Dispari

Really it's more like this:

"I choose not to do any of the content associated with this new system, but I want everything the new system has to offer anyway."

While it's technically possible to advance in the incarnate system without getting components or running raids, those people really shouldn't complain about the speed. They're looking a gift horse in the mouth. The CoH devs could've just as easily said "Look, this incarnate stuff? It's team oriented content. You have to do that to get it."

Instead, they provided an alternative means of advancement. Other games wouldn't even bother.

1600 if you use the better conversion rate (which is time-locked but still halves your shard requirements).

For reference, very rare alpha requires 488 shards if you refuse to ever team. So it is more, but that's intentional.

You know it's pretty likely that you can get Threads as regular drops in another way to save shards, or get components by doing certain tasks and saving even more time. Using the same basis, a current Alpha very rare costs 488 shards. If Threads drop (even if rarely) from regular stuff then I see it being longer, but still reasonable.

Also, try the 10/6 conversion rate unless you're in a super hurry (and already have 3200 shards to waste??)

This is one of those "you can't please people" things isn't it?

This issue has too much stuff. They should've taken some of it out.

...

Hey that looks oddly familiar to something I was going to post.

Not an animal outfit, but I got use out of the leopard pattern. I already posted this in the other thread, but since there's an official one now:

Yes, a Stalker's base crit rate is 10%. Each ally adds 3%. So 3 * 7 = 21%, plus the first 10% for 31% total. That depends on all 7 allies on the team being within a 30 foot radius of the Stalker though, not behind walls or any other LOS obstructions.

We were talking about Stalkers lacking AoE DPS and AoE powers overall. If you butted into the conversation to run it off on a tangent about hypothetical sets they might one day get or what they do in different circumstances, then there's no point in continuing said argument with you. That's not what we were talking about. So if you want to change the subject and rant about how I "don't understand," go ahead. Whatever point you were trying to make, since it had nothing to do with what we were talking about, I have no interest in discussing.

If I'm understanding what you said wrong it's only because what you're saying has nothing to do with the argument.

The argument we were having is that Stalkers lack in AoE damage output because they have less AoEs in nearly all their sets. You then chimed in to say Super Strength only has one AoE. Which I guess you meant as, "therefore, any set with only one AoE is as good as Super Strength," which is wrong.

Foot Stomp does 59 damage for a Brute every 20 seconds. It has a huge 15 foot radius and can hit 10 targets. With Rage, a Brute runs around doing 160-210 damage every time. Before Fury, which can raise it to 300. Regardless, Foot Stomp is not the only draw of SS, as Rage has huge benefits for epic attacks.

All the powers you named are not giant 15 foot radius PBAoEs. You will not, in fact, always have BU up, nor Hide. You will not hit as many enemies reliably. You will not have massive damage buffs from an always available Rage.

If your only point is to say that occasionally you can do a big spike damage when all the factors are on your side and do a decent hit in AoE, then yes. But that's not the argument we're having. You're highly deluded if you think a DB Stalker puts out the kind of AoE damage that an SS Brute -- or even a DB Scrapper does. And if that's not the argument you're trying to make, then whatever argument you are trying to make is irrelevant to the discussion at hand anyway.

Correct.

Not even close to the damage or area of coverage of Foot Stomp. Nor is BU or hide available every cycle, unlike Rage, which is an easy 80% if not 160%.

Foot Stomp is great because it has high damage, a huge radius compared to all other PBAoE melee powers, and still gets to stack Rage so you can do +80% to +160% all the time.

You're right that it's the quality of AoEs that matter. Stalkers lose the highest quality AoEs. They're limited to much smaller cones that hit fewer foes for less damage. They also can't have BU (or double BU) up constantly when using those AoEs.

Stalkers lose flat out PBAoEs like Whirling Sword, Spin, Whirling Hands, Dragon's Tail, Typhoon's Edge, and Lotus Drops. Claws also loses the AoE in Eviscerate, and MA loses the bonus crit of Dragon's Tail for another effective 1/3 of an AoE. Some sets like Dark Melee lose out on what minor AoE potential that they might've had. Some are left with zero AoEs period (MA, EM).

Being the quality of the AoEs that matter, Stalkers are not setting any records or doing any amazingly significant AoE contributions with small, narrow cones or minor damage cones like Flashing Steel. The best off sets in this regard are Elec, Spines, and to a lesser extent KM (although that set has low AoE potential regardless of AT, Stalkers didn't lose much). But expecting every Stalker to be Elec because it's the only set that didn't lose an AoE attack is just not an option.

I touched on that earlier, but yeah, in addition to just the 5% damage advantage in ideal situations, Scrappers also have the following advantages:

* BU is +100% instead of +80% (advantage over all Stalker sets)
* Scrappers get Soul Drain (+220% possible)
* Scrappers get Follow Up (perma +75% possible)
* Scrappers get Blinding Feint (perma +75% possible)
* Scrappers get Power Siphon
* Scrappers get Fiery Embrace
* Scrappers get Against All Odds (up to 68.75% damage)
* Scrapper combos do not rely on BU, Placate, or AS
* Scrappers get Fire Melee
* Scrappers get Shield Charge
* Scrappers get damage toggles (Death Shroud, Blazing Aura, Quills)
* BS, DB, Katana, KM, MA have +1 AoE; Claws has +2
* Numerous powers come earlier (Touch of Fear, Crane Kick, Parry)

Even besides damage advantages, Scrappers get more endurance management options. They get better returns on +HP powers (even ignoring the difference for heals and +regen powers). They have the ability to taunt and draw aggro if they desire. They don't suffer performance-wise from autohits, patches, or AoEs. They have an even and predictable performance regardless of where their teammates are in relation to them.

Stalkers just lack in so many ways that there's a huge gap between what they sacrifice and what they gain for said sacrifices.

This is where the problem lies though.

Stalkers can do more damage than a Scrapper, but only by a little.

Scrapper: 1.125 * 1.1 = 1.24*
Stalker: 1.00 * 1.31 = 1.31

* = For the sake of argument, Scrappers have 10% crit rate on anything that actually matters. Especially since the argument is mostly based around AVs. Doesn't really matter about minions, and even if it does, well, AoEs take those out and Scrappers have those.

Okay, so a Stalker is doing more than the Scrapper. By a measley 5-6%. Only when the entire team is huddled very close. The average Blaster, Corruptor, heck even Doms, half the VEATs, Khelds, Defenders, Controllers, Masterminds -- basically a ton of people aren't always going to be within spitting distance of the Stalker. Sure those times will happen, maybe if everyone is clever enough to huddle around the AV for Fulcrum Shift or whatever, but those times will be rare. Teams are dynamic, people want to leverage their range advantage or use cones, maybe even split up a little at times. If even one person wanders off to the side, the damage diff is only 3%. If two people are out of the way, Stalker is doing less.

But here's the deal, even if you meet that rare circumstance, the Stalker still has: A) less AoE, B) less self-defense. So he's going to underperform in all the group mob settings (which are 95% of the content generally, this AV scenario being the tiny minority) even if you have all 7 people squeezed in near him. And he'll die easier than the Scrapper would.

Is a mere 5% damage advantage, in not-guaranteed circumstances, in a minority of the game's content worth having less AoE and less survival?

The "role" I'm talking about is ST damage and burst damage specialist, which isn't a role that teams seek out or need, ever. The game just isn't designed that way, and even if you have an AoE heavy team, everybody still has enough ST damage to do anything that needs doing. Scrappers fill a general damage role, along with Blasters and others (heck I consider Doms a damage slot when I'm filling up teams) -- that includes both ST as well as having other benefits, without making huge sacrifices to be good at ST, unlike Stalkers.

There are various roles that people look for. None of them is necessary for any one task (barring some debatable and rare situations), but all of them are useful and can flesh out a team's capabilities. When people look for people to fill slots, they usually look for A) damage dealers, B) support (buffs/debuffs/mez), and C) tanking. They aren't looking for "Burst damage specialist."

When I look for a damage class I go Scrapper, Blaster, Brute, maybe Doms. I'll also look for VEATs and Corrs as they double as damage and support. I don't look for Stalkers because I know that they don't have as many AoEs, don't do as much damage as a Scrapper unless the entire team is huddled closely around them, and are easier to kill than a Scrapper. The fact that they do do good burst damage is unnecessary and irrelevant to a team, so there's no reason to take them over a Scrapper.

Granted, most teams don't need to be min/maxed and frankly most teams of 4 could handle spawns for 8 so it doesn't matter if one person or even half the team is sub-par. So if there's a Stalker looking and I'm feeling lazy, or a friend has a Stalker, then yes I'd be glad to take them. But there's never a time when I pull up the search window and look for a Stalker. They simply don't do anything a team would ever need or want. At least not with the sacrifices they make to be good at something totally pointless to a team. As the question of the thread is "Stalker or Scrapper?" the answer is always Scrapper.

I'm sure UberGuy could make some convincing arguments or them being excellent at soloing. I solo my Stalker because I hate getting hit by AoEs on teams and losing my ability to AS or crit, which makes me feel useless -- so I just solo. I have no interest in arguing a Stalker's solo performance though. They could be the best ones in the game at it. But for me, their performance on a team is nothing a Scrapper couldn't do better. Any supposed advantages or expertise they bring are unnecessary or not worth the downsides.

Kind of content: All teaming content

Goals: To complete said content

Speeding: Maybe (hint: You don't need Stalkers to speedrun, in fact most teams don't use them, and there are plenty of more capable people at speeding and recalling; the average Brute or Tanker can just run through enemies without even needing stealth)

Glowies: Probably (hint: Stalkers are not especially competent at finding and clicking glowies, at least no moreso than other stealthers, since they suppress when clicking; in fact Widows are better at it since they have both stealth and smoke grenade; Stalkers would be less competent than the average stealthy Scrapper, VEAT, Controller, Brute, Tank or even a Dom who has invis for LotG mule since they'd be more likely to solo a spawn if necessary)

AV: Maybe (hint: Stalkers are not especially good at killing AVs; AVs are a DPS game and Stalkers are sub-par compared to other pure damage classes you could take such as Scrapper or Blaster; any other option such as VEAT, Brute, or Tanker would at least bring team buffs or ability to take significantly more damage and hold aggro)

300 foes: Probably (hint: Stalkers have less AoEs than anyone else, and regardless of content you're going to be spending 95% of your time fighting large swarms of things)

Powersets: All of them (hint: Stalkers are at a disadvantage in damage buffs and self-defense; the only set Stalkers get that's particularly great is Ninjitsu, but sets like Fire Armor, Shield Defense, and sets with alternatives to BU are more advantageous in a teaming environment)

"Scrapper or Stalker on your team" is not clear enough that the discussions in this thread are about who you're inviting to your team?

It's not hyperbole, and I didn't resort to skirting any discussion of something that "might actually" be a problem. I said exactly what I intended to say. The actual real problem with Stalkers is literally what I said: they have no meaningful advantages over Scrappers. They have less HP, an abysmal HP cap, less defensive powers (in some cases), less AoEs (in most cases), less base damage, less DPS. They even have a handful of extra downsides like how BU can't compete with Soul Drain or Follow Up, or how they don't get things like Shield Defense or Fire Armor. The only advantage they do have is burst damage, which is not a meaningful advantage, or even a useful one for teaming.

In order to fill a role that nobody needs in the first place, they take a hit to performance in every other area. That is why Stalkers are weak and unpopular.

And please don't resort to "nobody needs any role in the first place," because people still have uses and desires to find things like buffers, debuffers, tankers, mezzers. They fit into any team makeup and can improve the performance of the team overall even if they aren't totally necessary. Stalkers fill a role that nobody wants or needs to look for.

The point of a task force is content. You do it for fun and/or rewards. Everyone doing a task force is getting the point. There's no law saying you have to run a task force for a specific reason. I don't tend to like speedruns. But I don't think those people are missing the point. In fact they're getting to the point pretty quick because they want the reward.

Purples aren't a big deal. Nobody's really guaranteed purples while doing any content. Odds of someone getting a purple during a TF are pretty low anyway. Maybe one person gets one purple every dozen TFs I do.

Shards are legitimate. But that's changing in i20. I would've liked it to be now, but I can deal. I did five SMSFs yesterday. Four under an hour, one 1:20. I won't be doing any repeats of course.

I wanna watch the whole thing. Even the previews before the movie starts. For movies I've already seen.

I mean, later I might want to just watch the fight scenes from Matrix Reloaded. The rest of that movie sucked but those parts are good so we can just fast forward. But at the moment I want to watch a whole movie.

Or I could just watch Iron Man with my friends who actually like Iron Man as much as I do and would like to watch it again with me.