Hydrophidian
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Posts
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Quote:Thanks!Originally Posted by Deebs
great party !
It was a lot of fun. Thanks to everyone who attended!
And now available:
Robotica Trading Cards!
and..
Audio goodies, including the Robotica Haiku winners!
Enjoy and stay super! -
Today is the day! \o/
As for how the Robot Rumbles are going, with only a couple of hours left for voting in the semi-finals, Data and R2-D2 are neck and neck!
Meanwhile, Optimus Prime is kicking Bender's patooty.
Will Bender be able to make a last minute comeback?
No... no, probably not. -
Quote:Really? I hadn't noticed.Originally Posted by Venture
I don't, since that's the reason I haven't been around so much.
What I did notice was the precipitous drop in AE activity immediately after I16's launch, which has persisted ever since. And will, I have no doubt, continue until the XP situation is addressed.
If you'd like to predict when all these people--the great numbers who just coincidentally decided to go do other things the same day I16 went live--are going to be coming back to the feature, feel free.
As a marketeer, I'd be particularly interested in this prediction.
Yes, you've made your preferences clear in this thread and others. But this isn't about you. The model for the feature you prefer is not the model we have, it is not the model the developers decided to go with, it is not the model they are currently trying to make work.Quote:I could not possibly care less how much XP a player gets from an MA arc. Frankly, it should have been zero from the beginning.
I understand you don't think their model can work. But that's you and, again, this isn't about you. Apparently, the developers aren't willing to throw in the towel just yet.
It is still currently a design goal for the feature to be a leveling alternative. The developers have good reason for it to be one. If it's going to be successful in that regard, I believe the rewards need to be at least comparable to regular content. I think I16 has demonstrated that.
Yes, you're okay with that. But this isn't about you. What you want is not what the developers want. You have a view of the feature that the developers apparently do not share. They could've refrained from adding XP to the system, but they added it. They have reason for AE to be a leveling alternative, they've advertised it as such, and continue to express the desire for it to remain so.Quote:I'd rather the system was used only by people who care about content and not by people looking for yet another Easy Mode. If that meant restricting it to a niche I'm OK with that.
So what you want, in terms of the present model, is completely and totally irrelevant. You're talking about an entirely different model altogether, one that was apparently abandoned in development. Everyone else is discussing the existing model, and whether or not it can survive and thrive in the game.
You don't think it can. Okay. Duly noted.
I and others believe it can function as a leveling alternative and would like it to be so. So, if it's all the same to you, I'd like to discuss the current model and design goals, not yours. I really don't care about yours at all. Mostly because, if that's all I wanted MA to be, well, I have that now. I'd like it to be more than that.
Oh, and yes, players can care about content and advancing characters. I happen to be one of them. As are, I suspect, many people posting in this thread. It is precisely because I care about content that I'd like MA to offer a viable leveling alternative.
And I also think it's important to note that the nerf most people here are complaining about--the custom critter nerf--didn't really impact the AE abusers at all. The custom group nerf and SSK did that. So, no, I disagree that these reductions were necessary. That I think they were entirely unnecessary is one of the reasons why I continue to be against them.
The group nerf I'm fine with, because, yes, I think it directly impacted abuses, while still allowing me to create a group without all the ranks included, should I ever have a reason to do so (and I've had reason in the past).
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Re: CO
CO launched well before I16 went live. The dramatic drop in AE activity I'm citing happened immediately after I16 went live, many days after CO launched. So... the drop in activity I'm referring to has nothing to do with CO's launch. Anyone who went off to play CO probably did so before the AE activity drop occurred. Even if that weren't the case, they most definitely did not all suddenly decide on the same day, September 16th, to go play CO. Anyone continuing to assert this notion is being ridiculous.
Furthermore, judging by market shifts, the players didn't leave the game itself. They simply left AE and returned to regular content. If all those people had got up and left to play another game, the effect on the market would've been dramatic. -
Quote:I see them as significant nerfs. I've experienced them, both as a player and as an architect. They are, to me, significant nerfs. And, again, I'd say that's very likely the majority view. Especially considering that I, at the outset, probably had lower expectations than most. The progress in AE was sluggish pre-I16. It's worse now. Because of significant nerfs.Originally Posted by LaserJesus
By my experience, most arcs that had a group of custom critters usually had all three of the ranks. I doubt that specific change affected most people as much you think it did. Especially as some threw up their hands and gave up on AE even before I16 launched and had time to adjust to the changes and have time to see how they play out.
I understand you don't define them as such. I do. And more importantly: so does most everyone else.
You haven't answered the question.Quote:Considering pre-I16, the common perception going around was that everyone in AE was farming for XP, if we're going by that metric, then I doubt we'll see the Atlas MA building crammed with people. However, I don't really think that was the design intention, was it?
If the mass exodus from AE immediately after I16's release was not caused solely by I16, when do you expect the population using the feature to rise again by any noticeable degree? How long do you think it will take?
Just... don't.Quote:You're operating under the assumption that it's all or nothing
And if this is true, then we should see a noticeable upswing in MA activity sometime in the near future. When do you think that will be?Quote:What I'm saying is that levels of inactivity in this forum, and lack of plays on current arcs likely involves more factors than just reduced rewards.
Yes. Overwhelmingly so.Quote:Sure, it's probably the main motivating factor
Yah, actually I can do just that. Because I think the number of people who stopped using it because they were "simply doing other things" is negligible.Quote:but you can not discount the fact that there are some like myself who were simply doing other things.
If I'm right, there will be no upswing in activity until the XP situation is addressed.
If you're right, there should be some sort of noticeable upswing in the near future, when all those people return from whatever it is that they were doing.
So, when do you think that's going to happen?
Oh, no, I totally got the point. I just thought it was silly. Lemme be clear: I'm not buying the guilt trip. Sorry.Quote:Way to completely miss the point.
Way to completely disregard why I've stopped using it.Quote:If everyone stops using it now, then you're only helping it towards it's grave.
I reject the guilt-ridden notion that I'm "helping it towards its grave". I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that before. This is the point I understood you to be making in your last response. I find it no less silly now than I found it then.
I'm not responsible for what the developers decide to do, so suggesting that I'm somehow responsible for the demise of MA is just absurd. It's like blaming a film's failure on the audiences who didn't go to see it, instead of identifying why they didn't go see it and putting the blame there, where it belongs.
I'm just a consumer, a customer, like every other player. If the developers want me to use a feature, I have to consider it to be worth using.
I do not consider AE to be a viable leveling alternative, so no, I'm not going to use it for leveling. Not using it for leveling is how I convey the fact that I don't find it to be a viable leveling alternative.
Now you're suggesting I should continue to use the AE as a leveling alternative... to send the message that I don't find it usable as a leveling alternative?
Noop. Ain't gunna do that. That sounds bass-ackwards to me.
Here's all the hard data the devs should need: after I16 was launched, MA usage went into the gutter.Quote:Don't get me wrong. I think the AE is in trouble. I think it needs help. However, I think that everyone posting that they think that AE's being hurt by the changes to XP, and giving up on playing it is not going to solve anything. Feedback only got us this far in beta. Giving up is only going to ensure that the feature doesn't get the attention it deserves. In order to prove our point we're going to need to come back with hard data.
It ain't rocket science.
If they can't see that in their data, we have bigger problems than having one feature on the ropes. -
Quote:This is nitpicking semantics. You can call it whatever you want. It was a significant change that resulted in an XP reduction.Originally Posted by LaserJesus
First and foremost, the only significant nerf was to custom critter XP. In my eyes, the change that you need all three regular ranks to get full XP is really an exploit fix.
Sounds like a nerf to me. I'd hazard to guess that it'd sound like a nerf to most everyone. And that it may have been an "exploit fix" does not preclude it from being a nerf.
Granted, it was a nerf I didn't mind so much... but it's still a nerf, a significant one, and it came along with the custom critter nerf, which was pretty significant as well.
Hence, "significant nerfs". But whatever you choose to call them, the result is the same: mass abandonment of the feature.
Oh, okay.Quote:Secondly, while I highly doubt anyone claims that nerfs to critter XP didn't drive anyone away, but the sole cause? Doubtful.
So when do you expect significant numbers to return to the feature? No new story content was added in I16, so it should be fairly soon, right? A week? Two? A month?
When do you think?
This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like your prediction on when MA activity will be back to being at least in the ballpark of pre-I16 levels.
The day before I16, AE was in use by a great many people. The day the issue launched, usage plummeted. It wasn't CO that launched that day. It wasn't any other game. It was I16. And the usage has remained diminished since.
I predict it's going to stay that way until this XP situation is revisited.
Let's see your counter-prediction.
Oh-- wow. So... if I just use AE as a leveling alternative, everyone else would come back to it?Quote:If you accept that if the feature isn't used, it will languish, then you can not stop using it just because of a 25% or less reduction in experience to custom critters, or the possibility that an arc might have an improperly put together custom group that doesn't have all ranks. If you do, then you're just creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.
C'mon now. -
Quote:Thanks!Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
Oh my gawd, that is an awesome poster!
--
Just a couple days away now! -
Quote:Actually, it started with merits. A lot of people started exemping down to farm merits in flashbacks, TFs, etc., and that meant less people playing in the 50 range, so prices on purples started to go up.Originally Posted by SmegHead
The whole purple shortage started with AE.
Then AE came along and made the situation a whole lot worse. -
Also, I'll point out to those who've posted here: this may be a good opportunity for you to host a run through your own arc.
If you're on Virtue, come on down to the D during the event and let us know that you're looking for a team to run your arc (or that you're looking to join such a team).
You could also post in our forum to let people know you'll be around for a run.
We'll link to the Robotica MA thread on our forums when it's up (should be posted tonight or tomorrow). That would be a great place to start organizing something. -
How I would like to utilize the MA feature:
- As a means to create unique SG-focused story content.
- As a source of new content to play with my 50s.
- As a leveling alternative.
- As a means to publish arcs for general play.
Before I16, leveling in AE was slow (I'm talking about regular play, not farms). For my own comfort, it was almost too slow. I turned to AE only when there was a span of regular counter (RC) I really wanted to circumvent. Other than that, I stuck with the greater rewards of RC: patrol XP, mission bonuses and arc bonuses.
Post-I16, I don't find AE to be viable as a leveling alternative at all. Most MA content features custom critters and the XP for them has been severely reduced. That, on top of the already lackluster XP gain, is more of a hit than I'm willing to take just to try something new. If anyone thinks I'm going to spend a limited resource (time) dealing with more difficult scenarios for only a tiny fraction of the usual reward... they're very much mistaken. I'm also not going to sit there sifting through thousands of arcs (using clunky and limited search functionality) to find the precious few that don't use custom critters. That's time that could be spent playing.
I don't think I'm alone in this view. Based on everything I've seen since I16's launch, I'm actually inclined to think it's the majority view. Which would mean most players are now using MA only sporadically, if at all. Which means arcs aren't getting played. Which means authors are going to be less inclined to bother publishing... because why bother creating something for players that few, if any, are going to experience?
Creating a solid arc requires an investment of time, creative energy, and patience. It can also be, with the various limitations and bugs involved, quite a frustrating experience. Putting in all that work and then publishing, only to have the arc languish there unnoticed, isn't exactly going to offer any incentive for anyone to keep making more of them.
So that means fewer arcs to play. Fewer arcs means fewer players willing to bother with the feature. Fewer players means the pool of authors will continue to shrink, leading to even fewer players. It's a downward spiral. And if only a small percentage of the player base is using the feature, the developers will stop supporting it. They've demonstrated this in the past.
It seems to me MA needs to be used, and used a lot, to be successful. It needs to be brimming with content. Yah, in the estimation of a lot of players, most of that content is going to be pants. But so what? If only 1-2% of arcs are going to be fantastic, I'd rather have the 1-2% of 100,000 arcs than 1-2% of 10,000 of them. The more we have in general, the more good stuff we'll have.
But, right now, based on the emptiness of the AE buildings, the drop of activity on the forums, and the shifts on the market, it's clear MA usage has crashed. And it's not just the PLers who've abandoned it. Players who were using it legitimately, like myself, have also written it off. And, no, it wasn't some other game that caused this exodus, it was I16. The issue carried significant nerfs to the feature, and usage bottomed out right after its release. To be blunt, trying to claim anything else was the cause is disjoining yourself from reality.
Can MA be saved? I think so, but I think it's time sensitive. The longer the feature is marginalized--and it's most assuredly marginalized right now--the harder it'll be to bring the feature back. Frankly, I'm disappointed with how the developers have handled this feature, and if their excessive, ham-fisted approach continues any further, I'm not sure MA is going to survive the abuse.
And, before anyone says it, this is not a DOOM post. There is nothing hysterical or hyperbolic here. In the past 5 years, I've seen plenty of new additions and features fail miserably. I've seen how the developers abandon broken features rather than fix them. I know the signs, and MA is showing all of them right now. If nothing's done within the next issue or two, it's likely that'll be the end of it.
What I think should be done:
- Experience rewards in AE need to be at least in the ballpark of RC. If it's going to be a leveling alternative--and I think it needs to be in order to attract the necessary degree of use--then it has to be viable as such. I don't believe it is right now. Not even close.
- Developer's Choice has to go away or change radically. I was dubious about this feature from the start. After seeing how it's been neglected, I think my trepidation was on the mark. Honestly, unless developers are going to start posting reviews in this forum, I really don't give a toss about what any single one of them might consider good. Based on existing DCs, it's clear my tastes often differ from theirs, so shoving their choices in my face every time I open the AE window is just a nuisance to be immediately bypassed. Either get rid of DCs or have, like, 3 DC slots that change every month.
- There needs to be frequent additions of new content to the system. Honestly, I am truly baffled and amazed that this hasn't been done to any significant extent. There should be new map, new mob, and new package options coming in at a steady pace. Perhaps more importantly, some of this stuff should be exclusive to MA. I believe MA should have at least one tile set that you can't find anywhere else in the game. Even if it's just a recoloring of an existing one.
- Search functionality needs to be expanded further and the ratings system needs to be tossed. There have been some good suggestions about this sort of thing in this thread already. I would be much, much more interested in what Eva, WN, Venture, etc., have put on a "recommended" list than in what rating an arc has garnered from the nameless masses. Largely because the latter is so easily gamed. In practice, it means next to nothing. And even if an arc rating hasn't been manipulated, a high rating just means it's widely acceptable not necessarily good.
I think MA could still be an industry-changing feature, and I really, really want it to be. However, in order for it to have that impact, it needs to be widely adopted. I understand that some people would rather have it be this obscure little feature in the corner utilized by only a handful of extremely devoted players (of which I'd be one, if only sporadically). And that's fine. But I don't see that as the goal, and I don't think the developers do either. -
You guess correctly.
Many of us predicted this would happen. -
Disorganized inspiration tray! Aaaaaaaaah!
*flails like a muppet, runs away* -
Quote:That's so totally awesome. Please don't change a thing.Originally Posted by Donna_
I'm very impatient and I always end up paying high prices for things I want "NAO!" and selling cheap to get the sale "NAO!"
Oh. Dang.Quote:How can I work the market better...
Well, you're outta luck then.Quote:Please note that my impatience is a very difficult variable to change. 
To "work the market better", you need at least two things: patience and awareness.
Being aware means knowing what things usually go for, knowing when prices generally spike and dip, knowing that the sale history really doesn't mean much most of the time, knowing that standing supply vs. standing bids can actually clue you in on what's really going on with a item. Things like that. It also means that, when you hear about upcoming changes to the game, one of the first things you consider is: how will that affect the market? Being aware also means recognizing that the market isn't static.
Being patient means being able to set bids or list items... and then walk away. It means, even if you want the item immediately, you'll at least take the time to do some bid creeping (a little of this practice alone can save you a fortune).
Being patient allows you to make the "big bucks". There are more active ways to work the market, involving quick turnover, but they're not nearly as lucrative.
So, you really need to be patient. But here's something that might help with that:
Every time you feel carried away by the urge to Buy It Nao, remind yourself that people like you are why people like me have multiple characters at the Inf cap.
That might sober you up a bit.
-
Quote:Yes, that'd be childish, if that were the situation. But it's not the situation. You have it backwards.Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
My opinion is perceived as poorly thought by those who disagree. Which seems somewhat childish.
I don't find your opinion ill-thought because I disagree with it.
I disagree with your opinion because I find it to be ill-thought.
There's nothing childish about the latter.
I didn't ignore anything about your statement.Quote:You ignored one part of my statement
Your suggestion is simply another alternative mechanic to the market.
I don't think the market needs any more alternatives. It is an optional system and there are alternatives in place already.
Your problem can be addressed much more directly by simply adjusting drop rates.
If drop rates are not adjusted, it's reasonable to assume that the rarity of the items in question is where the developers want it to be.
I would agree that you've a legitimate issue. I would agree that drop rates on certain items could probably use some tweaking. And certainly the current bug isn't helping. That needs to be identified and fixed.
I do not agree to the proposal of yet another alternative to the market. It's been diluted enough. Especially for a system that's entirely optional. And I'm getting a little weary of my own game experience being diminished due to the overkill employed in addressing someone else's problem.
See: recent MA nerfs. -
Quote:Uh... no.Originally Posted by Heraclea
They are out of reach for players who play as intended.
A market was added to this game. I believe it was intended for people to use it. I use it. By using the market, I am playing the game as intended.
I am really getting sick and bloody tired of the insinuations that playing the market is somehow aberrant or exploitive (in the game sense) behavior. I'm sorry, but it's a valid part of the game.
If you want to play the game the "legacy" way, then expect to use the "legacy" system of rewards. As it happens, it's much, much easier for us to do that now than it was before the market was introduced.
But, if you want to use the optional goodies, you have to, in some fashion, incorporate the optional systems into your game play. I really don't see how this is unreasonable, and I've yet to come across someone who could explain how it is.
Instead, it's all about wanting to eat the cake and have it too and/or "my play style is more legitimate than yours". -
Quote:Yes, I realize that's your opinion. I find your opinion to be ill-thought, based on nothing more than wishful thinking. I don't agree with your opinion.Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
Please, ruin the market? Hardly. IMHO it could improve the market.
Sell to whom? If everyone's buying merits with inf and then buying what they want with merits, who, exactly, will be going to the market for anything?Quote:By cashing in my influence for merits, all I am doing is adding another flow of potential merchandise to the market. Indeed, some would cash in millions if not billions of influence and get lots of merits to buy shiny stuff. They would post it on the market and the billionaires would buy it up only to sell it back for a profit.
If there's a store--and that's effectively what you're proposing--there's little to no use for a market.
No, they are not.Quote:Hydro, you say that tickets and merits caused all kinds of trouble to the market. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the same recipes and enhancements that were expensive before those things came along, still are.
Please keep in mind that, when posting on the market forum, you are likely addressing people who use the market, use it extensively, and use it successfully. I have multiple characters at or near the inf cap, and I don't farm. I am very well versed in the market, believe me. I wouldn't be able to make the sort of profit I make by misreading the market as grossly as you'd like to suggest I have.
I can list numerous examples of recipes that became "vendor trash" when tickets hit the scene, on both sides of the fence. Many of them are still dramatically reduced in price. Right now, I could vendor recipes at a profit that couldn't be touched for under 3-5 million pre-AE.
Merits and tickets have both had dramatic effects on the market and how extensively it's used. This should not be a surprise, as when you add alternatives to the market, people will use them as alternatives to the market.
What you suggest is yet another market alternative. I think there are enough market alternatives. And yes, it stands to reason that, if you add enough alternatives, eventually you reach a point where no one uses the market anymore. Because there's no need to do so.
Again, if something is deemed too rare, the way to address that is by changing its drop rate. The system is optional. There are multiple existing alternatives to the system. The system doesn't need to be altered any further to accommodate proclivities that are in direct opposition to the fundamental dynamic of the system. If you do not have to be informed and patient to get what you want from a market, then it's no longer a market.
It's a store. -
Quote:I'm tired of the request for a store.Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
I already know there is a merit vendor who sells everything. I know the market sells everything. I know I am tired of hearing about buyers setting the prices.
Merits were added, played hell with the market, but that wasn't good enough.
Tickets were added, played hell with the market, but that wasn't good enough.
It appears to me that some people just aren't going to be happy until the purpose of a market is completely defeated. As I enjoy the market aspect of the game, I'm not interested in accommodating those people any further.
There are currently alternative means to get practically everything without using the market.
I'm sorry, but I think that's good enough.
Noop.Quote:When you log in and you get ready to buy something and you see 5 sales all at the same price and they seem somewhat inflated, *ALERT*, seller generated price.
Sure, that might indicate that someone is trying to flip (or flop) or manipulate an item, but it's by no means a given. Many, many people simply look at the sale history and buy at that same amount, or higher, even when they don't have to.
This scenario happens to me regularly:
Last 5 sales on an item: 10 million.
I list 5 of the same item at half of that amount.
I come back later and find that all 5 have sold during the course of the day for... 10 million. Or more.
Sale history? Still uniformly 10 million.
The phenomenon you're talking about does happen, but it's generally easily bypassed by awareness and patience. And the few times where it isn't, well... that's where market PVP comes in.
People just have to grasp the concept that the market isn't static. Just because you see an item selling for X doesn't mean it's going to sell for X a month, a week, a day, or even an hour from now. If an item seems oddly inflated, it probably is. Put in a bid you're comfortable with... and wait.
I understand that this is apparently too much of a bother for some people. But, y'know, that's why the whole thing's optional. That's how those people are accommodated in this system. Nothing needs to be fixed any further, because it's not broken.
It's not the obligation of the developers or the rest of the player base to cater to the (willfully) uninformed and impatient. The very fundamental dynamic of the market system runs counter to those traits. Thus, trying to "adjust" the system to mollify the (willfully) uninformed and impatient undermines its most basic function and purpose... and will ultimately ruin it.
I happen to enjoy the market aspect of the game. I'd rather it not be taken away from me to satisfy people who:
1. don't have to use the market at all.
2. have SOs available through stores.
3. can fully outfit themselves with common IOs without ever using the market.
4. Can purchase most set IOs without ever using the market.
That's enough.
If any given item is deemed too rare, the way to address that is through its drop rate. The market doesn't need to be smacked around any further. -
Quote:What's "too expensive"? Could you give some examples, please?Originally Posted by Donna_
I love to IO and tweak builds on my characters but the cost of the IO's even the basic ones not the Purples are getting way way too expensive.
Everyone can already.Quote:Pls Pls do something so that everyone can enjoy the invention system. -
Quote:You say that as if it hasn't happened already.Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
And the only ones who will really lose out are the people using the MA for its intended purpose.
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Quote:Seems to me this line of thinking leads to removing the market completely.Originally Posted by Lakanna
I don't believe that the market, or the game, is well-served by that "sticker shock" of people hitting the market for the first time. Anyone who looks, and says "I'll never be able to afford that," and ignores the market thereafter, is a person who COULD have been a participant, but was discouraged.
No matter how it's couched, I'm not going to be sympathetic to the suggestion of watering down the system (even more) to make it more accessible, and that's where you seem to be going. I think it's plenty accessible as it is.
Some people are discouraged? Okay. Some people are always going to be discouraged. So where do we draw the line? Are we to sink to the lowest common denominator? If not, how do we determine where the line's to be drawn? Because, no matter where we draw it, someone's going to be left out in the cold. The only way to completely avoid that is to make everything available through vendors. And at that point the market is dead.
But the thing is, the system is already entirely optional. I know some people don't like having that pointed out, but it's true. No one has to use the market. No one needs those IOs. At this point you can even completely outfit yourself with common IOs without using the market at all.
I believe that to be more than enough of a concession for those who are easily discouraged and have wrongly concluded--even in the face of loads of evidence to the contrary--that the market is "pointless".
Anything more than that, and you start seriously infringing upon those of us who weren't discouraged and took the time to figure the system out.
Basically, my impression is that you want to cater to those who threw their hands up in the air and walked away... at the expense of those of us who didn't. I don't find that even remotely fair or reasonable.
We were all, at one point or another, new to the market. But some of us realized, when you have a market, there's going to be high-end, expensive items on it. That just comes with the territory.
You can't dispense with that and still have a market.
People can use merits and tickets to buy almost any recipe. They can use tickets to buy any piece of invention salvage. They have open access to stores which sell enhancements that're more than sufficient for playing the game.
Honestly, I think that's enough. If someone wants more than this, I don't think it's unreasonable to say: well, if you want that quickly, you need to familiarize yourself with this system to get it. -
Quote:I didn't say the entire AE has been gutted. I said its function as a leveling alternative has been gutted. Currently, I don't find it to be a viable leveling alternative. Based on the emptiness of the AE buildings (only 4 people in the Atlas building right now) I believe this is the majority view.Originally Posted by Tir_McDohl
I understand the jist of what you're saying, but it's hardly appropriate to say the entire AE has been "gutted."
Viable for play? Sure. Viable for leveling? Eh. Not so much.Quote:Quite a bit of the actual complete content that was made for AE is perfectly playable with zero changes. Others need a bit of tweaking. Either way, it isn't as if AE were hit with a blanket nerf of all exp and rewards. It's still perfectly viable so long as the content you play was built properly.
Again, the weekend after MA went live, it was determined that 70% of the arcs created featured custom critters.
Custom critters took a tremendous XP hit in I16, on top of the custom group nerf. Given the amount of arcs that use custom critters, this was probably as close as you could get to a "blanket nerf" without it actually being one.
And, as I said, XP gain in AE when played as intended was already subpar pre-I16.
Changes?Quote:People knew this change was coming and they had plenty of time to make changes to any content of theirs that would be affected.
Here were my options for changes on my published arc, if I wanted its XP potential to be more than negligible:
Option 1: Remove my custom critters and use standard mobs.
This ruins the arc.
Option 2: Remove custom critters I want from one group and add some I don't want to another group. Then jack up the difficulty on all the power sets to Hard and Extreme. Then, in order to avoid problematic powers, change sets I want to sets I don't want.
Not only does this undermine concepts, it'd make the arc unplayable for many, many players. But this is what I'd have to do for XP rewards to be even close to those gained in RC.
I think that's pretty ridiculous.
So I chose to leave it as is. As it's marked with 'Custom Group' and 'Enemies with custom power selections' I doubt it'll get many plays in the post-I16 game, if any at all.
True, but this doesn't have anything to do with its viability as a leveling alternative.Quote:AE tickets are still easy to obtain, they still provide a great reward
There is a very active forum here filled with people who were playing legitimate content before I16.Quote:Before I16, I never saw anyone playing legitimate AE content.
I hope you're right, but I don't see that happening with the system as it stands.Quote:Teams who play legitimate I16 content are now in the forefront, even if it's a very small community as it is. The only reason for that is because AE garnered such a negative connotation to it that people abandoned it in droves when the profiteers rushed in. It'll restore itself.
I agree with that. But the SSK system and the difficulty sliders likely would've been enough. Add to that the custom group XP nerf, and it certainly would've been enough. The custom critter nerf was overkill and, as I mentioned previously, didn't even affect the intended targets. By and large, farmers and PLers didn't use custom critters.Quote:However, I think that a very drastic and dramatic change WAS warranted.
Again, I don't see architects shelving stories and walking away from the feature as a positive change. Given the purpose of the feature, I take it as an extremely negative indicator.Quote:I personally can report positive changes already. -
Quote:The custom group nerf isn't too bad. The custom critter nerf is, I think, pretty severe. And, based on the reactions of several architects, is not having the intended effect.Originally Posted by Tir_McDohl
Ok, I must have missed the part in the patch notes where ALL custom groups were nerfed. As far as I understand it, a custom group simply must be, well, COMPLETE in order to gain full benefits from it. Is that really so much to ask? Is it that hard to scratch out a couple more enemy types for a group?
What I'm talking about has absolutely nothing at all to do with power-leveling. Lemme repeat what I stated in the previous post, as you may have missed it:Quote:but god forbid you deny someone the ability to powerlevel in a two block radius (or however far it was between AE and Ms Liberty) for the entire game.
"Before I16, if you were using AE as it was meant to be used--running through arcs, not PLing in boss farms--XP gain was already subpar: no mission bonus, no arc bonus, no patrol XP. Now, particularly with the changes to custom critters, it's much worse."
I'm not advocating power-leveling. I'm saying MA rewards should be sufficient enough that most players will incorporate it into the course of their normal gameplay. I don't think that's happening right now. When leveling, I and others now avoid AE completely.
This is what I would like MA to do:
1. Provide a means for me to create personalized story content for SGs and characters.
2. Provide new content for me to explore with my 50s.
3. Provide viable content alternatives for leveling my characters.
It does 1 and 2 fairly well, but it currently fails at 3. As 3 is part of its intended and stated purpose, I think it needs to deliver on that in order to be considered truly successful. I don't believe it's doing so right now.
I've been here for 5 years. I've done the "real content" many times over. I would like new content through which I can progress my characters. I would like that progression to be roughly on par with what it'd be if I were running through "real content". It doesn't have to be as good... but it should be in the ballpark.
It was barely in the ballpark before I16. Now it's not in it at all. Consequently, MA is presently relegated to the status of diversion for me, much like PVP is. While I can certainly live with that, I'd rather the feature played a more central role in my own gameplay, as well as in the gameplay of the playerbase at large.
My hope is that XP rates for custom critters will see upward adjustments in the future. I'm actually pretty confident that's going to happen. I'm just hoping it happens before too many people have written the whole thing off. -
Quote:This is true, but the context in which that creativity is to be proliferated is a game. MA is meant to be a tool for player-created game content and a leveling alternative.Originally Posted by TheNakedNinja
But I get a real kick out of experiencing the creative sides of my fellow peers. I've always thought from the beginning, that was the point of AE. To proliferate creativity.
On that second part, I think I16 has really gutted it.
Yah, it's nice to have the ability to make SG-specific stories. And yah, it's nice to have new stuff to run through with a 50. But the folks using it in this fashion (myself included) no doubt represent a pretty small segment of the larger community.
The feature's broader appeal (and its big boon for the developers) comes with its potential for never-ending new content. Content that can be played from 1 to 50. That's the draw.
But if, in AE, experience is gained at a significantly slower rate than it is when playing through regular content (RC), most people are going to avoid AE most of the time. That defeats a large part of the feature's purpose.
Before I16, if you were using AE as it was meant to be used--running through arcs, not PLing in boss farms--XP gain was already subpar: no mission bonus, no arc bonus, no patrol XP. Now, particularly with the changes to custom critters, it's much worse. So much so that several (good) architects have said: why make stories that practically no one's going to play?
For those of us who want story content in AE, I don't see that as a positive development.
If I recall Positron's rundown correctly, on the first weekend after MA went live, about 70% of the arcs used custom critters. Clearly then, the ability to create custom critters was a big attraction and a source of inspiration for architects.
But now, if you want to create an arc for a general audience, it's in your best interest to not use custom critters at all. 'Cuz, even if you used them sparingly, there will be warnings on your arc description, and that warning will likely turn most players away.
Dispersing farmers, drawing them out of AE buildings, was no doubt a good thing. But the SSK system and the difficulty changes were probably all that were needed to accomplish that. The MA nerfs were, I think, overkill. The changes to custom critters in particular were self-defeating (and, as near as I can gather, hardly even affected the intended target groups). Some people are applauding these changes, but I think they're not seeing the long-term damage they could inflict.
I love MA. I want it to be a smashing success. Not just for the impact that success would have on this property, but also the effect such success would have on the MMO industry in general. If it's successful, we'll see more things like it. I want that.
But I don't see the feature's current trajectory as being one that leads to that success (as measured by popularity). If MA bombs, support for it will vanish. If MA bombs, other dev teams will be reticent to try anything like it. From my vantage, MA is currently bombing.
Is it dead? Not yet. But I think it's moribund and rapidly approaching the point of no return. I'll continue to use it for SG arcs and as the occasional play diversion. I'm sure others will as well. But, in the end, that usage doesn't mean anything. To be considered "alive", I think MA has to be a vibrant, widely-adopted, fully integrated aspect of the game.
I don't see it as being anything of the sort right now. I certainly don't consider it for leveling anymore. I stick to RC exclusively for that. And this is coming from someone who was willing to take a pretty big hit on XP gain just to experience something new. I feel it's safe to say that most players aren't willing to take that hit.
For MA to be "alive"--a success--it needs to be embraced by more than just story purists and roleplayers.
Finally, to the devs, I'd offer this:
Confucius say, "do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from a friend's forehead." -
I regret to inform folks that it's not just farmers who've dropped MA (if they've dropped MA). The changes (nerfs) to custom critters turned off a lot of the architects as well. Y'know, the players the feature was targeted at.
-
I find this:
Quote:...being in the same post as this:Originally Posted by BloodFairy
I don't have time to farm and give up my hobbies like sleeping and eating to play all the time, and never will.
...to be kinda funny.Quote:I have like 14 50s -
My eyes just 'sploded.
x.x
Wait-- This is all just a clever promotional stunt for the upcoming City of Litigators expansion, isn't it?