Evil_Legacy

yeah I see the point.

When people have numerous accounts, sometimes it's hard to get an actual guage on the actual number of actual people that play. Some people here have what? 2 up to 4 accounts? And maybe more since the f2p? I guess as close as we could get is registration number.

Really? The revenue couldnt even fund an NCSoft ad campaign? Dang.
So basically not much reason to keep it running?
And about that severance pay prior to the announcement. Do that mean they already made the decision by the time the 2Q report came out? Or was that severance pay for another group of workers that was let go?

Maybe. Then it sounds like we already know the why and sounds like they already told us the why.

"In a realignment of company focus and publishing support, NCsoft has made the decision to close Paragon Studios."

The why seemed to be, according to the first announcement, for realignment of company focus and publishing support and also according to what you said you already know.

What more was there that needed to be explained dealing with why they shutdown the game? Dont think they specifically mentioned labor costs but as you, I do recall seeing that posting at one point in time somewhere too. With those two reasons alone or hell even with the alignment one, there is nothing more that NCSoft needs to explain. They can choose to explain more if they see fit but it is not needed. Dont seem like anything more needs to be explained from NCSoft at this point about the why. It's not like they shutdown the game immediately, more like 90 day notice. Although the workers probably got shocked more than anything but it happens everyday in US companies too. Sometimes the boss calls a morning meeting, say that the company has decided to cut back and a particualr department's service is no longer needed and everyone clear their deask and go home and their last check will be in the mail. While at teh same time the company is building a call center in India to replace those workers it just laid off that day. Sudden for Paragon Studio workers, yes, but nothing unusual in the job market in today's US. No matter of when they made the announcement whether if it was July 31st 2011 or Nov. 1st 2012, it would still be just as sudden, no more no less, than when they made the announcement on Aug 31st. Only difference would have been the amount of days left to play. They gave us about 90. Hey, it could of been 30 or less days. Only way it wouldnt have been sudden if they released some announcement prior that said, that if COX dont bring in more money or players then we will be forced to shut down. Which usually when that announcement happens, the end result is still the same just a bit more drawn out. In this case since it's a company alignment decision, then it is possible that they told us as soon as possible after the decision was made of what would entail in that alignment.

While players never thought about the slipping player population overall, maybe they should have been concerned.

Also came across this post about someone asking about the sudden lack of game cards in his area. Man, hindsight is a **** in that case. But at the time it probably just looked as if many players stopped buying game cards and did so online to buy the time. Even here, about month prior to the announcement it was hard to find game cards for the game but there sure as hell was plenty of WoW cards hanging about.

Have at it.

Some times I wonder. Lets see, they act like are changing something and or have that much sway in NCSoft decision lets see their success thus far. So far, NCSoft did not change their mind about the closing. They did not sell the IP stuff. They are still closing on the 30th and even have a set time. They have basically put them on ignore. Sooooo... I must be missing something. What have been accomplished by them again?

Oh I know they manageed to insult and assign any one who dont agree with them as NCSoft employees, or worse. They probabaly managed to prove that NCSoft shouldnt bother taking them serious and just ingore them until they go away.

And after the fact of Nov. 30th. I havea feeling NCSoft will still ignore them. And what is this about outrage aroudn the world? Most people outside the gamign world never even heard of NCSOft and as Forbin said earlier, it's hard to care about a store, or game in this case, closing down when ya never even heard about it. In about a month or two after 11/30, it will be buisness as usual. NCsoft will still be around, COX will be dead, and some people of that type still will believe they are some PR nightmare to NCSoft. As I said earlier in a post, I think its more like a slight annoyance of a knat at a bbq.

This kind of remind of the matrix movie, part 2 I think. Except the line would be

"I am NCSoft. I created the COX. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably cuckoo. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your delusion may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant. Already I can see the chain reaction: the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you to the simple and obvious truth: COX is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it."

yeah.

I probably got you both beat.

basically

+1

hmmmm. good point there. This probably explain the statement in my prior post.

If they do come out with COH2 and many players come back, this time, enough with the liques, enough with trying to run off new players, espeically in PvP, and enough telling people "if they dont like it, they should leave" without looking at what they are suggesting.

We should make sure we do our part in ensuring the success and growth of the game, or what ever game we join, COH2 or WoW or whatever remake of pong. If we have extra money to put into it and wont miss it, buy something. If we can go f2p versus subscription and the game is liked, buy subscription. If the game is well, tell everyone we come across about it even if there isnt a single piece of advertisement fro mthe company. ANd if there isnt advertisement try to get an reason why just as much as we want the reaso nwhy for this closure. If populations are dropping and someone suggest server merger, dont down it like in the past on the forum over a minor detail such asa character names. look into it and see if it can work. SPeaking of server merger, that may be one of the reason why NCSoft did not explore that option it seems. There was a very loud outcry when it even was suggested and it seemed that the engine made it hard to do anyways. Make a game based engine/coding where it's easy to downsize if needed. What ever method is taken, we cant control what teh company ultimately does but we sure as hell could have should have done more to ensure the game grows and succeed. But hey, some people liked the small community but buisness wise that usually dont bode well in the long run when there are more players leaving (old vets) than new players staying.

In short, if there is a next time, cherish the moments like never before and realize if it dont work and make significant money, there is a chance some CEO is eyeballng the plug. And even if they pul the plug anyways, then walk away knowing there was nothing more that could have been done. Oh and of course look into the company that is running things. If they have a penchant for pulling plugs, expect and play like the plug can be pulled any moment. If they are shady, expect shady practices, if they are MMO killers, expect them to kill MMOs. If none of that matters then play like none of that matters even in the face of the end.

makes sense.

Yet, it dont explain why more larger buisnesses are still hanging around, especially the ones that are constantly on the list of worse customer service and or the list of the most disatisfied customer list.

Then again you only did say think twice and some probably just ultimately go along with the company anyways.

Yeah, if their only market was the American market.
Unfortunately and fortunately, depends on what side of issue/water a person is on, grind games are very popular in Asia, a huge portion of the MMO base.

Pvp may be niche, but look at the large popuation drop that happened here in this game, when the focus of PvP went to the casual gamer. I thought it was a good idea to do but after those changes, PvP here basically went 6 feet under or at least in a brain dead coma. NCsoft probably seen what happened then and even if they reversed all those changes, the players were already gone and probably not coming back.

As people have been saying with super hero MMOs before and after the announcement, it is a niche market. COX peaked at about 150,000 players, and DCUO and CO is said to have peaked at even less numbers, but those two are a little younger and even COX didnt reach it's peak immediately, which is probably a good thing or else that would have mean the population been declining since reception with no chance of going back up. I think since it did take a bit for COX to even reach peak, that means that it might have been able to reach near those numbers again. Yet, the question is how to get it there and that is what NCSoft did not have the answer to and thought this game wouldnt rise in population even with all the updates thrown at it.

I think NCSoft is banking on GW2 more than anything with Lineage and Aion as a follow up. Depending on what exactly those expectations were and are, it may have been less expectations than what was expected with COX. Even if COX outperformed Aion for example, Aion may still be within it's expectation limits while COX not so much, especially given the lack of competition in the COX realm compared to the tons of games that are made and or have been made in the same vein as Aion and Lineage. COX hd basically an open market with not many serious competitors while the competition is stiff for Aion, GW2, Lineage and the likes. They may have figured that if COX performed under their expectations which may have or may not been very high, then what would happen when or if competition did happen? For all we know, NCSoft may have believed that COX was supposed to be the massive million player super hero MMO in the states, since we love our super heroes and casual play. When it did not perform to that level, that shut it off to focus on what they do know and MMO types that they do know. All of this is maybe. Many people have said and have been saying that NCSoft have no idea what the American game market wants so it would be understandable to cut back on that front to focus on what they do know especially in the gaming market that is believed by some to be on the decline.

Plus it didnt seem that F2p had much of a growth spurt as they probably would believe it would have and that may have been the final straw where they just gave up.

IT's the only inside information we have. Other than that we have a bunch of rumors, speculations and etc. And with some of the speculated asking prices, they are low ball, and some "attempts at communication" seem more like they are saying "you better do this or else". So only true information we have is from them. Maybe it is BS maybe not but it's not anymore likely to be BS than all the rumors and speculation stuff from people who wasnt there, heard it third fourth to tenth hand, or just making stuff up to make NCSoft look bad or make the SaveCOH movement look bad. Do anyone have any hard evidence that it is all BS? And not what they chose to believe or not? Now prior to Aug 31st, anything from NCSoft would have been, and actually has been taken as the final word. I remember a while ago just even mentioning that a statement from them seemed fishy and boy did people come out the wood work saying that is must be true because it comes directly from them and how I am stupid for not believing it. I na way they was right what other evidence did I have? It came direct from the company or their representative. Now, what has changed? Because people are angry they wont believe anything they say anymore? And mind you, my comment was well after the Garret thing so that cant be it.
The way it seems it really dont matter what they would have said and if it wasnt something on the lines of "We are changing our minds and the game stays open." there will be people that take anything they say as BS. So naturally, they either goign to attempt to keep talking and adding fuel to the fire no matter what they say unless they give in the the demands or they are just going to be quiet so there can be no words to use against them. As I said, maybe it's all BS but really, that is as close to the truth we might be able to get from the most reputable source. Unless someone has more hard information, not heresay, first line knowledge that this isnt the case.




Of course it dont make sense. All the details have not been released that went into that decision. Plus the way it's going even if they did release that information, many will still call it BS anyways so what would be the point again?
Yea though with the little information we have, it would seem the dev notice was short, and there should have been no point in even working on issue 24. Maybe they was afraid that word would leak out prior to the time they wanted it to leak out or maybe it was one of those decisions made one week prior to the announcement or maybe around Aug 31st or a few days prior was the deadline to see something they want and or the game will be closed or hell it could be that someone was suppose to tell them to stop working on i24 a long time ago but they forgot and since they started working on it, they just allowed them to continue. Or it could have been Aug 30th they met, voted and decision was made Aug 31st announcement was made. Who knows.

Money in corporation world is everywhere. Do you pick up every penny that you come across or even drop? Maybe you do maybe you dont. I dont even bother because it is not worth it to me. I dont even take pennies from change when I purchase stuff. If it's less than 5, then it's guranteed that I'm going to leave it right there on the counter, 5-10 cents probably will go into the charity bin they usually have sitting on the counter but either way pennies are trash food in my eyes. Could it been money I didnt have? Sure. Do I find it not worth the hassle? Sure. Would someone else gather every penny they see? Probably, well actually I know a few. Under a different company the money that COX was raking in probably would have been plenty but for NCSOft it wasnt enough for them and decided to do something else with it. 2 million sound like a lot to many people but in the scale of long term and working with 100s of million or more, 2 million isnt nothing.





That is the thing though. I dont think they are closing the game to save money or because they are hurting for money. But throwing away a proven money maker happens all the time in the buisness world from the car industry, well actually they are notorious for that and do so just because the "platform is old and want to go bolder newer, "better". Sometimes it work sometimes it dont. The way it seems is that they still have some games raking in money, more money than COX ever brought in, worldwide. And if the NCSoft is really going in the direction people say that they are going in on the SaveCOH side, to Asian, grind fest, with "certain" type of target audience and animation, then from the lineup and up coming line up, COX is the odd ball. And then what they said isnt total crap after all because as they said, COX just dont fit in with the line up anymore and looking at the line up and up coming line up, it really dont.

Then why couldnt they just sell off the stuff since it is how they aquired it in the first place? Probably because it was still making money and when they get their money out of it, it may be more than the relatively measely amount it was pulling in and that was on the decline, slowly but surely, and at the same time, cleaned up the line product line.


Now this is very true it seems. In hindsight, maybe we should have invited the NCSOft big wigs to play with us every so often. Yet in the world of buisness, COX is just another product just like a piece of wood, or a drink, or food product, or stero equipment. Maybe they dont know, didnt know, didnt care, about the community that was behind the game. I guess they figured that surviving against WoW was nothing, it's like not not dropping out of school because of the genius in the class and trying to celebrate. It is expected to survive but it probably was aimed to be the WoW of the hero market and raking in 10s to hundred millions since it was the only game like it out there. It may have been how they pitched buying this game to the stockholders and after 8 years it may not have lived up to their hype. For all we know it may of been the stockholders that causes a fuss that said kill COX or else we are leaving in mass numbers to show you. And maybe they didnt budge at first until they seen their pre-release financial reports and suddenly realize that their prices are dropping and decided to kill the game to see if they could stop it. Who knows unless they tell us the reason and they might have already told us the reason and it is considered BS. I dont think the community as a whole is even ready to listen to anything they have to say unless it's what they want to hear which may not be anything near the truth that they think it is. NCSoft could say right now that they feel out pain and are deeply sorry and people will use it to add more fuel to the fire. They could say, well too bad, ad still more fuel to fire. So really. Why should they even say anything at all if either way wont help not a single bit? Plus besides words from them? Is there any other reliable unbiased inside source out there that can clear this stuff up? I dont fully believe it but compared to everything else coming from the angry mob, NCSoft word seems more reliable and makes more sense to me. keyword there, TO ME.




Well while COX was casual compared to WoW, compared to other games it wasnt THAT casual. It had more than it fair share of grind moments, especially after 50. And of course the IO stuff, the market thing, the Incarnate stuff, it started to get away from casual around that point and more towards WoW way of doing things. At the current way it is, COX was not exactly casual but not yet a complete grindfest. Somewhere in the middle, I would call it a casual grind fest. And successful may be relative in their eyes. What was the current population about 50,000 with a peak of 150,000? Yeah could be considered successful because of the good reviews this game got in 2004-2006 time period, it wasnt operating in the red and that could be success to one company. On the other hand if a product or person dont meet the set goals, if profits slip instead of improve, if th decline looks like it will continue then that product is usually taken from the market and or the person is fired. Maybe it had nothing to do with COX but Paragon Studios as a whole.


It is real hard to gimp your character. The missions are real easy to do. You never fail a mission. Even if you are new to video games in general, in time you would learn from your mistakes. Even the end game is not tough at all. It does not take the greatest degree of skill to defeat the incarnate trials. As long as you have some incarnate powers and have them leveled up you can contribute. You never have to be optimal to make a contribution.


In buisness sometimes those are the first ones to go so that may be valid right there. Just like some people never got why Chrysler in the 90s decided to sell Lamborghini again after aquiring it instead of killing off or selling off plymouth which was starting to run in the red and seemed like a pointless brand. Well Plymouth was an American company and Lambo was Italian. Imaging the backlash then. Could be the same deal. Suppose they was an American company and Paragon Studios was Korean. And they posted to us American gamers that "Sorry guys, we have to close you down because we wanted to close the Korean one down but we dont want them to be angry with us." Imagine th backlash from us anyways if not even more. An American company closes American sub. in favor of foriegn interest. Now to NCSoft American is the overseas interest. I dont think many Americans are used to that notion yet. We think nothing and feel nothing for when our domestic companies close overseas branches and no one think, "Dang all those jobs lost. Lets rally and get them to over turn that decision." It's more, "Well what did they expect? They are an overseas part of the equation and of course they will and should cut that off before causing American jobs to be lost." It's just this time, we Americans, small group as it is that lost their jobs, just happen to be on the buisness end of that logic that we didnt mind for decades now, well, as long as it happened to someone else it seems.


Yeah, it was 8 years of fun (or a tad less for me I think. I6 I started).

If we could live forever would we cherish life? Now that we know that any game can end, remember whether it's this game, another game, or COH2 or it's spirit successor of the future, remember to cherish it this time. Get as many people to join as possible, spend as uch as you can,support the game and try to not run new players off just for the sake of keeping the community small and tight knit. If the company dont advertise then do it for them with as much vigor as these people are getting the word about the closing. But dont let this incident put ya off from MMOs as it's just a life cycle, just be aware and never put everything into it. Just only what you are willing to risk and walk away from.




Well now on to the original quote you used. Now that quote was more about the way the article was written and the way it came off as saying "We at SaveCOH have judged NCSoft to be guilty of killing a community and other crimes and atrocities against the people and sentence you to feel the wrath. Before your sentence is carried out, any last words?" then an actual reporter looking genuinely for both sides of the story. It's like an obvious trap and should have been ignored by NCSoft. Many people that support that article know good and well that no matter what NCSOft says, unless its "We are reversing our position and COX will stay open even if it drags this company down and lose everyone a lot of money." then it will be considered BS. They could state the real reason and it probabvly wont be believe. Even the little bit they have given use makes more sense than many theories and speculation out there, and even some of those opposing speculations have given more clarity to what NCSOft said. MAny said that they are killing COX to replace it with grind fest and Asian oriented games and WoW clones. Well, NCSoft said they are killing COX because it no longer fits with the rest of the line and they need to streamline the product line. And from the product line now, COX is the odd ball. But if someone out there have actual hard inside know exatly what's going on facts, then maybe they should speak up if they can. Just because a rumor is what people want to hear doesnt mean it's is true and the truth (not saying NCSOft is telling the truth) is BS because it is not what they want to hear.

Also what is odd to me is that people are saying "NCSoft can be trusted because of the Garrett thing" and other old reasons. Yet, they flocked and from what they state, gave NCSoft alot of their money, alot of their emotions, alot of their time, yet NCSoft was not a company to be trusted? Seems like regardless of the Garrett thing, they trusted them enough to hang around 6-8 years and spendign money on them religiously month ot month or some even up to a year long subs, that is until what happened to Tab. players happened to them. Prior to Aug. 31st, said anythign bad about NCSoft and even brought up the Garrett insidence you was labeled a troll, because then even to the same ones that are downing NCSOft at every post, NCSoft was an upstanding company that could be trusted even with the Garrett incident and them killing off 5 games in the past. No no, no one called them MMO killer. Now that it is in the backyard, all of a sudden they are everything including satan incarnate as if this was their first MMO killed. And of course there is always a "logical" reason to kill off any game but COX. Yea? We are feeling what those other communities felt and turned a blind eye to when NCSoft was giving them the axe. Yet, we expect the entire gaming community to rush to our aid because there is no game that is suppose to be immune to being killed off besides COX. COX was just game, albeit a pretty unique one, yet just a game like anything else. If it didnt perform to expectations, then it was at risk of being killed off, especially the older it got. Under another company would COX still be going on? Possible. But it's also possible that COX would have been killed off alot sooner than now. Depends on the company and their plans for the future of the product. I can name many products (non-games) that have been killed off while less inferior and under performing products continued on. It's buisness. Some returned to the market but many didnt. Some was making alt of money, if they were made by a small company, and some just was killed because it was old. But I dont think in any of the cases, the rights, recipes, trademarks and etc was sold to another company. Has GM sold the rights to Oldmobile yet? I dont see many people pressuring them too or expecting them too besides the pissed off Olds fans that want GM to bring the brand back and kill Buick instead or just sell to a private party so it can be it's own company again like in the early 1900s and a few years prior. Yet, dont seem ike buisness people are questioning why GM is holding on to the IP equivalent of Oldsmobile and not selling. In fact, not even on here. Probably because no one cares, it's not in their lane. And that goes into another thread that is in short, outside this game, who really cares over all that COX is being killed off like any other game?

It's propbably not caring as long as it dont affect COX is a mindset that cost saveCOH movement alot of support outside this game. If they was on the front lines when other games was going out, they would have been remembered as heroes and probably would been a mass migration to the cause because they helped them out in the past and they are returning the favor and they would have been viewed as the motto say. We are heroes, this is what we do. It more seems like it is We are heroes to things that only affect us personally, this is what we do. Now it's just viewed by NCSoft it seems as the usual angry set, up to 21,000 according to the petition and if that is even half of the population then this population was really on the decline and yea it was ripe for shutdown. If te population was really significant then 21,000 and many being double and or triple signed and people not players of this game, then that is one paltry number.

yeah if population is even among those 75 games NA and US that is average of about 20 million registrations a game. How many did this game have? About one million or so total overall? Of course some of those games dont have anywhere near 20 million registered people, meaning a few had more than 20million go through. I would imagine the facebook ones pushing that average number up though and the Korean games.

ALright then. godspeed to you.

I could of sworn I came across you somewhere in that game but might be getting names mixed up. If I'm not mistaken you had a cool looking character there.

damn it beat me to it. But yeah, +1 this.

And As I said, if you hate NCSoft that much, why wont you get off their forum, turn in your account and move on? I'm sure Titan is waiting to take you in to kiss TonyVs butt like the rest of them.

Gah, I said I wasnt going to bother with you. Damn it, boloed again!

I dont have an identity over there thank you very much so there is nothing to ban. Plus just as many here know people of this community in real life, so do I. Doesnt mean we all of a sudden have the same goals and views on the matter.

You can call it what you want to call it. You like saveCOH movement that is fine. That is your view. I dont care for it too much, and the methods are questionable, that is my view. I guess you miss the part where I said I checked them out BEFORE deciding I wanted nothing to do with them? And also the part that this RL person wont stop talking about it. He believes in it, I just so happen dont. Doesnt mean since he want to save COX and I do not really care about that movement, that doesnt mean I'm going to say "Oh well since you think that way, you are my enemy." If that is how you treat your "friends" that is your buisness.

I'm not sure about you but I dont only be friends with people that agree with everything I say and think and try to make an enemy of everyone that doesnt share my view. I cant change your mind of what you probably already decided, but even if you ran that site, there would be nothing of me to kick. If you dont want people telling me about what goes on over therem maybe make it an invite only forum. If I chose to, I dont even have to log on to see what is going on but really I dont and dont care at this point as much as they dont care or even worry about me.

You talk about fangirling, yet, you diss NCSoft while still using their property. If NCSOft disgusts that much, as you told me earlier, why not just leave because no one is holding a gun to your head. Now run and go tell that to your TItan cronies.