Garent

Legend
  • Posts

    1564
  • Joined

  1. Sets are going to be classified into three categories based on their level of effectiveness.

    Seriously Underperforming: Sets that need to at least be brought up to the level of viable

    Mediocre: Sets that need some slight buffs in order to be brought up to average

    Average to Good: Sets that are fine overall, but have a few weak or useless powers that can be buffed. The goal is to make all powers in the set be usable without too seriously impacting the entire set’s performance.



    Trick Arrow

    Seriously Underperforming

    Here are the facts about trick arrow:
    1: Many powers in the set were made significantly weaker because of overlap. For example, acid arrow and disruption arrow are each only 20% resistance debuffs, while 30% is standard for a defender.
    2: Every power in the set is an enemy targeted click debuff. There are no ally targeted abilities, passives, or even enemy targeted toggles.
    3: Some of trick arrow’s powers have low durations. For example, the debuffs of poison gas arrow and acid arrow only last 20 seconds.

    There are two problems that stem from each of these facts. Because of point 1, even if trick arrow is taken as a whole, it is only numerically average compared to other sets that contain debuffs. Because of point 2 and 3, trick arrow users can spend a significant amount of time in fights not only applying all of their debuffs, but also having to reapply them as they quickly wear off. The end result is that trick arrow users spend more power picks and more time to debuff enemies by similar, if not inferior, amounts as more well rounded sets do.

    The proposal is to overturn the design decision that trick arrow’s debuffs should be significantly weaker individually so that, combined, they become equivalent to the average value of debuffs found in other sets. Trick arrow should, at the very, very least, be competitive with the most powerful debuff sets currently in the game. These changes mainly focus on improving powers to bring them up to par, focusing on varied effects in many places in order to avoid the redundancy that brought about the nerf in trick arrow’s beta phase. There are also a few changes aimed at specializing powers for a specific situation without removing functionality, so that not all powers have to be used in every fight.


    Entangling Arrow has 1/5th the magnitude -Recharge and -Movement than Traps’ Web Grenade (scale 0.1 for the Arrow and scale 0.5 for the Grenade), even though the only other difference they have is rather small Endurance Cost difference (5.2 for the arrow, 7.8 for the grenade). Raise the endurance cost and debuff amounts to match.

    Flash Arrow is currently a fire-once-and-forget power, quickly recharging with a debuff that lasts an entire minute, but doesn’t stack. The problem, though, is that while it allows for aggro-management on the part of the Defender, there are weirdnesses in the NPC aggro mechanics that can cause this to generate aggro for the Defender in a team environment. Increasing the range of the power to 100’ and adding in a small -Range component (-30% for 60s, does not stack from the same caster) would allow for an extra bit of defense on the Defender, as well as synergizing better with their other powers since the -Range would encourage the mobs to clump together (like Acid Arrow with its small AoE).

    Glue Arrow is currently a massive movement slow and a minor -Recharge (20%), which makes it more of a situational annoy-the-mob power than it should be. The -Recharge should be increased in order to provide a bit more damage mitigaiton (to -40%), and should have an additional debuff effect attached to it. It currently is very similar to Tar Patch, but without the massive -Resist. Given the other -Resist in this set, scale 1.5 -ToHit would be a good choice, keeping in theme with it as a power that is hampering the enemy’s ability to take action.

    Ice arrow is a scale 8 duration mag 3 hold that recharges in 18 seconds and has an animation time of 1.67 seconds (and has a small -Recharge effect of scale 0.1). Dominate from the defender’s ancillary pools (which often have their recharges doubled) is a scale 12 duration hold that recharges in 16 seconds, has an animation time of 1.1 seconds, has a 20% accuracy bonus, and does scale 1 damage. In light of this, Ice arrow needs a reduction in recharge time to no more than 16 seconds, and either scale 1 ice damage or an increase in its recharge debuff to be at least scale 0.5.

    Poison Gas Arrow is significantly less powerful than conceptually similar powers of Poison Gas Trap and Poison Trap, and slightly confusing to most people since it appears that it is a location base patch effect, although the actual debuffs and sleep chance are only applied when firing the power. Unlike many other powers in this set, the recharge and duration are such that there is little reason for the effects to be flagged as unstackable - that flag should be removed. Furthermore, the sleep is a mere 66% chance for mag 2, so it is both rare to apply, rare to affect (minion only), and easy to break, meaning this power is mostly useful for the -Damage on team environments. Preferably, this would be changed to a guaranteed mag 2 stun, similar to powers like Thunderclap; this would change the slotting of the power, though, making that a complicated decision. As such, adding in a chance for the vomit animation, a la Poison Gas Trap, would be a nice boon, say, 10 or 20% (it is a mere 1% in PGT, but that power uses a pulsing pseudo-pet to deliver the effect and so has multiple chances to fire). As a final fallback, simply changing it to 100% chance for mag 2 sleep with 66% chance of additional mag 1 sleep would be a useful buff.

    Acid Arrow’s low radius makes it best used against small groups and AVs. The power is rather underwhelming, since it only lasts for 20 seconds and has a relatively low amount of -resistance. Adding a -100% regeneration debuff effect would help make the power worth it. Also, consider increasing the duration of the effects to 30 seconds. As it is, the power is already perma out of the box and doesn’t stack, so increasing the duration would mostly give the archer a bit more breathing room in terms of using his other powers, instead of having to remember to fire this every 20 seconds.

    With acid arrow focusing on smaller groups, disruption arrow is the power meant for softening up large groups of enemies. However, with a target cap of 10 and its only effect being a small 20% resistance debuff, the power has difficulty fulfilling this purpose. Increase the target cap to 17, which is standard for area debuffs. Increase the resistance debuff to 30% as well. Trick arrow having two resistance debuffs should be an advantage for it, not a penalty. Making disruption arrow significantly weaker than other resistance debuffs because it has another source of -resistance is an unfair penalty, especially when the other source is a very small AoE. Additionally, disruption arrow is an opportunity to help with trick arrow’s problem of having to spend so much time applying and reapplying its powers in every battle. Adding a trivial amount of energy damage at the start of disruption arrow will allow a trick arrow user to ignite their own oil slick. This allows them to bring out a significant offense with only two powers, and helps trick arrow play better with partnered sets that don’t have fire or energy damage.

    EMP Arrow does not need the self -Recovery. The 6 minute recharge is punishing enough.

    Force Field

    Mediocre

    Force field is unquestionably a defensive powerhouse, but suffers from many redundant or highly situational powers, making it a one trick pony. The following are some buffs intended to increase force field’s defensive utility and offensive options in the hopes of making its playstyle more interesting and rewarding without increasing its overall performance by too much.


    Compared to its main competitor in Defense buffing, Cold, Force Field relies far more upon its Defense buffing to contribute to the team. As such, some amount of Defense Debuff Resistance should be considered for the set. Consider putting scale 0.4 Res(Defense) in Dispersion Bubble, similar to what Grant Cover provides for allies.

    Force Bolt's damage should be increased to scale 1, making it similar to powers like Levitate and Lift (except knockback instead of knockup).

    Detention Field is a horrible power, but since we want to be careful in replacing it, it should add a massive -Regen, -Recovery and -Recharge effect while it is on to truly arrest the victim. Theoretical programming solution to the issue of debuffs applying even if the target is immune to phasing: have Detention Field apply a GrantPower effect that gives the target a passive power, and that passive power has the debuffs on it with a “if target is phased” flag.

    Repulsion Field is less useful at protecting the user than Hurricane, but costs more endurance and covers a smaller area. Reduce endurance cost to 0.65 end/s to match hurricane. Remove the cost for repelling an enemy.

    Repulsion Bomb's stun chance is only 40% for a mere mag 2, the animation time is way too long, and a recharge of 30 seconds is rather high for a power that only does slightly more damage than a 16 second recharging aoe blast. I’d suggest reducing the recharge to 20 seconds.

    Force Bubble is far too situational, given its large radius and overlapping effects with other powers. The big difference between Repulsion Field and Force Bubble is that Repulsion Field is meant to protect the Force Fielder, while Force Bubble protects an entire team or league by disrupting the enemies. As such, this would be an excellent place to put in some of the debuffs that this set is lacking. Since this power is about protection, and since this power tends to generate a lot of aggro for the Force Fielder, defensive debuffs like -ToHit and -Damage would be a good choice. Comparing this power to Hurricane, which has a smaller radius, something like scale 1.5 -ToHit and scale 1.5 -Damage seems good.

    Sonic Resonance

    Mediocre

    Sonic is a below average set overall, but it has a few niches where it stands out that still makes it useful. Its largest problems are its absurd endurance costs and severe lack of soloability (even compared to empathy). It also has a slight problem in that its resistance buffs are inferior to comparable defense buffs, due to the design decision that defense should be numerically superior to resistance due to resistance’s more reliable nature.
    These changes are focused on vastly improving sonic’s flexibility in battles so that it can do more than simply increasing or decreasing resistance values. Many powers are given new utility and features to make the set more dynamic and interesting to play.


    The damage mitigation provided by the shields in this set is much lower than that provided by those in the defense sets (FF and Cold), and it is also incapable of increasing with Power Boost effects. The defense shields are all scale 1.5, while the sonic shields are only scale 2.0, a ratio of 1.33:1, strange given that resist and defense operate at a 2:1 ratio for non-Incarnate Trial gameplay (where the ratio is 1.5:1). The singular shields need to have their magnitude raised to 3, and the aoe shield to mag 2. Furthermore, defense sets prevent things like mezzes and debuffs from hitting the target, essentially giving them extra mitigation to those effects, so consider adding in additional effects to the shields, especially resistances to debuffs (compare to Force Field which adds Toxic resist of an amount higher than Sonic as well as resistance to endurance drains).

    There is a further issue in that this set contains two different ally targeted toggles. These powers are both punishingly expensive and weaker than their foe/self targeted counterparts, as if the ability to target allies with them was a bonus, though most players find it to be a hindrance (you can’t use it solo, you might not have a meleer on the team, etc). Furthermore, these two powers are mutually exclusive, since one is meant for a meleer who keeps foes around him, and the other for a ranged character who wants to keep foes away from him, thus necessitating that you be teamed with a character of each type. As a result, these powers wind up being rather poor options.

    Sonic Siphon is massively underpowered compared to similar debuffs. Siphon Power, which it shares its name with, recharges in 20 seconds, lasts 30 seconds, stacks on itself, and provides both the caster and everybody around them with a 30 seconds +25% damage buff (also stackable). Sonic Siphon should live up to its name and provide a +Resist(all or all but psionics) effect with each cast (non-stackable mag 3 to self would mean that the Sonic bubbler will have the same amount of resist for himself as for his allies given the shields he can use on them). This kind of personal survivability boost can make soloing easier, given the fact that two of their powers require allies to use. It is likely that this would have to be unenhanceable, but that’s okay.

    Sonic Barrier: Add 86% endurance drain resist (scale 2). The same as is found in insulation shield from force fields

    Sonic Haven: Add 60% slow resist (scale 0.6 Ranged_Ones). The same as is found in arctic fog from cold domination.

    Sonic Cage: see Detention Field.

    Disruption Field should be allowed to target any mob, not just allies. When targeting mobs, it would thus debuff the mob and those around it, like Enervating Field, and when targeting allies, it would function as today. It has the same -Resist as Enervating Field, and its endurance cost is the same as Enervating Field, a punishing 1.04 end/sec (leaving me to believe they were meant to be thematically similar), but without the -Damage. If it is possible to allow it to target either a mob or an ally, then do so and leave its endurance cost as is, otherwise reduce its endurance cost to 0.78 end/sec. Either way, a similar scale 2 -Damage effect should be added.

    Sonic Dispersion has a psi hole, while the various +Defense(all) powers that exist in other sets do not. Consider adding it or providing some other benefit to the power.

    Sonic Repulsion costs far more endurance than the powers that it mimics (Repel and Repulsion Field), and is harder to use on top of that (generally, you only want to use this power on a squishy party member, and you might be the only one that is). This is definitely a power worth changing completely, but if it must be kept (cottage rule), then the endurance cost needs to drop in terms of the toggle and removed for per foe hit to be more inline with other powers. Furthermore, some additional debuff effects would be helpful to keep it on par with powers like Hurricane. Given the difficulty of leveraging this power at the same time as Disruption Field, putting a scale 3 -Damage effect here fits (matching the scale 3 -ToHit of Hurricane).

    Clarity comes far too late in the powerset. It should be swapped with Sonic Repulsion. Either way, this would be a good power to throw in some of the extra damage mitigation that Sonic needs. Frankly, it would make a lot of sense for this power to include scale 2.0 Psi Resistance, given the name. Furthermore, it means that this power will be able to provide something to melee ATs that don’t need the mez protection (see Thaw, which provides both Cold Resist and Slow Resist). Note: Given the changes to shields to supply their non-status protection portions in an AoE, that means Clarity would provide the Psi Resist in an AoE.

    Liquefies recharge is way too long. Freezing Rain, Sleet, and Tar Patch all have similar strength of debuffing, similar or longer (Freezing Rain lasts 15 seconds, but the debuff can linger up to 30 seconds after that) duration, but recharge in only 60 seconds (allowing all of them to stack on themselves with even recharge). Those powers have lower magnitude debuffs (but only by a small amount, and the -Recharge in the rains is much stronger) and have the generally considered more useful -Resist. Comparatively, Rad Infection has similar -Defense and -ToHit values and has a much better uptime (100% against AVs, much lower through normal mob runs due to it being a mob targeted toggle, but still way higher than Liquify’s unslotted 10%). This implies that either Liquefy needs to have its recharge reduced, or to have its effects increased to make it worthy. If going the first route, it’d need to be dropped to 180 seconds (giving it an uptime of ⅙); if going the latter route, I’d suggest upping the duration of the pet to at least 45 seconds (or increasing the duration of the debuff effect of the pet to 15 seconds) and adding in an additional -30% Resist(all).

    Poison

    Seriously Underperforming

    Poison has an odd mix of ally support and enemy debuffing abilities. However, this ally support is focused almost exclusively on utility. Meanwhile, the set’s bread and butter debuffs are single target. Their low recharge and decent durations seem like they would be useful in a protracted battle, but this advantage is lost because these debuffs do not stack.
    These changes focus on improving almost all powers. Its enemy affecting powers become much more universally useful, and its ally support powers become respectable, though still not amazing.


    Alkaloid: The small toxic resistance buff isn’t enough to justify the healing strength being reduced, especially when it’s unstackable and unenhanceable (and given that toxic damage is rarely encountered). Either some kind of status protection should be added, the heal strength increased, or some debuff resistances (slow and regeneration come to mind as fitting) and a slightly increased toxic resist (scale 3 instead of the 2 it is now, to make up for being unenhancable).

    Envenom should be made an AoE power to match the AoE debuffs provided by other sets, which are both stronger in magnitude and, for some of them, stackable. Upping the recharge to somewhere between 30 and 60 seconds would be fine for this.

    Weaken: See Envenom.

    Neurotoxic Breath: This power is basically a copy of Shiver from Ice Control and Ice Manipulation, except that Shiver can stack on itself (and the Ice Manipulation one has an amazing 12 second recharge for the same potency). Given its recharge value, the fact that it exists inside a debuffing set, and the fact that it is one of the few AoE debuffs this set has, it needs to (a) be able to stack on itself, and (b) gain an extra effect – I suggest -100% Regeneration for 20 seconds (this set is surprisingly lacking in -Regeneration powers, for a Poison set).

    Antidote: Apply the AoE treatment to its cold, toxic, and slow resistance.

    Paralytic Poison's recharge should be reduced to 10 seconds (like Ice Arrow and Petrifying Gaze) or have some extra debuffs attached, such as scale -0.5 regeneration and recovery. It deals no damage and should not be penalized so harshly.

    Poison Trap should be what it is supposed to be, a complete copy of Trap's Poison Gas Trap. It has the same duration and recharge but no effects at all. Change the numbers and effects to match and you're done.

    Noxious Gas has a recharge of 300 seconds with the debuffs lasting 20 seconds (I am currently uncertain, but it looks like the power lasts for 45 seconds, for a theoretical max duration of 65 seconds). The power itself is basically a weak combination of Enervating Field and Radiation Infection all rolled into one (for some reason, the Hold chance is 0%, so it won’t ever happen). Given the rest of the set's mediocre debuffing and absolutely terrible AoE debuffs, this should have the recharge reduced significantly - somewhere from 120 to 180 seconds. Additionally, the power should be usable on allies as well as henchmen. This increases the power’s flexibility and simplifies the process of porting it to other powersets, if that ever becomes an issue.

    Pain Domination

    Solid Set

    Pain Domination has a few relatively weak powers that can be buffed to make them more viable without significantly impacting the set’s performance.


    World of Pain’s recharge is far too high, given that its effects are already set to be unable to stack. Up the endurance cost slightly and reduce the recharge to 180 seconds (or, conversely, increasing the duration to 120 seconds).

    Anguishing Cry, like World of Pain, is far too weak compared to powers of similar debuffing potential (it cannot stack, and even with 3 Recharge SOs has only 50% up time). Increase the duration to 45 seconds and reduce the recharge to 90 seconds.

    Thermal Radiation

    Solid Set

    Thermal’s combination of resistance and healing make it, at the very least, a serviceable set. However, its enemy affecting powers are extremely weak.
    The goal of these changes is to apply the same changes to its resistance shields as was applied to sonic resonance, and to increase the usefulness of its enemy debuffs, allowing them to stand aside the set’s healing and buffing without overshadowing it.


    The resist shields in this set have similar issues as Sonic, so read above and apply them here. In addition, Thermal has both a Psi hole and a Toxic hole.

    Cauterize is a good place to patch the Toxic hole by applying some toxic resistance, similar to Poison’s heal.

    Plasma Shield is a good place to put in debuff resistance to endurance drains.

    Power of the Phoenix’s recharge and endurance costs are incredibly high for a power that can only be used situationally. Other rez powers have 180 second recharge (except for Empathy, which is 90), and that includes Howling Twilight, which has an AoE stun, -Regen, and mass rez. Power. Given that Soul Transfer and Rise of the Phoenix, the two analogous armor versions of this power, have the same recharge time, there is no reason for Howling Twilight and Power of the Phoenix to be different. Power of the Phoenix’s recharge should drop to 180 seconds, and endurance cost to 26.

    Thaw would be a good alternate place to apply psionic or toxic resist.

    Heat Exhaustion’s recharge is far too high given that it is a single target power that requires an accuracy check in a powerset that has up until this point no offensive powers at all. Lingering Radiation, a similar -Regen power, is an AoE with the same uptime of 1/3rd. Either change this power to an AoE, or decrease its recharge to 90 seconds (and theoretically up its duration to 60 seconds).

    Melt Armor is completely outclassed by Freezing Rain, Sleet, Enervating Field, and other powers with similar effects (-Resist and -Defense). Up the duration to 60 seconds, lower the recharge to 120 seconds, and increase the magnitude of the -Resist and -Defense..

    Dark Miasma

    Solid Set

    Dark Miasma is in no need of buffs, but two of its powers stand out as being almost completely useless. Some minor buffs could make these powers viable without impacting the set’s overall power.


    Petrifying Gaze’s recharge should be reduced like similar powers mentioned above.

    Black Hole should have the -Regen, -Recovery, and -Recharge effects mentioned above for similar powers. The power’s immobilize should ONLY affect those that are phased. See Detention Field above for a possible technical method for this.

    Storm Summoning

    Solid Set

    Storm Summoning doesn’t need buffing, but thunderclap is useless outside of specific set combinations, and is inferior to copies of it found in other sets. A buff to thunderclap would not affect the set’s potential performance, since it cannot be used at the same time as hurricane. It would only increase the set’s options.


    Thunderclap needs to be buffed to be brought into line with similar powers in other sets (Lightning Clap, Fault). Lower the recharge to 30, give it a 50% chance for an additional mag 1, and a chance for knockup.

    Empathy

    Solid Set

    It has a few powers that are clearly inferior to similar powers. The goal of these changes is to bring these powers up to par without significantly affecting the set’s power level.


    Resurrect: In the past, the benefit of this power over other rez powers was that it healed the target to full and gave them full endurance, while the others needed enhancing to accomplish it. Over time, they all got buffed to recover the target to full, leaving this power comparatively weaker. Suggestion: Lower the recharge to 120 or 90 seconds. Alternatively, provide the target with some kind of buff, probably +Regeneration and +Recovery, to match the theme of the set.

    Clear Mind: Except in the edge case of dealing with Ghost Widow on the STF, this power has no use whatsoever for teammates who already have mez protection, except to fill in certain gaps if their mez protection is not complete and you happen to be fighting an enemy group that uses those rare Confuse and Fear mezzes. As such, I suggest adding some kind of additional buff on top of the mez effect (similar to Thaw, Antidote, and Clarity - if the above suggestion about it was taken). Given that the set does very little to prevent your allies from being hit (Fortitude is the only defense power, and it can only be maintained on a limited number of allies at once), some forms of debuff resistance would be a good fit.

    Recovery Aura: The recharge on this power is punishingly high (the same 500 seconds as Regeneration Aura, a much more powerful power), considering that Kinetics can give the entire group infinite endurance all the time with minimal effort, and Heat Loss from Cold Domination can provide capped endurance for 90 seconds out of 360 seconds without recharge. The recharge on this power should at least be brought down to 360 seconds, putting it on par with Heat Loss, and possibly to 240 seconds, given that it provides no debuffing like Heat Loss does.
  2. It does, in fact, have a -recharge component. The power's short and long description don't mention it, though.
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
    (BTW - according to Positron, video footage exists of him singing Def Leppard karaoke at a PS party...)
    Issue 20 closed beta may be over, but I am still under an NDA in regards to a specific incident that may or may not have any relevance to the quoted comment.
  4. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shadey_NA View Post
    Is there a Doctoral Thesis in all this number crunching? If so, can I get a copy? I'll give you 14 infl...
    I'm going back to school in the fall. I'll get back to you in 6-8 years.
  5. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum View Post
    Disagree completely. Your proposed policy would be more flawed than the one they're using.

    If you spend the time to make "shoulder kittens" universal for all models- something that has VERY little widespread appeal- rather than an asset that DOES have wider appeal to the male side, you're wasting resources. (I wouldn't mind a shoulder kitten, but that's another story)

    What I do wish the devs WOULD address is possibly consider making more 'general use" versions of some of the more interesting pieces coming out. Things like the "magical bolero" are nice, but very specific in their style because of the level of detail.
    I never said that all costume options should be available to both genders. You and I actually have about the same viewpoint it sounds like.
  6. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
    plainly said, more costume pieces mean more time in development which means less packs less frequently. Even if it's the same costume piece, it's and entirely "new" piece if we port it to different body types
    Fine with me if it means fewer costume pieces overall. This policy of giving each gender separate costume pieces in each pack is flawed, in my opinion. Not having asexual costume pieces inevitably leads to sexism and oversexualization in the costume options. Males get the respectable/cool looking outfits, and then women get all of the skimpy outfits because we can't double up on respectable/cool costumes in a pack.

    EDIT: I realize that fewer packs means a drop in sales figures. If more options in a pack is not an option, then I am firmly placing my vote on the side of "more parity in the costume options, even if it means less variety overall".
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Psylenz View Post
    Brain not awake yet and I am still absorbing the data numbers. I was under the impression that the -speed portion of siphon speed was irresistible in the kinetics set; does that not include -recharge?
    I just checked and it's irresistable. I'll update.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
    Freezing Rain ticks 5 times per second and has a 5% chance per tick to knockdown. This should translate to about a 33% chance per second. The knockdown aura has a target cap of 16 enemies but I'm unsure how or if this is actually obeyed. The animation that plays when an enemy falls over is called SWEEP_LOW. I don't know its duration or whether there is a way to obtain it.
    I god, stop. Please stop. I can't do this. If I did this, I'd also need to take into account the damage mitigation of the 'afraid' AI avoidance script. It's too much.
  8. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
    Yes, but the question is how do you do that and how do you find a metric that isn't completely arbitrary.
    If I could find out how often freezing rain's knockback tics, the exact frame at which enemies become susceptible to knockback while they're getting up, and the exact frame at which they become able to queue an attack after getting up, and taking into account that the enemy's powers are recharging while they're getting up, and determine the average damage of a single attack compared to the average all out attacking of a mob, I could theoretically determine just what % of damage a knockdown patch will mitigate.

    But if I do that, I have to determine hurricane's penalty/bonus to group damage. In order to do that, I'll need to know the % chance for mobs to be bunched up by hurricane vs. the % chance for them to be scattered, then somehow determine just how many more/less targets can be hit on average by an AoE when the targets are grouped together/scattered and for that I'll need the % chance that X number of enemies will be hit by nightfall, piercing ammo, and energy torrent under a given average mob formation, and oh god I just spent an entire day proving that hurricane lowers group damage and I'm forever branded a pariah among the storm summoning community.

    Basically, I had to draw the line somewhere, and I decided that resistance, regeneration, to-hit, damage, and recharge were the things to use since they were easy to quantify. I leave it up to the reader to take those values and give them context within the whole set, and also to remember that the effectiveness of damage and recharge debuffs will vary depending on what they're used on.

    Also, I'll edit the first post to include that 95 hp/s number.
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
    Also, you might want to include a caveat that you are assuming Sleet and Freezing Rain aren't bugged, i'd just call it "assumed ideal conditions".
    I have that listed waaay way up there in the first paragraph. I can't predict how often the bug will occur, especially since it's so hard to reproduce, so I had to ignore it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
    I would probably go into more detail on comparing -regen and -resistance, although exactly how to do that would be challenging. Comparing two sets would be easy, so the best thing to do is probably pick one to be a benchmark and then compare the others.
    For example:
    We can say lvl 50 AVs regenerate HP at 95/sec. So for rad that's effectively 35 hp/sec from their -regen.
    If you can find the regen rate of AVs, I can include that in there. Exactly how useful regen is will depend on things like level and such, and I know reichsman's regeneration rate is lower than standard.

    Also, my data there didn't take into account an important fact. 1000% regeneration debuffing isn't twice as effective as 500% regeneration debuffing. Since 500% gets reduced to 75%, the 1000% debuff is only 33% more effective, since it hits the regen debuff cap of 100%.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
    I suppose in general I'm interested in a "what does this mean" summary.
    Yeah, I figured this would come up. My goal was to focus on facts and keep my opinions to a minimum in the original post. I mostly wanted to put the data out there so people can make decisions about what they consider to be balance issues, and so they can see what areas sets specialize in.

    My personal opinion is that this boils down to poison and trick arrow being very underpowered, which shouldn't surprise anyone. Trick arrow comes off as average to mediocre in all of the four categories I used, and unlike every other set here, it doesn't have anything EXCEPT debuffs. This also highlights that the big reasons for this are, firstly, the low numbers of their powers, and secondly, the inability for certain powers to stack.

    Those are the big balance issues, but there are a few smaller ones such as the fact that cold domination makes its mark among the top tier debuff sets, while also having some serious buffs. In light of this fact, the weakness of the resistance debuffs in thermal and pain seems unnecessary.

    Honestly, the only thing that this exercise taught me that I didn't know before is that poison isn't a good single target debuffing set like I thought it was.
  10. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Garent View Post
    Hmm, is this a challenge? I think I will do this.
    Took me five hours. There went my day.
  11. The goal of this post is to compare the various debuff sets. More specifically, any set that contains a debuff power is mentioned here. Only the values of resistance, damage, recharge, and regeneration are considered. That is because these are the easiest to quantify. Things like knockback, controls, and endurance drain are not considered because their effectiveness varies wildly based on the enemy you are fighting. Pain domination, poison, and thermal are included here and they have been given estimated values based on reverse engineering. However, because many buff/debuff set numbers are completely made up (just look at mastermind dark miasma and compare it to the defender version) the numbers I use here are estimations, and there is a very, very high chance that these sets would have different numbers than the ones I have here if they are ever ported to defenders. Also, the freezing rain/sleet bug is ignored in this. I'll start off by posting my raw data, all of which I got from mids.

    If there are any errors in what I have here, please tell me. In order to reduce math overload and TL;DRing, important parts are in yellow.


    Mastermind to defender modifiers-
    resistance +33%
    recharge +25%
    to-hit +66%
    damage +33%
    regeneration +0%

    --Cold Domination--
    Infrigidate: 15s -37.5% fire damage, -87.5% recharge for 20s (does not stack)
    Snow Storm: -62.5% recharge
    Benumb: 120s -62.5% damage, -500% regeneration, -effects for 30s (does not stack)
    Sleet: 60s -30% resistance, -40% recharge (rain lasts 15s, debuff lasts 30s)
    Heat Loss: 360s -30% resistance, -300% recharge for 30s (does not stack, max targets 10)

    --Dark Miasma--
    Twilight Grasp: 8s -6.25% tohit, -12.5% damage, -50% regeneration for 20s
    Tar Patch: 90s -30% resistance for 45s
    Darkest Night: -18.8% tohit, -37.5% damage
    Howling Twilight: 180s -62.5% recharge, -500% regeneration for 30s
    Fearsome Stare: 40s -18.8% tohit for 20s
    -Dark Servant-
    Chill of the Night: -30% tohit
    Darkest Night: -30% damage, -15% tohit
    Twilight Grasp: 10s -5% tohit, -10% damage, -50% regeneration for 20s
    Tenebrous Tentacles: 15s -5% tohit for 8s

    --Kinetics--
    Transfusion: 8s -50% regeneration for 20s
    Siphon Power: 20s -25% damage for 30s
    Siphon Speed: 60s -20% recharge for 60s (unresistable)
    Fulcrum Shift: 60s -25% damage for 30s (max 10 targets)

    --Pain Domination (estimated)--
    Anguishing Cry: 120s -30% resistance for 30s (does not stack)

    --Poison (estimated)--
    Envenom: 12s -30% resistance, -50% regeneration for 30s (-res does not stack, -regen does)
    Weaken: 16s -30% damage, -18.8% tohit, -effects for 30s (does not stack)
    Neurotoxic Breath: 30s -81.25% recharge for 20s (does not stack)
    Noxious Gas: 300s -20% damage, -30% resistance, -12.5% tohit for 20s (max targets 10, would be very different for defenders)

    --Radiation Emission--
    Radiation Infection: -31.3% tohit
    Enervating Field: -30% resistance, -25% damage
    Lingering Radiation: 90s -500% regeneration, -75% recharge for 30s
    Fallout: 300s -50% resistance, -30% tohit, -30% damage for 30s
    EM Pulse: 300s -1000% regeneration for 15s

    --Sonic Resonance--
    Sonic Siphon: 16s -30% resistance for 30s
    Disruption Field: -30% resistance
    Liquefy: 300s -35.7% tohit, -28.5% recharge for 30s

    --Storm Summoning--
    Snow Storm: -62.5% recharge
    Freezing Rain: 60s -35% resistance, -50% recharge (rain lasts 15s, debuff lasts 30s)
    Hurricane: -37.5% tohit

    --Thermal Radiation (estimated)--
    Heat Exhaustion: 120s -50% damage, -500% regeneration for 40s (damage does not stack, regeneration does)
    Melt Armor: 150s -30% resistance for 40s (does not stack)

    --Traps--
    Web Grenade: 4s -62.5% recharge for 15s (does not stack)
    Acid Mortar: 90s -26.6% resistance (mortar lasts 60s, debuff lasts 20s) (8ft radius, 16 targets)
    Poison Trap: 90s -1000% regeneration, -30% recharge for 30s
    Seeker Drones: 90s -6.65% tohit, -26.6% damage for 40s (debuffs applied twice, max targets 10)

    --Trick Arrow--
    Entangling Arrow: 4s -12.5% recharge for 15s (does not stack)
    Flash Arrow: 15s -6.25% tohit for 60s (does not stack, unresistable)
    Glue Arrow: 60s -20% recharge for 30s
    Ice Arrow: 18s -12.5% recharge for 10s
    Poison Gas Arrow: 45s -31.3% damage for 20s
    Acid Arrow: 20s -20% resistance for 20s (does not stack)
    Disruption Arrow: 60s -20% resistance for 30s (max targets 10)
    EMP Arrow: 300s -1000% regeneration for 15s

    --------------------------------


    Defensive comparison against 16 targets with 100% recharge, 56% tohit, and no stacking. Powers with over 90s recharges are ignored. Single target debuffs are ignored. This is meant to simulate a team where the defender is using their debuffs once at the beginning of each fight and doesn't use the powers again when they recharge, so they can be used at the beginning of the next fight. Keep in mind that all enemies resist damage debuffs based on their damage resistance, and lieutenants and bosses have a small amount of tohit debuff resistance.


    Cold Domination: snow storm+sleet= 102.5% recharge
    Dark Miasma: darkest night+fearsome stare= 58.656% tohit, 37.5% damage
    Dark Miasma with Servant: +Chill of the night: 105.456% tohit, 37.5% damage
    Kinetics: fulcrum shift*10/16 = 15.625% damage
    Poison: neurotoxic breath = 81.25% recharge
    Radiation Emission: radiation infection+enervating field+lingering radiation = 25% damage, 48.828% tohit, -75% recharge
    Storm Summoning: snow storm+freezing rain+hurricane = 112.5% recharge, 58.5% tohit
    Traps: poison trap+(seeker drones*10/16) = 30% recharge, 33.25% damage, 20.75% tohit
    Trick Arrow: flash arrow+glue arrow+poison gas arrow= 9.75% tohit, 20% recharge, -31.3% damage


    Conclusions: It's no surprise that dark miasma stands out as the most powerful defensive debuffing set. It's pretty common knowledge at this point. Radiation, storm (assuming you can use hurricane well), and traps are close behind. Poison, cold, and trick arrow are a tier below those. Unsurprisingly, kinetics is dead last, though it's still better than all the sets that aren't on this list at all.


    ------------


    Defensive comparison against 1 AV with 100% recharge, 56% tohit. Stacking is used, and animation times are ignored for simplicity. Powers requiring a dead body are ignored. This is meant to simulate an extended fight against a single AV in which the defender uses every debuff as soon as it's available. Level 50 AVs have 85% debuff resistance, which applies to recharge and tohit debuffs.

    Cold Domination: infrigidate+snow storm+(benumb*0.5)+(sleet*1.5)+(heat loss*0.25)= 37.5 fire damage, 87.5 recharge, 62.5 recharge, 31.25 damage, 60 recharge, 75 recharge = 31.25% most damage, 68.75% fire damage, 42.75% recharge
    Dark Miasma: (twilight grasp*2)+darkest night+(howling twilight/3)+fearsome stare= 12.5% tohit, 25% damage, 29.328% tohit, 37.5% damage, 20.8% recharge, 29.328% tohit = 10.6734% tohit, 62.5% damage, 3.12% recharge
    Dark Miasma with dark servant= +chill of the night = 17.69% tohit, 62.5% damage, 3.12% recharge
    Kinetics: (siphon power*3)+(siphon speed*2(noAVres))+fulcrum shift = 100% damage, 40% recharge
    Poison: weaken+neurotoxic breath = 30% damage, 4.4% tohit, 12.2% recharge
    Radiation: radiation infection+enervating field+(lingering radiation*2/3) = 7.32% tohit, -25% damage, 11.25% recharge
    Sonic Resonance: Liquefy/5 = 1.67% tohit
    Storm Summoning: snow storm+(freezing rain*1.5)+hurricane = 20.625% recharge, 8.775% tohit
    Thermal Radiation: (heat exhaustion*2/3) = 33.33% damage
    Traps: web grenade+(poison trap/2)+seeker drones = 11.625% recharge, 3.11% tohit, 53.2% damage
    Trick Arrow: entangling arrow+flash arrow(noAVres)+glue arrow+ice arrow+poison gas arrow = 1.875% recharge + 9.75 tohit + 3% recharge + 1.875% recharge + 31.3% damage = 9.75% tohit, 6.75% recharge, 31.3% damage


    Conclusions: Against most AVs, the sets with powerful damage debuffs will be significantly better defensively than other sets. This would be cold, dark miasma, kinetics, and traps. Trick arrow, radiation, and thermal have a fair amount of it too. However, against one of the AVs that has about 90-95% resistance to the damage type that they do, these sets will be much less effective. The big underperformer here is poison, despite this being the situation in which it SHOULD be doing best since it's a single target focused set. All of its abilities being unstackable really hurts it. Honorable mentions go to cold domination for having so many recharge debuffs that it can make a noticable impact on an AV, and ditto to dark miasma with its tohit debuffs.


    ------------


    Offensive comparison against 16 targets with 100% recharge and no stacking. Powers with over 90s recharges are ignored. Single target debuffs are ignored. Regeneration debuffs are ignored. This is meant to simulate a team where the defender uses their debuffs once at the beginning of each fight and doesn't use the powers again when they recharge, so they can be used at the beginning of the next fight.

    Cold Domination: sleet = 30% resistance
    Dark Miasma: tar patch = 30% resistance
    Radiation Emission: enervating field = 30% resistance
    Sonic Resonance: disruption field = 30% resistance
    Storm Summoning: freezing rain = 35% resistance
    Traps: acid mortar = 26.6% resistance (each of its shots has a small 8 foot radius, but it shoots multiple times and each shot can hit a maximum of 16 targets)
    Trick arrow: acid arrow + (disruption arrow*10/16) = 32.5% resistance


    Conclusion: Sets are very standardized when it comes to AoE -res, except for thermal and pain domination, whose resistance debuffs are on long recharge timers.


    ----------------------



    Offensive comparison against 1 AV with 100% recharge. Stacking is used, and animation times are ignored for simplicity. Powers requiring a dead body are ignored. EM Pulse type powers are ignored. This is meant to simulate an extended fight against a single AV in which the defender uses every debuff as soon as it's available. Level 50 AVs have 85% debuff resistance, which applies to regeneration debuffs. A standard level 50 AV has a regeneration rate of about 95 hp/second. This means that completely debuffing their regeneration rate is equivalent to 95 dps. Keep in mind that higher level AVs regenerate more than this, and some of them (such as reichsman) have a different regeneration rate than normal.

    Cold Domination: (benumb*0.5)+(sleet*1.5)+(heat loss*0.25) = 37.5% regeneration, 52.5% resistance
    Dark Miasma: tar patch+(twilight grasp*2)+(howling twilight/3) = 30% resistance, 40% regeneration
    Kinetics: transfusion*2 = 15% regeneration
    Pain Domination: anguishing cry/2 = 15% resistance
    Poison: envenom*5 = 30% resistance, 37.5% regeneration
    Radiation Emission: enervating field+(lingering radiation/2) = 30% resistance, 37.5% regeneration
    Sonic Resonance: sonic siphon + disruption field = 60% resistance
    Storm Summoning: freezing rain*1.5 = 52.5% resistance
    Thermal Radiation: (heat exhaustion*2/3)+(melt armor*8/15) = 16% resistance, 50% regeneration
    Traps: (Acid Mortar*16/9)+(poison trap/2)= 47.29% resistance, 75% regeneration
    Trick Arrow: acid arrow+disruption arrow = 40% resistance


    Conclusion: The data here demonstrates why traps is a powerful set for soloing AVs and GMs. Poison trap is twice as powerful as most regeneration debuffs. The sets with stackable debuffs like cold and storm begin to pull ahead of toggle debuff sets like radiation. Higher recharge builds will make this gap even larger.
  12. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Not_BC View Post
    No one has ever publicly done an analysis of intra-set (de)buff performance (we've had some e-peen waggers say they have, but they've never, as it were, shown us the money)
    Hmm, is this a challenge? I think I will do this.
  13. Is it bad that, when I saw this thread title, I immediately knew it was a storm/energy build with things slotted for knockback?
  14. Just tested and brought someone into Talos. Seems to be fine.
  15. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Negate View Post
    Ok Empathy users...what powers do you think deserve a full Team buff? Just Clear mind?
    In my opinion, just clear mind.
  16. From a playstyle perspective, radiation blast will be more convenient. Kinetics' fulcrum shift works best if you're in the middle of enemies, while cone attacks work best if you're at a distance from the enemies. Dark blast's area attacks are entirely cones (not counting blackstar).

    Kin/Dark isn't gimped or anything like that. I'm just speaking about convenience and ease of play.
  17. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Garent View Post
    Is my pedigree good enough for my opinion to be valid to you?
    No it isnt
    Alright. So no matter what the content of my argument is, it's irrelevant to you because I don't have a 50 of exactly the right powerset. A friend of mine likes to call this the "you don't have to drink hemlock to know it'll kill you fallacy". One of many subsets of the Ad Hominem. If my position is incorrect, you have to prove that it's incorrect.

    You have no real position though. The content of your posts is mostly complaints and demands for appeasement. The closest you've come to a suggestion for an actual change is a reduction in casting times on empathy. You previously said you wanted some kind of buff to pain, poison, and empathy; but in recent posts you've been focusing entirely on empathy. Your posts have shifted from a call for parity to a call for the buffing of a specific powerset.
  18. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
    Somebody else who actually plays all the powersets should be talking to me about what would and wouldn't benefit from the change.
    Elitist much?

    Cold domination to 50, kinetics to 50, pain domination to 49, sonic resonance to 47, three storm summoners to 50, and empathy and force fields to some levels that I can't remember.

    Is my pedigree good enough for my opinion to be valid to you?
  19. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    That's something everyone believes, but such balance is impossible if every buff or nerf equally effects all powersets instead of targeting specific ones that need it.
  20. Redside was fun. Freitag turned into the Jade spider and helped us fight the Praetors.
  21. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
    I dislike this change as it leaves Pain, Poison and Empathy out without a change of equal value.
    Ah, I see. You're one of those people that thinks when a set gets buffed, all other sets need an equivalent buff.

    You are wrong.
  22. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Silas View Post
    This thread got dumb in a hurry. Never change, Defender forums.
    You expected different? When I made this thread, I said to myself "Let's count how many posts it takes for someone to call this a nerf." And inevitably, someone came in and said it's a nerf to force fields because it's more of a buff to other sets than it is to them.

    My attempt to get this conversation back on track:

    1. These are being turned into TARGETED area of effect powers, not POINT BLANK area of effect powers.
    2. If you think force field needs a buff, complaining about kinetics being able to apply its status protection click power as a targeted AoE is not the way to do it.
  23. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
    If other powersets get a buff of equal value then I got less to gripe about, I dislike getting on one toon I fancy having fun with one day and having someone ask me to get that other toon I got for easy mode.
    You're upset because you think people will be asking you to play your shield characters more often?

    Before this change - possible to keep 7 people shielded at all times
    After this change - possible to keep 7 people shielded at all times

    It's a convenience change and nothing more. It will just take less time and endurance to do what you already did.
  24. Garent

    Buffers rejoice!

    http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/gam...scend_ove.html

    Coming in Issue 20.5



    Group Area Buffs: To make buffing easier for Teams and Leagues, these buff powers now affect all the eligible characters within a 30-foot-radius around the targeted character. (Previously, you had to target and buff each individual character to use these powers.)

    Cold Domination (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Ice Shield and Glacial Shield
    Force Field (Defenders, Controllers, Masterminds): Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield
    Kinetics (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Increase Density and Speed Boost
    Sonic Resonance (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Sonic Barrier and Sonic Haven
    Thermal Radiation (Controllers, Corruptors, Masterminds): Fire Shield and Plasma Shield