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Posts
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Joined
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Gosh, but I hate that poor excuse for a... poor excuse.
Jets taking off: sufficiently sneaky.
Lightning storms: sufficiently sneaky.
Helicopter break-dancing with a 6-foot staff: sufficiently sneaky.
Punching people harder than usual: not sneaky enough. -
The rule of 5 actually ONLY applies to set bonuses. You can slot as many as you want of any IO (except Unique ones, of course), but you can only gain any given set bonus (like the 10% regen bonus) 5 times, even if it's from different sets.
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Yep. Agreed.
Anyway, the discussion of exactly how broken SS would be in a hypothetical straight scrapper port is kinda academic, and it's cutting into my Saturday night playing time, so I'm gonna try to leave this thread alone now. -
Since when do AVs mean better drops, though? AVs are generally terrible in terms of rewards for the time and effort it takes to defeat them.
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Did somebody claim that? I haven't, that I recall. I claimed FS was twice as good as WS for a scrapper (using an admittedly very simplified comparison), versus half-again as good on brutes. That specific ratio will not necessarily hold in a more detailed comparison (as you've done, still with some simplifications), but I'd be very surprised if the advantage totally disappears or is reversed.
Quote:But benchmarks won't tell the whole story. It's like comparing Midnight Grasp to Headsplitter on raw numbers alone (and ignoring that one is lethal with a 19 degree cone and the other negative energy and single target), or looking at how a scrapper performs with Soul Drain saturated 50% of the time compared to other scrapper sets vs. how a brute performs with Soul Drain saturated 50% of the time compared to other brute sets. There will always be a larger disparity in scrapper sets in terms of differing damage buffs due to the higher base damage.
Quote:All things being equal, Titan Weapons has more AOE attacks and thus higher AOE potential than super strength. The cone attacks also have a 10 foot range and two of them hit fairly hard. So while the SS scrapper will hit harder with foot stomp, the TW character has titan sweep, arc of destruction, as well as defensive sweep whereas SS has single-target attacks. Comparing similar powers one for one will favor SS and SS may outperform other single target sets, but even with raged up foot stomp, will it outperform the AoE sets in the manner you're suggesting?
But to answer the question directly, will SS outperform other AoE sets by itself? Usually no. But it will underperform them by less on a scrapper than it does on a brute. -
Quote:That's true. I wasn't trying to say "Foot Stomp is 23% more broken than Whirling Smash, which I arbitrarily designate as the perfect balance point", though, just using it as a benchmark. You could replace that with any other power you want to use as a benchmark, and the result should be similar; looks like that's what Bill's doing right now in his edit.The other thing about whirling smash is that it has a shorter animation, shorter recharge, and a lower endurance cost. It's also supplemented by three cones, whereas SS has no other AoE at all.
Quote:I didn't tell you the math was a perceptual issue. It was your statement that the math demonstrates that SS would be more OP compared to scrapper titan weapons because of comparing one attack in each set, and doing so in the absence of performance comparisons between the two sets across the board. -
*sigh* Using single Rage instead makes the disparity smaller, just as it does on Brutes, but it does not disappear. Here:
Brute Foot Stomp, single Rage: 59*(1+.95+.8+1.6) = 257
Brute Whirling Smash: 208 again, of course
So with one stack of Rage, Brute Foot Stomp is about 24% more damaging than Brute Whirling Smash.
Scrapper Foot Stomp, single Rage: 89*(1+.95+1) = 263
Scrapper Whirling Smash: 170 again, of course
So with one stack of Rage, Scrapper Foot Stomp is 55% more damaging than Scrapper Whirling Smash.
So even with the much-more-conservative single-Rage scenario, Foot Stomp on a scrapper is much better relative to other scrapper powers than it is on brutes relative to other brute powers. This is what I meant when I said it would overperform to an even larger degree.
Edit for post #40: That's fine. I'm not likely to change my mind, either, especially if you tell me the math is just a perceptual issue ;P Discussions such as this are rarely about changing the participants' minds, at least not in the short term, but at least they help understand where the other side is coming from. -
Fair enough. I think some of the new sets play quite differently from other stuff, even the ones not using new mechanics. Time, for instance, feels very different from other supports sets to me (and is the only support set I've ever liked enough to get to 50). If you want more, though, more power to you.
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Quote:That's what I'm disputing: SS on scrappers, barring changes, would be even more overpowered relative to other scrapper sets than it is on brutes relative other brute sets. Foot Stomp with 95% enhancement, 80 fury, and double Rage does 305 damage. Whirling Smash, with the same enhancement and Fury, does 208. So for a brute, Foot Stomp is about half again as strong as Whirling Smash, which seems appropriate given their recharge times. On a scrapper, with 95% enhancement and double Rage (+200% with scrapper mods), it would do 89*(1+.95+2) = 351 damage. Whirling Smash, with the same enhancements and before counting crits, does about 170. So for a scrapper, Foot Stomp would be about TWICE as strong as Whirling Smash. Running the comparison again with single Rage instead of double Rage would make the disparity smaller, but not eliminate it.The overperformance would be the same relative to the AT's intended functionality.
It's not just that the set would be more damaging than it is on brutes - that's almost a given for most brute/scrapper comparisons. It would be proportionally stronger than other scrapper sets by a greater degree than the same sets on brutes. -
Are we talking about new concepts thematically, or new concepts mechanically?
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Quote:I guess we're just disagreeing on what "broken" means, then. What if I phrase my meaning in a more specific and technical way: Super Strength on scrappers would overperform, in terms of damage, to an even larger degree than it does on brutes. The current brute level of overperformance is (apparently?) small enough that the devs don't consider fixing it to be a high enough priority, or worth the potential player backlash, but they'd be reevaluating the set anyway if they proliferated it, and the higher level of overperformance on scrappers might force their hand.Just having bigger numbers doesn't make it more broken, though.
That still doesn't mean they shouldn't port it, though. It just means I doubt a straight port is a good idea, and so I doubt that's what will happen. -
Quote:Sets like DB, KM, and /Shield are better on scrappers than brutes, at least partly because of their persistent damage buffs, yes? They're not broken on either AT, but general consensus seems to agree that such sets are better on scrappers than on brutes, by a larger amount than just the usual difference between scrappers and brutes.It wouldn't be even more broken on scrappers. It might be more obvious, but the relative brokenness is virtually identical.
This particular argument is one I've never trusted, never believed, and will likely never trust or believe.
SS would be better on scrappers than brutes, for much the same reason, except by an even larger amount, since Rage can provide an even larger buff. And if it's already broken on Brutes, and would be that much stronger on Scrappers, it would be more broken on Scrappers.
That's my line of reasoning. I'm not trying to be confrontational, just laying it all out explicitly so you can identify which part you disagree with, and then we can discuss it. -
I agree with that, as well, as I also said a few posts up. I would like the set to be not broken (in either direction) after the port, is all, so "just port it as is" or "just replace Rage with Build Up" are both terrible options, to me.
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I agree. I said the same thing a few posts up. It would be even more broken on Scrappers, though, which would almost certainly demand dev attention when it got ported, and the outcome may not be something we end up liking.
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Well, there's something about multiplying by ZoneEvent in the buff effect there. I would guess that has to do with collecting the meteors?
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It's true, though: +80% damage for an AT that runs around with 300% or more to start with is much less significant than +100% on an AT that runs around with 195% otherwise. And SS on tanks outperforms most tank sets for damage AFAIK, but nobody really cares because they're still below good scrappers/brutes.
Ideally, to me, a SS port would make the set rely less on Rage, maybe turn it into a situational power instead of an all-the-time buff, and buff the rest of the set to compensate, so that the set stays about as good as it is now by itself, and doesn't boost non-SS attacks so much. If I'm really dreaming, maybe we can make the Rage crash less annoying, too. I can't really argue against anyone who looks at what I just wrote and says "no, keep your grubby paws off my SS, I like it the way it is", though. -
Quote:Yes, that's correct. It's too strong on brutes and tanks. Why do you think it's been the king of brute sets for all these years?Also, I have never read a convincing argument on this forum as to why Super Strength is "too powerful" to be a scrapper set, while it's balanced for brutes and tankers. If it does too much damage for a scrapper to use, then it pushes brute or tanker damage too high in the first place.
I mean, it doesn't dramatically overperform by itself. SS by itself is good, but not super broken. Rage boosting Burn and Gloom and et cetera is where it gets broken. Tanker base damage is lower, and Rage is less significant to a Brute since they also have Fury, so it's less of an issue for them. Porting it to Scrappers would make the problem more pronounced, and force them to pay attention to it. At best, it might end up with the set's power being spread out more evenly among its powers, rather than Foot Stomp, Rage, and to a degree KO Blow being incredibly good and the rest of the set mediocre. At worst, it would be Energy Melee II: Electric Boogaloo.
I would like to see scrappers get SS, but I would like more to not have the set gutted in the process. -
I got a different amount each time I checked. Once was like 17%, the next 60-something.
Claiming which meteors? I mean, obviously there are meteors all over the place in the trial, but I didn't notice any objective for claiming them, or any way to do so. -
The Peacebringer, Regen, and Willpower self-rezzes gained 15-second damage immunity, turning them from glorified Awakens into usable combat rezzes. It's buried in the patch notes somewhere.
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I'm sort of holding out hope that maybe there will be a freespec once they get out the rest of the i22 changes (some of the Grav and Dark changes that rednames were planning didn't make it into this build). Zwillinger didn't technically deny this:
Quote:I'm probably wrong, but it would be nice.Currently, there are no plans to issue a free respec coinciding with the launch of Issue 22.
My apologies to anyone who may be disappointed by this.
The changes to certain self-rez powers also require a respec to take advantage of, which has somehow avoided mention in this thread so far; in fact, trying to respec my /WP scrapper to grab the no-longer-trash Resurgence is how I discovered we hadn't gotten a freespec. -
So I've noticed this buff in the Drowning in Blood trial. It's called Meteoric, and provides a damage buff that seems to vary in strength (I didn't have much chance to experiment with it, since the trial moves quickly). Anybody know what the deal is? What grants it or determines how much bonus it gives?
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"We'll be safe here. Mako's a shark, and sharks can't swim, right?"
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Quote:They could. The question you may be looking for is "why didn't they?" And to answer that, we have to look at "why DID they?" And the answer is that, presumably, they wanted to try it out, and because the PPM does not favor really fast powers the way a flat proc chance does. It kinda favors slow powers instead, considering how attack chains actually work, but not by nearly so wide a margin.I don't get it why did they change market IOs and even the new atos procs to proc per minute? why couldn't they just leave them like 20% to fire or whatever?
I like the PPM procs overall, but I think it's quite odd and inconsistent that the attuned versions of the procs use PPM, while the crafted versions have a flat proc chance. This means the crafted version is better in some cases, and the attuned version better in others, which seems to go against the general idea of selling sets that are otherwise identical to the crafted versions. What I wonder is "why did they make these with PPM and leave the old ones the same?" To avoid irritating players? To make the attuned versions more desirable? Some other reason? I dunno. -
By the way, since the entire reason we're seeking incarnate powers (well - the heroes anyway, villains have their own reasons) is to fight absurdly powerful foes that we would have no hope of defeating any other way, it's a bit odd for the incarnate-focused zone to not have even the option for such absurdly powerful foes. Forget teams for a second - I want AVs so I can solo them, demonstrating how powerful I am.
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Endmods in Resurgence increase the endurance you revive with, and the recovery buff after reviving. However, that recovery buff is already so absurdly huge that I doubt it would ever need to be slotted for. The proc would have one chance to fire when you activate the power, which again is wildly unnecessary due to the huge recovery buff.
I'd say just put a generic recharge enhancement in the power and call it a day.