Gemini_2099
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Posts
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Quote:Art/animation definitely is tied up with Issue 21 for Incarnate content. Only hope is that they have something up their sleeve that says otherwise.Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
It's not rage. I used up all my rage in the post-I20 announcement forum wars. As I said in the first part of my post, the pro-solo/small team argument is a lost cause, for now, so long as the new shiny remains new and shiny.
So call it a /mehquit. There's nothing in this issue that interests me, and seeing every new art asset, map, enemy group, mechanic and power being poured into TFs and Raids really does take the shine of the existing game that I do normally enjoy. The likelihood is that I21, at least, will be more of the same, because they need to get more trials out there before everyone starts complaining that they have nothing to do with their 50+ characters. The devs can barely support CoV in addition to CoH (hence the increasingly boring emphasis on co-op content that has spilled over into the Trials) so how do they expect to feed the need for Incarnate content in addition to that?
Put it a different way. Someone in the beta forums (I forget who) summarised the current direction of the game as "We're sorry you don't like large team content, because we really want you to like large team content." For the first time I'm really wondering what the game will look like in a year's time, and whether or not it's still going to be a game I want to spend time on.
And if I21 won't be 'all team/trial all the time' then why is that all we're hearing about? Answer: becaue they really really want us to like large team content. Add in I22 (not an unreasonable possibility) and you're looking at 2012 before they've got this established, never mind whatever comes next.
It's not about me wanting the powers but not wanting to grind for them. I have 2 50s, both naturals. Neither of them really want to be throwing giant AoEs of godly death around, or have a Praetorian ghost/spirit/whateverthehellitis following them around. It's more about a shift in the culture of the game, which I think we're already seeing, with all the forum trash talk about people not wanting to 'work' for their rewards. Nah, not for me. If I wanted to run the same stuff over and over again for epic loot I'd be playing the 800lb gorilla, not City of Heroes. -
Quote:Character homogeneity is the worst trend to happen to the MMORPG industry in years.Originally Posted by SynakulOne
tldr, but it sounds like character homogeneity.... Doom!
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Quote:How do you know they are powerful enough in base form? At what point do the devs balance future encounters around? If it is just base form, expect others to blow through the new content within a week....oh wait that is happening now.Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
To be fair the main reason to get the Rare over the Uncommon is the Level shift in the Lore and Destiny slots. The powers as they exist in base form and uncommon form are PLENTY powerful, and the only reason to get the level shift is is you play the trials, since those level shifts only exist within the trial.
Which means that if you want to get an uncommon in every slot you're looking at 180 shards and 200 million to craft each uncommon. By the time you get 180 shards 200 million is actually not unreasonable a price, the question becomes is 180 shards reasonable.
The commons are so good they're kind of a game changer all on their own, so the above numbers might not entirely be accurate to what would be useful for the small content player outside of trials. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Agreed! Forbin is right if the "GRIND" is getting to you go do something else. Or in the mad rush to gain new powers have you forgetten that this issue also gave us a new 20-40 level task Force Blue side and a similar 20-40 level Strike Force Red side. The WST is the Imeprious Task Force which offers up the usual Notice, which can be converted to shards and shards to threads, and also give double Reward Merits.
Personally I don't see the trials as a grind but as a new challange and a new set of goals to reach. But even I took time out to run the ITF mainly because I wanted to see how my new powers would work on something other than IDF warworks.
I understand your concern.. I have 12 characters I am doing the incarnate stuff with and so far I have worked on one of them and have three slots open and only one at tier three for the added level shift. But I didn't get those 12 characters to tier 4 overnight and I did other things besides just running the same TFs over and over along the way. Also keep in mind that they have already said there would be more Trials to do in the future this is just the beginning. If it starts to feel like a grind .. go do something else for a while! They don't hand out badges for being the first to get all the new stuff done.
Why are people defending the farming of two trials, but staged an uproar over the farming of AE arcs? -
Quote:End game content is the most narrowest niche one can find in a MMORPG. Furthermore, this is the first niche which will take up multiple issues just to flesh out unlike the other niches you have mentioned.Originally Posted by TrueMetal
You mean the same narrow focus of solo content? PvP? Base Building? AE? badges?
I dare say that the Trials have much broader appeal than any of those. -
Quote:Well said.Originally Posted by Madame Nemesis
So then it's official... I'm in the gripe club lol. Yes it's true... 11.5 months of total COH addiction and I'm not going anywhere. I understand what you're saying... people don't adapt happily to change, it's human nature. At the same time I totally love how the devs keep adding new content and can't wait to see what the future brings.
See... I think a large part of the problem is that I'm trying to team with people on freedom in atlas where toons were born and raised in a single day. There's so many. When they do that they don't learn how to play their toon well. Who knows what percentage of the leagues I've been on that have been comprised of 'insta-toons'? and now we're expecting this population to adapt (well and happily) to not a new tf... but leagues and end game trials that shift the level of our toons and that shift is dependant on only these 2 trials.
Whatever it is in the game that makes so many people want to bypass the content created for them needs to be fixed. I realize this happens in every game but it's so prevalent that it's effecting miss 11.5 month account holder (and I'd imagine many others) ... especially when things like this come out.
Imagine being on a league and every other toon on that league is familiar with their skills, how to play... they've spent time on their toon, hanced it up, spent their hard earned money... we wouldn't be having the same problems we're having now, at least not to this magnitude.
The narrow focus will have effects on the rest of the game. -
Quote:Your surrender is noted.Originally Posted by TrueMetal
So, you're a hypocrite. Congratulations.
And you got it wrong. Eva Destructions post miffed me. You're just amusing.
The alternative options are not viable in a reasonable time frame as we already determined that in beta. -
Quote:We came to the same conclusions in the beta. There is no real alternative methods that can be chosen for a reasonable time frame.Originally Posted by MrLiberty
10 Shards gets you 5-10 threads.
12 shards gets you 3 common or 1 uncommon piece of salvage.
10 threads get you nothing.
20 Threads gets you 1 common piece of salvage.
60 Threads gets you an uncommon.
340 Threads + 100 Mil influence gets you 1 rare.
1360 Threads + 800 Mil influence gets you 1 very rare
GL getting 1,360 shards over 5 ish months (Assuming you can earn 10 shards a day every day) And that is just for the piece of rare salvage required for it. If you want to break down what you need total to get a tier 4.
You are looking at 15 Commons 2 uncommons, 2 Rares and 1 Very rare orrrrrr 2,460 shards to reach 1 tier 4 incarnate ability. (Plus 1.6 Billion influence). Of course this will take you a little over 8 months of playing 1 character every day. To slot out 1 of your incarnate slots.
Whats that? You want all four. I hope you didn't have any plans for the next 3 years if you are a solo player.
Grinding of the two same trials and putting it on farm status appears to be the accepted policy now. -
Quote:Good post.Originally Posted by SuperOz
I've kind of been down this road before on other MMO's where raiding was just the expected thing; just look at any fantasy MMO and you'll know what I'm talking about. But it's a fundamental thing in any game design that players, when offered the choice, will take the path of least resistance. If you say the shiny is over there and you can go through a very difficult path and it has a learning curve and so on and you can experience this game content, OR you say you can do something less intensive and difficult, players will choose the second the majority of the time.
This isn't rocket science, this is known psychology. I'm not saying these Trials shouldn't exist, but the difference between this and other endgame scenarios are that you can take the rewards with you after you complete them. To have theoretical levels beyond 50 but they're unseen and in fact don't exist outside the Trials seems like counterproductive thinking to me. Revamp the Shadow Shard to be truly dangerous and requiring Incarnate powers to even go there, and I'll applaud you.
Give me Incarnate powers and then bottleneck me in such a way that the reward is significantly less than the risk and I'm going to question your judgement.
S.
It is what it is, but most don't want to admit it. -
Quote:Issue 21 appears to have more of the same on the way, so I can understand that view point.
This, seriously. If you enjoyed playing the game before i20, and i20 took nothing away, why would you quit the game now that i20 is here and you don't want to do the content? -
Quote:Biggest problem with Incarnate content is that its end game is designed like other end games. The Paragon Studios team has said they wanted to avoid the traditional end game, but they apparently have it in spades:Originally Posted by Clouded
I had a sneaky suspicion your estimate did not include the forming of the team. And pleae stop throwing around veiled insults, it's very immature.
Hey guy. The completion time for Lambda and BAF is also variable.
So, you are willing to count the variable nature of the actual task but not the setup time? K.
What about the other 15-23 people that were already in the zone. Did you survey each one to find out how long they were waiting for the league to fill?
You assume that because people decide to post feedback that they are not having fun. Here's a revelation for you...just because players post feedback does not mean they are not enjoying the content or are even upset. It's you that keeps resorting to grade school insults (see your first post above).
Case in point. I like the trials. They are very fun and even with my limited play time, I can still log in and enjoy one or two a week. My only issue with the...well...Issue comes down to the lack of options for the Incarnate System. I feel the devs should take a look at making existing content applicable for earning threads and/or components. And/Or revising the current converstion method for shards -> threads.
*Grinding a limited amount of end game instances to obtain gear/currency to make the encounter easier to farm. Farming is officially encouraged now unlike the past. AE farming was killed off rather quickly.
*Alternative methods are not reasonable any longer, which reinforces the point above. Alternative methods were viable with the Alpha slot.
*The addition of more level shifts means that you have to enter the Incarnate system to see the story from this point forward. 20-40 TF don't fill in the gaps enough in my opinion.
*Addition of new currencies to counteract hording, which leads to more confusion
*Gear reset. It doesn't matter if you have SO's or IO's you will face plant the same in the trials at some point. Thus you are forced to feel weak, and are supposed to have the temptation to grind the trials to become whole, normal, or strong again. E.D. was hated because of the tearing down of the super feeling of the game, and this isn't any different. Like E.D. it may have long term logical reasons as to why it is done from a game balance stand point, but it clearly isn't being communicated to well that is the case. -
Quote:I merely reciprocate the spirit of your post, and you apparently aren't amused when the tables are turned with a snarky retort to your snarky comment.Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I'll stop as soon as people stop using dumb hyperboles like "slap in the face".
Talk about entrenching responses. -
Let me clarify that I think adding an end game was needed for the game's ability to open up options. In addition, it would take some issues to flesh out the foundation of it. But if it ties up the art/animation team for 1-2 more issues beyond issue 20, then it starts to overwhelm the rest of the game.
Incarnate content is a small segment of the game, and yet the devs are spending their time on it as if it is the core of the game. Such perception, even if untrue, is starting to build with some long time players.
There is no way currently to tell if Incarnate content is a success or a failure. But I can't say it is a resounding success if staples of past issues (eg costume pieces) are left in the dust. -
Quote:Good post.Originally Posted by Hercules
Having attempted both trials a few times and seeing a few of the "enhancements", just a few thoughts:
1. I dont care much for the new colored player names. Yellow is for +1 con enemies and Purple is for +3 or higher level enemies. I really wish they'd return the standard color for player names and leave it alone.
2. The trials are extremely buggy and unstable as is. In the future they need to stress test these things a bit more. I'm getting extremely frustrated just trying to complete these things without being dbserved or randomly having the trial terminated.
3. The trials require a great deal of coordination that most PUGs just dont have. (especially when talking about multiple groups of people) I think they need to develop single group TFs that provide the same rewards.
4. I've played other games that provide the same level of difficulty as the trials, if not more. What I've seen in those games is more and more discrimination against new participants. Oh, you dont have "X" level/power/ability? Sorry, cant use you. I'm just afraid to see this game devolve into the same "arms race" that is prevalant in other MMORPGs.
I've already seen players advertising "Tier 4 Level 51/2/3 Fully IOed whatever" LFG or TF.
5. The League chat needs to be turned on by default. I have the feeling that many people dont know of its availability yet. Either that, or they just dont listen to directions.
6. The time limits in the trials are exasperating. In one BAF, for example, we had killed Siege and had Nightstar down to 3 HPs. We couldnt kill her in sufficient time to avoid full reset. The gap between their deaths needs to be extended OR give bonus time when one of them dies. As is, you get one shot to take both of them down, after that it's pretty much game over.
Also curious as to why we didnt have a followup to take down "Mother".
7. The League interface is unreadable. I cant read text that small and the "classic" option for standard groups isnt quite the same as what we used to have. Suggestions: When viewing by group number only increase the font size. Use the small font size only when viewing 3 or more groups. The classic group option needs to be 100% the old interface. The new green background makes it somewhat hard to read.
The UI needs an overhaul from my view to make it easy on the eyes in my opinion. -
Quote:The equivalent of a slap to the face isn't an option. Let me also add that such responses will only entrench both sides of the argument, and creates a greater divide amongst the player base.Originally Posted by TrueMetal
You have them. You just choose not to use them. Don't confuse things.
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Building for defense is the norm with most Sonic Resonance characters, but I am leaning towards HP/Regen that Brimmy suggested just for fun honestly. It is true though that building for defense allows you to avoid debuffs.
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Quote:Fair enough.Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Nitpicking. You'll notice I also mentioned the Alpha slots in my post.
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Technically the start of end game was the Alpha slot.
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Quote:Yeah that is the scary part.Originally Posted by NuclearToast
They already have.
--NT -
Quote:There is a big divide.Originally Posted by Arilou
You can still advance by doing pretty much any content and converting the shards to threads. (It's slower, yes, but it means you advance even when doing other content than the iTrials)
Remember, the time-gated conversion is pretty good.
You could slowly advance for the alpha slot in a reasonable time frame. The conversion of shards to threads isn't reasonable by any means. -
Quote:Good post, and let me also say this was determined in beta by many others. Grinding for shards isn't a reasonable alternative.Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
I did some math
Tier 1 Boost = 3 Common Salvage = 60 Threads (20 threads each)
Tier 1 Total = 60 Threads
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Tier 2 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads
+1 Uncommon Salvage = 60 Threads
Tier 2 Total = 100 Threads
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Tier 3 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads
+ 1 Rare Salvage = 100 Threads
+ 4 uncommon salvage (60x4= 240 Threads)
OR 8 Empyrean merits
Tier 3 Total = 380 threads
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Tier 4 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads
+ 2 Rare Boosts = 760 Threads (380x2)
+ 1 Very Rare Salvage = 4 Rare Salvage (380x4= 1520 Threads)
+ 400 Million INF
OR 30 Empyrean Merits
Tier 4 Total = 2,320 Threads (with the option to add 400M Inf to the price.)
Thats per boost. So if you want 1 Very rare boost in each new slot, (ignoring for the moment the devs claim that you can switch different boosts in and out.) It'll be 9,280 threads +/-1.6 billion inf.
Now of course you can get some lucky drops, maybe you even get a couple very rare salvages some how (and incredibly lucky I might add, not sure what the drop rate is but that saves you a ton of time.) But seriously, this is insane. CoH has always been for the casual MMO fan, one of the reasons I and I'm sure many others like it so much.
Now the Devs seem to be going in the hardcore direction, because this is insane. I had 7 level 50s I wanted to make incarnate. I don't see that happening. If this endgame is supposed to revive my interest in my level 50s, it's not. It's making me not want to play them. It'd be one thing if I could earn these threads and drops across all level 50 content, like shards, but you can't it's only in these 2 trials... That's absolutely insane. At this point, Unless I want to grind these trials into the ground, there's no point.
I've never been this disappointed by an issue. Honestly the whole build up for the incarnate thing, and now it's come down to this : Be prepared to grind the new content into the ground, because that's what you'll need to do.
The thing is, the new trials are cool, but they aren't that cool, and compared to how little the reward is, they aren't worth it. Honestly, considering how many people have alts and all that to work on.... I'm just amazed the Devs wanted it this way, and amazed that they thought this was a good idea.
If they wanted to make it this hard to earn ,they needed to release more content with it, or fewer slots. It wouldn't seem so bad if it were just Interface and Judgement, but c'mon, these 2 trials are supposed to carry us through 4 of these boosts?
I mean hell, the Alpha slot was grindy for 1 slot with 6 TFs to run for it. Now it's 4 slots and 2 TFs to run for it... Ick....
I don't know what to say, but my girlfriend didn't believe me when she got home tonight and heard me say for the first time, that I'm dissappointed in an issue...
For what ever little it's worth, she's a casual player, and though she hasn't had a lot of time recently she's been interested in getting back into it and checking the incarnate stuff out.. then I told her tonight about what it takes get these rewards and she's already turned off by it...
So it seems for now, Incarnate is for hardcore only, and I'm probably going to very soon put my 50s back on the shelf. I can't see me wanting to grind out 15 of each of these just to get the Tier 4 boost on one of these slots.
I really think the Devs would make this issue much more enjoyable to most people if they chopped these requirements in half at least.
That is like saying a pure natural build 1-50 is reasonable. -
Quote:Many people have lowered their standards. An issue that doesn't release a new costume piece, but a booster is on its way? In the past that would have caused the forums to melt down, but now it is met with a resounding meh.Originally Posted by Battler
Depressing really what people will be happy with these days.
I have to agree that the design that you need the incarnate powers to grind the two task forces more efficiently is a viscious circle, and the worst kind of end game design to embrace.
I have seen no evidence that suggests their design direction was right or wrong.Quote:Originally Posted by Clouded
It's not unheard of for devs to change their mind. Perhaps their datamining showed reasonable evidence to support a raid or grind style end game. So far, they were right.
Now if they could just get the bugs worked out so I stopped getting booted from raids... -
Quote:No the focus is 10 mans, and 25 mans are becoming as deserted as 40 were when people flocked to the 25 mans over the 40.Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
But I already mentioned they're continually building 25 and 10 man content. And they're still producing the content for 25 man, so there's still a market for it.
Not a good idea to borrow that system as it is not compatible to this game or the player base.Quote:Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Familiar doesn't mean the exact same. It shouldn't be any surprise anyways that Paragon is borrowing end game ideas from the most successful MMORPG on the market either. The 800 pound gorilla is still 800 pounds for a reason.
The options are dwindling and we determined in beta that grinding shards + prestige was very time consuming and inefficient compared to raiding. This a purposeful design to push people to raid.Quote:Or you can grind for shards and cash and still run the trials, and there will still be all the old stuff to do alongside new TFs. Again, more options are good, right? -
Quote:It indeed is a double standard.Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
What has me kinda puzzled is that for a bunch of devs who apparently didn't like Farming in their game these new trials reek of MA horticultural activities in many ways.
Repeat this content over and over again to earn thingies you can use to buy shinies with.
Tis puzzling.
Farming, and speed runs were looked down upon, but now this design is embraced.
lol? -
Quote:The market leader has gone from:Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Small squad content like Rikti mothership raids, right? The 800 Pound Gorilla of MMORPG's raid content you can still run with 10 or 25 man teams, which is pretty much the size range for BAF and Lambda. And then you have EVE and Rift's free for alls which AFAIK aren't size-limited.
And its not like we didn't get a new pair of TFs either. You can do massive raids or still do the small team content, they're both still there. More options are good.
40----->25------>10
For the current expansion, 10 mans are the focus now.
The reason the market leader has focused on 10 man PVE, and 10 man RBG PVP is that they have found there is more of a community building then with 40 man raids. Sure 40 man raids is more inclusive due to sheer size, but you are simply a cog in the machine. Your individual efforts don't stand out except when you make a major mistake. Furthermore, it is unreasonable to find that many people now a days as the MMORPG industry is on a decline as whole.
It has been theorized that all the older MMORPG's are becoming hardcore all of sudden because of this shrinking to cater to a "loyal" base. The market leader in the previous expansion was very accessible to all players with their heroics. Now, heroics are very tough unless you have the gear from the very same heroics. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Indeed, that is the design behind the two trials. You must grind them until you obtain the incarnate slots, so you can grind them faster, and more efficiently.