Johnny_Butane

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if the end cost is too high it should be reduced.

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The cost isn't too high. Activation cost is the same for all of the ATs.

The end cost is standard. There's no reason at all to change the standard.

Changing end costs of attacks just for Tankers is the equivalent of one guy holding the lighbulb and two turning the ladder. The end cost isn't the problem variable here. It's the damage output.

More damage would improve endurance efficiency. That's a given. More damage would also improve survivability. Defeating enemies sooner before they inflict damage would greatly improve Tanker survivability. It's the long, drawn out fights in the lower levels that are the result of their lower damage output, that tire Tankers and expose them to damage longer.

If you're going to identify end use and survivability of Tankers in lower levels as being problems, then attack the cause of these issues. Both of these can be traced to spamming attacks over and over in long fights that are the direct result of Tanker damage being low.



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Tankers do need more survivability at the lower levels. They don't reach the ability to tank until the 20's or 30's


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So? My Controller couldn't control much pre 30's either. None of the ATs, save Brutes and Scrappers, are that hot before level 25.

That's more an issue with Training Enhancers vs DOs and SOs and how slots are distributed across levels, in my opinion.

I'm looking at long term playability. A character will only be lower level for so long. They'll be at 50 much longer, especially if the devs are going to be introducing more post 50 character progression (Universal Enhancement slots, IOs, etc).

With MA and the changes to the leveling curve, levels 1-25 isn't the long road it once was.

So yeah, for the couple hours my Tankers were pre level 25, endurance and role were a pain. But for a couple of years I've found Tanker offense at levels 40-50 to be lacking.


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This is only true at the upper levels and of certain Tanker sets.


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All of the Tanker Primaries have excellent solo survivability in my experience.

The sets with less survivability, are making trade offs-for some other advantage that the sets with better survivability don't have.

In the lower levels, solo I have less problems with survivability and more with being able to inflict damage before my endurance runs out. On teams at these same levels, my issue is more or less the same.

If I was to rank the problems I have with Tankers at lower levels, running out of endurance is top of the list. Lacking damage is second. Needing to be much tougher doesn't even rate.

If they improved Tanker damage, that would help with the endurnace issues, since the attacks would become more efficient. Tankers spend the same endurance per attack as any melee AT, yet Tanker attacks deal less damage. It's not the problem of the cost of the attacks. Every AT pays the same. The problem is the Tanker must spam more of them to defeat the same mob. Damage is the problem.

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At lower levels L1-30, Tankers do not enjoy those benefits. It's one of the ultimate ironies of this game that the most challenging content in the game is at the lowest levels.

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I'll tell you straight up that if you find all content on Invincible not challenging, you can always use the challenge settings on arcs to debuff yourself, deactivate your enhancements and buff the enemies.

Me, I find Invincible so challenging with my Tankers I can't even complete most arcs on it. But not for lack of survivability.

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To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.

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As I just said, damage would help address the endurance issues.



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Add a percentage chance equal to a scrapper's Critical Hit for all mobs affected by the Gauntlet effect from a Tier I or Tier II tanker attack to suffer 30% of the base damage suffered by the original target. The effect would apply to Tier I and Tier II attacks only and not be enhanceable. This would allow for more a group fighting feel to tanker combat and help tankers with soloing at all levels. More importantly it would help tankers through the lower levels where they seem to be found wanting.

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This would almost not be noticable.

A chance equal to a Scrapper's Critical Hit to deal an extra 30% on the base damage of a Tier 1 or Tier 2 attack?

Scrapper's Critical is 5% chance against Minions or below, 10% against critters above.

Jab deals 30.3 base. 30% of that is 9.09.

Your asking for a 5% chance to deal that every Jab attack?
That averages to something like only increasing jab from 30.3 to 30.7545

Whoop de frikkin' do.

Punch, same deal. The numbers and chances are just too tiny. It's pointless.

5% or 10% for Critical hit works because A) It's on every attack, not just two, or maybe even one, in the attack chain and B) Because it's 100% of the base.




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Tankers don't need more survivability.

They are more than survivable enough to complete any solo content in the game.

On teams, if they were any more survivable, there really wouldn't be a need for any of the buff/debuff ATs.

More survivability along with better taunting, are the last two things Tankers need.


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I haven't known him to use that power if you're in melee.

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He does. Oh, believe me, he does.

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Since i10, most of the time enemies will use their ranged attacks even when in close. Sometimes you get lucky and they get locked into a cycle of not using them, but other times they'll just spam them point blank if they feel like it.



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we're generally a bit DPS challenged

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But they said:

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The Tanker is a devastating hand to hand combatant

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http://www.cityofheroes.com/game_inf...rchetypes.html

Guess they're not.



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Question 1: Nemesis and the aftermath of Brass Monday.

*Contains spoilers for the CoH novels*

Near the end of Brass Monday, Maiden Justice tracks down Nemesis' subway lair. She finds an old man arguing with a "robot" about the flaws in their plan. Maiden Justice bursts in, but not until after it's implied to the reader the robot may be the one in charge. The robot escapes, and she takes the old man into custody who then later confesses to the police that he's Nemesis.

So my question is, was the old man Nemesis and he later escaped with the help of his automatons, or was the robot actually Nemesis and the old man was just taking the fall?


Question 2: The Olympics and professional sporting events.

In the CoX universe, do they still hold the Olympics, the Super Bowl, etc, and if so, how have they been affected by the fairly wide spread phenomena of super humans?


Question 3: Laws and rights for artificial life forms and planned organisms.

Do sentient robots, like Citadel, have "human rights" and can they do things like hold US citizenship? How does the law adapt to a clone/engineered human who's birthdate says they're only a couple of years old, despite being physiologically an adult, who wants to buy a six pack of beer without being denied for being "under 21"?



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I tried to pull Reichsman to the other AVs as they spawned (I didn't know their order

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Every time I've run it, Vanessa was called first, but after that it seemed different every time.

Last time for sure, it went Vanessa then Gyrfalcon, Countess and then Nemesis.


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Post deleted by Moderator 08

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Cnadlejack it totally not racist.

Also you should typo Candlejack for saf

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I'm going to need more rope.



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One other side note, the ground punch that Reichsman does, I WANT IT!

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Would make a nice alternate for Foot Stomp if the devs ever do power customization properly and allow changes to melee attacks.


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Because perhaps those reasons don't exist in the eyes of the devs/other players?

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Tell that to the Domms.


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Not run this unfinished and poorly conceived TF?

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Do you ever actually just offer positive good advise? Bitter and angry much?

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That is the best advice I can give in this case.

Don't run poorly designed content and don't validate the developers crapping on Tankers.



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Cannot agree more. Every time I turn around there's another "end game" type event/raid/TF whatever that craps on defense. Like the totally forget we have a Defensive primary. We aren't just a bag of HP.

What the hell, they'll probably just provide a "special" inspiration that will enable a blaster to have a better chance at surviving than all our primary powers combined.

And yes, once again, I am disappointed in the devs, and bitter. This is stupid.

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Tankers are now in the unique position of being the only AT with a non-offensive primary and without force multipliers (buffs/debuffs).

Dominators were the other one, but in Castle's own words, they effectively have two primaries now.

So the question I have, is if it's not OK for Dominators because it affected their popularity, how they "felt" to play and how they held up against similar ATs, why is it OK for Tankers despite the same reasons existing?



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That's been there since launch, AFAIK. I've always been bugged by its motionlessness.


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Typical.

They could at least fix it's position.



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Here's something that's an error that may be a hint of things to come. It's it's not new, I've never noticed it before.

In Talos, as soon as you get off the tram there's a bus station near Citadel.

On the other side of the street from the bus station there's a grey building. When you get close to that building you'll see there's a billboard on the side of the building. But it's sitting on the ground as opposed to being higher.

If you examine the bill board you'll see it's sectioned, like those "rotating" billboards you see around cities. I suspect this billboard will be animated at some point and shift between three different signs.

The sign is currently showing a Blackwell billboard, and I can see what looks like the Vanguard billboard in behind with Crey possibly being the third side.

If so, that's a nice little touch to bring some more life to the city.

A big screen in Blyde Square would help too.


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I was hoping this would be about the Romans using the coffee drink emote.

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Historical contamination and time travel go hand in hand.

Any number of villains would be trying to sell ancient Romans some nectar procured from the god Starbucks.


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Is this just an animation change or are they really starting their buffs before being aggroed? If it's the former, that's nifty. If it's the latter, it's a bug. The faction was designed to not have things like leadership buffs and mez resistance up from the get-go. Can someone with a Power Analyzer power double-check?

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The Surgeons are cycling their AoE heals before being aggroed, but I don't see the LTs or Bosses using Shout Command. As for their Shield defenses, I can't say with all the ToHit most of my characters have.


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The idea that a scrapper or a tanker could run with their defensive toggles off is rather stupid and buried in hyperbole.

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Well I just did for upwards of four minutes with two stormies on my Invul. No defensive toggles. Hit DP once and a little bit of Sands of Mu in for good measure. Could have gone forever if it wasn't boring.


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I suspect it's related to this here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=1&fpart=1


Seems they're making tweaks to animations, behaviors and AI.


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As for cookie cutter = lol

we had

50 Fire tank
45 fire scrapper
50 Ill/kin
50 ill/storm
50 fire/fire blaster
50 MA/SR scrapper
47 grav/storm

very little debuffs , very little buffs.

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Storm is massive debuffs. Assuming the stormies were doing their job, your Tanker may as well have been running with their defensive toggles off the entire fight because the AV was buried in -ToHit. Not to mention likely two applications of Freezing Rain were decreasing the AV's Resistance and Defense.

Then there's Kinetics, which is one of the best sets in the game for tipping the balance in a largely ST encounter. Not only was it decreasing the AV's damage, it was slowing the AV and how fast he could attack, while at the same time speeding up the attacks of the entire team, buffing their damage and improving their recovery.

And that team AT makeup is pretty much my definition of a cookie cutter team run.

One Tanker, two or three damage dealers, the rest filled out with force multipliers (ie, Controllers and Defenders).



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maybe get yourself a bubbler, and some CM love and have at it. Try some different team makeup's and I'm sure there are quite a few options that will work.


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In my opinion, the minute the tank needs support to tank the finale, that invalidates Tankers.

In other words, if this AV needs someone bubbled/buffed up and being healed to tank it, why not just get a Scrapper? Or a Brute.

Which is the core of the issue I have with developers and how they treat and regard Tankers.

They'll penalize a Tanker with lower damage because of their ability to tank for a team, but hypocritically they won't hesitate to try to nullify or reduce that niche with enemies who circumvent that survivability advantage.

If a Scrapper can't tank an AV without support, and a Tanker can't tank the same AV without support, but both can with support (and such is true; already I've watched Scrappers tank this TF with support) then what is the point of the Tanker?

None. None at all.

They have no problem removing the need and advantage of a Tanker, while at the same time refusing to stop punishing the Tanker with crappy damage for that "advantage".

If this was on the eve of giving Tankers more damage or something, making them less sturdy by default would fly with me. But I doubt that's on the horizon. So what we have here are the devs creating yet another enemy to crap on Tanker defenses while at the same time continuing to crap on their offense as well.
That doesn't fly with me.



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Not run this unfinished and poorly conceived TF?

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Do you ever actually just offer positive good advise? Bitter and angry much?

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That is the best advice I can give in this case.

Don't run poorly designed content and don't validate the developers crapping on Tankers.



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What can we do to survive Reichsman?

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Not run this unfinished and poorly conceived TF?


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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>

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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.

And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.


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