Kitsune9tails

Happy Birthday CoH, and the wonderful CoH staff. Thanks for being here for me.

What Blasters need to do (IMHO)

SOLO:
Blasters need to be able to defeat a standard city spawn before it defeats them most of the time. This means, they should be able to 1- or 2- shot a white minion, and defeat an even-level LT with 3 to 6 attacks.

(Other ATs can do less damage solo, because it should take the standard spawn more hits to defeat them.)

PVP:
2 Blasters, working in sync, should be able to take down any other single AT before it can take either of them out (This is also true about any other team of archetypes in the arena. Any pair should be able to quickly defeat any loner). Yes, Tankers too. This means that a single Blaster should be able to do about 15% of an even-level Tanker's hp per shot (Mileage may vary, based on the Tanker's specific defenses). This way they have a chence of defeating the Tanker before catches and 2- or 3- shots one of them.

TEAMS
A Blaster should enable any team to defeat stronger and more numerous enemies than they would be able to otherwise.

Blasters should be invited to any team looking for AoE damage, or just more damage.

The Blaster should do this via AoE attacks, adding damage that the other ATs can't, or damaging foes safely while the other ATs neutralize them.

A Blaster teamed with a Scrapper has just doubled the damage potential of either alone. Also while the Scrapper keeps aggro off of the Blaster, the Blaster keeps the Scrapper safe by defeating enemies quickly so that they do less damage to the Scrapper.

SECONDARIES
A Blaster's melee secondaries should be sufficient to finish off an enemy that has managed to close through the Blaster's ranged attacks, or allow the Blaster to escape melee long enough to counterattack.

A Blaster's non-melee secondaries should provide a range of utility abilities in theme with the specific powerset (without overshadowing other ATs).

WEAKNESSES
A Blaster on a team should need teammates to protect him from the increased number and power of enemies.

Solo, the Blaster should (like all other ATs) be able to handle a standard spawn of his level, but will face downtime due to a lack of self healing and self protection.

Agree? Disagree?

To my mind, the Devs have never said that there would not be rewards unique to PvP.

IIRC, they DID say that any rewards unique to PvP would not be helpful in PvE.

Would you be concerned about a badge for PvP? Or even a Temp Power that is the same as one you can get in PvE, but called something different with a different look (like Sprint/Powerslide)?

That's what I'm thinking.

I like the idea that, instead of a death timer, all xp gained while dead goes only to debt.

A well-equipped level 22 will have a huge advantage over a mediocrely equipped one...but isn't a better-equipped hero supposed to have an advantage, all other factors being the same?

I wonder if there's a "no Enhancements" match option...

No, there will probably be other options that are even better 'no blasters' options:

A 'melee powers only' option is possible, for instance. Or an option that caps the range on all powers to 30 feet or so.

And there are probably a full range of anti-specific-AT options, like:

No healing.

No Holds.

No Defensive Powers.

No Pool Powers.

...you get the idea. Before accepting a match, be sure to know what rules it has...

...unless of course, there's a 'random rules' option.

Chapter 4: Colosseum...now you don't.

If there are np FFA areas, then there is no need for level-evening code, IMHO. If there are FFA areas, I like this solution, from DamnedOne.

[ QUOTE ]

I go to the yellow line and see this
Atlas Park
Atlas Park PvP(1-6)
Kings Row
Kings Row PvP(5-10)
That how I want to see it happen.
If you can't gain XP here solo, then you can't PvP here, atlas park has mobs that are levels 1-6, so thus any level 1-6 toon cna PvP in atlas park Pvp
Kings Row has mobs 5-10 ((maybe 11 but KR after lvl 10 sucks)) so you have to be level 5 to go in, but you can't enter it if you are level 11+


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If there is a playfield-evening code, I'd like it to be for Arena matches only or for a chosen Player Nemesis.

Most PvP in CoV (according to the website) will be based around base raids or PvP missions, which will all presumably be level restricted anyway.

The only time you might need level-evening code is in FFA areas (which may not exist), if a PvP toggle is used (I hope not) or in Arena matches (and even then it should be optional).

So rather than artificially boosting or limiting my effectiveness (doing it as part of a story is fine), just limit the levels I can challenge or encounter. However, I do like the idea of being able to designate an arch-foe, who then stays near me in effectiveness no matter what.

Well my thought is that most villainous activities should be coded to be part of the framework of some 'master plan' in accordance with the Goals of Ego, Greed and so forth.

Perhaps there could be an 'ultimate relic' that theoretically grants the pinnacle of each Goal (unlimited wealth, universal destruction, etc), but in order to get to it, you must assemble several other Relics (stealing some from museums or heroes), put together some kind of cool device (stealing parts, repelling attacks upon your labs), and so on.

Perhaps Relics aligned to a certain Goal give lesser benefits to villains of another Goal.

That sort of thing.

I think it needs to be mentioned that there is a difference between being evil and being a villain.

There are plenty of "evil" heroes (Paragon City is apparently defended by the population of the ninth circle of Hell, judgicng by many of the players I've seen) such as Ghost Rider, Etrigan the Demon, or even early Wolverine. And many villains, such as Magneto or Doctor Doom or Dr. Vahzilok have goals which are ultimately noble.

To be a villain, you have to have A Plot That Must Be Stopped. Some unattainable goal that spells doom (or at least a massive bummer) to the world (or at least the city) such as controlling all of the crime, being able to flout laws without consequence, or killing everybody to make the world a safer place.

What about the idea of, instead of making Power, Greed, Ego, Money and Domination 'extra Origins' associated with existing Origins, why not make them something else entirely?

Your Enhancements would still function along the lines of Magic, Technology, etc but your Contacts and Missions would reflect your Goals. Your Goal would not have to mesh with your Origin (some players would find that restrictive), but certain kinds of missions would tend toward certain drops (instead of basing the drops on the enemy defeated).

So you could be a Magic/Greed villain, for instance.

Also, the current plan is for all player villains to be granted their powers some time after play begins, when they 'earn' them from a sponsoring criminal organization. Your Origin/Goal might be set by which organization(s?) you choose to work for before you get your powers.

As for Fallen Heroes...maybe that is the mechanic for them as well. You want your hero to fall from grace? Cool! First, you have to submit to this power-stripping process and succeed in some missions as a thug in my organization before we give you new powers, Superman...

I like your ideas a lot, Fishwan.

First off, I'd like to say that the Official City of Villains website does seem to answer some of the questions you raise.

For instance, player villains will start off without powers and work their way up through the villain organization of their choice in order to gain powers.

This would seem to make creating a 'fallen hero' difficult (although you could say in a new character's backstory that they lost their powers or volunteered to have them stripped when they joined the villains).

Also, the site clearly says that villains will start off in the Fallen Isles, then travel to Paragon City to wreak havoc.

The site seems to me to indicate that most PvP will be base raids in pursuit of Relics of Power (which could be designed along the lines of the factions you propose), or PvP missions. No mention yet of FFA zones.

Keep up the good ideas!

;ninja: A ninja appears adjacent to the villain, accepts some instructions, then vanishes. Could also work for a butler, igor...

;swirlwine: The villain pulls out a wine glass full of some red liquid, cupping the bowl in his fingers, and swirls it casually.

;chart: The villain pulls an easel and pointer out of nowhere and indicates his evil plans.

;babes or ;hunks: The villain snaps his fingers and scantily clad npcs of the appropriate sex appear and drape themselves upon him/her/it.

Thanks devs, for a fun and well-planned event! Awesome!

...hey, isn't War Witch part of the Coven?

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, I am disappointed in you. Quite disappointed. You tell us that large player groups should move out of the city zones and move to the Hazard and Trial zones. Many posters including myself have pointed out that we can't, because of SKs. You have completely ignored us. Yet you have made several posts as soon as someone posted that the groups are no larger in Trial zones. You know how it appears? Like on the one issue the players are demonstrably right, and your "vision" can't be defended. So you don't post. However, as soon as someone takes issue with something where you think you can shoot them down, you jump right in. You have a great rep with the players, but your attitude in this thread isn't exactly giving it a polish.

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I doubt if level restricted zones are going away. The whole point of having a level restricted zone is so that all of the new exploration-oriented players don't log into the game the first day, get mentored by a level 50 friend, tour all the zones and then say, "bored now".

Some of the content in the game you have to earn, like Badges, and certain Contacts.

Hmmm...there should be Badges at the appropriate levels for earning the right to enter level restricted zones. Hey, geko!...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons


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Under this scenario, a team of 8 heroes would be facing 240 minions in a single mission room. I don't need to point out that 1) the rooms aren't big enough for this and 2) most video cards aren't good enough for this. You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.

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How about:
L1-10: 3 minions
L11-20: 4 minions
L21-25: 5 minions
L26-30: 6 minions
L31-35: 7 minions
L36-40: 8 minions
L41-45: 9 minions
L46-50: 10 minions

L1-10: 1 Lt
L11-20: 2 Lts
L21-30: 3 Lts
L31-40: 4 Lts
L41-50: 5 Lts

L1-50: 1 Boss

L1-50: .125 of an AV

I think this ratio would reflect a progression in power in the game (and comics) much better. As you grow in power, you can not only take on more tougher foes, but slightly more as well. However Bosses and Lieutenants remain fearsome.

And at 30th level, that 8 man team would encounter something like 1 Boss, 3 Lts, and 36 minions. At 20th level, the same team fought 1 Boss, 2 Lts, and 20 minions...now they feel more like they are making progress.

What do you all think?

This is somewhat long, but please CoH players, read it and comment.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.

Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.

Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.

Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.

In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.

Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.

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I agree with everything you have said here, except for one thing.

As the players gain levels, gain enhancements, gain skill at playing, they will want to feel that they are gaining in power.

I must agree with the others that have said that being an even match for 3 white minions is fine a level 20, but insufficient at level 50.

Even-con Minions, however powerful, should be trivial for the Supermen and Spider-men of the world.

I humbly suggest that the number of minions you are expected to have an 'even fight' with increase to 5 at level 22 (because of the boost in power from SOs) and progress from there:

6 white Minions at level 25, 7 at 30, 8 at 35, etc.

Please also keep in mind the 'expected time to solo'. A Mind Controller should solo those minions slower than a Blaster. But if a Blaster can down those Minions in 30 seconds the Mind Controller should be expected to do the same in 2 minutes or so, not 5 minutes like it is now.

How to do this? I have a suggestion:

Leave minions mostly alone.
It makes us feel very powerful and super-heroey to be able to tackle a lot of minions at once.

Beef up Lieutenants.
I think that your 'standard of what a hero can take' should be based more around Lts. A hero should be able to take on a number of Lts equal to 1/10 his level. Level 50? Congratulations, you have an even fight with 5 Lts!

Beef up Bosses a lot.
Conversely, a Boss Fight should always be a mano-a-mano challenge for a hero.

I have no problem with AoE Blasters nailing a spawnful of minions with a Built Up Alpha Strike (that's their job!), so long as they NEED the rest of the team for healing, protection, and Crowd Control from the massive return volley of fire from the surviving Bosses and Lts (that's our job!).

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, it'd help if groups didn't just flat-out suck to begin with. It doesn't matter how helpful controllers and defenders are to groups if groups get less XP than soloers.

Seriously, that's a huge problem. If teh game is going to let soloing be not just viable, but at least as good as grouping, eventually there will be no groups. It's too hard logistically to make a good group, and takes too much of an investment, for it to ever be worthwhile if the xp ends up being the same as a solo player.

We'll end up w/ a few groups made up of SG mates, and a bunch of solo players trying to get buy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really good design puzzle.

If soloing is more profitable xp wise, more people will do it, and some people may have trouble getting groups.

If grouping is more profitable, more people will do that, and soloers will perceive the game as another 'forced grouping' game.

If they are equal, soloing may still win because it's easy, whereas grouping may win because of the community.

Besides, individual builds, even within the same archetype (even within the same power sets) solo or group better than others (and always will).

...doesn't it all come down to personal preference in the end?

How can I find myself agreeing with both Genesis and Liquid? Maybe they aren't actually disagreeing with each other...

I am not perfectly satisfied with the SS line because of the changes to Knockout Blow, but it is enough to silence most of my arguments about what should be done for Update 2. The power really needed a high damage optional attack that had that "Clobbering Time!" feel.

I personally would prefer that attack be Haymaker, but that's beside the point.

One-shotting a minion every swing? No. One shotting a minion once per fight as often as a Blaster can Sniper one, under the same restrictions? OK by me (I sniper minions from inside melee range with my Blaster alt all of the time, silly, but fun).

Having most of the attacks in Super Strength be relatively fast? Also cool.

I think that 2 players with the same powersets, should be able to cover completely different playstyles and character designs by picking different powers. SS might be a little closer to being that, now.

I kind of agree with Lungorthar, but I'd leave Tankers at 75% and raise Scrappers to 85 or 90% base accuracy. Players hate missing more often than that.

Also, playing a 'tough Scrapper' or an 'evasive Tanker' should be an option, but a Scrapper should never be able to reach the same Resistance or Magnitude caps as a Tanker, just as a Tanker should not outdamage a Scrapper in both damage per hit or Damage per Second (one or the other maybe, but not both).

I think the hard cap on effective Resistances should be raised to 95% for Tankers. To balance this, give Scrappers a 5% break on Recharge delays.

Thanks for the reply, Krunch.

While you're about, a quick math question: How much damage per swing would you need to add to bring SS up to 75% of, say, a Martial Arts Scrappers' DPS. Let's assume Hasten and Stamina are used since the Devs obviously are.

And would that be a fair comparison?

Sorry to work your math brain, but mine is not up to it.

Quick question for the number-Krunchers...

Aren't the Tanker DPS'es, and especially Super Strength, supposed to be 75% of what Scrappers dish out?

If so, is that true in practice? On paper?

What about damage per minute?

I'd prefer that the multi-tasking missions be moved to TFs and Trials (and for more TFs to be added).

If multi-tasking missions are left in Contacts, they will need an additional XP bonus (or other reward) to make them attractive.

A Contact for group missions behind the Supergroup Registration counter would also be cool.

Here is my proposed dream version of the Super Strength power set.

Level 1: Jab...just fine as is.

Level 2: Punch...just fine as is. Perhaps increase the recharge delay and damage both by 25%.

Level 4: Hand Clap...move this here as a 'Rival' to Provoke. Lower the endurance cost, and remove the Disorient. As of this power, you start to feel like a Comic Book Tanker. The aggro this generates might be troublesome to inexperienced players at this level, but the Knockdown will help them.

Level 10: Taunt...because it has to go somewhere, I suppose.

Level 16: Footstomp...a natural follow up to Hand Clap, and with merely Moderate damage, I don't feel this is overpowered or overly complex here.

Level 20: Haymaker...Your level 20 power should define the secondary. As of now, it's "Clobbering Time". This attack should do at least Superior damage, and it should do knockBACK. I can see balancing this with a lack of slotability for damage or recharge, very long recharge, even making it a sniper attack. You should be able to use this power to one-shot white minions at the beginning of a fight, and use it occaisionally, but to much appreciated effect, in long fights.

Level 28: Rage...I personally have no issue with the disorient, but an alternative would be a speed and damage debuff.

Level 35: Hurl...Propel animation, please. And make it an AoE.

Level 38: Knockout Blow..."Finish Him!" Move this here as the crowning power in the set. I am currently confused as to whether this power Sleeps or not, but I think it should.