my belt.

So let me get this straight. If my tank does not have does not have any ranged attacks at all, then it is useless; as in it serves no purpose and shouldn't be included in any TF?

Yeah, like muddy water.

I now how you feel. I thought it would be a great combination months ago when I started one and by the time I reach lvl 20, I'd become completely disgusted with it that I finally deleted the character and swore off ever using it again.

This is wrong on so many levels it is not funny. For anyone to reject another player because of the AT, is ridiculous as it is inflammatory.

Had I been in your position, I would place said individual on permanent ignore never to have anything to do with them. There is no reason anyone can give to exclude any AT from doing any trial at any time.

As for Shaggy's problem, I see no problem how you developed your Tanker. If you decided not to have any ranged attacks, so be it. No hero/villain can be the, be all to beat all. Case in point, my own 50 lvl Scrapper and Tank do not have any 'ranged' weapons. One is a melee specialist (scrapper) and the other, dual swords. Someone tells me "I should have ranged weapons" my response is, that is your opinion and I do not hold to that opinion with the makeup of my character.

Currently, my 44th lvl Defender (Kin/DP) has epic powers available. I am not taking any of them. They are a waste of time for my defender because what is available for epic powers suck in my opinion. Therefore, I am selecting other powers to enhance my defender's current powers and survivability. Epic or Patron powers are not all that, not when they are hard lock for each AT. Powers like 'Body Mastery' and 'Weapon Mastery' should be available to all ATs since they are more AT neutral. I'd rather have access to these two for my defender, but they are not. Nevertheless, that is another topic of discussion.

Anyway, Shaggy, I think you handled it in the best possible manner as you could. At least it sounds like you enjoyed the trial.

I have the same tanker and my endurance issue is not that bad. It might be due to having slotted 3 end mod IOs in my stamina with an end IO enhancement slotted in all the attack powers too and any toggled electric armor power too. Knowing ahead of time that endurance was going to be an issue, I went ahead and planned for using IOs as soon as I could start building.

Alternatively, I started another toon, a brute this time, with TW and WP using the same methods for slotting in stamina and so far, endurance is not an issue.