Hanged_Man

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I'm going to add a third whahuuuuh?

Castle, I'm incredibly confused by how these debuffs are calculated now. I can see that the numbers add up to 37.5%, but what do those numbers mean? What is base Scale? Defender modifier?

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Base scale and defender modifier are just used internally at cryptic and doesn't mean anything to us.

37.5 means that an even con minion will have 12.5% chance to hit with darkest night on, and you'll need defence or more debuffs to reach 5%. I suspect a few out of shadowfall, fearsome stare, some dark blasts will do it.

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If they mean something to Cryptic, they mean something to us.

Knowing how the game views debuffs helps us figure out how they actually work. AFAIK, nobody's gone to the point of testing, say, Rad Infection against 100 mobs at +0, +1, +2, +3, +4, bosses, AV's, controller v. defender v. corrupter, and seeing what actually happens. If there's a way to figure that out, I'd like to know. And knowing that Cryptic doesn't just have a -37.5% number for Defender DN, and instead has a managerie of modifers that get to that number, helps to figure that out.

(AFAIK, btw, you can floor even-level minions w/ just Darkest Night. I've tested it for RI and Hurricane, and w/ 3 debuff enhancements, it does floor them.)

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FYI: Darkest Night

Its base Scale is 1.5. It has been since at least I3 (that's as far back as I checked.) Defenders multiple is .125 and enhancements are 1.98 (my calcs before were thinking ToHit Debuffs were Schedule B.)

1.5 * 0.125 * 1.98 = .37125 or a tad over 37%.

Any guide that says it is Base 30 Probably meant 30% mitigation, since that lines up with the 1.5 base.

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*Blink* *blink*

Well, as mentioned previously, it was on the boards here that a developer told us that it was a 30% (divisible) debuff (which would match the the -15% to the base_to_hit that you were talking about earlier.)

The new numbers you are talking about don't make sense from what we were previously told.

(IIRC, Darkest Night was 30% base debuff accuracy, smoke and smoke grenade were both 15%. They used Cat A SOs, so were 33% each (now up to 95% increase for 3SOs.))

I don't understand your numbers above at all other than Defenders are at 125% of the "base" debuff.

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Bolded for what the heck? I dont think you cleared much up here Castle.

Guides have talked about DN being a 35% base To Hit Debuff unehanced.

For example, this guide

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I'm going to add a third whahuuuuh?

Castle, I'm incredibly confused by how these debuffs are calculated now. I can see that the numbers add up to 37.5%, but what do those numbers mean? What is base Scale? Defender modifier?

Arcanaville, I'm not following part of this accuracy debuff v. defense scaling arguments here. Can you explain? It's this part:

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And that's why I say I can't think of *situations* where tohit debuffs appear to have intended on being exempt. In general, tohit debuffs are debuffs like all other debuffs, and the *default* assumption is that they *all* should be affected, since that is what the scaler is directly intended to do. But its *possible* that specific circumstances lend themselves to reconsidering that base assumption, for that specific circumstance only. I just can't think of any right now. Put into the context of the defense scaler: the tohit buff benefit that higher ranked villains and higher level villains was explicitly put in there to make those villains hit us more often: that's obvious. However, its *not* obvious that they were intended to penalize defense sets more than resistance sets: that is *not* obvious, and based on balance statements from the devs, the most logical conclusion possible is that the nature of tohit buffs (in terms of penalizing defense sets more than other sets) was *unintended*. So the logical conclusion then becomes the devs should find a way to boost the accuracy of the villains in a way that's fair to defense sets: long ago I suggested a way: swap tohit for accuracy. It seems the devs are thinking the same thing: that the villains were supposed to become more accurate, but not in an unbalanced way from defense to resistance.

If a similar argument can be constructed for tohit debuffs, something *a lot* stronger than "tohit debuffs are kinda like defense, so why should they be treated any different" then I think a case can be made to consider a similar adjustment for them.

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There are two basic aspects of the purple patch, buffing mobs and weakening hero powers. Debuffs are affected by both aspects. With respect to weakened debuffs, obviously you can't have accuracy debuffs be unaffected by the purple patch, but have damage debuffs and so on be affected. That'd screw Kinetics and a bunch of other debuff sets if -damage was scaled, but -accuracy always worked at 100%.

The main reason most people had problems w/ defense scaling was that the other aspect the purple patch (the mob buffing part) meant defense failed just when it really counted, against +level foes. However, that's exactly the problem debuffs face, they fail just when they're really needed. Basically, I'm not seeing why debuffs should scale, but buffs should not.

The way the game works right now, it doesn't matter much b/c debuffs are far more powerful than buffs. A single power from Dark still gives as much effective "defense" as SR against high-level foes b/c the base values of Darkest Night are so high, and the enhancements scale differently.

But doesn't that seem overly clunky? Why should debuffs allow someone to utterly destroy a +0 AV, but become relatively ineffective against a +3 AV? That seems like a poor choice of powerbalancing, for exactly the same reason that defense requires this change.

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Don't forget that accuracy debuffs were heavily affected under ED. My Darkest Night (which was about a 90% -ACC before) is now only 65% -ACC, a fairly hefty change.

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Debuffs are applied to To Hit, not Accuracy. So, a 30% To Hit Debuff on an AV would result in the AV having (50% - 30%) * 1.5 [Their Accuracy Modifier] or 30% chance to hit someone with no Defense. If you have 5% Defense on top of the Debuff, that would be cut down to 22.5% chance to hit. If you have 20% Defense on top of the Debuff, then the AV's chance to hit would be 7.5%. A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.

Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.

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Is this going to completely overpower things? Before you jump on me for saying that let me explain...

If suddenly debuffs + Defence make the game 'too easy' again, this will just end up resulting in more nerfs towards those classes who utilize these powers?

I mean really, a %7.5 chance to hit for an AV?????? Thats a joke.

Am I completely missing something here?

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I've been thinking about this a little more, and I can't see the overpoweredness of it. AV's, even w/ ED and junk, can be brought to 5% accuracy right now w/o totally twinked builds. Two Rad defenders, for instance, can (IIRC) floor a +2 AV right now. Might be wrong on the math for that, but it's pretty close.

Now that +2 AV's going to be hitting about twice as often. That's worth something.

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Some people say this makes DEF better than -ACC, and in a solo situation that is true. But where your 10% DEF helps only you, the -ACC debuffs helps your whole team.

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Many people think exactly the opposite, that debuffs are actually most helpful solo, less helpful on teams. Here's why.

Solo, you can almost always make the debuff work against all your opponents. It functions exactly the same as defense - all your opponents hit less often. You also fight (generally) smaller groups, so debuffing 5 opponents often is debuffing all opponents.

Teams, you generally cannot debuff all your opponents. On a good day, I can get half the mobs fighting a 5 person team, and I like to think I'm pretty good. (That's assuming your toggles don't drop and junk like that.) On teams, your debuffs are at best half as effective as they are solo.

So, there's two ways of looking at it. First, as you say, debuffs help the whole team, defense just helps you - debuffs are better on teams. Second, defense works against all opponents, debuffs only against those (less than 100%) that are debuffed.

There's a lot of things flowing from this. First, debuffers can solo AV's. (Still. I got so much flack for posting about it after I5, I'm done. If the devs don't care, I don't care.) Defense sets, at least before this change, generally can't w/o dieing a few times. Debuffers rule against AV's.

Second, debuffers suck in PvP. Debuffs work like extremely crappy defense. In practice, they work as if you had extremely good defense, but that defense only triggered 50% of the time.

FWIW.

Mieux, how many monkeys* actually type out your posts? How long does it take them to finish? I'm guessing 7 monkeys, 30 seconds.

*I know it's monkeys because a human would have followed the logic layed out by Hunter and Arcanaville, who probably should stop responding to your posts.

It's not just damage debuffs, it's every debuff that affects a buffable/slottable power. But . . . the devs don't seem to address these issues on an "overall" basis, but on a "power by power" basis. For instance, Slow debuffs used to be ridiculously weak, having no effect on most PvP battles. The devs changed the debuff in PvP so that it now at least effects Superspeed. Kind of.

So, instead of addressing the overall problem, which is that buffed/enhanced powers make most debuffs irrelevant, the devs addressed a particularly egregious example. Storm Defenders, for instance, pointed out that Snow Storm debuffed their speed more than the target's speed b/c of suppression. We whined enough about a particularly bad effect that it got changed. I think that's what it takes.

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The decrease is fairly minor. For defenders, it's really a 5% reduction in damage output.

The principle of the thing is that a dev said that EF was not reduced, and those saying it was were mistaken or lying. Seeing this patch note now after the comment that was posted when this was first brought up is a bit disturbing.

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No, 37.5% down to 30% isn't minor. Not only is it lots more than a 5% change, it's a huge time change. At 37.5% I could just kill groups of orange cons in 1 cycle of Irradiate+NBomb. Now it will take an extra cast of Irradiate, which will significantly increase amount of time it takes to kill.

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Then I guess the devs just showed us what they consider acceptable solo targets.

I'm not sure why you challenge the percentage change? Say you do 100 points of damage. Old EF let you do 137.5. New EF lets you do 130. 137.5/130~1.05.

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..wha...?

you lost me.

you said 'imagine if CM' and then I was agreeing saying 'imagine if AP!' and now you're saying you didn't take the power and defenders need to heal self?

I'm confused.

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If CM worked on me is what I first said, then you said I think, what if Absorb Pain was a self heal? Which is of no use to me, since I don't have it, and if it was a self heal it would take your health, then heal yourself, then you wouldnt be able to heal again for 40 seconds? I think we confused eachother.

Cheers!

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I was just thinking self-Absorb Pain would be a great way to get all the healing badges in a couple hours!

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Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):

Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.

Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.

Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)

Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed

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Why are Illusion stealth's locked in w/ the other "non-defense" buffs? It's Illusion's primary power, and no less "defensive" than Storm or Dark's stealth powers.

The defense bonuses in I5 are already so low that suppressing them is pointless. You might as well just remove the defense from suppressible powers, as a practical matter the defense offers nothing.

Suppression also has several consequences.

<ul type="square">[*]Endurance is badly overpriced given the usefulness of the power.[*]There is no reason to slot Defense in Stealth powers. One of your design goals was for slotting to be useful on any power. It isn't for Stealth, GI, SI, Invis, or Cloaking Device.[*]Other powers are now useless. Flash, for instance, is impossible for Illusion to use safely as an alpha power.[*]Nonsensical results. Stealth provides defense . . . unless you're in combat, when it really doesn't? It just doesn't "sound" right.[/list]
I could elaborate these points, but you guys are busy.

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Wanted to explain the reasons for changing Burn...

It became apparent that Burn was the trump power...with it, a Tanker needed to do nothing else. He could lay down a Burn patch and Taunt foes in and out of it. The damage was so great that the Burn patch itself would do the defeating; the Tanker only needed to hit Taunt.

The question has come up - "what's the point of Burn now?" Well, it still offers Immobilization defense (we're actually going to increase that duration). And Burn does do a lot of damage. Taunt alone might not bring mobs into Burn continually, but stunning, holding, immobilizing mobs in Burn is just plain devastating.

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I don't understand this change at all. If tanks aren't supposed to be able to do damage with Burn, why do they still have it in their Primary? That's the sum of your explanation, Tanks shouldn't be able to cause damage with Burn.

I know, I know, they can team up with somebody else and get good damage out of Burn. They also get good damage just out of teaming up with somebody else w/o all the stuff. Burn isn't adding much here.

And in any event, I'm left wondering why, if it's OK for a Fire Tank to do that much damage on a team, it isn't OK to do that much damage solo? It sounds like the answer is, Fire Tanks shouldn't do that much damage.

IMO, just replace it with something useful and more tankery, or leave it alone.

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Not every team has a tanker and a controller...

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Then not every team is going to be able to face every threat they encounter. IMO, the goal of CoH teaming is that you can handle most things with most any set of AT's. This doesn't meant that any group of AT's can handle every situation. But that's just me, I know reasonable peeps disagree with me.

But IMO any team can handle ETC's. It's just going to be very hard and very complicated for some teams. Carefully dividing up ETC targets so they get nailed before they debuff, kiting, teleporting, there's lots of ways for Tank- and Controller-less teams to deal with them. They're just difficult, time-consuming, and risky. That's the stuff that annoys us, so it's the stuff that we complain about.

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Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.

This change will come in Expansion 5.

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Wow ... that's too bad!

I actually thought they were well built badguys. Really damn tuff but not overtly soo to any specific AT.

Every AT I tried against them had a challenge!

They were well built.

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I agree. I'm going to miss the challenging mobs. Especially since it also was one of the few situations I really loved my Teleport.

IMO, I think part of the problem (besides the multiple-ETC spawn) is that the Quicksand is almost always at +level. Those +level debuffs are more powerful than even-level or -level debuffs. If that is true, I'd rather the dev's limited the number of ETC mobs/spawn, and lowered the effective level of the debuff, before making any other changes.

That depends on where the mobs are in the recharge cycle when you cast Fearsome Stare. If they have a power cycled and ready to use, they use it. Sometimes, you get lucky when you use FS to get outta dodge. Sometimes you don't. IMO, Black Hole is much safer.

YMMV.

I disagree, MMZ. FS can get the Dark defender killed if the [censored] really hits the fan. The mobs get to snap a shot off before the debuff, and that can be it for the defender. Which usually means a TPK. But Black Hole can, if used right, give you time to regroup without actually dieing.

Heh. We know how much of an advantage. It's in State's Post.

I'm just disappointed that farming Hami is now what I get to look forward to for all of my high-end toons.

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This means that, to avoid alphas, you simply cast it AROUND A CORNER.

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I was asking about avoiding the alpha strike, using it as an Oh [censored] power, not in general. There's tons of ways to avoid it or minimize it as a starting power, where I think it has at least some uses. I can't see using it as an Oh [censored] power, tho.

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I just respecced out of ST not because it was useless but because I just didnt have room in my build for a power that would see such little use.

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I've never said it's "useless." It's just that the things you can use it for are so marginal I can never see any reason to cast it.

I'm curious how people avoid the counterstrike when using ST as an "Oh [censored]" Power. IMX, if the aggro you generate from it wasn't enough to kill you, it wasn't an "oh [censored]" situation, it was just a "difficult" situation.

So how do you do it?

Fun battles, huh?

It wasn't an issue of "can I take them," but of "how long is it going to take" with +4 and +5 bosses, or more that 2 +3's. One of the bastards would always leave the debuff circle . . .

It depends on the secondary. As Ill/Rad in the 30's and 40's, a challenging solo fight (90% wins, 10% running away when pets do somthing weird, no deaths) was:

Pair of +3 bosses.
8 +4 minions.
At least 3 +2 bosses, 4 +3 lts, and 10 +2 minions grouped together.

At +2, the groups I fought were ~5 +2 bosses, ~6 +2 lts, and ~10 +2 minions (CoT or Rikti mostly). That was my bread and butter solo, anything less than that was just filler.

Ill/Emp or Ill/FF wouldn't be a few steps behind IMX.

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No this is not true...only certain powers have crits.... Like blind is a Mag 3 hold it also has a mag 1 hold that hits 20% of the time so you can say it is mag 3 hold that is mag 4 20% of the time. There are others like this. But it is by no means in all sets and all AT's.

The above statement was not meant to say that only mez powers have crits I was just using a particular mez power as an example.

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Again, thats a controller power. I would hope anyoen posting here is aware that controllers can get crit holds to hold a boss in 1 shot. I however, was questioning whether or not a boss normalyl takes a crit fear to be feared. I dont think they do. As for defenders getting crit holds, I believe geko said only controllers (and not defenders, blasters, or anyone else) can get crit holds to hold a boss in 1 shot.

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I've never had a crit Fear, but I don't have that much experience. Maybe ask mind controllers on teh Controller board?

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I don't know why people care about the stackable debuffs. By the time ST put a mob at the accuracy minimum, the mobs were long since dead unless your build was terrible. It was kewl and all, but it didn't add to Subby's power at all.

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Well the fights your describing, using ST might be overkill. It likes comparing the minimum fighting even con minions vs fighting an AV. And saying well since I didn't need vs the even con minions the power mustn't be good. Stacking buffs/debuffs, make a heroe all the more powerful as a fight progresses. And if it doesn't make that big a difference I'd think you'd be very supportive of just removing the Stacking since afterall, it doesn't make much difference to you.

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I thought it was kewl because it was the only control power we had that would have any impact on an AV fight. Cool ST could stack up accuracy debuffs and be useful in that fight, partially making up for the fact that, oh, every other control power we had sucked wind.

How on gawd's green earth that made ST "overpowered" is beyond me. Other than that, it was a semi-sleep that you could only use after you used some other control power.

Woot.

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You have yet to show that. All you've shown is that ST, as it was initially after I3, at times wasn't a whole lot worse than every other AoE control power. As it is now, you've shown that it's a whole lot worse than Blind.

Scatter sucks. A power that scatters w/o any other benefit sucks. ST is one of those powers.

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Be Nice.

The original Issue 3 ST,

-Imob Groups of mobs, and prevented attacks unless attacked
-It also debuffed and stacked with itself -acc until the point the mob cudn't hit.
-Mobs that can't hit back with success, and can't move, are pretty much sitting ducks
-ST was perma from the time you get it
-No defenses were designed for mobs against fear, unlike holds, since orgianlly it was an oh pooo power.

Is that powerful? I'd say yes.

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I'd say "yes," too, if you think "average" is powerful.

It certainly wasn't as useful or powerful as Flash. It certainly wasn't as good as PA or Phantasm, probably not as useful as GI, Blind, and SW. At least it was better than Superior Invisibility.

Does that make it powerful? Better than Superior Invisibility? I'd say . . . not.

I don't know why people care about the stackable debuffs. By the time ST put a mob at the accuracy minimum, the mobs were long since dead unless your build was terrible. It was kewl and all, but it didn't add to Subby's power at all.

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People sure like to pick apart peoples posts.

I was in no way comparing ST to blind in my previous post. I am very away that a hold is better than fear. And that you can also hold a monster by spaming holds.

That being said, my intention was to show that with ST as the way it was with I3 makes Illusion too powerful.(thus the change) And that the whole reason they have enemies flee is so the power has a drawback and to make it so it's not just a rip off of another power. This was all I was trying to say.

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You have yet to show that. All you've shown is that ST, as it was initially after I3, at times wasn't a whole lot worse than every other AoE control power. As it is now, you've shown that it's a whole lot worse than Blind.

Scatter sucks. A power that scatters w/o any other benefit sucks. ST is one of those powers.

Or just Tar Patch, or just Lingering Radiation.

I'm not saying there aren't things to do w/ ST, it's just hard to see how ST adds anything to these other powers. It's a marginal benefit that doesn't seem worth giving up, say, Lingering Radiation in the first place.