JusticeisServed
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That's not too bad!!
Now lets say we switched it to hover and flight (just purely hypothetical).
You could get some similar defensive stats and if you hovered you could be off the ground..
That obviously won't save you from an air based AoE attack, but i'm thinking it might help you out vs the aoe's targeting the whole team (if you're above the cone right??) -
Quote:Well if you add it being your opinion I agree.. You're certainly entitled to the opinion.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
In general, I find stone tanks to be at the bottom tier, in my opinion, because they cannot react and move quickly. This is because two powers, one of which is critical to survival, severely limit maneuverability. Teleport works to an extent, but does have a noticeable cast time and limitations around corners.
I can't argue you on the corners with port.
But rooted is a very quick recharge so it can be turned off and on pretty quick. The right io's pick up run speed a lot.
But certainly I'm just posting this to try to influence your opinion not knock it or anything.. Just providing a counter opinion (I hope that's coming across in my wording as I don't intend to sound disrespectful or anything!).
Here's how I like to play my stoner.
Put on my shoes TP in spam aoe's taunts focus single target on the biggest threat.
When everything is justa bout dead (maybe a smidge of health on the boss or a minion or two left) if everyone's stamina and life is good (which it tends to be late game for stamina , and if you held aggro properly for health) tp to the next group and grab the whole groups aggro.
I've adapted this playstyle to my stoner mostly because after playing many tanks (one of favorite at's) I can't stand when someone starts blasting the group before I'm able to grab all the aggro, so porting in before they even start looking at that group has always served me well.
That being said.. AS a tanker fan.. I'd love to see what you've done with your dark/!
I'm always game for trying a tanker primary I have yet to really play around with! Perhaps PM me some tips I should look for when I try to make this one!
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Quote:Totally agree with you on pretty well all counts. The henchmen certainly don't have the "punchvoke" that tankers are built with. Hence why a MM won't be as good as a tank..Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
As Dechs Kaison pointed out, this is more due to the starting point of a Brute when he is solo, compared to a Tanker. On a team, a Brute can reach the same caps as a Tanker. However, it is harder to reach those caps (since he starts further from them) and Granite particularly cuts into the damage the Brute usually relies on to make up the difference.
The Granite Brute may be the best Brute suited for tanking, but it is not the best Brute suited for bruting. And it may not even be the best tank, overall. Which is what I think Dechs was trying to say.
The Threat level of a Mastermind Henchman appears to be the same as Scrappers, and less than Tankers and Brutes. Most henchmen also lack the ability to Taunt, or Gauntlet or "pokevoke". However, we don't really know how pets interact with the AI, they may be given a higher rating for aggro generation, or other factors may be involved. Being in melee seems to multiply aggro generation considerably, and the AI tendency to take time between attacks may also "spike" threat, which is why I tend to send my Tier 3 henchmen into melee. (And why the Bruiser seems so good at holding aggro)
An MM henchman is usually pretty good about keeping aggro off of non-Brute redside teammates for a short time, but it's sporatic. It helps to either go in first, or right after the Brute, so your team is pulling aggro off you, not the other way around. Beyond that, the Tankermind strategy is needed for "true" tanking.
Honestly, on a small team the MM is usually the best suited to hold aggro, while on a larger team the Brute is the better.
Brutes definitely suffer from "blaster" syndrome in terms of grabbing aggro. We all know damage generated is a factor towards stealing agro, hence why a scrapper is not a competent tank. Sure they can survive well, deal a ton of damage, etc etc. But when something puts up bigger orange numbers some agro gets drawn away (generally). Such is the problem with no punchvoke, brutes can put up those big numbers that tend to draw some agro.
Because of this Brutes have one aspect of tanking better than the MM, their damage numbers do nice to recreate the punchvoke a tank has..
Which echo's the fact that nothing red side is 100% equivalent with blue side.. At best it's hybrids of each.
I agree with your assessment on small teams the MM is better and on large teams the brute is better.. But on the large (half decent put together teams with some buffs) the brute can get to the cap's of resistances/boost defenses, receive outside healing.
Heck I love playing an MM and just focusing my healing on the brute and letting my minions attack whatever I tell them. So I fully agree.. -
Quote:Ahh My apologies.. you are correct.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
This is an uneducated statement with regard to brutes.
Brutes have resistance caps of 90% just like tankers, and they also have the same HP cap as tankers. The modifiers are lower, so a brute gets less resistance/defense out of his powers than a tanker, but the cap is still the same for both. Brutes also start out with more hit points than scrappers.
They can achieve the 90% resistance mark, they just have an incredibly hard time trying to do it on their own.. My apologies for mis-speaking (it's been forever since I've played with brutes and mids).
Ok.. So dark can out damage out agro and outlast stone thanks to the best heal in the game the great aura's etc.. Still not sure how that squarely puts Stone in the BOTTOM tier of all tankers..Quote:Originally Posted by dechs KaisonSay what you like, but I've yet to see a stone tanker of any kind out pace, out aggro, out damage, and outlast my Dark Armor tank.
I certainly didn't say it's absolutely 100% the very best.. Just certainly not the worst. -
I'd love to see the build too! But can certainly understand why Silverado wouldn't share it!
I gotta keep working on my fire/mind blaster someday! Stalled at 35?? -
Quote:Seeing the resistance is only based on smashing and lethal I don't think that should make a noticeable difference..Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Of course. My SR isn't even close to my Invuln tank? Seriously, is your tank IO'd?
I love my SR, but the line between indestructible and faceplanted is thin. Maybe you are playing at lower settings? My standard is only 4/+2.
Generally I find that /Shields performs better in most situations, with the advantage going to SR when the defense debuffs are extreme. The extra hit points and resistances in Shields make a huge difference.
The only thing unusual about my SR is I don't run Tough, so the 17% resistance might have made the difference...
Yeah my Inv tank is very IO'ed in order to achieve as much defense as I can.. He's a great tank one of my faves.. Almost as survivable as the granite tanker.. Certainly Smashing/lethal being capped res all the time is totally awesome. He's definitely a great tank (and the improvements thanks to Io's and reconsidering the invulnerability power set have made him from sub par to well above average).
But generally MY SR defense just flat out isn't getting hit that often. And when he does Aid self is up a whole lot quicker than dull pain. So sure.. when he gets hit he risks being 2 shotted.. But it's not very often the random hit decides to hit him twice in a row.. There's certainly plenty of time to go from half health to full health rather quickly and easily..
Of course perhaps the skewed nature of this is in that once I get playing the brute it's easy to keep him between like 70-100% fury which means he's one shotting minions, one or two shotting lts. and bosses aren't really much different (3-4 maybe) thus able to take out the biggest targets most likely to hit hardest first. Something that even with rage my super strength tank cannot claim.
FWIW, I do agree shields is a better general purpose set thanks to some resistance some +hp.. Earlier AOE defense.. etc.
It's just harder to softcap..
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Quote:I disagree with your assessment of bottom teir of "true tankers"Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
/threadjack
Stone tankers are at the bottom tier of "true" tankers in my mind.
A true tanker has mobility and agility. A true tanker should be able to withstand and dish out a beating. A true tanker is the first and only one on his team to die.
If a tanker is the last man standing, he has failed.
A poorly build stone tanker is bottom tier.. a granite only is bottom tier.
I'm quite content running my armors (all but brimstone) for general teaming and coming out alive thanks to rooted and earth's embrace..
Mobility can be mitigated by properly using taunt and the usage of teleport..
My stoner has no problem being the first to a mob (in any form) grabbing aggro to the mob and taunting that one guy that slips away because the blaster made them real mad.. A true tanker isn't about dishing out the beating.. But with the introduction of IO's stoners can do that too... +rech lowers the penalty of granite (and makes non granite way more fast paced), +damage helps offset the cost.
Pair a good set with a stoner (I chose fire specifically for the AOE's and damage outputs) and you'll find a granite tanker is definitely not a "low tier" tanker.. -
Quote:This is an uneducated statement in regard to masterminds..Originally Posted by Stratos
Masterminds especially don't have a blue equivalent. Closest would be Defender with weaker heals/buffs/debuffs but has 6 henchmen. I think its dumb to say a MM is more like a Tanker than a Brute is. A Brute has basically the same exact sets as a Tankers, they just swap primaries with secondaries. Brutes get granite, super strength, etc that scrapper do not. Masterminds, like many ATs simply *can* tank if built and played a certain way.
As mentioned masterminds are the only set that have a high amount of hp that is sustainable (moreso than a tank in many cases). Because of bodyguard mode the Mastermind themselves have have a damage resistance that's higher than most of the tank sets.
Brutes have "the same exact sets."
This is true but the parallel ends tehre.. the caps for resistances are 15 points lower (90 for tanks 75 for brutes if I recall correct). Brutes also have LESS hitpoints than scrappers..
I'm not sure if you've tried Granite Tank vs. a Granite Brute.. But my Granite brute is crap compared to the tank.. sure he can deal more damage, but unless it's smashing lethal damage.. forget about it.. the trade off for the speed and such does not put me anywhere near on par with a tank..
Further, unless it's changed, MM Pets have more aggro generation than any set villain side. I think the threat level pets are assessed at is only second to tanks.
The only part about an MM that Can't tank as well as it's a bit harder than it is with a tank to hold aggro.. But if you honestly think the brute (super reflexes aside) can wade into a big pile of mess like a tank can and come out alive.. You're sadly mistaken..
OF course there are MM's that can wade into massive spawns of stuff and come out with more hp better than others.. But the same can be said about the tank sets too.. -
Quote:Yeah this is what I was pretty well figuring since the combat oriented IO's grant most of the +def bonuses..Originally Posted by Postagulous
If memory serves, with AR/Dev you can't cap anything. The other secondaries with lots of melee can hit it if they take ice as the epic.
and dev is a set sadly devoid of that...
So perhaps I should build towards just making an extremely playable (although probably best played with a friend) ar/dev..
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Quote:Are you softcapped to all positions??Originally Posted by Moonlighter
My only problem with my SR is I just get one or two shotted way enough to be really annoying. Last week it was a Arachnos boss with Assassin's Strike and a pair of Rikti bosses. Both times I went from full to face plant in less than a second.
Every SR character I ever made once I hit softcap ends up becoming like my hardest toon to kill...
My SS/SR Brute can survive way way way better than my INV/SS tank.. it almost seems unfair! -
Quote:This is true..Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
As Werner states, cascading defense failures are not a problem for SR anymore. Once upon a time, SR's DDR wasn't enhanced by the defense buffs slotted. This is no longer the case. 95% capped DDR laughs at defense debuffs.
It's mostly still something I just like to keep just in case..
Actually, (after a quick check of my latest mids builds for my SR's) truth be told the Hero side SR's I have don't keep their elude due to other things being more useful at the softcap.. I TRY to keep it in there, but always seem to fail..
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I haven't played all the sets in champions enough.. nor do I play champions enough..
But holds mostly only affect one person (save one or two maybe), and frankly you can't build a "controller."
So Jack hates the controllers maybe??
Oh... And he jumped ship to star trek like a week after the release.. -
I like to keep elude on my SR's..
I build for the soft cap.. And plan to have it.. But there's too many times where I step on an autohit quicksand and see my defense plummet or get nailed by one roman, then the next.. then next thing I know my defense is half of what it was.. Elude gives that extra leeway in the "emergency" situation.
An elude crash I can plan for.. cascading defense failure due to the random hit counter deciding I need to get hit 3 times in a row I can't.. -
Quote:While you're right with that. Every team option scrapper offers the scrapper some selfish payback.Originally Posted by Werner
Thoughts on building a BS/SD for teaming (admittedly from a solo and small team player):
I "heal" my teammates by killing. Damage prevented is at least as good as damage healed.
I taunt by stabbing things in the face. And unless you're next to a Tank where it won't matter, Against All Odds will hold a lot of aggro.
If I'm on a squishy (I do play Blasters), get your Grant Cover and aggro-holding *** the hell away from me. My defense is mobility and staying away from the AoE attacks you're attracting.
(Leadership is nice, though.)
Healing the teammates is not necessary. You can do it.. Or you can just go ahead and focus on killing and using the aid self for yourself when needed.
Taunt by stabbing in the face, true... But getting those outliers to run in and feed your AAO aura to make more damage to stab the people in the face whom you're holding agro with.. = win (why fight guys with 5 people in your aura when you can taunt to pull in all 10?).
Plus forcing the mobs to attack your strongest buffered defense.
Squishy, totally understandable.. the teaming benefits of grant cover and such really shine when fighting along side another scrapper or tranker.. Though a blapper (already insane people) will enjoy the aura's as well. Plus on indoor maps where you can still stay "ranged" but get the defense bonuses.. It's nice to have. But grant cover benefits the scrapper by granting the defense debuff resistance keeping that narrow buffer you have at least slightly more intact.
So while every aspect promotes the useful outside of killing on a team, each power pick has a completely self serving purpose for the scrapper as well.. Thus making these power picks useful for the solo/small team player.
The only really negligible one (to me on small team) is grant cover as the debuff resistance isn't THAT high.. that's about it. -
Hey everyone..
So i've been REALLY wanting to build one of these dispite the flaws..
I was trying to see how close I could get to capped ranged and AOE defenses. But I can't seem to get too much.. I thought if I pick up ignite drop it at the blasters feet that keeps the baddies from getting into ranged combat (too much) and forces them to range and aoe combat..
The problem being... I cannot for the life of me get over around 20% defense and still have a build that I'm happy with.
Does anyone have a build out there that can beat 20% defenses but doesn't gimp the utility of the blaster with multiple damage types and the devices offering lots of other utility? -
MY final build stemming off that same build makes your scrapper even more of a team player.. opens up much much more endurance recovery (almost recovering 2 end per second), increases your buffer, and increases your survivability way more than one with the shield ever will..
Why my picks:
CJ and SJ - Just overall more efficient than flight..
Maneuvers + Grant Cover - Self def debuff resistance in GC, +about 15% defense for your allies (more if you don't care about the set bonuses in grant cover which aren't all that important to be honest)
Aid Other - Not only are you providing your tank with extra defenses, but since you're soft capped and most likely surviving combat better than most tanks, but when you see them starting to get hit a bit, you can give them a little health back thanks to aid other.. The tank will thank you.
Aid Self - since you're very unlikely to be hit.. it's very easy to get aid self off. And heal that bit of incoming damage you did take.. WIN!
Confront - Why would I want this? Well for one, you can survive most tanks (I don't want to say out tank, because you cannot hold agro like they can). however.. Two, Your squishier friends will be thankful when you turn around and pull the LT/boss off the blaster/troller defender. Three, the -75% range that confront grants to your enemies come running in. GENERALLY they switch to melee combat when they get there. Guess which of your defenses will have the MOST buffer thanks to parry??
Hrm...
Anyway.. my final build stemming off this one... I like this one a lot too.. I may be switching my BS/ shield guy now! :-D
*additionally I just noticed for the first time Body mastery has physical perfection.. Time to see if I can squeeze even more +regen out of my regen scrap*
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Valkyrie's Executor: Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Broad Sword
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Leadership
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hack -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Acc/Dmg(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(21)
Level 1: Deflection -- S'dpty-Def/Rchg(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(3), S'dpty-EndRdx(5), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(19), S'dpty-Def(45)
Level 2: Slice -- Achilles-ResDeb%(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(7), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(27)
Level 4: Battle Agility -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(9), S'dpty-Def(9), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(15), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(50)
Level 8: Parry -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mako-Dam%(31)
Level 10: True Grit -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(13), Mrcl-Rcvry+(13), Heal-I(17), Mrcl-Heal(46)
Level 12: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 20: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25)
Level 24: Whirling Sword -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Dmg(29), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(31), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Disembowel -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Dam%(36)
Level 28: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(40), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(42), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Build%(48)
Level 30: Aid Other -- Heal-I(A)
Level 32: Head Splitter -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(39), Achilles-ResDeb%(39)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 38: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 41: Aid Self -- Dct'dW-Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(42), Dct'dW-Heal(43), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(48), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def(45), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(45), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(46), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Grant Cover -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(48), S'dpty-Def(50)
Level 49: Confront -- Acc-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 0: Ninja Run
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If we were keeping fly for concept purposes, I'd consider doing something like this:
It brings stuff to your team (very different compared to the scrapper doesn't really need the team mentality).
You may disagree with maneuvers, but it is FAIRLY close to what you're getting out of weave.
Sure your overall resistance goes down by dropping tough, but again you're counting on your defense to be your "damage reduction."
Plus you've got one with the shield in a bad situation to bring it to about 40%. I wouldn't worry much more about resistance as getting resistance high enough to make a HUGE dent on damage that slips past your dodge isn't really going to help you that much. As the random hit generator doesn't feel you need to be hit 3-4x in a row repetitively all that often.
While how I suggest it doesn't bring your defenses into the 50's.. It does give your team incentive to get near you.. While the range on Phalanx Fighting is rather short, hopefully getting your allies to snag roughly 15% defense thanks to your maneuvers and grant cover at least puts one person within range of phalanx fighting boosting your base defense to:
41.2% melee, 51.2% ranged and 50.6% AoE.. It just goes up from there if you can get 2 or 3 people in range (thus providing your buffer). If you can find a good tank and go stand next to them they'll appreciate the added defense you can provide and you'll appreciate the defense buffer..
Additionally you get the slightly selfish defense/recharge debuff resistance provided by grant cover.
Anyway.. Enough talk! I'll post that build, and then I'm going to do one more where I've got completely free reign on the powers (IE no fly).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Valkyrie's Executor: Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Broad Sword
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hack -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Acc/Dmg(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(21)
Level 1: Deflection -- S'dpty-Def/Rchg(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(3), S'dpty-EndRdx(5), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(19), S'dpty-Def(45)
Level 2: Slice -- Achilles-ResDeb%(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(7), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(27)
Level 4: Battle Agility -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(9), S'dpty-Def(9), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(15), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(17)
Level 8: Parry -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mako-Dam%(31)
Level 10: True Grit -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(13), Mrcl-Rcvry+(13), ResDam-I(43), Mrcl-Heal(46), Heal-I(48)
Level 12: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 14: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(17)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 18: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 20: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25)
Level 24: Whirling Sword -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Dmg(29), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(31), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Disembowel -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Dam%(36)
Level 28: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(40), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(42), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Build%(48)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 32: Head Splitter -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(39), Achilles-ResDeb%(39)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 38: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 41: One with the Shield -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def(45), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(45), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(46), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Grant Cover -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(48), S'dpty-Def(50)
Level 49: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 0: Ninja Run
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Quote:Your welcome! Good luck with Numina's and miracle.. Steadfast and PS have never been a problem for me.. But the Tf's at least you can save for num and miracle.Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Thank you. This build is the one I'll go with I think. I can deal with the 8.5 less +damage. Seeing as how everything else is better. I do reget the loss of the good buffer I had on my range defense it would help prevent the whole cascading defense failure thing. Even so I think I'll do fine. The only reason I had the +Stealth in there was because I wasn't thinking. My MM and Coruptor both have them because there low HP a scraper, especially THIS scraper won't have that problem.
In any case I plan on getting Numas, Miracle, Steadfast, and Performance Shifter Uniques all with merits. That's the one good thing about blue side lots of TF's to run.
I'm sure you can do it!
I understand the fear of cascading defense failure.. and where the buffer for range helped..
But don't forget you had an AoE hole below the cap, so as soon as that somehow got nailed you'd open up that hole worse.. So your buffer isn't as big, but your hole is now gone. Really though especially as a scrapper, you just have to realize when you need to get out of combat a little and give your defense a second to pop back up (Just monitor those stats). Since you'll be hovering just fly straight up out of melee range and that should take care of most of the incoming defense failures.
QUOTE=AncientSpirit_NA;2951336]This is the thread I've been looking for since I created my first BS/SD scrapper. Really good information here.
Two questions, though --
1) Is there any difficulty melee fighting with Hover on all the time to get the defense. I don't see why there would be but I don't think I've ever had a melee toon that used hover before. (Of course, this is my first melee toon to concentrate on defense rather than resistance.)
2) Since I don't need the epic for theme purposes, if I replace caltrops with One with the Shield my resistance goes from the mid-20s to 60. But is it worth replacing the Targeting Drone with either combat jumping or manuevers for the last power pool pick? They would take Ranged and AOE Defense even closer to 50? Or is there something else that would work even better with this build.
Thanks.[/QUOTE]
Glad my information is proving valuable!
To answer your questions
1) fighting with hover sucks... If you don't slot it.. Werner is right that it's kinda like wasting slots.. I mean flat out combat jumping is the BETTER power.. It uses less endurance, it gives the same amount of defense.. It just flat out doesn't need any slotting to really be decent. That being said.. when building for positional defenses the zephyr IO is really good (IE if applying this to stalker/brute, don't use them for energy aura, since it's typed defense, as it does not give nearly as much defense type wise and 3 slotting defense only is way better)!
Not only that, but it also gives the benefit (from a hover stand point) to allow you to move faster.. If you get 2 of the 3 zephyr IOs (which aren't very expensive compared to the knock back io of the zephyr set) you almost double the movement speed (making hover just a tad slower than sprint, adding swift with a flight speed puts fly during hover at 21.9mph and sprint 26.5mph to compare). You also get 1.25 extra ranged defense as a result. boosting all your positional defenses 1.88 and boosting ranged defense by a total of 3.13
There's nothing you can do to lower the endurance cost down to the level of combat jumping.
Combat Jumping still retains being better (as it's still cheaper to slot with similar effects). It's the better choice if you need that extra slot or two to toss into another power to grab an IO bonus. Combat Jumping with a single defense boost (no extra slots) gets you 2.35. Not quite the IO'ed out hover, but with an endurance cost of .07/s vs the base .2 of hover (which is generally the equivalent of running another toggle) it's less likely to factor in to maintaining that precious blue bar.
While one defense boost into hover will net you 2.35 also.. It's painfully slow to move around the board with it (and you'll almost always forget to toggle it on when you get into a fight). So REALLY only take hover if you plan to at least add a slot to get the Zephyr set.. otherwise take Cj and be happy. Though as someone who has plenty of concept toons, I certainly can understand why you'd want hover..
Oddly enough my first 50 was a Bs/Regen scrapper named White Valkyrie (Interesting parallel with OP!). Back in the day for concept reasons I had hover 3 slotted with flight speed. After building her to get more defense to make that regen more potent, the zephyr replaced the flight speeds and I haven't looked back.. And when in missions hover around from start to finish.
As for question 2 let me make some adjustments to the build for what I'd do (removing caltrops and such). Last I checked you can run hover AND combat jumping if you really want. -
Quote:You know.. If you did option one.. It'd make it pretty similar to the mm detonator power... That's pretty cool..Originally Posted by Nethergoat
a couple of ideas for time bomb, garnered from a round of Modern Warfare 2 before bed:
1: make it a sticky semtex grenade. You chuck it at an enemy, if it hits it sticks to them and starts a timer, at the end of the timer it delivers its aoe payload.
2: C4. Plant it like a time bomb, but make the detonation player controlled.
I'd prefer it just get junked for something else since it's largely redundant with trip mine, but these ideas would at least make it more fun to use. -
I think if the +damage ideas for the "stealth strike" and the +dmg of targeting drone were added i'd be 100% into this set..
I just can't justify making a /dev when I don't have that build up feature..
So a sustained buildup would be awesome -
Modified version of your build: Slightly cheaper IO's Capped Ranged and AoE, Melee caped with one application of parry..
More regen.. More HP, W/Targeting Drone, Build up is up more often.
Actually looks like a really cool build that I'd run too.. Tough can be toggled on for extra resistance to S/L, or left off for a bit extra recov.
You do lose the +stealth part of fly, which since you aren't running super speed or anything isn't really doing a whole lot for you (aside from letting you get a tad closer without agro)
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Valkyrie's Executor: Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Broad Sword
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Weapon Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hack -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Acc/Dmg(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(21)
Level 1: Deflection -- S'dpty-Def/Rchg(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(3), S'dpty-EndRdx(5), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(19), S'dpty-Def(45)
Level 2: Slice -- Achilles-ResDeb%(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(7), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(27)
Level 4: Battle Agility -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(9), S'dpty-Def(9), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(15), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(17)
Level 8: Parry -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mako-Dam%(31)
Level 10: True Grit -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(13), Mrcl-Rcvry+(13), ResDam-I(43), Mrcl-Heal(46), Heal-I(48)
Level 12: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 14: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(17)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 20: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25)
Level 24: Whirling Sword -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Dmg(29), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(31), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Disembowel -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Dam%(36)
Level 28: Build Up -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit(40), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(42), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(43), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(43), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 30: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Head Splitter -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(39), Achilles-ResDeb%(39)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 38: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 41: Caltrops -- Posi-Dam%(A)
Level 44: Targeting Drone -- GSFC-Build%(A), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(46), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(46), GSFC-ToHit(48)
Level 47: Tough -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Weave -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(50), S'dpty-Def(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 0: Ninja Run
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On my shield def tank, I used one with the shield mostly as a means for recovering endurance (the increased recovery for 2 minutes is kinda nice).
It's also nice to have it as a panic button so when you DO get hit to 50% life (or less) thanks the the random number generator... You can soften any blow that may also feel the need to pass the random number generator. Considering most damage has a S/L component (and it's at least the most common types of damage) reducing incoming damage in an emergency by 50% (when it bypasses your avoidance) is a factor I personally feel is pretty important.
In regard to your build.. It's good.. AoE is at least up to 44.3% (although in my mind that's still a miniscule whole allowing those defense reducers to nail me).. Ranged is way above the cap, and you still require parry (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with, my build does this too). You are going to be spending more thanks to the obliterations and the luck of the gambler you're throwing in as well as more scirocco more performance shifter, etc (you've got a lot of orange recipes which tend to require orange salvage).
You recharge is really nice... But again you're not a clicky secondary set and Broadsword doesn't quite need as quick of recharge as say claws so that's not really neccessary (IMO)..
Another thing, since you're looking for a cheap build, I notice your build uses both numina's and Miracle's Procs (+recov and +regen/recov) those are both really expensive. If you are willing to do that route, you could take one slot away from One with the shield from the builds I presented you and add it to health and toss it on health then throws those on.. you'd get the same end recovery per second, but STILL lower use (even with targeting drone off). Your Regeneration rate is higher than mine.. But the build I present gives you more max hp.
So at a lower regen rate I'm producing 13.1 HP/S (at 182% regen)
And you're making (12.4 HP/S) (at 188% Regen)
not a huge difference, but without any self heal (and the loss of the panic button) it's kinda a big deal.
Note with the panic button even single slotted with a health IO hitting it pushes my health regen rate up to 16 hp/s for 2 minutes (For a total of 1920 HP).. when you combine that with the soft cap that makes your "panic button" function as a healing mechanism over time.
I'm not trying to say my build is like the "best bs/shield build evar."
However it is cheaper than yours to make and from a general gameplay standpoint going to be almost as effective in the putting down of everyday perps as yours (yours does have slightly more damage buffs from the slightly more expensive sets).
*edit*
Actually after looking, I see the BIG damage difference was because build up was on.
If I toggle both your Targeting drone and build up and we assume that your chance for buildup has proced and your build up, and we assume my buildup is off and my chance for build up also proced here's our damage differences:
Power DMG Yours : Mine
Hack 508.7 : 493.5
Slice 372 : 360.6
Parry 259.7 : 267.5
Whirling sword 386 (400.3) : 375.9 (if obliteration proc executes)
Head Split 795.6 : 796.8
Shield Charge 601.7 : 635.1
So damage wise we're close.. How much of an effect your increased recharge times are going to affect your attack chain (I'm sure someone else can better assess that than me!) are going to obviously make a difference.. But you still need to account for the Targeting Drone which is just leaching so much Endurance..
If you're set on your build, I'd at least consider moving the stuff in targeting drone to Build up and figuring out something else to do with slots 41 and 44..
Also teh 3% resistance to Psi is not doing anything for you, aside from costing extra money..
Chances are with your defenses, you'll avoid the psi attack.. Even with the 3% resistance to it, when it bypasses your defense it's going to hurt.. If something hits for 100 and you can reduce that to 97, that's REALLY not doing much.. I could see if you were stacking +psi resist throughout the build, but you're not.. so it seems very needless.. Same with the knock back protection from steadfast... your active defense should be more than enough to handle knock back
*edit 2* I just noticed where you say targeting drone is needed for thematic reasons.. IF that's the case then let me look at exactly what you have and see how to adjust it a bit.. -
Hrm I never thought of the slows of Spines mitigating but it really does reduce the speed they attack.. So that's a pretty big benefit as well.. and the aura of quills lets you continuously attack while you're playing with the clickies.
The only thing Much like shadow maul is the spine burst also is something easy to die during. My spines/dark learned that quite a few times.
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While your build is good you leave a gap thanks to AoE not being quite covered, yours also requires parry to make up the cap.
Your recharge times are a touch better, and your endrecovery is much higher (3.05/s vs. 2.6.s)
However your End usage is also much higher thanks to Targeting Drone (1.84/s) vs. (.97/s) (that's with grant cover running for debuff res as well). Making a net total endurance recovery with all toggles for you: 1.21/s
Net total recovery for mine: 1.63
The big draw is you've got much more recharge than my build which means you're going to be attacking much more quickly (which also means your lessened end recovery is going to be a bigger issue).
However since the BS attacks are a bit slower to animate and such, I still should be able to run a chain similar to:
Parry, hack, parry, slice, parry (hs or dis), repeat.
Also the chance of build up proc in targeting drone is nice since you've got a chance to build up every 10 seconds or something like that, but personally I still prefer build up itself recharging faster (more reliable than the proc, and can be triggered when you need it). Having gausians there and having it proc when you hit it gives you a duration of 200% damage.. which is pretty darn nasty. -
Oh quick note just looking at the alternative build i'd probably consider removing hasten for grant cover for the extra debuff protection.
Alternatively, if you don't want to spend money on the zephyr Knock back IO There is this build.. There is a hami-o that increases the resistance to defense debuff, although i'm not certain which that is really).
Still very similar gets you 36.8% melee, 48.7% ranged and 46.8% aoE (so one stack of parry caps your melee also
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Broad Sword
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hack -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Dam%(40)
Level 1: Deflection -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(7), S'dpty-Def(15), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(17), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 2: Slice -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(3), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(5), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Achilles-ResDeb%(39)
Level 4: True Grit -- H'zdH-Heal(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(42), H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx(43), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(43)
Level 6: Battle Agility -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(7), S'dpty-Def(15), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(17), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 8: Parry -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(9), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Mako-Dam%(39)
Level 10: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 14: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(34)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 18: Whirling Sword -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(19), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(19), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(23), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-End%(50)
Level 22: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(34)
Level 24: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(45)
Level 26: Disembowel -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(27), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Dam%(40)
Level 28: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(42), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Build%(45), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(46)
Level 30: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 32: Head Splitter -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(33), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(33), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Achilles-ResDeb%(37)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(36), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(36), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(36), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 38: One with the Shield -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(45)
Level 41: Boxing -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Tough -- RctvArm-EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(46), RctvArm-ResDam(46), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(50), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 47: Weave -- S'dpty-EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(48), S'dpty-Def(48), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Grant Cover -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 6: Ninja Run
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