Granite Agent
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Posts
1028 -
Joined
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Why take Spring Attack over Fireball? I mean, you can fix endo issues with Blues and team buffs ... but you can't beat having Fireball as (a) ranged and (b) up like every 9-10 seconds and (c) doing nearly as much dmg as SA right?
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Quote:Honestly i just sit there watching the buttons in my power tray and pressing the next one when the circle is around the one before it. I don't even look at me fighting the pylon any moreOriginally Posted by docbuzzard
Hell I got too bored trying to finish one run on my kinetic melee stalker and gave up. I was around 1/2 down or so.
I give kudos with those capable to taking the tedium for the sake of knowledge.
I do keep one eye on the stopwatch on my phone haha
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Quote:With T4 Musc now, alongside T4 Degen, and the new chain of AS-SR-PS-SS I am now getting times of around 3.10-3.15. My best so far was 3.03 and I've had outliers the other way (e.g., 3.25). I think the RNG on procs really comes into play, and a single miss of AS, or a mis-timing on BU, can really cost you seconds.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Switched up my build to run
[BU-AS-SR] ... PS>MB ... AS>SR>PS>MB (repeat)
got a best time of 3.24 in 5 runs
that's about 315 dps, or 17 dps more than my previous runs (3.45 for 298 dps).
I would have expected a bit more. Shrug.
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3.03 is ~338 dps so perhaps that's closing in on the theoretical max? A more average time of 3.15 is ~325dps.
EDIT: noted that in the context of Degenerative, "DPS" is a bit misleading as it's really "effective dps" considering Degen's -HP buff lowers the pylon's HP and thus reduces the time to defeat it. It's not pure dps addition like Reactive and its -RES alongside DOT. Never meant to imply otherwise. With Degen, I defeat pylon in [X] time and have [y] effective dps. -
Well here's my latest, post i22. Not sure if it's helpful to you.
I like Fireball in the APP ... it recharges quick, gets boosted by AAO, and makes a great 1-2 punch with shield charge. I liked having a damage proc in MG too, so I only 5-slotted the ATO there (critical slot is in DC).
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Actually this is my post ATO build. Enough native recharge w/o hasten to chain Shatter-Clobber-Pulverize-Jawbreaker on ST.
Has T4 Musc and T3 Reactive.
Edit: yeah, the problem is this ... just did a fast pylon test, rounding up a bunch of monkeys for AAO... still took me like 4.30 which is slow in today's incarnted i22 world. Granted this build isn't optimized with procs etc but that's because of how it was built to softcap shield. I'm open to suggestions.
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Here's my WM/SD. I've incarnated him up. But I don't play him as much for 2 reasons:
1) Hard to balance building a good ST attack chain with having to soft-cap shield.
2) Def sets like shield are being punished end-game by cheaty incarnte to hit bonuses.
Very open to suggestions to tweak the build.
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Quote:I know, I know. But there was Pylon testing to be done RIGHT THEN with the new build ... something had to giveOriginally Posted by Fulmens
Dammit, Granite Agent! You resisted our mind control rays! AND you didn't have to wait overnight for that bid to fill! (OK, slightly more constructively: I think of things as filling "in about five minutes", "Overnight", and "over a weekend." A lot of people buy and sell at the beginning or end of their play session, and a lot of people play more on weekends. Good on you for waiting, bad on you for not waiting ENOUGH. )
(and the answer is 315dps for a staff/ela stalker under T3 Musc, T4 Degen haha)
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Reppu and I are pulling down pylon times of about 3.22 - 3.24 on Stalkers. That's about 315-317dps. With T3 Musc, T4 Reactive / Degenerative.
So it's actually OK performance on stalkers. Largely due to:
1) AS as a hard-hitting single target attack
2) Ability to maintain an attack chain that does not consume Perfection of Body for Single Targets (AS>SR>PS>MB), so you have constant damage buff
3) You get Build Up too
Buncha threads on staff in the stalker forums. -
Quote:Also if you are using waterspout, you should be getting higher dps than me. All my times are just with the attack chain shown. We are awfully close on DPS which is interesting if you are continuing to use waterspout.Originally Posted by Reppu
Hybrid will just add the same amount of damage to all sets, so it's TL;DR.
I have Tier 4 Musculature now. I'll run another test... in a bit.
Not sure if it is a difference in procs, or if it is the difference between your T4 Reactive and my T4 Degenerative. -
Last night I needed a Stalker Acc/Dmg ATO to complete my new build. But the market ones were going for 30M+ despite some recent sales of 5M.
I was pissed. I let a bid stand for about an hour but it didn't fill at 20M.
So I bought a different stalker ATO for 3.55M. And then I spent 6 converters to get it to Acc/Dmg (2 tries at in-set conversion). Worth it? No idea, probably not if there is a value attached to converters.
Value of sticking it to the marketeer trying to make me pay 30M+ for this ATO? Priceless
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Quote:I'm curious what T4 Musc, instead of T3, will do.Originally Posted by Reppu
I think we can safely assume Staff for Stalkers caps at around 320 DPS, then.
Then there is always Hybrid
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Quote:I think 3.45 is 298dps per the formula, hence a 19dps difference?Originally Posted by Reppu
SR > PS > AS > SS = 3:45 = 293 DPS
MB > SR > AS > PS = 3:22 = 317 DPS
= 24 DPS Difference
I got a 17 dps difference so we are in the margin of error (3.24 best time with me under new chain). -
Switched up my build to run
[BU-AS-SR] ... PS>MB ... AS>SR>PS>MB (repeat)
got a best time of 3.24 in 5 runs
that's about 315 dps, or 17 dps more than my previous runs (3.45 for 298 dps).
I would have expected a bit more. Shrug.
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Quote:Actually I've gone on record withOriginally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I have to wonder if the PPM change Synapse announced is going to be like the next ED or GDN.
We can call it the Great Proc Blocking of 2012.
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A-proc-alypse (Now or 2012)
Proc-Tology Exam (2012) -
IMHO you only see the crazy goodness of TW when you run the chain Combat figured out which requires something like close to 300% recharge (between Global and power) in Follow Through.
RA-FT-CB-AOD-FT I believe where RA kicks off Momentum.
During Build Up, hit BU then run the chain above modified as follows
RA-FT-CB-AOD-FT-CB-WS
Crazy dps ... watch the health bars of AVs move at your will! -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
It's base recharge time. If you have a single target attack slotted with a 2 ppm IO, the power would need to have a 30 second recharge to have a 100% proc chance. You could then IO it to ~100% recharge and combine that with 100% global recharge bonus to get the power's recharge down to 10 seconds, and it would still have that 100% proc chance. This is how all of the store-bought IO set procs work, as well as the ATO procs that are not global bonuses. This changes the math on "optimal proccing" significantly from the traditional "flat rate" approach, and causes the performance delta of optimal and non-optimal to be much smaller, so you can really slot these in any power you use and you will see them be effective.
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Quote:I agree with you. I did the same thing. The voices on this board though are keen to point out that nothing being done is illegal and that NCSoft has no liability for these changes given terms in the EULA and items such as "All Sales Are Final." Fair enough.Originally Posted by Karu
While I understand the need to tweak and fix things that are broken or out of whack, these particular changes in planning made me angry enough to finally register on the forum, just to post this.
I've bought PP for the exact purpose of getting market procs, BECAUSE they were guaranteed to fire on slow recharge heavy hitters. I wouldn't pay for something I can easily craft in game. Now you're going to change procs in a way that makes bought and crafted ones identical, making my purchases worthless... and making recharge bonuses less of a bonus and more of a penalty in the process.
This is wrong. I've paid for products that you're going to radically alter, for the worse. I don't want 90% chance (or who knows how much less), I PAID for 100% chance.
The current way works fine. Crafted procs are good for fast recharge powers, store-bought ones are an attractive option for slow recharge ones. The slow stuff is still, y'know, slow, so it's not like the advantage is earth-shattering. Don't try to fix what isn't broken.
Re-think this, please. It's a bad idea, all in all.
But it is still bad policy / a bad way to treat consumers. I've bought hundreds of dollars of items from the Store, including procs that I would never have bought if they didn't have the SBE mechanic (hello Mako's Bite Lethal!). A nice customer relations decision would be to credit back some Paragon Points to the accounts of everyone who bought these type of SBE procs. It really costs nothing to NCSoft, and would ease the pain just a bit.
Also, the "new formula" that is punishing builds using +recharge Alpha Slots is whack. Alpha recharge buffs should be excluded like Global recharge buffs and hasten. -
I used up the slots in this version. Shrug.
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Here's a redone version to run the
AS > SR > PS > MB chain (which I think will be higher DPS based on Auroxis and Reppu's testing)
It didn't seem to really need the recharge from Heca 5-slotted. And slotting 5 hecas into PS seems a waste. So I rejiggered the slotting to 3-slot the ATO twice, separately, for an extra 5% S/L.
This frees up 3 slots -- I left them in Brawl unslotted because I don't know what to do with them. Any suggestions?
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Quote:The table above makes me very worried. Perhaps I am not reading it correctly. I have 2 stalkers that run with 165%-185% GLOBAL recharge, before using Ageless. And with Ageless that number goes up well over 200%.Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, now onto the example. Let's use Assassin's Strike slotted with Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide (Standard):
CURRENT PPMs
Assassin Strike
Base Recharge: 15 seconds
Cast Time: 1 second
Area Factor: 1
Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
PPM: 4
Proc Chance: 106.7%
PROPOSED PPMs
Assassin Strike
Base Recharge: 15
Cast Time: 1 second
Area Factor
Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
PPM: 6
0% Global Recharge/Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
0% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 86.9%
100% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 60.8%
200% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 48%
300% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 40.3%
Superior Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
0% Global Recharge/Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
0% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
100% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 76.1%
200% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 60%
300% Global Recharge/95% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 50.4%
PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 50% bonus to existing PPMs.
You can use the formula I listed above to figure out how this will impact you. If you're confused how all of this works I am happy to answer questions. My goal here is to enlighten you all on the complex world of procs. Also, I am currently considering having a minimum chance to proc that scales with the enhancements Procs Per Minute if that is possible with the code. We'll have to see.
Regards,
Synapse
Plus with a 5-slot Superior Stalker ATO set in AS, I assume they have close to 90-95% recharge in that power.
From the chart above, it looks like the stalker guile proc would have only a 60%-65% chance to fire at those recharge rates ... which is a big letdown from the 100% currently. That seems like a pretty significant change that is really penalizing high-recharge builds.
A-proc-alypse? -
Quote:Hm, OK. So the theory best chain is [AS>SR] ... PS > MB > AS > SROriginally Posted by Auroxis
Yes, since you want your highest damaging attack to utilize the extra crit from AS. And the second highest damaging afterwards just in case you miss.
I just ran the numbers and results say that it's about the same DPS as AS-SR-PS-MB before reactive. So yeah, best to ditch SS for attack chains and leave it as a burst/mitigation tool or simply not take it.
Nice build BTW.
is that right?
so you use SR (2nd best attack after AS), and then PS after SR in case SR misses?
You guys are doing great work. I may respec over the weekend and test this new chain. -
Quote:Hint: don't eat blues. It kills your dps. Surprising but true. Craft recovery serum, hit it before you start the fight. You are testing dps -- don't throw that off using inspis.Originally Posted by FallenHero
My DPS is very low compared to others (poor attack chain). But, hopefully, it will be a useful data point.
*Net Endurance Gain would actually be a little higher due to turning off Ninja Reflexes and [Aura of Mot]. Still no where near enough to solo a pylon without inspirations. -
I wonder how the Great Proc Nerf is going to change this now
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This is very bad for stalkers and for high-recharge stalkers in particular. Please PM Synapse and express your dismay for how this pummels the Stalker ATO proc when slotted in AS.