Imaginary_EU

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Rads true defence has allways been shield + enervation field + good self heal.

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And Lingering Rad.

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Ofcourse, but I counted that as an attack. You could also include holds and thing like that.

Add scrappers to damage mitation too, in PvP they should take the taunt from their primary. It works like a charm.

Rad is still the best set for 1 on 1s. The important thing about RI for duals is normally the defence debuff, cause controllers dont have AIM or stuff like that that makes them hit. The extra defence was just a nice side effect.
Rads true defence has allways been shield + enervation field + good self heal.

The set that has the biggest problems is stormies, cause they have to rely heavily on their debuff from hurricane, since they have no self heal.

I dont know, but Im gonna puff a [censored] load of lucks just in case.

The reason I get so mad about threads like this is that it gives IMO a completly wrong picture of PvP. It quickly just becomes an excuse for loosing. You had the best build, there is so much more to it.

Some examples:
Scrapper epics. The normal solution is allways body mastery for PvP.

This isnt quite the only truth, weapons mastery has very very good uses, because they get web granade which has -jump and -fly. Giving you melee toon a great chance to get into melee and get the kill unless the person your fighting also has superspeed.

This is an example of game knowlegde, a person who only has 14 days to learn wouldnt learn things like this. He simply havent seen enough of the game to make judgement calls like this.

Movement / reflexes. Getting that extra hit cause you have better reflexes or jumping in a way your opponent cant catch up with you. Being able to land right next to someone with bu used on the way down and ready to attack. This will often deside if your target can flee or you get the kill, or if you can safely run and your opponent misses the kill. Well using your own build, this can be taught in about 14 days.

Imagination: A good PvPer can use every single option he has and use them in different ways.

An example normally its a very bad idea to open with total focus if your a blapper, cause the animation time can easily get you killed. But sometimes wearing the target down from range isnt enough if there is a good healer arround. So you need to open with the hardest hitter you have in order to have enough damage to finish a person off in this case total focus. Its adapting with the weapons you have at your disposal. For an empath fort should allmost allways be given to the biggest damage dealer, but sometimes its worth giving it to another defender or a controller if they are very squishie. Its knowing when to break the normal attack paterns and think of something new.

The thing I think Chives is saying is that you can with some good guidence preforme really really well in PvPzones if you have a good build like spines regen, slotted for PvP.
What Im am saying is that there is a difference. In fight in the arena this is often the difference of winning 15 - 1 or 7 - 3. Yes you can quickly learn to win 7-3, but you really need skill to win 15 - 1 instead.

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Comming to think of it Imaginary since I have an Ill/Rad getting on for level 50 we may as well arena on test when ive finished.

And after all this, if I beat you, does that mean there is skill in PvP here or not?

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Hard to say I have never seen you play, but odds are on me since Im a seasoned PvPer. And odds are I would have heard about you before resently.

If you beat me, I would have to agree that there is limited skill involved in PvP.

Lets do it on test server, my ill / rad is build for pure PvE now and is quite gimped for PvP. But lets meet with our best dual builds on the test server and see what happends. Ill give you one advantage Ill post the build Im gonna use.


01) --> Spectral Wounds==> Acc(1) Acc(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(5) Rechg(7)
01) --> Radiant Aura==> Heal(1) Heal(7) Heal(9) Rechg(9) Rechg(11) EndRdx(11)
02) --> Blind==> Acc(2) Acc(13) Hold(13) Rechg(15) Rechg(15) Rechg(17)
04) --> Radiation Infection==> TH_DeBuf(4) TH_DeBuf(17) TH_DeBuf(19) DefDeBuf(39) DefDeBuf(39) EndRdx(40)
06) --> Accelerate Metabolism==> EndMod(6) EndMod(19) EndMod(21) Rechg(21) Rechg(23) Rechg(23)
08) --> Superior Invisibility==> EndRdx(8) EndRdx(25) EndRdx(25)
10) --> Enervating Field==> EndRdx(10) EndRdx(27)
12) --> Hurdle==> Jump(12) Jump(27) Jump(29)
14) --> Swift==> Run(14)
16) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(16) Jump(29) Jump(31)
18) --> Phantom Army==> Dmg(18) Dmg(31) Dmg(31) Rechg(33) Rechg(33) Rechg(33)
20) --> Lingering Radiation==> Acc(20) Acc(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(36) EndRdx(36)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(36) EndMod(37)
24) --> Super Jump==> Jump(24) EndRdx(37)
26) --> Spectral Terror==> Acc(26) Acc(37) EndRdx(39)
28) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(28)
30) --> Hasten==> Rechg(30) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
32) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(32) Run(42)
35) --> Assault==> EndRdx(35)
38) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(38) EndRdx(42) TH_Buf(42) TH_Buf(43) TH_Buf(43)
41) --> Power Blast==> Acc(41) Acc(43) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(46)
44) --> Temp Invulnerability==> DmgRes(44) DmgRes(46) DmgRes(46) EndRdx(48) EndRdx(50)
47) --> Power Boost==> Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(48)
49) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(49) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)

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Well said!, speaking about counters for pentad. Thats why I kinda ended up thinking you need a kin troller and an empath defender for the best team. Since this is the only solution that offers counters to most things.

Great fun tonight!, but I still like those 8 man matches. Its different and requires different tactics. If I cant get a team for next monday, Ill show up and offer myself to the first team that want my blaster.

Here is the build he used.

01) --> Lunge==> Acc(1) Acc(43) Dmg(43) Dmg(46) Dmg(46)
01) --> Fast Healing==> Heal(1)
02) --> Spine Burst==> Acc(2) Acc(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(40) Dmg(42) Rechg(43)
04) --> Reconstruction==> Heal(4) Heal(5) Heal(5) Rechg(39) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
06) --> Build Up==> Rechg(6) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) TH_Buf(37) TH_Buf(39) TH_Buf(39)
08) --> Impale==> Acc(8) Acc(9) Dmg(9) Dmg(36) Dmg(37) Rechg(37)
10) --> Quick Recovery==> EndMod(10) EndMod(11) EndMod(11)
12) --> Dull Pain==> Heal(12) Heal(13) Heal(13) Rechg(15) Rechg(15) Rechg(23)
14) --> Assault==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Integration==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(17) EndRdx(23)
18) --> Quills==> Acc(18) Acc(19) Dmg(19) Dmg(21) Dmg(21)
20) --> Resilience==> DmgRes(20)
22) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(22)
24) --> Hurdle==> Jump(24) Jump(25) Jump(25)
26) --> Ripper==> Acc(26) Acc(27) Dmg(27) Dmg(34) Dmg(36) Rechg(36)
28) --> Instant Healing==> Heal(28) Heal(29) Heal(29) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
30) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(30) Jump(31)
32) --> Throw Spines==> Acc(32) Acc(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Rechg(34)
35) --> Revive==> Rechg(35)
38) --> Super Jump==> Jump(38)
41) --> Hasten==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Focused Accuracy==> Rechg(44) Rechg(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46)
47) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(47) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(48)

He couldnt remember what level he took the powers but that doesnt really matter, he is lvl 48.

Make it lvl 22 and you have a deal. PvP on lower levels is a bit lame, unless its teams.

My point is that there is game knowlegde as skill so we just take the same power set and you figure a build out and I figure a build out. Builds have to suite playstyle as well.

Im up for any ATs that can actually kill each other.

I suggest ice / dev blasters, cause I wanna level one of those at some point for sirens.

I should be ready in about a week.

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I've seen his planned build and you've seen mine. Mine, to be honest is quite far off a PvP build.

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He used his PvE builds, he didnt respec yet. My point is there is loads more to PvP that just build and basic tactics.

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You should know better Chives. Balance isnt in 1on1's.

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...Imag was suggesting someone to meet him in the arena, I assumed he wanted a 1v1. Didn't he?

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Problem is chives, Columna(NBs spines / regen) could beat Imaginary, your lost.

Now my question is, does NB have more skill or did he just get lucky?

After reading that some teames can take up to 30sec - 1 min to clear a group. I would agree put some duration in there.

But if you team with ok players dont, there is no need.

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Flavour Of The Month - its kinda catchy

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How can spines be flavour of the month?, FotM should be those build people allways make, not those that are the best that people never choice. There arent that many spines arround. DM and katana are still the most popular, closely followed by MA.
Same with stalkers, everyone makes ninja blade eventhough its suppar. I think Flavour of the month should be what people actually makes not what is best.

[/ QUOTE ]Have you been observing the scrapper boards lately? Half of the treads about spines, it's definitely FotM (Which, btw, means the thing that is currently 'in', not the things people always make).

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Yes but how many spines do you actually see ingame? Or ice / nrg?

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It doesn't exist, stop fooling yourselves.

PvP is so damn easy in this game it isn't even funny. Get a good build, get one or two tips and start having Arena matches/stepping into PvP zones. I give it about a week before you know practically everything you need to know.

Tactics? Teamwork? Co-ordination?

Get Teamspeak and your troubles are solved. Or take a typing class so you can type quickly in Teamchat, maybe make a few binds.

Skill?

What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?


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So? What you're saying is that some guy who has just bought a lvl 50 toon on eBay with the exact same build as you would stand a 50/50 chance against you (after a weeks practice maybe?)?


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Think it really just shows that most the time its not so much skill that wins fights but lack of skill that losses em. Oh and after a week of practice? Yup, why not? If you have a PvP mindset and do nothing other then PvP for a week solidly there isnt much reason why you cant be as good as anyone else, seems to me thats the point of the thread, to suggest that it doesnt take long to do, oh and to get people to argue over an old and well debated point.

Suggestion for nxt post on PvP skill: "PvP = BF,Tab,f,1,4,Respite,2,6,Respite,4,2,"oh [censored]",luck,luck,luck,luck,respite,3,6,2,gloat over corpse on broadcast." .

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Im getting tired of this, wanna meet me in the arena to show me your correct or are you afraid.

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Have to disagree with this, as someone who plays an MM in Zonal PvP (mainly Sirens with my MM). Whenever the villains get pushed back to their base due to overwhelming numbers of heroes in the zone, I usually always log to get my Rob/Dark MM - there's no better AT for a beach-head defence/counterattack. Even in a sub-par build (waiting to respec at 42), I can usually cause havoc amongst the heroes camping out in the water (taking out/disabling their support, debuffing their attack, moving on to downing Blasters and Blappers) - to the point where I quickly become a high-priority target. Yes, 2-hit kills suck, but I normally kill far more than kill me - and I7 changes to MMs could make this a much less common occurence. I think a coordinated group of MMs could be devastating, but there just aren't the numbers available to make that a reality; failing that, good support from Thermal/Son Corruptors really help in making MMs less easy targets.

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The problem isnt that MMs dont have uses, but against really good teams they are just cannon fodder. Good teames have buffed blasters that will just kill you from range through shields. A MM against really good teams are just a liability right now, later on with the changes I would imagine the get many uses, but right now I dont really see them on teams.

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Flavour Of The Month - its kinda catchy

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How can spines be flavour of the month?, FotM should be those build people allways make, not those that are the best that people never choice. There arent that many spines arround. DM and katana are still the most popular, closely followed by MA.
Same with stalkers, everyone makes ninja blade eventhough its suppar. I think Flavour of the month should be what people actually makes not what is best.

Tonight is pentad night. Or 5uper or 5 star or what ever you wanna call it.

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- Most useful AT's in a CoV PvP team? Corruptors and stalkers seem to be the main ones. Just how effective are Dom's though as they seem quite weak in PvP compared to trollers?


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Doms are good but require heavy support and a good player behing the keyboard. Doms are suppar compared to trollers.
Thing is dominators are very very squishie and need teams to back em up. In team PvP you want the dom on special assigments, like toggle dropping and slows and holds. So I would recommend going ice / nrg or mind / nrg for the best team build. You can skip that and make a damage build with fire / fire, but again this build will require heavy support.

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- Target identification. Who are the big threats on hero teams and how should teams target them? I've seen some people will have a 'targetter' and he will pick targets with rest of the team targetting through him. Is this effective or does it leave teams a little inflexible?


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In your normal PvPzone fights its not needed, its more like kill what you see. But for team matches in the arena its very important to have a targetter cause you will never kill anything against a good team without.
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- In large raids, 10 people plus, how should teams be coordinated? Should they be 8 man, should they be divided by AT or balanced?


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Ballance allways, In PvP you need buffing and its darn hard to buff without being on the same team. Also how are you gonna heal? Allthou making a MM cell might be good for defending bases. But this cell should split up and join the other teams as soon as the opponents get a foothold in the base.

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- Killer powersets on CoV. I've seen Ice/Ice Corruptors in operation, I know stone brutes resistance to toggle drops coupled with a kinetic work well but what are the other effective sets? Force Field MM's seem particularly effective in defending raids/PvP zones but are quite poor in attacking raids as they're normally unable to summon.


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Get a MM with the force bubble for both, its darn annoying. Besides that never use MMs in an attack. MMs arent really good for zone PvP, they are too squishie, and with their low hp they are getting 2 hit killed way too fast. Even with good buffing and healing their hp are too low. But they can be cool seeing as they have tons of damage.
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- CoV Inherents. These are great compared to CoH ones but the best ones seem to come into play in PvP quite rarely. Rage and Scourge are great and make a big difference but how often is Domination utilised? I've found that Dom's have a tough time filling the bar in PvP.


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Scourge is one of the best inheirents in the game, only containment is better. Domination is the reason you need really really good support for your doms, if you dont have good support they will die. Its imposible to build up good fury against good players, unless you use PvE.



Stuff in general.
A PvP team consists of a main support team that can support it self, meaning not get killed using heals and buffs. And have enough support to buff the [censored] out of 2 damage dealers who will allmost get all the kills. These 2 build are what is gonna be your damage. That the most simple team plan I can tell ya.

A good support team for villains consists of 1-2 thermals, 1 kin, 1 sonic. The combination of heals and good shields means they really cant be killed very easily. Then you add a cold for some debuffs. This team would make an excelent support team for 2 stalkers and 1 dom. You also might wanna get a MM with forcebubble to disrupt the connection between the other teams healers and buffers so its easier to take em down.

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No, because the solo tank is unlikely to kill the solo blaster given his low damage output. I can confirm that with an nrg/nrg blaster my regen scrapper will only win if he has IH available. If he doesn't then he loses. I had the opportunity to run some tests with a tame blaster in Warburg.

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I want the same fight. The nrg/nrg blaster vs. my regener. I wont use IH.
I can easily beat blasters without IH in 1on1's and have done it loads of times.

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We can try that sometime when Im online, Im interested myself because I havent done much arena yet with my blaster. Arent you Columna from inner monkey?

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That he is.

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Imho we are as good in PvP as the French its just that we havent yet pulled all the best players in one team to go down the test server and have a proper 8vs8. Maybe i am wrong this is just my opinion.

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I think it's time we put something together TG. Seeing that second hand heroes like PDs are starting to think they can actually do something else than function as a door mat for us real heroes, I think we should show them their proper place.... below us.

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About bloody time. , but I think you will find it very very hard to prove us wrong.

Any evening except monday.

Kin, great synergy.

Make a build with bonesmasher

After that Ill reply.

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No, that takes better understanding of the game by your logics.

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Not exactly - you might have a perfect understanding of how the game works, but that doesn't necessarily translate to knowing how other players will use their builds against you. Knowing how the game works AND knowing how other builds work in a PvP setting, and then applying that into making numerous builds that all work to a high level (or that just fulfil the intended purpose) is what is required - as well as an ability to translate that into results in PvP. You can have all the natural reflexes and reactions in the world, but with a poor game-knowledge, that won't translate well to PvP; the opposite is also true. I'd argue that both are needed to be truly skilled at PvP, but that's my take on it.

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But then how can you agree with Hobo that the game doesnt require skill? Arent what you just mentioned skill?
Another thing about skill, how come nightbringer can destroy my ice / nrg blaster, but I can destroy all the other scrappers I have meet? Do they lag game knowlegde or lag of natural reflexes?, In my opinion its both and something else that is called imagination. Thinking about different ways to attack me, running from BU and AIM is that reflexes or game knowlegde? Or is that simply being smart? NB is one of the few scrapper I have fought that actually runs when he hears those two comming up. And dont tell me that your casual player with a lvl 50 dont know what AIM and BU does. I will call it PvE syndrome and alot of players cant make the mental switch to PvP.

IMO 3 things are essential for PvPing well.

Game knowlegde, a field where Im really strong.

Reflexes, or movement. A field where Im your casual player. I had to give up on playing some platform games cause my natural reflexes arent good enough. And I really suck at games like counter strike. I would be lost without the follow button.

Imagination, thinking in counters, you may know all the facts about power and PvP, but there is still being able to use that knowlegde in the heat of the battle. You could call it tactical understanding. A field where Im at my best.

Perhaps its cause lag the reflex part you can still be good at PvP that turns Hobojack to saying that there is no skill in the game, I dont know.