Gangrel_EU

Oh 100% agreed. And this is an additional problem that people have to realise. Paragon Studios making a profit of 800K/quarter is nice... especially seeing as they have none of the support costs to worry about (because the support staff are employed by NCsoft and *not* Paragon Studios).

Once you start to factor *those* costs in... that $800K/quarter starts to dwindle quite rapidly.

The problem that i have with the $800K profit per month figure is that it is *almost* exactly the same as the average monthly revenue (which ISNT profit based, just money coming in) figure that you can get from the NCsoft financials (Available here).

On top of that, if that figure that is given *IS* the "profit" of the game, then that means that *multiple* people have been misreading and misusing it on the forum.

Now THAT I do find unlikely (especially seeing as this information has been used to back up the game in the past).

Now saying that... $800K profit per QUARTER I can believe. And it *does* fit roughly into what we (as outsiders) can work out (This being the difference between Revenue per year at *roughly* $10/year and the *rough* annual wage and benefit cost (lets call it $7million/year)

That *does* suggest a profit margin of roughly $800K per quarter... which is roughly $266K/month profit. A far cry from the $800K/month that Mercedes (and quite possibly other people) have posted up.

No, but unfortunately spreading information which cannot be verified (especially when there IS evidence to the contrary) doesn't raise their standing in my mind. And this doesn't go for just Mercedes, but for everyone else out there. An example is the rumor that i have read that this was the 1st MMO closure that NCsoft have *voluntarily* given subscriptions for, instead of just giving you gametime for their other MMO's).

I do appreciate what she (and the rest of the Titan crew) are trying to do to save the game, but people who end up saying stuff that they cannot (or will not) back up with the exception of a "just trust me" statement (or words to those effects) just makes me tend to ignore them.

I am pretty certain that *most* if not all of the "naysayers" will change their tone if they are provably shown evidence to the contrary.

Of course, that is pretty much also my point of view with organised religion as well... I am willing to wait for evidence to appear to the contrary, but I never just accept something at face value. I will do research to see what there is.

Side note: I honestly doubt that Melissa would be able to post the internal finances of Paragon Studio's without approval from Ncsoft.

Ok, lets get this started: Who is Larry? Apparently it is someone who did some fact checking and money tracing, and yet in the post, there is *no* link to sources for how much money Paragon Studio's was pulling in as profit. If his source of the information was from the NCsoft factsheets/financial releases, then he has made a mistake there.

They do not mention *anywhere* in there, how much profit City of Heroes has made. They do however mention how much revenue it brought in.

Pure conjecture at this point. For all we know from what was said by WarWitch, "we were doing well" could well mean "we have managed to slow down the decline in revenue" *shrugs* Just an alternative point of view here

The main problem i have with Mercedes Lackey and her posting is that she takes some things that she has been told, and *doesn't* get it correct when she relays it out.

Here is something that she said as well:

*bolded the important part*

Really? There was an initial announcement that stated that the forums would be closing down on September 1? Since when? Does this mean that there was an announcement that went out *before* the one before the one that was posted on the forums or the main website that was quickly re-edited/squashed?

Ok, to be fair, I did call her up on this one... unfortunately what VV/ML said later has yet to convince me that there was an announcement to the players that stated this. I *can* however believe that the initial announcement TO THE STUDIO stated something along those lines, but the studio rather quickly pointed out a few things, and got things sorted for the better.

However, I do feel that ML/VV is rather deliberately misstating what they are being told (quite possibly in confidence) to make NCsoft look far worse than they actually are.

Side note: I also hate having to correct people when they state that City of Heroes is the 1st MMO closure that they have voluntarily given refunds for... especially considering that former subscribers of Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa and Dungeon Runners were given refunds on their subscription *on top of* accounts and game time for other NCsoft titles (City of Heroes being one title that was given to former players of the shut down games)

Side note 2: And how did City of Heroes manage to have 100,000 subscribers and *only* have a revenue of 800K/month? I have seen people posting up on comment threads that CoX has a subscriber base of 100K players. I can see it being 100K of *regular* unique account logins... but that is something completely different.

Agreed, although I have to admit I prefer the Norn over the human females because they carry just that little bit more weight on them that I like on my real world women...

*blinks* *stutters*

I-I-I am actually agreeing with FFM here

*blinks*

Ok, that is it, the end of world is upon us. Lay your weapons and and throw yourselves to the floor. This is it.

Armageddon, the apocalypse, gehenna!

Oh woe is I, oh woe is I!


*slap slap slap*

"we shall now return you to your regularly scheduled forum bickering in 3 minutes".

It could be argued that the value of the game is already decreasing due to fewer players logging into the game (GF has noticed that the global chat channels that she frequents, the most active one decreased in "regular" users by roughly 90%)

Ahh, that one.. the one which states that the forums *will* go down at some point, but doesn't actually say as to *when* they will go down.

I can see why you were thinking that they would go down before 30th November, but there is nothing in that post to suggest that they *will* go down before November 30th...

I fully expect the forums to last until the final day of the game, when they finally switch everything off at the same time.

Having read all the recent postings of Zwill on the boards, I cannot find this statement anywhere.

How about those who bought points on the 3rd August? Or their "quartely supply" in July?

Sure, they have their reasons for the date that they put in, but there will always be those who bought points and will "miss out".

Unless they refund them from the start date of freedom.

Me, if i had bought points just before the cut off date (or really any time in august/end of july) I would be getting in contact with the billing team to see what can be done.

Plus side, you had the chance of 2 or 3 hits landing all at the same time..

Auto Assault and NetDevil. I believe that NCsoft at least had a price in mind for it, but if it was too high, or NetDevil wouldn't (not *couldn't) pay the price is something I cannot remember.

I can see where the worry came from, because when TR was announced to be closed, it *also* came with the post that i quoted up earlier on.

Unlike the CoX closure, which was very abrupt and devoid of any reimbursement information from NCsoft.

This is why i quoted from the webarchives what was actually given.

No worries. To be fair, I am pretty certain that something similar stands for the US side of the market, *however* in that case, i believe that the "transferal of unused credit to another product" is something that is allowable. I do also believe that you have a right to ask for the credit to be re-issued as a monetary refund.

I think that no matter their reasoning, that NCsoft did the fair thing, even allowing the refunds on points that were bought (upto) a week earlier before the shutdown.

Yes, people can complain about the lack of refunds before that point, but that is going to be something that you can talk to billing and support about. So if you bought your points 2 months ago (or even a month before the announcement) get in touch with those guys to see if they will refund you accordingly.

It won't hurt to try (and as an interesting side note, i actually wonder how much of their revenue *was* from the buying of paragon points, and not from subscriptions... it would give an interesting view on the status of the player base and if those people *stopped* buying points, would the game have been profitiable).

You have to remember that the EULA doesn't trump local laws either. I know that talking as an EU player, that just by shutting the service down, that for any complete months of unused time (ie a subscription) you are entitled to a refund.

Now, if NCsoft had gone bankrupt, then yes, you are at least *mostly* correct. We just then become one of the many people owed money (and to be honest, we would be faaar down the list on those who would be paid back)

Do you mean in terms of a few hours from the announcement with Zwillinger *originally* or that they were cancelled before the announcement yesterday?

Chances are that they were cancelled *around* the same time as Paragon Studio's found out,

From their FAQ concerning the NCsoft account:

Please note:

The information i gave in the 1st part is what you need to do to bring back your NCsoft master account name.

I have bolded and increased the size on the important part.

And strangely enough, crediting everyones master account for use with other NCSoft products would have been *contrary* to what they had done previously.

And according to the response that my GF got from Customer services, on the day of announcement, said nothing about crediting the account for another game.

It did however say to pay attention to the forums and website for more details; and to be honest, I would believe the information from Zwill as and when he gives the information out, than any other information before hand (unless of course it was in an NCsoft mail blast).

*shrugs* But that is me.

I remember using a Trial code on my CoX account when it was unsubbed at one point...

Oh indeed... and I am actually quite surprised in that people haven't been clamoring for more in the reimbursement package, along the lines of what players from Tabula Rasa received.

And unlike common belief, the Tabula Rasa players *did* receive a refund on subscriptions *and* got other stuff as well....

Sure, you might not want to use the codes that were given, but at least they were offered for TR players to use*

To be fair, it is also what they have to legally do.

I think the window for the paragon points could have been larger... by a week at least... maybe even up to the start of August. But no matter which date you set for the refund on points, people will always complain.

At least for the subscription, as it will be prorata on how much you get back, everyone is treated equally (ie i get nothing back, my GF gets 5months(ish) back.)

I am on the flip side... I was going to spend £100 ish on Paragon Points at the player meet, that would have taken me up to T9 in the vet rewards tree...

Plus side: I saved myself a boat load of cash

Well, aint you a lucky one.. they are both listed as being in the game

Mods arent on the boards... as much as they would like to be.