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Quote:If you had, you'd know there's no subservience to StatesmanYes, they do. At least, from what I've seen.
Though they certainly have more independence than Villains do (Oh, cruelest of ironies!), every single Hero is someone that answered Statesman's spam email asking for help with the reconstruction effort. Not to mention the fact that Statesman is our Superman/CaptainAmerica/Positron, and that it's an inherent implication that we all hope to be as good as him someday.
It's a more willing and loving subservience, but it's always been my perception that it exists.
(Again: Haven't played that much Heroside compared to most of you)
On the "Hero's Hero" arc, where you rescue Statesman from Tyrant, the storry summary finishes:
When you rescue him, Statesman says:Quote:"Paragon City is a little brighter now, with Statesmen back among its people. There's no doubt that you, like Statesman, have earned a place among the city's brightest stars."
And Maria Jenkins, the arc contact, finishes off by saying:Quote:"Thank you, [character name]. I have been watching your career for some time.
I'm not surprised you've come this far. Keep fighting the good fight."
And Statesman's debriefing after you complete his TF:Quote:"He said to tell you that he was glad to see Paragon City had been in good hands while he was away. Statesman isn't careless with his praise; it seems pretty clear to me that he thinks the world of you."
He doesn't talk down to us, and we don't treat him as our boss - there's mutual respect, no subservienceQuote:Recluse is defeated, and his plans are in ruins. Honestly, I wish I had been the one to do it, but... that's pride talking.
No, this is your day, this is your moment to shine! Look over this great city, and see what you have done today! Every person who lives in freedom from this day forward owes that freedom to your valor, your determination, and your heroism. Recluse may yet return, but you have shown the people of the world that they need no longer live in fear of his name. For when evil arises, it shall be confronted and defeated by the champions of this City of Heroes!"
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Quote:Because that's the way heroes and villains work - villains are all about power - getting power, holding power, increasing their power, and, importantly, displaying their power - they're all about controlling, intimidating and dominating other people, either as their end goal, or as a way to their end goal.That's a stupid conclusion and a stupid rule. Heroes don't all have Statesman as a boss in any form. Why do villains have to have a boss but heroes don't?
Villains are all about the last person standing - or at least, being so powerful that even if all the threats to your power aren't dead, you're too powerful now for them to trouble you.
As a villain, your fellow villains are rivals for power - and if you don't crush them, they'll crush you.
Villains are selfish, heroes are selfless - a hero doesn't look at another hero and see a threat, or someone they can control, or someone they can serve to gain enough power to eventually overthrow them - a hero doesn't want the people they protect to be scared of them and their power, and a hero doesn't expect to be rewarded for what they do - heroes do what they do because they have the power to help people.
Heroes want to preserve and protect, villains want to change and destroy - and from an MMO point of view, one of those mindsets is way easier to turn into a game than the other.
That's why you have Recluse as your boss - because there has to be a justification to the limit the game puts on your villain activity.
Now, the devs could have gone with an EVE style set up, and just had the Rogue Isles as territory and players could band together and seize, so there'd be constant warfare between the VGs trying to increase, gain or hold on to their power - but that would've required a very big emphasis on PvP, as well as making solo players and casual players less likely to enjoy it - so they went for a similar game set up to CoH, with Arachnos as reason players couldn't turn the Rogue Isles into insane free-for-all power grab.
And that's why Statesman isn't the "boss" blue side - becasue we don't need one - if you took out all the signature heores, and gave their TFs to non-super contacts, there'd be totally no difference to the game world - we'd still run the same missions - we'd help people, protect people, save people and so on.
But if you took Arachnos out of CoV, the red side game world would collapse - there's be thousands of villains with nothing holding them back from trying to seize power and dominate all the others. -
I don't really see what the point of this would be...
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They have to design arcs for the most common types of hero, rather than the more specialist types
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Quote:So what you mean is that all Villaisn really want is a little garden to call their own?Exactly. It still had GRASS. Granted the lack of huge piles of trash everywhere may be more the Devouring Earth's doing rather than Arachnos, but it's STILL cleaner than most of the rest of the game.

I think that you maybe misread the joke a bitQuote:A) You're still assuming everyone that wants City of Villains wants nothing more than to be an underling.
B) Even those few that ARE cool with the idea of working for Arachnos aren't playing this game to be a damn garbage man. Hell that's the reason why I refuse to play Terrance Dobbs even though that means I don't get access to the (in my opinion) much better contact Dr Forrester. Dobbs is a level 40 contact that is nothing more than Dale Gribble from King of the Hill. His only concern is killing bugs, and being the only one that's good at killing bugs (with the help of the player). Granted, the bugs are over seven feet tall and walk erect, but the slightest hint of intrigue and it's "Oop, better leave that be. Don't care what they are, as long as someone pays me to lay the bug traps.
As for how independant a Villain can be in the game, I think you'll have to accept that you're always going to have Recluse as a boss in some form or another, because that's the way the game's been designed and set up.
But being an enforcer for him could be made into a better experience - like he trusts you enough to give you pretty much a free hand - so you can still be a badass villain without totally being your own boss.
Like Darth Vader was just an enforcer for the Emperor, but he was still a totally badass villain, so maybe more feedom along that line might make red side players happier? -
Quote:It still has that faded, dirty looking evil grass though, instead of the bright, clean heroic grass that's on the other side of the fenceHell, the Abyss is still a vast improvement over most of CoV as far as cleanliness goes.

Maybe that could be a new VEAT - an Arachnos Sanitation Offcier? Like Reclsue could be trying to find the person destined to clean up the Rogue Isles, and as you complete arcs and missions where you have to empty dumpsters, scrub off graffiti and unblock the sewer system, you'd see actual changes to the zones, with the current landfill look being retextured into something cleaner.Quote:Actually, a good share of the trash in the zones is extra layers of texture over clean, and complete looking walls and sidewalks. We've seen that thanks to glitches from early in CoV's release. So, if anything, it would improve the look AND the performance to just remove some of the trash, where revamping Hero zones actually requires texture remodeling.
Sure, you'd still be working for Recluse, but at least your actions would be having an actual impact on the game world
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Quote:But don't you get all those things already in some form in CoV?Evil enough that civillians flee in my wake. Evil enough that my enemies die. Evil enough that my enemies attack me for more than the color of my tights.
Like civilians running away from you on mayhem misisons, and missions where you actually get to murder people? Plus, I'm sure Longbow attack you for more than just your fashion sense
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Quote:I know - but like I said, it's an art style choice, and the Abyss didn't really show they were planning on changing it either.Again, you can do Grim and hopeless without having people live in a trash heap. Those that have seen the entire Paragon City know that there is considerably more to it than just what the AE has to offer, and those that have actually seen the entire Rogue Isles know that the same can be said for those maps. And yes, every zone, including just off screen of the Grandville tower map has the people in the Rogue Isles living in a landfill. Not over top a closed one, living amongst piles of trash on fire.
Grim and gritty doesn't have to mean filthy.
Also, another problem is that what you're asking for would need an actual change to the zone geometry to remove the landfill look - which would involve way more wrok than just adding brighter grass or brick textures to the existing surfaces. -
Quote:Well, ignoring the fact you've just said that you only need to look at mercy island to know what the entire CoV game world looks like, there's also the fact that the AE contains more than one red side outdoor mapThis is like saying seeing the Steel Canyon-esque maps in the AE gives someone a perfect idea of what Paragon City in it's entirety looks like.

The Rogue isles have been designed with a particular art style to make them feel grim and hopeless - it's not like that's just the way that it happened to turn out - and as they designed the art style to match the lore, unless they're planning a major villain lore revamp, then the red side zones aren't going to change their look.
Even the newest single faction zone added to the game, the Abyss, keeps with that style, so it's seems it's still their intention to keep the Rogue Isles looking the way they do now. -
Quote:One weird thing I've been wondering about is that when he seems so big on the dark gleaming techno evil look, his actual outfit is strangely dirty and faded looking - like his armor plates are scratched and battered looking, when I'd have thought he'd have some sort of sleek dark chrome texture on them.Well of course Lord Recluse's home would look decent. But aside from the giant casino pyramid, it's really the only area.
I think his outfit actually looks pretty cool and menacing, but the textures and colors just seem to make it less cool and evil looking than it could be.
No need to do that - the MA lets me tour parts of the Rogue Isles in safetyQuote:I know you can't stand the idea of playing the game, but I would seriously suggest you roll up a Stalker, skip the tutorial, and just look around Mercy with hide running. Then realize that the entire game looks like that.
EDIT: Heck, you yourself have promoted exploration in this very thread, so consider this your chance to explore something new. You don't have to take mission one, heck the Hide power is good enough you don't have to even engage in a fight, just take a look, and see what people are complaining about.
And from what I've seen, it does look pretty bleak and hopeless - but it's also a consistant look, and fits the lore of the Rogue Isles pretty well. -
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Quote:I think Grandville looks very impressive on the STF - the tower's hugeYou know, you can still have 'dark and gritty' and still look good at it. Many incarnations of Gotham City pull that off well. It's dark, cramped, shadowy and menacing, but it still looks iconic, and impressive. The Rogue Islands looks like someone lit a landfill on fire.
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Quote:You know, making an AV that can be a challenge to a full team of 8 players isn't really cheating - it's just sensible game designSpeaking for myself, no I have not. Nor do I intend to. Nor do I see a reason to even care.
High-level super-task-forces don't interest me. They're just a case of the game rubbing signature characters in my face and trying to convince me they're so much better than me by cheating and giving them stupid amount of spare stats. There's a reason I almost never do TFs and SFs. I prefer to play the parts of the game where I can pretend I'm the big bad and my dad can beat up your dad. It's not the entire game, true, but if I pretend the rest doesn't exist hard enough, it actually kind of doesn't.
And signature characters in TFs are an important way of making them more unique - Recluse seems more special when we have to do the STF to fight him - unless you just happen to be really lucky with a Safeguard mission
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Quote:And the darkest shade of gray is blackYou know I wonder if you're really going to enjoy GR as much as you think.
The last interview with War Witch suggests that the two sides in Preatoria are more about shades of gray than black and white.
I'm not sure how much Praetorian content I'll actually be doing - like it sounds like the majority of the GR storyline is in the 1-20 stuff, so that'd have tpo be done via flashback - although I think we'll probably get a chance to beat up Tyarnt and his thugs at a higher level, as it'd be kinda weird to have them all capped at 20, especially as the current ones can go to 54.Quote:Will you stop playing an arc if it has your 'hero' Preatorian help to commit an 'unspeakable' act?
I think the best you can hope for there is possibly PvE base raids as part of a general base revamp in the future, as bases are already your personal stronghold.Quote:As to the original question by the OP. This really is very much a matter of writing and presentation. There have also been a lot of good replies here already.
Even so, I would have liked to see villains have personal strongholds and some kind of system for measuring their influence in the Rogue Isles. Like doing missions for contacts will give you villainous control points that you can use to undertake various schemes from building up your personal base of operations, to major assaults on Paragon City. Even having a kind of RTS system where you set up base defenses to repel invasions from heroes similar to Dungeon Keeper.
And they might add NPC staff for bases too, as that's been requested a lot, so even if you were still being ordered around by Recluse, you could come home to your lair and take out your frustration by ordering your own minions around
I really don't think the Rogue Isles will get a nicer look - especially as they've now retconend Praetoria to be a gleaming futuristic place, instead of the run down ruined dump that we've seen in the current Praetorian arcs - if they'd still gone with that look for GR, then it's posisble they might have changed the look of the Rogue Isles to make the two places more distinctive - but with GR now giving us a shiny techno evil setting, I think the Rogue Isles will remain as the dark and gritty evil setting.Quote:Redside really needs some attention and work. Not because it's broken...but because it needs to set itself apart from COH and be more unique apart from ATs(which will be a non-issue soon) and art style(which seems to be the thing that's stuck in everyone's craw). -
Quote:Then quite hating on him if he's irrelevantEh, whenever the heroes/villains travel into the future, Statesman is always dead. It is fated to happen, and is really the only constant I have noticed when characters travel to the future.
And good riddance when it happens, I say. Emperor Cole notwithstanding, Statesman stopped being relevant a long time ago.
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Quote:That doesn't sound that villainous - like genuine heroes would also try and take down a corrupt hero too.While I'm recommending villain arcs, I thought I'd draw attention to "An Internship In the Fine Art of Revenge", also by @Twoflower, also a DC/HOF. The contact is less powerful than you, respects you, and needs you more than you need them. The morality blurs from "honor among thieves" to mercenary, but it's definitely a villainous arc that culminates in the defeat and humiliation of a corrupt hero.
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He's probably just trying to show you what his hobbies and interests are, so the two of you can get to know each other better and maybe take your realtionship to the next level.
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Quote:I'm sure AntiMatter will be delighted to hear that you think Neuon is a major player, but he isn'tFocus on the major players. I'd love to show you concept for some of these, but it'll have to wait.

And considering Dominatrix's family connections, and Chimera's job, they might be a little put out to be dismissed like that too
But I'm going to focus on the "some of these" part, because that could be interpreted as meaning that only some of those I mentioned are going to feature in GR
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Quote:Those people are mostly the ones who can't, or won't, separate the character from the developerWhich is odd, as the vocal forum community has even turned on Statesman at this point. Those that care enough to post wish he'd just be downed, but there's no surgically sound way to excise the malignancy.

Statesman's presence in the game is so small that it's quite easy to totally miss him. -
Quote:They'll still be the same, and still be on the forum banner, looking down on you from on highSpotlight-stealing jerks, the both of them. The game would be better without them.
Hopefully the new Incarnate system will do something to remove those two from their unearned pedestals.
They're the face of the game, so you're always going to see them somewhere.
But if you really dislike them that much, then I suggest you only play blue side - the way morality works means that Statesman is way less of an in-game presence that Recluse


