Eldagore

I just wanted to put more history into this a bit....
Regen needed somthing. IH got the bat. IMO I dont care for how clicky the set got, but plenty of people dont mind so thats fine. I think most players would say regen is a decent set right now and probably doesnt need much adjustment for any reason.



invuln- Invinc. was broken, and i mean literally. I forget exactly, but it was something along the lines of instead of "tics" checking for def once every 3 seconds or something, a decimal was wrong and it was checking 10 times in 3 seconds. So, in an ingenius move, the dev team gutted the resists out of invuln hardcore. Surprisingly that did almost nothing to alter how invuln was surviving. Then the bug was discovered, and fixed. And then they did not roll back anything else, at least not for a long freegin time when they finally increased the autos. i think it took them over 2 years for that, but I dont recall exactly. As such, invuln went from a set that was supposedly based on Res with some plus HP and minor def to add on, to mostly a def set with strong S/L res and plus HP. Again though, i think a lot of players feel invuln functions fine as is. I cant speak personally on this, after the crazy ride my main tank took over the years on that, i have not felt inclined to roll another invuln, even years later. maybe I will change that


As for DA, I think a lot of players feel DA is also fine. but a lot of players base this on IO's or lvl 50 performance. Ido not think it is a secret invuln and especially regen are stable and reliable to lvl 1-50, where DA is a pretty wild ride most of the time. I tend to agree on the idea of too much penalty on CoF. IMO, the accuracy is the worst offender there. the power requires massive slotting to provide similar defenses to OG, unless you run the dmg aura at which point the cost of CoF is rediculous for what it provides.

Anyway, thats my trip in the wayback machine to I2-I5

well
1. I know CoD gives immob protection, thats why I said you would need to add it for your invuln comparison. And accro for the KB hole.
2. Not all comparisons are apples and oranges, just the one you chose, which is why i requested some others.
The rest- i agree. I had a hunch SR was relatively close to DA, as it also wasnt on top of the heep back in the good ol days. I think DA and SR are very close in the high levels, and at low levels also as most players run with minimum toggles anyway for endo and well, a lot of the time there is no need.
As in my other post though, I think SR is ahead of DA in the middle, which is a decent chunk of a characters career. Not maybe so much on paper, but in the what you pay for what you get feel of the characters you run with those sets. DA can be a wild ride, and managing both green and blue bars gets hairy when the build is slot starved yet. SR can be that way, but usually the downs are a little farther apart, and there is no big dips in the blue bar like in the DA set. It is the nature of Def vs Res, and it lends a more "solid" feel to SR in the 20's and 30's. The player still needs to be wary, but overall in my experiance anyway, the SR characters tend to be more predictable in a given fight- and that means quite a lot to "casual" players that arent building for min/max incarnate end game builds. Especially for a tank.

I touched on a lot of that in my other post- this isnt directed right at you Arcana- but its sort of like the short memory thing. back in the good ol days, the dark armor suxxz camp was MUCH larger then the Dark Armor rulz camp, because of that predictability factor, and due to how it leveled. When there was no incarnate content, or IO's, or anything for a 50 to do, the journy from 1-50 was a lot more relevant. And to a new free player without all those same things, it will be again.
heh, who knows- maybe SR needs a quality of life for SO's pass too. I am not going there though- I wouldnt know where to start lol.

yes, and you have no immob protection or KB protection either. I understand the idea you present, but your comparison is apples and oranges as invuln gives complete mez protection in this comparison. you would have to add accro and CoD, and then protection values likely will not compare well as DA should come out on top at that point- but it's endo use should be higher also.

How does that scenario play out if you use SR or WP or something different like ninjitsu?

I disagree. if it had 2/3 the dmg and the same recharge, I would be ok withit. If it had the same dmg, and 4/3 the recharge I would be ok with it. After all it is a pool power.

But it has both of those things.

It's like a christmas tree with only 2 good sides out of 4. No matter which way you turn it, you cant hide all the bad spots against the wall. So eventually you say f it and tell people it has character and you love it or throw it out and look for something else.

I am of the throw it out and use something better group. Not all people are in this group, but I am not alone in it either.

You misunderstand my post. I actually find the concept of attacking while dead sort of silly, hence the LOL.

The adding Nukes to defiance I thought was actually a good idea and something that could be part of the puzzle on a solid rework of nukes. I then added a few of my own thoughts to that idea.

I suppose i could have put a more straightforward split there for clarity.

On the subject of cost though, I think if a nuke were to work in defiance, it would have to have a type of "crash" cost, or rather an "after cast" cost. If blasters could use a nuke as a sort of break free, it would need the cost to be small for activation, with appropriate "crash" cost after the dmg and effects are applied. Having a steep up front cost would serve to limit it's usefulness as there would be many times a blaster could not afford to use the power when they needed it most.

For instance, if the power cost 5 end to activate, but then had a 25% endo crash after, a blaster could use the power almost whenever they needed it, but the actual cost in the crash would possibly cause a toggle drop if the players endo bar were too low when they activated it. This would allow the mechanic to have a sort of strategic feel behind it- forcing the player to choose if a dmg/mez break is worth it depending on how full the blue bar is or how big of trouble they are in. After all, maybe a endo crash toggle drop is still better odds then just standing there stunned getting pummeled- but then again maybe it isn;t. It would keep some of that strategic feel to the power as opposed to making it a "spam it for mez protection every chance you get!" power.

LOL. That brings a whole new meaning to the term "corpse blasting"!!

But there is merit to the idea of a nuke in defiance. I would add to that idea the nuke only drops 25% endo and then...wait for it.... gives 10 seconds of mez protection after.

"You cant stop me! I wont let you!! I have to win!!" (nukes, breaks free of constraints)

Nukes need MOAR then just that, but it would be a really good start I think. It helps patch up an AT hole AND fits nicely into comic theme.

Nice idea William_Valence.

I understand your intent now. And I agree on blaster primaries. I dont really agree on the secondaries. The idea dark fits with elec and fire still leaves it not fitting with EM, MM, or devices. The "pattern" as you put it really is only hit or miss in the secondaries. There are similarities here and there, like for instance the blap pattern in EM and ELM, but no two of the manip sets are really similar. EM and ELM share a blap pattern, but the other half of the secondary is very different with EM having self buff clicks and ELM having pbaoe soft controls. ELM and fire share the pbaoe soft control, but fire has pbaoe attacks and ELM has blaps.
If we look at the initial sets, there are numerous unique effect powers scattered throughout. Power boost, boost range, hot feet and burn, chilling embrace, ice patch, most of devices. SO the "template" was pretty freegin diverse, to the point I wouldnt call it a template. If you have most every soft control or secondary effect in the game plus some self buffs and damage powers scattered throughout the secondaries its just too many things to call it a recipe. Like calling the template european food and then looking at pickled herring, crepes, boiled potatoes, and gazpacho. Sure, some of the secondaries share some attributes, and yes, in a broad scope they can play out similar like /fire and /elec can with the need to be in close combat to leverage the sets well, but overall the range of powers and effects is quite large.

Then we see MM, they add a big regen/recovery self boost power, dmg aura with actual mez confuse in it too, and a cone attack. Even with just the cone attack they had broken the so called "template" by adding ranged damage to the secondary.

So I agree there is a fairly standard format to the primary. But I disagree on the secondary. I do not feel there was any obligation or even and need for the devs to follow some kind of set pattern for DM. I feel they missed an opportunity to make a unique set with some really neat powers found throughout the dark powersets, and instead went with something "safe" with a bunch of blaps in another hard to leverage close combat secondary.

Its sort of funny really. Its a contradiction of sorts. Everyone always says melle toons get defenses because of the risk. So if we make DM a set full of blaps, including a build up substitue that requires a crowd to leverage right, did we add some kind of defense toggle, even a fairly reliable soft mez like oppressive gloom or cloak of fear? or an anti aggro toggle like cloak of darkness that adds stealth? or any type of power that can make a spawn slightly less dangerous for the squishy little blaster to engage with the other powers found in the set? No. we put in a dmg aura that does meh dmg and draws aoe aggro as a reward for it. We put in a stun aoe that has on all accounts really bad balance issues regarding cost including but not limited to duration. We put in a cone blap with a fairly long-ish animation time to root the blaster.

Really it sort of flies in the face of what players have been arguing over- the survivability vs dmg output of the blaster. A ranged specialist gets a new set that is designed as a contradiction to the melee risk/defence standard that has few if any tools to aid in that ranged dmg.

So anyway I disagree on the template idea for secondaries. Unless we look at it in the enormously broad scope of does it fit the template of not offering much to alter the shortcomings of the blaster AT. In which case I would agree it fits the template.


*edit

I thought maybe I should add what i was hoping for DM was not some kind of massive shift. Looking at the current secondaries, there really is a wide array of powers and effects. So why then with all that diversity does it just not really work? its the way those powers work in game play, how they need to be leveraged. I understand how there is this fear of tank magery behind the old design. but really it is not so black and white, blasters dont need obsidian shield and dark embrace in the secondary to use blaps. In fact they should not have that as those types of hard defenses also work at range. So you need close combat powers to bring the defenses. "But we have that!!" some one will say. But we dont- not in a way that meshes. DM has blaps. It should have a melee defense to use those blaps. that mellee defense can not work at range. We have powrs in game that function in this way, like oppressive gloom and cloak of fear.

that is the type of change I have been waiting for, a set designed to mesh like 4 blaps and an oppressive gloom to reduce melle damage some to use said blaps. Or a set with self buff clicks like boost range and power boost, but then with support powers like that ranged fear power or a confuse power. and yes, maybe a good ol blap or two. But we continue to get these disjointed contradictory sets instead that dont patch up any of the flaws.

And I really really hope they can see this when they do some kind of nuke change.

Well I for one could see how Hawk would be concerned about giving warshades to much damage. I mean with the perma eclipse thing and the various other benefits the AT gets....

Oh wait you said PB. Yeah those PB are top of the list for game breakers

No I was just responding to your response of another posters response about how dark manip. got so many close range/blap type powers.

Also, the last manip set we got has a ranged cone attack in it. It also has one blap, well two if you count TK thrust but I consider TK thrust a misplaced tier 1 attack. The rest of the set is a mix of ranged and pbaoe powers, with mix and match among those between dmg and support type. In any case it certainly isn't anything like dark manipulation turned out to be. Actually a lot of people were excited about MM as an alternative to EM for a secondary because it finally offered something besides half a dozen blap powers.

I agree devices is somewhat on the fringe. EM not containing ranged attacks isnt really what I was trying to get at when comparing it to DM though. It is ok that EM doesnt have ranged attacks. in fact it isnt even so bad it has several blaps. What makes it different is it has support or self buff type powers that dont require any risk to use.

Electric and fire manip play out more similar then they appear on paper as they share close range attacks coupled with self buff or foe debuff powers that require a fair amount of risk to use. the style of each and utility may differ some, but in a general view I feel they could be lumped up. Dark manip. seems to fit in with this group more then with say, energy or mental. Basically I would group them sort of like this...

Elec and fire. I think Ice fits here too but freezing touch doesnt do enough damage to be a real third blap. Ice could also sort of go with mental with all the pbaoe buff/debuff.
Devices
Energy manip
mental manip

So there is 2.5 sets in one group, and then 3 other sets that play a little different from the others.

thats how I see it, which is why I commented on your template comment. I dont feel enough of the sets are copies of each other to consider there to be a template of sorts. Given what I grouped above, I feel Dark fits in with elec and fire easily.

that in itself isnt a terrible thing. However, given how the forum popular consensus appears to be the only thing /fire is good for is fire/fire or aoe/faceplant builds, and /elec is used for sapping or theme(all else seems to be done at least as good or better by other sets) I found it odd the devs would use those sets as a basis for the new dark set, rather then the more popular mental manip or energy manip sets.

Further, given the changes the game has seen one would think a new secondary would be a perfect opportunity to address some shortcomings the players feel the AT has, or at the least try a few things and use the new set as a test bed to see how things go. Instead, they went back to the 2 sets that are (IMO) the most difficult to leverage and used those as an example for the new set.

Anyway, I guess I wasnt really asking you anything, I was more just jumping in on the conversation. As for how that all relates to the crashless nukes, I feel just as the secondary doesnt have enough consistency to keep the devs from doing something new, I dont think their hands should be bound on the possible revamp of a nuke. As many have pointed out, the contrast in perfomance and utility in the nuke powers just puts a spotlight on the inconsistency. It will ultimatly be up to them if they feel a power like RoA should be the norm, or a power like Inferno should be, or if something totally new or some hybrid should be. I kind of hope the last one.

Hasn't energy manipulation been around since...launch? It has some blaps. It also has boost range, power boost, conserve power and something besides a stupid immob power in tier 1.

See also, Devices.

I do not see the precedent you speak of as there are two exceptions around since forever. Dark manip. spawned numerous speculation and wishlist threads, I posted in a few along with some others requesting something besides a blapper secondary. This request was ignored. There are so many "cool tricks" powers spread out amongst the dark powersets it would be at least as easy to whip one up out of support powers as it was to make yet another flavored blapper set. At the least they could have added boost range to the set designed for the ranged damage AT.

This. Pretty much what I just wrote. I havent made any double purchases yet, but I was extremely dissapointed it would be so blatently easy to do so. It feels underhanded. Points are expensive. It shouldnt be so easy to blow them all on something you already have. But at least there is a known issue listed with almost exactly the opposite sentiment.


*edit: I just thought of something. maybe they could make an account unlockable available in the store for 10,000 points that tracks what you buy in the store so you dont buy something multiple times!! That way, people wont spend money needlessly!! (rolls eyes)

This. EM is still in "time out" from being a tad overpowered before. Like most over-nerfed sets, the overpowered was due to a bug that of course was not discovered until after the nerf was handed out.

Still, there is hope now. Fire tanks finally got out of "time out" with burn getting changed somewhat recently. So maybe, if we are lucky, EM will get altered to make it actually fun again sometime soon.