Deus_Otiosus

I understand that it might not have been the original design intent, that's not actually what I said.

I said:

"For the position they currently fill on actual redside teams..."

And the position they currently fill is alpha duty/aggro control or as JuliusSeizure put it 'stickyness'.


So it's not really important now whether that was the original intent, because that's the role they ended up filling, for multiple reasons.



It might be "self imposed" but it's also something I see as a practicality.

I've been on teams where the MM was playing "Tankermind", and it worked.

But it was slow before fights, chaotic and hectic during them.

Not to mention that running around in a cave with multiple MMs make's me want to quit teams out of not being able to even move.

(note: I have nothing against masterminds, but I have a lot of hate for caves. )


The hit points and 400% taunt attribute are also there as well.

It works out to a full package of aggro duty. This doesn't make you a Tanker, this makes you capable of aggro duty.

The two are not one in the same.

Let's say Brutes did not have the taunt attribute, and the higher hit points, do you really think 90% resistance caps would have led the population to believe that Brutes are there for aggro control?


I wonder if the general playerbase, the ones that do not use mids or come to the forums, even know that Brutes have a 90% Resistance cap.

For the position they currently fill on actual redside teams, I don't think the 90% cap is out of order.

It's not blueside, where there is a clear division between Scrappers and Tankers and the roles they fill.

They also can't get near that cap on their own.

GoRo will be changing this dynamic, but I don't think even GoRo will make this seem like a big deal.

True.

But Dechs' point still stands, the Brute soaks up Fulcrum/Painbringer/Forge better than the Tanker ever could.

Besides, my Brute get's 6.5% fury when someone Farts in his general direction.

I think a lot of blueside only players often forget that on redside, players "manage" to complete the LRSF regularly without Tankers or the higher buff numbers of Defenders.

The Hulk is a Brute! He's the original Brute that went Rogue.


"The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets."
- The Incredible Hulk vol. 3, #109-#111 (Oct.-Dec. 2007)
Wikipedia entry for The Hulk





I do agree with you, that you can't compare Comic Book heroes to the ATs they may have inspired in game.

As you said, in comic book universes/multiverses there are huge scales of variance in powers among beings - with no artificial level based (ex: L10 vs. L50) discrepancy, and no excuses made.

A prime example of this is when Doomsday lays waste to The Justice League. Those were all experienced, and seasoned heroes - they simply were completely out of their league. If Superman himself had ever gone on a berserk rampage, they'd have been in a similar situation.


Comic book heroes are more often designed within this power scale, dictating what magnitude of feats they are capable of accomplishing (with plot often making generous exceptions both for and against them) both physically, mentally and in some circumstances spiritually (usually for magic based stories).




However I do agree in general with Umbral in reagrds to the concept that Scrappers lean more toward skill (as opposed to finesse), where Brutes lean more toward raw power.

That being said, the line is blurry in some instances - especially where primary sets are shared, and also because Brutes in general were designed with blurry lines with their hybrid in-game mechanics.

Quote of the day?



Werner, I much prefer to think of it as "numbersfondling" where the numbers clearly enjoy it.

Brutes do not fear retaliation. They thrive on it.


It's one of the things that sold me on the Brute AT completely.



As a side note, most Scrappers I've played with have no fear of retaliation either - they just don't get as much of as it Brute's tend to.

KD seems to work just fine for me against Cim Traitors.

I'm not sure where the discrepancy might stem from.

For what I think you're looking for (a tanker like secondary for Brutes), I think you might want to look into /Invuln.

Invuln is plenty sturdy, and with a solid build can achieve impressive levels of mitigation without all of Stone Armors negatives - you'll be great both teaming and solo.

As for the Darkseid Theme, I would look to the stone costume set, mixed with other pieces. You'll actually look a lot more like Darkseid that way, then you would in Granite. Granite looks more like a stone elemental or boulder come to life.


As for primaries, DM, Elec, and EM would all fit thematically.

But for performance, DM, Elec and even SS would be my choices. You can fill out with powers from a patron to add to overall theme, and use the power customization options as well.


I would avoid Dark Armor as your first time Brute. Dark Armor is a solid set for Tankers, but it has several issues to overcome for Brutes which while not impossible would not be something I would recommend either.

I'll make my comments here as someone who plays both an SS Brute and a Claws Brute and who loves both sets.

I love spin, spin is awesome. It most certainly does more DPA than FS hands down.

The radius is sometimes not a problem, and other times it is.

On teams in particular, Foot stomp's radius has a clear advantage. I've often been frustrated with spin's radius on teams, where I know I would have gotten another 2-4 mobs in if it had been foot stomp.


I also personally look at Claws as a 'Scrapper' set. And it excels at dealing damage, with all the other choice benefits it brings to Brutes (chiefly, lower end cost and rech - both of which are great for FURY).

I look at SS as the tanker (or maybe Scranker) style set.

It doesn't have the same damage dealing as Claws, but it does have excellent damage dealing and also provides TEAMWIDE mitigation through Foot stomp's Knockdown.

It's not that taunt isn't "kind of useful" as you put it, it's that Brutes have great choices in their patron power pools making it much harder to squeeze in.

It's also just not very necessary Redside. Most of your fellow teammates will be able to handle themselves.

And to be honest, I've never needed it on co-op TFs either.

I can't think of a single time I was at the forefront of a team, taking alphas and controlling aggro in combat where I thought "I wish I had taunt right now."

If I had more power picks, I might take it. If it was given to me for free, I would use it.

Otherwise, I find I'm fine without it.

I play a SS/WP Brute quite often, I also have a WP/SS Tanker.

If you plan on heavily IOing your Brute, you will be plenty survivable for all manner of "tanking" on teams. (Focus on HP, and typed Def first. You'll want at least 30% SM/L/Nrg/Neg)

You will not be as survivable as a tank, but you will do truckloads more damage.

The difference between both will be quite noticeable early on.

However with the right buffs and support as others have said, you will be able to approach tanker levels of survivability.


Luckily, Corrupters are a popular class redside as are MMs. You'll sometimes be in Brute heavy teams, but more often there'll be corrs or MMs with you.


Don't worry about Willpower's weak taunt aura. You've already played a WP/SS tank, so you have an idea of what you face.

You won't need taunt, I don't have it and I've never needed it. Unless you're one of those people who are obsessed with always trying to have every mob aggro'd to you and you alone (I find tankers often pride themselves on this, it's unnecessary redside).


With Footstomp, and a second AoE from your patron pool (stick with either Soul Mastery or Mu and be sure to pick up one of the AoEs) you'll have no problems maintaining aggro. Just make sure you have enough rech to cycle one or the other within 13s (the duration of the taunt component).


Be mobile, play aggressively, be the first one in the fight and open up with one of your AoEs and you'll hold aggro just fine.

A Brute contributes to aggro control.


This is simply untrue.

I often play as main aggro control for my static team. I've "tanked" (for lack of a better word) the ITF, LGTF and RSF many, many times.


I'd like for you to take the time, if you're willing, to re-read that quote of yours and try to understand why it's way off base, and has no place in a rational discussion.


And just for the record the TEAMS I've been on don't want KB. And I'm usually at most, 1 of 2 melees on the team.

Since I'm usually not the leader, I never give my opinion on what ATs or powersets should or should not come, nor do I tell others how to play.

Everyone is on the same program. And rampant, useless, knockback is not part of it.


All I can say is we're playing different games.

Whether I solo farm +2x8, or I'm on a full team - I'm generally always fully surrounded by mobs.

There is no set up time. None.

I'm not a tanker, I don't do "set up time".

I charge in, hit an AoE and the team engages a second or two after that.


This will be my last response. I don't think any further discussion will affect either of us.

Good luck to you.




What's taking him so long?



I'm saying that in my playstyle, there is as little downtime as possible.

I'm saying that I personally enjoy a ceaseless state of combat, and take measures to ensure of that.

You would rarely wait at all on any team where I would be on alpha, and if you got to the mobs before me I wouldn't say a word if you went and mezzed them - because I failed to get there first.




That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

If only my aggro cap was higher...

I kind of meld the two, and remove stuff from the concept if it interferes with integral performance needs.


I like it, cool concept.

I think the team is the most important.

If the team decides that use of KB is the best option for that particular team, I'll go along with it. If it really hinders my playstyle, I'll bow out and look for another team. (Or run off and solo half the map like you mentioned )

That's been my position throughout the thread.


I agree with you. But that's why this thread exists. Powers with KB can't turn the KB off, and many teams find KB to be detrimental.

It's unfortunate, but that's the situation.


I'd have no problem bringing things to corners if your goal was to hurricane things senseless and lock them down in that corner.

That's smart use of KB, I have no issue with that.

It's when a player thinks Hurricane literally all the time or should be used whenever they feel they want to for their fun, putting their fun above other teammates and the team itself.

The bare truth of it is, there is really nothing as disruptive to other powersets or playestyles as giant AoE KB scatter.


Select another target?

If all of the mobs are being PBAoE KB scattered all over the place, it's frustrating to even get ahold of the target.

Just so you understand, this hinders more than melees. I dislike rampant use of PBAoE KB on any AoE focused ranged damage character I might be playing as well.

Why? Because it's disruptive to other playstyles. Blasting stuff til it's dead, or rounding it up and smashing it are not.



Waiting...for the Brute...BLASPHEMY!!!

Are you sure your Brute wasn't a tanker in their past life?


I really think this IS in fact what gives KB a bad name.

ST target KB is hardly an issue, unless I just wound up my biggest DPA ST hitter and missed because of it - which is just as obnoxious - get your own damn target!


In all seriousness, it's the AoE KB - the ultimate extreme end of KB - that causes the most frustration for entire teams.

Well said.



It's most effective to be surrounded by Spin's full allotment of targets and use it as often as it's available, and mixing in your other attacks when available - unless you're taking down a single hard target


Brute's control aggro. This is a fact.

Not all Brute's are built to handle a full team's aggro, but that doesn't mean Brute's don't control aggro. Through auras and attacks.

And it might do you well to relax a bit, this is a discussion.


I'm sorry to be rude, but I'm seeing a very clear pattern here.

You seem to have overall little regard for the team in both the circumstances of knockback, as well as how you play your brute.

I'm not saying you need to play as a tanker - but simply having no regard for what's happening to other teammates or where the next spawn is, indicated by the 2 quotes above, shows a considerable lack of regard for team play.


So it looks like we have wildly different playstyles. For me, the team comes first. I go along with what works best for the team I'm on.

I'm lucky that I'm on a static team with roughly the same pool of players, and most of us appreciate similar styles of play.



I'll address your last comment, and I think we'll just need to agree to disagree and call it a day - as I doubt either of us will change the other's viewpoint.


Generally, by L30 or 35, I still team with my brute's but I often end up solo as well. In those situations, I usually solo at 0x4 or 0x6 depending on what that particular Brute can handle.

So I do usually have enough foes for either PBAoE target caps, or mitigation Auras, etc.


I also think you're exaggerating, as I've never mentioned wanting the team to 'line up bags of xp' for me, and whining or otherwise going into a tirade when they don't.


Well if that' works for your team then great.

And if you're moving fast enough, I'm sure the brute will eventually have a full fury bar.

At the same time, if the Brute can handle the alpha strikes I'm not sure why you wouldn't want him to?

A Brute has lower defenses, lower resistances and lower hit points than a tanker - and without Fury actually does less damage than a tanker.


If you could slightly modify your strategy, allowing the Brute for fast and constant fury, it would improve the entire teams damage capabilities - no tto mention let the Brute player enjoy the full benefits of his ATs Inherent ability.

Imagine if team play could nullify Domination, Scourge or Assasination for example, but modifying tactics slightly would allow the classes that use those to use them for full effect.

Wouldn't the latter circumstance be preferable to the former?

I don't have a problem when the whole team is with the KB program. I go with what the team is capable of, or what works best for the team.

But when a character is designed to be surrounded by enemies and has just specifically gotten the mobs in a big pack, knocking them away from that character is just inconsiderate imo.

Of course not. Not using KB doesn't really create a detrimental effect on some other styles of play.



I'm in agreement with you. I've never said anything less in this thread, or in game.

Even in the most extreme farms I've been on or lead, I've always said "please control your KB" and not "No KB", because some powersets simply don't have an option of not using KB.



You're welcome to your opinion. But the fact is if you're not using every endurance points worth of spin when you let loose with it, you're not taking advantage of what is currently either the highest or one of the highest DPA PAoE's for Brutes in the game.


Assuming equal targets, it does higher DPA than both Fire Sword Circle AND Foot Stomp.

And you don't need to be specifically built for anything other than incoming attacks to take advantage of it.

Yes at 31 as a Brute, it will be difficult to play tank for large groups.

When your Brute is L50. And is fully IOd, and capable of handling the 10 targets Spin can hit - I can't imagine any reason you wouldn't want him to be using it to it's full effect.


That's great, that you seem to enjoy specifically working at cross purposes with your team and fellow players.

Slowing the Brute's killing means slowing down a part of the team's killing power.

Nothing can stop you from purposefully playing to the detriment of your team and fellow players. So good luck to you.

No that's not what I mean.

Maybe you're right. Maybe there are Brutes who run around the edges of the fray and attack single lone targets, while there's a big rumble happening.

I've yet to see it happen, but maybe it exists.

So let's talk for the majority of situations, in the majority of situations when a Brute/Tanker (or even the Mastermind for that matter) can handle the alpha, can handle the aggro and incoming damage (either on their own, or through the support of their team) - unrestricted KB scatter does nothing to help the team. In fact it's a hindrance.



I'm fine with that really.

I'm fine with people just saying they think KB is fun, and like watching stuff get flung around like ...well..ragdolls.

It's the long winded arguments trying to tell me how great KB can be for the group which I personally think are just grasping at straws.

Yeah, if you're on a team composed of nothing but squishes, all of whom have practically no method of protecting themselves then KB all over the place will be helpful.

But I'm focused on the teams that are even halfway balanced in composition, comprised of a number of different ATs filling in different roles.

Other than instances when the poop hits the fan, taking enemies someone else has just specifically organized into a great big pile for slaughter and knocking them in all directions is not helpful.



It doesn't happen very often.

But it does happen, in the situations I've been in, the teams quickly got on the player who basically wasn't going along with what the team was doing. It had less to do with the Brute in those circumstances.


I covered this I believe.

Mezzed is fine. Because the Brute has already taken the alpha hit. Mezzed means they are still in a tight circle around the brute for PBAoE, and the AoEs of the ranged players (KB affects these folks too), mezzed means they are all within reach of constant ST attacks for Fury. Mezzed means you don't have to run about willy nilly trying to get a hold of enemies.

And before we get back to the "W" key, I'm pretty sure the player using KB has one as well.

So I know you're having a bit of fun, but it has less to do with a brute's "precious fury" (which I'm going to steal and use from now on ) and has more to do with the team as a whole.


More Brutes means you just attack more mobs at once.



That's the general assumption yes.

In situations where the Brute can't handle the aggro, where the team can't handle the aggro - yes KB will be useful and probably welcome.


Performance is measured in seconds. (See: Scrapper forums )

I think we're also talking about different things at this point.

I'm not fussed with one off KB shots, where some single target gets knocked down a hallway on accident. Or on teams where they really really need the extra protection.

I'm not even concerned with single target KB, where 1 enemy out of 20-30 will be knocked away from the main fight (though the KB user really should find that elusive "w" key).

I'm talking about uncontrolled AoE scatter. Where it seems the player is consistently knocking things away from the team, and away from the ATs who are specifically designed to be surrounded by enemies.




If you're team has everything under control, and has been cutting down enemies like a scythe - is there really a reason to AoE scatter the mobs?

I've had this happen. It's extremely frustrating.

Cheers, thanks!

I still do this.

All. the. time.


In groups, or solo, I laugh like a loon at the PC when I've got tar patch down, and let loose with RoF & Fireball.


Thank god I don't use ventrilo for this game...

The weak taunt in RttC can definitely be compensated for by choosing Taunt, Taunt IOs, Gauntlet and choosing a primary with a fast recharging AoE/PBAoE. (Shout-out to Footstomp and Tremor )

It just requires a slightly more mobile, aggressive style of play (which is funny because one of the usual complaints on WPs play style is the set it and forget it toggles).

C'mon guys, if I can hold aggro on my /WP Brutes you guys can do it on your tankers!!

(Note: I've got a lowbie WP tanker in the works as well )


The lack of DDR will be rougher on the scrapper due to lower regen, lower HP and lower resistances.

I imagine a tanker, with much higher native resistances, HP and regen would suffer less trouble from cascading def failure. Obviously the amount you spend on IOs for the build will improve that performance even further.

Out of curiosity, where did you pull these numbers from?

If your addressing the regen portion of RttC, then I do agree with you.

I've already conceded (lost somewhere in the pages of this thread no doubt) that KB is mitigation - but it's extreme mitigation often in unneeded amounts by any halfway decent team.

The Brute won't need his mitigation tools when the mobs are knocked into the next room or down a hallway but that still doesn't address the fact that KB scatter has now deprived the Brute of their play style, which is exactly what several proponents of KB in this thread have been saying "No KB" does to them.



I think the problem is that KB (in particular the AoEs) is an extreme form of mitigation, and when uncontrolled or used recklessly provides just as much (if not more) hindrance as it does benefit in my opinion. This is unlike KD and KU, which provide less mitigation, but in more controlled doses.


Also, I'll mention it again (not directed at you clouded) that I've played with people who used KB indiscriminately, and I added notes to those players for future grouping (or non-grouping as it were) purposes.

I've also played with people who adjusted their play style realizing KB can have detrimental effects on team play when it's recklessly used - and in those instances KB is not really noticeable.



EDIT: I'll also add, that on the whole I've suffered less KB problem redside than I have blueside. That's my subjective experience of course, but I just thought I'd toss it into the discussion. I'm not really sure what to attribute it to.