Emnity

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See I can't blame people at all for that. This is the one and only comic book themed MMO on the market, and this is a primary reason for play to many. Seeing them want to maintain that theme is no surprise to me at all, even to the point of aggression- I wouldn't support being rabid about it, but when gamers like a game due to theme, seeing others push to move their primary reason for being here off the map can be disconcerting, or at least move one to say "Why not go play a game which features that instead of trying to change the one we enjoy?"

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Yet that didn't lend me any credence when I complained about raids, Inventions, Hamidon enhancements, Super Groups, CoV's corralled zones design, unlockable costume options and so on and so forth. I came to this game, as I've said before, because it was a good game with a wide variety of concepts. It was simple, it was straightforward and it was good. Just about every other thing that's added to it either makes it more complicated or more confusing or ends up bottling up customization which could have benefited everybody and casting it into the sees for some lucky soul to find.

I've gotten over all of that, of course. The thing, though, is that every time I've complained about it, someone's appeared out of the ether to tell me that I should probably shut up and that no-body cares. I've seen the game move so very far from what it was that brought me here to begin with, yet that's never seemed to give me much of any credit. On the flip side, here I am now, championing a feature that I like but seems to be somewhat moving away from "the genre" and suddenly people who came for the genre now have a lot of credit because they were here first.

It's one-sided, that's what bugs me so much. When the game system is being changed to something else and I complain, who cares? When the game's genre is being changed to something else and other people complain, suddenly they have every right to. And that bugs me.

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This is how everyone is treated on forums, Sam. So at least it's a universal "unfairness". Not just you.

"Credence" on a forum, is all too often something you sieze, not something others give you. If you're waiting on it to be given, you'll be waiting a while unless the other posters are all adults.

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Neo wore a trenchcoat, therefore everyone who wears a trenchcoat is Neo, and belongs in the Matrix MMO? Drizzt Do'Urden wielded dual blades, therefore everyone with two blades is a D&D character and should go play DDO?

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Those were cited as examples of character homages, not indications that everyone who wears a costume piece resembling them is a recreation of that character. I'm speaking of actual Drzzzts, Drz5zt, Drzts, Driizs, Dr1zzts, etc. (And my favorite but short-lived hommage I encountered on Triumph: "SuperN3o". His bio alone was worth the roll.)

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I didn't intend to pick on your examples, honestly--I was just picking things people had complained about and offered counterexamples. Clones annoy me.

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My point is that the superhero genre is itself so broad that almost no power or fighting ability is really out of place.

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If one considers the genre as a uniform while, yes, but it is not - as I said before, using this logic one can also say about other MMOs, "This is a fantasy MMO, and therefore no element of fantasy should be out of place."

No one, I don't think, can really say that is a true statement: Elf Quest meets Forgotten Realms meets Cimeria? I think the sound of the fan's vomitting would be the most impressive sound FX of all.

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Yet each of those is a fantasy setting, not the fantasy genre as a whole.

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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?

We're speaking of the exact same thing. I am decrying it progression here for the same reason I would in a fantasy setting. Just because comics are more modern in their setting and can incorporate more elements of tech, fantasy, what have you, without straying from the look and feel of comics in general, doesn't eleminate the very clear boundaries between various elements of comics.

To sum up my position:

Just because it's been found, at some point in time, on a page in a mag that was illustrated, doesn't mean it necessarily fits into the espoused flavor of this game.

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That's not to say that people can't create completely setting-breaking characters with the new powersets. They undoubtedly will, and those of us who love continuity will grit our teeth and try to ignore them--just as we ignored the Legolas clones and any number of others. The fact that people make characters that don't fit the setting doesn't prevent us from using the same tools to make characters that do belong in Paragon City

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I really care more about the consistency of the setting than I do what people do within it.

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I know you see the game as "all inlcusive" of everything in its current form (at least that's what I am getting) but most see Neo and Drizzt as a bit of an intrusion on the classic comic book genre. Hey, Elfquest was a comic book - see what happens if you add its content to this game. It's discarding the genre, and that upsets a lot of people.

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A nitpick: People perceive it (incorrectly, IMHO) as "discarding the genre".

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Actually, you are entirely correct - what it is is including every far-flung element of the genre with disregard to frequency of occurence in the original medium. Though in some cases it is discarding the original western comics approach, it stay true to comics in a general sense.

But this comes back to other genres: Being "all inclusive" in almost any genre would see a mish mash of elements which lacked cohesion and specific theme.

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Neo wore a trenchcoat, therefore everyone who wears a trenchcoat is Neo, and belongs in the Matrix MMO? Drizzt Do'Urden wielded dual blades, therefore everyone with two blades is a D&D character and should go play DDO?

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Those were cited as examples of character homages, not indications that everyone who wears a costume piece resembling them is a recreation of that character. I'm speaking of actual Drzzzts, Drz5zt, Drzts, Driizs, Dr1zzts, etc. (And my favorite but short-lived hommage I encountered on Triumph: "SuperN3o". His bio alone was worth the roll.)

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My point is that the superhero genre is itself so broad that almost no power or fighting ability is really out of place.

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If one considers the genre as a uniform while, yes, but it is not - as I said before, using this logic one can also say about other MMOs, "This is a fantasy MMO, and therefore no element of fantasy should be out of place."

No one, I don't think, can really say that is a true statement: Elf Quest meets Forgotten Realms meets Cimeria? I think the sound of the fan's vomitting would be the most impressive sound FX of all.

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I've been told a few times that what I like is "more WoW and EQ stuff and has no place in the game. Even thought it's already in the game a lot of the time. Catgirls have no place in the game (which puts Mynx/Bobcat in a difficult postion). Medieval knights have no place in the game. Elves have no place in the game. Orcs have no place in the game. Fairies have no place in the game. Witches have no place in the game. Just about every time I or someone else has complained that we can't make this or that costume, or that the pieces for this or that concept are somehow restricted while the pieces for other concepts are not, there's inevitably someone who feels we should shut up or go play WoW. Or the real kicker - go make our own MMO. I've seen that enough to know to expect it.

I may sound like I'm self-victimizing here, but the truth is that these things happen. There are a lot of concepts that some people feel shouldn't be made in this game and that if I want to make them, I should go play WoW/EQ/Whatever. I'm of the opinion that, pieces permitting, any concept and any costume can fit into the game, be it Neo, Wolverine, Legolas or Drizzle. Long as it's not a rule violation, I don't take well to people claiming certain concepts just don't fit.

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See I can't blame people at all for that. This is the one and only comic book themed MMO on the market, and this is a primary reason for play to many. Seeing them want to maintain that theme is no surprise to me at all, even to the point of aggression- I wouldn't support being rabid about it, but when gamers like a game due to theme, seeing others push to move their primary reason for being here off the map can be disconcerting, or at least move one to say "Why not go play a game which features that instead of trying to change the one we enjoy?"

For instance: obviosly WoW caters to a fantasy crowd, and the RPers over there are very fantasy-baded (and some so immersed in the WoW mythos it's scary) - imagine the reaction if a player got on their forums and starting pushing for an element of Post Apocolyptic tech or something.

The first response would be "Why?"
The second would be "But other games already have that."

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The problem with that, though, is that Dual Blades are already made and already into the game. We just don't have access to them yet, but for all that matters, they are in the game. It's a done deal. Asking that the next addition be something more comic-booky I can understand. But from where I'm standing, Dual Blades are already part of the game, so rallying to poo all over them IS rallying to get the game change from what it is. And what it is is what I like

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Actually, they're just on test

I think it's more simply just a complaint that dual blades are a continued sign of a mish-mash direction in the game and is inspiring some voiced objections. Some folks don't like the implications.

I know you see the game as "all inlcusive" of everything in its current form (at least that's what I am getting) but most see Neo and Drizzt as a bit of an intrusion on the classic comic book genre. Hey, Elfquest was a comic book - see what happens if you add its content to this game. It's discarding the genre, and that upsets a lot of people.

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My only problem here is that I can hear what you're saying. Yet when I look at the game itself, a rather formless, free-for-all game is what I see.

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Meh, a perception issue, I guess. I do recall being very much drawn to this game because it was set in a western comic setting, and the 5 new players I've recently brought over from Eve and WoW are finding it to be very specifically "comic book" in style. (One of them complains about it continuously... loves the combat, hates the setting and look in general.)

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This is really where the forums are telling me I can't do something while the game and the settings blatantly contradict this.

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You keep saying that and I cannot identify with it. Even in the most vehement forum disagreements, I've never seen anyone "told" what they can and cannot do - you sound a bit like BI, here. (No offense, BI. )

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There's a reason that was posted in quotes. All that is to say that I like the game as it is and as I see it. Lots of people really seem to like telling me I'm wrong and that the game should be changed into something they like and I probably won't. Hence, "I was here first" because the game is what I like and it seems a little awkward to break it for me and fix it for someone else.

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Well, to open, I simply can't identify with that mindset. Guess that covers that.

Secondly - this thread is about calling for CoX *not* to move away from its comic format to a general and formless "mish mash" - I understand you are saying that "you don't see it as a comic game" - and I don't know what to say to that, it's marketed that way, pretty much the entire playerbase knows it's that way, it uses all the terminology and, at least at this point, still fits firmly within the western comic setting, despite all the manga and sharpety sharp swords. So, at least in the case of "this" thread, no one is aking to move the game away from what you want, they are asking to keep it as it is (or some of them are, at least, such as the OP).

CoX is a "comic book" game, it's why so many of us came here - there was nothing else to serve us. If it doesn't stay a "comic" game then why stay? Such a shame to abandon your primary demographic. (It'll never happen, but hey...)

I am disinterested in a mish mash game in which one can "ignore the non-comic content and play as if one were in comics" - that's why I like immersion, so I don't have to pick and choose pieces of a game in order to enjoy it - that's why I like genres, so I know what flavor I will encounter when I enter into an imaginary surrounding.

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Like individual players, how different sites bill the game does not really hold much weight for me.

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We're talking about web sites sthat published the "going gold" press releases: releases composed by NC. I'd say NC has a pretty good handle on what type of game it is. :P

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I remember a quote from the Statesman quite vividly. It was in response to one of those "It's like that in comic books, so it should be like that in game." I think it was about secret identities.

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Sam, you're working here towards building a case for this game not having been design as a comic book game. It's not going to get off the ground with me. I've no doubt in my mind how it was marketed - the phrasing it still all over every gaming news release website as well as CoX's own, and it easily searchable. It's cool if *you* want to think wasn't designed that way, but I have to say, from an outside perspective, I think you're *really* stretching when your ignoring the developer's own press releases and phraseology.

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That's just the thing, though, I don't think a theme shift is necessary.

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Well that's good, then, if you and I are both of the mind that CoX should remain entrenched where it currently resides in its incarnation, then we're on the same page.

I'd like further updates to contain content true to comic book form, not "General MMO". Design status quo.

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Your mileage may vary. I want a mishmash of different genres and concepts ...

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Say no more. We couldn't be farther apart. As I said, following this train of thought leads to *no* element being exluded from the MMO. While I could get behind a nod to various genres within the comics themselves, just casting off "comics" in favor of "pulp illustrations in general" is a formless miasma. I find it easier to immerse my self in being a super hero when the universe is built around the genre that supports it.

And it seems to me it would be preferable to build a game around your wants for a formless "everything in one" game rather than change the one obviously centered on the comic genre into it, not that I blame you for asking. There is a large difference between illustrated novels, illustrated pulp, and "comics" and the initial design flavor of this game (which was speicifically western comics but moved into manga pretty quickly).

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Personally, I know I bought CoH not because of anything to do with comic books, but exactly because it was a SuperMMO.

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Well, it's still sort of western comics yet, mate. The change isn't complete. Getting there, though. We're still built around "Super Groups", the concept of arch villains with a host of themed goons behind them, all very western comic-MMO, and, even with the plethora of new blades and a lot of nod to manga, it still remains very much more X-Men-esque than anything else. (Thank goodness, to me..)

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It defined a genre all of its own - people with powers in a modern-day setting.

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O.o .. Sam... every single web site that covers it puts it in the "comics" genre. It's still very western comic. The term "super hero" is a western themed comic term. "Archvillain" the same. The concept of an SG base, etc.

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Any idea you have can be implemented. Any genre you draw from will fit in immediately and quite snugly, to boot.

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If that were true we wouldn't have threads questioning the presence of too many blades in the game. Obviously it's an awkward eye sore to some or it wouldn't be noted.

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People keep telling me that this game was meant to be about American comic book super heroes.

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Well, I told you that was the original premise, because that's how it was marketed. And, since we've seen no press releases stating otherwise, I've always assumed that would remain a consistent theme with the inclusion of the other major comic market, manga, as an option.

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I'd like to see that in writing from an official source, because my understanding has always been that this was a starting point and a rough guideline, but never a stringent rule or even much of a concern when it dictated bad decisions.

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I never recall reading anything that said "We're starting as a comic MMO, but moving into pulp illustrated at a later date", I just saw "City of Heroes, the first comic book based MMO, goes gold..." on websites.

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People keep telling me that we don't need to skip genre to have everything in the game because the comic book universe already has everything. I'd be inclined to agree with this, if what fit into the comic book universe were not brought up so often as a reason to NOT do things. I'd appreciate how those seemingly contradictory notions can coincide.

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I'd say some folks equate "comics" to any form of illustrated mag or illustrated pulp series, as is shown by requests for a plethora of comic elements only found in fringe publications, or are pushing for their particular illustrated mag faves becuase this is the only game wherein there is a chance to see it happen at this time, slim as that chance may be.

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People keep telling me that what I, personally, like doesn't matter, because the game is built one way and what I like is quite another and that I should go play something else.

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....?

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All that is to say, I don't see a problem anywhere other than here on the forums, where people keep telling me there is one and that the game as it is and as I like it really shouldn't be like this but should be something else.

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Sounds like game discussion to me... the same on every game forum, really.

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And that somehow keeps putting me in the wrong, even though "I was here first." I'd appreciate an explanation on that one, as well.

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?!?!? "You were here first"? I have no idea where you're going with that. I'm going to promote my game opinions based on my subscription fee and presence in the player base rather than seniority of some sort.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with the direction you are pushing the game into going...

But it leaves the original demographic high and dry (which may well be a good thing, MUO will be coming out eventually and maye they'll cover the comic themed MMO and CoX can move to "amoeba" form, absorbing every style and none) - I imagine the folks who gravitated to the game to play a comic themed MMO might be put out by a mid-life shift in demos.

I don't hold much fears of this happening, mind. I think they're tossing out bits and pieces to keep subscribers happy. But i don't think a shift to a generalized "Mish Mash MMO" is going to get any new customers. Fantasy and future-tech fans already have their bases covered and, as fun as CoX's cute little combat system is, the game doesn't really have the depth to attract a life-changing crowd just based on a theme-shift. It would really have to break some new ground in the design department for that. Doubtful at this late stage.

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I agree. These things are missing and I'd like to see the ability to remake them in here.

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Meh, while I can support other gamer's wants, I've no interest in a formless game that lacks any creative cohesion or identity. I subscribed because it was a western comic themed MMO, and while the introduction of manga elements (the "other big comic market") was inevitable, this casting off the general comic flavor in favor of a "super people" mish-mash is more along the lines of a 1970s "Illustrated Pulp Magazine" than any comic. Which in itself wouldn't be bad save for the enter initial design of the game remains very evidently designed around a different theme.

It would be similiar to trying to incorporate every fantasy theme into one fantasy MMO: elfquest and Pratchett alonside each other. Achievable, but messy and a unnecessary.

And certainly a genre mish-mash isn't necessary. Much could be done with this game without casting off its original flavor. I must point out that every single element of the fantasy genre is also present in comic format: we may as well go ahead and introduce those, too.

We could just call it "SuperMMO!"

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I have addressed the problem with polls in my OP. Frankly, 90% "the people" are morons.

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A statement like this begs the question "And you're not because?" Accusing people who disagree with you of being morons is arrogant, self-righteous and not a little egocentric. With a premise like "Other people are stupid, I'm not, so things should be like I say they should be." you may as well not even bother. That just don't fly.

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Again you are missing the point, and making a personal attack. I think it was P.T. Barnum who said "no one ever lost a buck by under estimating the intelligence of the American public." Just because some thing is popular doesn't mean it's good. The Back Street Boys sell a whole lot of CDs, and yet the Ramones never got to do a world wide arena tour. Go figure.

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We all enjoy the quiet perception that our is the truly "good" taste.

Your is actually a good example: Back Street Boys was marketted, in its demographic, towards teens.

Guess what a large part of the MMO demographic is?

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... like I need a hole in the head.\

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I utterly agree with you.

Are there blade wielding heroes in comics?

Certainly.

Are there blade wielding heroes in comics to any extent present in ratio to the whole as to be reflected in the manner they are in CoX?

Nah.

I think they're moving further and further from comics and more to a generalized "powerful people from many genres" MMO.

I mean, using the logic of "but some heroes use blades!" or "just look at manga", I could also say that this game lacks actual vampires as heroes (present in comics), powerless heroes who still kick [censored] (See Rex Havoc), furry animals as heroes (and no, RPing a catgirl just don't cut it - I'm talking about a zoo crew. Actual human sized animals. See Pig Iron, et al), all of these things are present in comics, but hardly enough to justify their presence in-game.

I totally understood having a blade in scrapper sets.

However, having 3 out of 8 scrapper sets be blades seems slightly askew as far as representing the "comics".

That said, hey, if they make players happy... whatever. More money, more content, better game as far as I'm concerned. Let the Drizzts go forth and multiply, let the Stabby Stabberson WoW rogue recreations fill the map, let the homages to Sturm Brightblade shine on. More money.

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I take winner, please. Either side. I'm flexible.

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...

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Yeah I'm looking at that now and it didn't really come out the way I intended...

I meant that I---


Actually, I sort of like it as is.

Flexibly,

Emnity

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Don't make me do you like I did the loot naysayers, Venture. Don't make me!

Bring it. :P


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Careful, Venture. Thanks to I11, Geko's got a whole lot of new things to hit you with. Sledgehammers, shovels, pipewrenches... this could get ugly.

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And buff IO's and purple loot...

Oh hey, never mind. Go for it guys!

*sits back with popcorn*

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*sits next to Lady_A with a box of junior mints*

ugly? no no no, this could get awesome.

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*backs up the station wagon*
*pulls out the grill and the cooler*

Geko vs. Venture? Sweet!

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I take winner, please. Either side. I'm flexible.

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I used to do that with Checkers fries when there were some in Puerto Rico. Now that I'm in TN, I cant find any near me.

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Depending on where you are in TN, you have it, you just don't know it... it's under a different name.

Long before Checkers, there was a little place called "Central Park" - same premise, a tiny drive-through kiosk where you bought burgers and fries. They did it all first: spiced/battered fries, apple nuggets, etc.

I know there are some in both Chattanooga and Knoxville, don't know about elsewhere.

They are superior to Checkers.

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I know black pudding sounds disgusting, but it tastes like heaven.

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The most delicious sausage is made from crap that you wouldn't eat if you knew in advance.

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My girlfirend disagrees.























Sorry that was supposed to go in the PWNZ forum.


K I'm leaving now.

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Bacon, and I mean REAL BACON, not the streaky cheap bacon wannabe you get over in the US.

Eggs

Sausage

Baked Beans

Black Pudding

Served with toast or fried bread

And about a gallon of strong black Coffee.

*has gone to heaven*

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aside from the coffee and pudding, that sounds wonderful.

(sorry, not a coffee guy, or insane)

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I know black pudding sounds disgusting, but it tastes like heaven.

I'll say this for the UK area: they know how to do breakfast. Be is bangers and mash, beans on toast or just a big steaming pile of rich pudding, if I ever move there I'll be at high risk for a coronary.

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Oh if anyone if the ATL area knows where I can get real bacon I will be forever in their debt.

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You can't order it online?

I just typed in www.britishbacon.com and found a site that will ship it. It looks like the picture you linked.

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Gecko, if the ability to find mail-order bacon isn't a super power, then I am going to quit this [censored] game. You go.

I12: I want the bacon power set and I want it now:

Fatback: Ranged AoE - The caster rubs a slab of fatback on the ground in a circular area, causing enemies to fall repeatedly as they slip on its savory goodness.

Leaf Lard: Caster tosses one slice of leaf lard at an opponent, holding him in a mass of sticky goo. The lard can also be ignited for additional fire damage.

Canadian Bacon: (This power uses the "slice of ham" animation) - caster hurls a chunk of Canadian bacon at the feet of an opponent. Opponent is stunned for 8 to 12 seconds as they try and figure out what sort of country would call what is obviously a slice of ham "bacon".

Cracklin' Cornbread: Caster whips up a delicious panful of cracklin cornbread... y'know, where the cracklin' is done up all nice and crisp... all enemies in the area are held in place as they await a slice with some honeyed butter.



I could go on. Pork is, after all, the only meat on this planet which can make ANY other meat taste better.

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However, seriously Bill, McGriddles? Ugh... The person who thought up making a sandwich with pancakes and syrup needs to be shot

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Thou knowest not of that which thou speak.

I SHALL SMITE THEE!

'Course I'm from the south. We'll eat anything with our breakfast - mutton on the pancakes, beer in the cereal (microbrew - we're not heathens) - ketchup in the eggs and grits on the sausage, which is like-as-not made of a mixture of pork and venison.

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I asked him if he needed to go, and he said "No". I kept thinking "Oh Lord, that child has had an accident, and I don't have any clean clothes with me." Then I said, "Danny, are you SURE you didn't have an accident?" "No," he replied.
I just KNEW that he must have had an accident, because the smell was getting worse. So, I asked one more time,
"Danny, did you have an accident?" This time he jumped up, yanked down his pants, bent over, spread his cheeks and yelled "SEE MOM, IT'S JUST FARTS!! NOW PAY FOR YOUR FOOLISH QUESTIONS!"

He then spewed forth a cone of neurotoxic gas, flooring my recharge, and, turning, thrust a french fry into my left eyeball for 78.2 toxic damage.

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That's how the story should have ended.

You guys are doing a really nice job with this. Very nice

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Everyone go back to whining...

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Hilarious.

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Archana... after having done a post search on this... very emotionally involved fellow... why are you bothering?

Seriously: he's using the forum as an emotional catharsis. Just let him rant, he's harmless without some poor poster's response to mangle.

Post deleted by Emnity

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Please... hardly. I just won't get into a pissing match with someone who obviously cannot debate the points at hand and must resort to twisting my words around and saying stupid things like "well yeah, it's a Super Hero RPG but that doesn't mean it has to be actually like Super Heroes, now does it?"

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What's surprising about that? Middle-age fantasy based games often don't feature dysentery, plague, drilled teeth sans anesthesia and people getting wed at 13 years old, either.

There is only so much of an inspiriational source one can reflect in an MMO, sadly.

I've lost all use for "this should be more/less like the inspirational source" arguments. Comics have The Beyonder. Work that into your game engine.

I thought it a majorly flawed event and here's why:

There is a serious disparity in the number of heroes vs. the number of villains. If you had a stable of heroes you wanted to get these badges/parts on then you needed to be prepared, depending on server, to stand in what was essentially a line as the few vilaains playing slowly cycled through the HEAP of heroes needing a villain to run a missions.

Conversley, as a villain, you had your choice of heroes to accompany you.

So it was a bit maddening, and saw me give up pretty quick trying to run a lot of my Triumph and Guardian heroes through it - just wasn't worth the wait for the smattering of villains.

When you base an event on two different player bases, you sort of need them to be relatively equal.

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A well written and thorough guide, thank you for posting it!

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!!!

Ishtar!!!

Where you been man!!?

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(Quick Reply)
Just to clear up:
No, we're not discussing any changes to Shivan's or the Warburg Nukes at this time. Shivan's are easier to get than anticipated, but even that is not likely to be changed in the near future. My original post was meant to show that we knew how these powers were being used -- and that is all.

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The only change I'd like to see is a mandate preventing ANYONE who uses Shivan's or Nuke's from saying they "solo'ed an AV." It just ain't right!

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I also demand that anyone who uses temp powers stop calling themselves a "soloist" in general! Next they'll be relying on "enhancements"!

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In the end, just restrict all PvP gained powers to the PvP zones.

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How about this: once you zone into the PvP zones, you can't zone back out again. That would prevent powers, badges, influence, experience, inspirations, and salvage gained in those zones from ever leaving.

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/signed.

Carebears must die.

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Which would mean the game would die in, oh, three months?

Which would mean all PvPers would die.

Mutually assured destruction.

Hey, I'll push the button. Do you have the rocks?

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It's just about as reasonable as half of the PvE suggestions that pop up seemingly every day.

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Lol mindless PVE/PVP gamer hate for the win.