Deus_Otiosus
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Posts
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Quote:It's less about "not allowing" the Tanker and more about enabling yourself to perform as close to optimal as possible.Originally Posted by Sarrate
Think about what you're saying here, for just a moment...
You're saying a Brute (who has less survivability than a Tanker) should not be allowing the Tanker (who has the best survivability) to get into the mob first (ie: take the alpha strike when the mobs are the most dangerous).
There is no substitute for generating Fury like incoming attacks.
Not every Brute, especially prior to L50 or pre-IOs, will be capable of this.
Of course that's never stopped most redside teams from forcing brutes into that role vs. generally harder content than is found on Blueside, but that's another discussion.
What I'm saying is that if the brute can survive the aggro they generate, a Tanker taunting off them is basically a hinderance to the Brute's performance - and that also cuts down on the teams damage dealing capabilities as well.Quote:Originally Posted by Sarrate
Further, you're saying that a Tanker should never Taunt off a Brute - but if a Brute takes the alpha strike, they'll have up to 17 mobs attacking them. Unless the spawn is 34 mobs or more, the Brute will have more aggro than the Tanker (since he shouldn't Taunt off the Brute).
In contrast, a Brute who survives that alpha and maintains aggro "enough" hasn't really hurt the teams performance.
I would also argue that if the team is only fighting groups of 17 mobs at once, they probably didn't need both a Tanker and a Brute (or two of either for that matter).
I thought keeping squishes safe was a Tanker's primary focus?Quote:Originally Posted by TankerThis boils down to the Tanker wasting their survivability so the Brute can fuel Fury and only using their aggro generation to keep squishies safe (a job Brutes can't lower themselves to).
I find it funny when Tankers (in game) seem to rankle at this idea, the selfless, squishy protector role vs. the alpha taking spotlight role.
Well, I would say much much fewer Brutes take taunt as compared to tankers.Quote:Originally Posted by Sarrate
I'm being a bit melodramatic above (and I can understand why a Brute wants to do those things), but there is a big problem there. One of my biggest pet peeves with Brutes (and Scrapper with taunt auras) is threat generation. They have the same threat mod, taunt mod (ie: duration), taunt mags (largely irrelevant), and single target Gauntlet while dealing more damage (damage is a large component of threat calculations). If a Brute wants aggro (ie: uses Taunt), there is not a damn thing a Tanker can do about it.
I'm not saying Tankers should just sneeze and hold aggro. I don't care if they have to work for it. But being 100% incapable of holding it is completely borked.
Partially because a high end Brute build is a bit tighter than a tanker build, because Brutes generate more than enough threat in most situations just through damage, and because they have some excellent choices in their PPPs.
I also think that a lot of brutes will be fine with Tankers taking aggro, especially on the road to 50.
I don't play that way myself, but I imagine some do.
Tankers aren't 100% incapable of holding aggro, but against a taunt focused Brute, yes they can have issues.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a huge deal.
Tankers have a level or resilience, and get such huge numbers out of defense and resistance powers that they can have a completely functional build for what is effectively chump change.
If you want to have an aggro holding, room clearing, monster Brute - you're looking at a much larger investment.
And even after a couple of billion invested in a brute, tankers are still more resilient.
I think the main issue for Tankers in the coming future of this game is the ability to leverage that resilience to it's maximum effect.
I think it will require something better than just giving them more taunt, or higher threat. -
Quote:Bill, any chance we could convince you adjust the results for halfway to damage cap and at the damage cap?Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It was what claws would have been with a direct port and not what brute claws ended up as. Brute Claws > Scrapper Claws.
Hell we could probably take up inf donations here on the forums and have them sent to your global.
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Quote:It's one thing if you're first in the mob, that's really a Brute's top priority to not allow that to happen.Originally Posted by JamesTheShadow
But seriously... if im the first in the mob, and I try my best to be, i try to keep the attention of all the pack (anyway while they are dancing under my footstomp all they see is ceiling-floor-ceiling-floor) so having played many brutes with good tankers in group i can see how fury would be harder to get.
Regardless, unless you go out of your way to literally taunt the exact same things the Brute is on, the Brute should be fine unless you're fighting a very tiny group.
But I have played with tankers, who actually try to taunt of the brute, which is pretty unproductive for the entire team.
When working together, a Tanker and Brute make an excellent combo. -
Quote:The only Tankers who do this are the crap ones.Originally Posted by Starflier
Why play a brute when us tankers are going to go out of our way to steal your aggro?
Smart tankers, who actually understand their role, will be making sure to taunt mobs off squishies. -
Quote:You're comparing a 7.5% to hit debuff and a single mag 5 fear after AS to the entire suite of debuffs a corr or the suite of controls a Dom can bring to the table on top of damage?Originally Posted by DMystic
Except for the 7.5% unresistable to-hit debuff from assassination.
A mag 5 fear is pretty solid control if you ask me
That's just silly.
True, and that's one of the better parts of a Stalker's role. At the same time, those types of mobs can be debuffed or held and effectively neutralized while the team carves it to pieces.Quote:Originally Posted by DMystic
until a longbow Nullifier or Malta Sapper show up, oh wait the stalker killed them before they could harm the team.
I actually agree myself, MMs tend to drive me nuts on teams due to congestion inside missions.Quote:Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'll take anyone and everyone ahead of a MM that I don't know. It's not that they can't be really good on teams, but the number of PuG MMs that I've encountered that I'd want to team with again is rather small.
But in general I think they do provide a alot of safety through pets, buffs/debuffs for PUG teams that are sub level 50 and many groups take MMs without issue.
I can frequently stand and broadcast LFT on my stalker for like 45+ minutes without getting a response. (I did it to test a few times) -
Quote:Originally Posted by Vitality
For the person who took offense to my previous post...I was just adding to what Umbral had said..."I would like to reduce the radius on Footstomp to boot, but, honestly, I doubt that would happen...
Except there is no reason to reduce Footstomp's radius.
It's the crown of the set.
Looking at Brute Primaries, Claws has the highest DPA PBAoE with Spin, it's also on a much faster recharge time, but suffers with a very small radius.
Fire Sword Circle has lower DPA than Spin, but higher than Footstomp. Same recharge as FS, smaller radius.
Footstomp has the largest radius, but lower DPA than both of those. It also has the highest end cost, and has added mitigation as a benefit.
This is vs. 2 other primaries, Claws and Fire Melee, that both have better single target attack chains* for less end cost and other AoE attacks built into their sets.
*Not discussing IO builds, or outside pool attacks here. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
While I might agree with you, there are some retarded corrs,controller,defender players.
So what would you rather have a stalker that can stay in hide and not die a lot, but dies once in a while.
Or a bad kin corr that doesn't buff anyone or themselves and just wants to blast and dies infinity billion times?Quote:Originally Posted by Zamuel
...and a bad MM or Brute gets everyone else killed while they can get away with not knowing what they're doing and surviving. Which is probably another thing concerning AT popularity--Dominators and Stalkers generally have to pay for sucking (though I'll admit that some stalkers can literally hide away from the action). Brutes and MMs have a huge margin of error for the player not actually being good.
You're missing the point.
Forming a PUG, you basically have to assume player skill is equal when you've never grouped with the other players before.
In that situation, Stalkers end up last on the list of desirable ATs. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Acemace
The two sets have virtual carbon copied ST damage, but Mace is slightly more effective in AoE then it's counterpart, as you can see in Starsman's handy charts.
However Cleave does considerably more damage then Shatter, and Clobber has higher End cost then Swoop which has a 70% chance for k/u, Whirling Axe has a 50% chance to k/d while Whirling Mace only has a 30% chance to disorient.
So aside from the ST/AoE damage math, to compare the two sets you have to consider that every Axe attack does knock up or down which is considerably more effective as damage mitigation and simply gives BA much better control then the equivalent disorients in Mace.
Even WA has a 20% higher chance of performing a superior type of mitigation compared to it's counterpart.
So when all factors are considered the differences between the sets are negligible, as both sets currently have fairly good attack speeds, some disorienting and knockUp/Down capabilities, an accuracy bonus, moderate to high endurance use, heavy smashing aoe, and strong ST damage.
Personally I would suggest a fire/mace Tank, I've gotten good milage from the pairing.
Thanks for all that, and the link.
Taking all of that into consideration, I'll go back to my original opinion and say that Crowd Control tips the scales heavily in Warmace's favor. -
Quote:Originally Posted by mauk2
(sigh)
We'll leave aside fire brutes and the "Holy crap" damage levels for the nonce.
Care to address the fact that brutes do 3 percent more damage (average) and yet still have significantly more hitpoints and much higher defense caps?
Shouldn't they do significantly less damage than scrappers(but more than tankers) in order to fit properly?
Also, what's the word on gloom for scraps? Or that Castle is making scrapper criticals boost DOT's for fire melee?
Or are people gonna keep whistling past the graveyard?
You're ability to continually fail is astounding. -
Quote:I was farming Warwolves before I was farming Bane Spider Executioners.Originally Posted by Postagulous
Yeah, I can see you're point [that I snipped out], but man, I hate them. I guess since I kinda dig CoT these days that BP have falled into the least favorite, most hated group...except for Warwolves when I depend on slows. But no one is going to farm Warwolves.
Like I said, I need to keep things interesting.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Finduilas
It's been a while since I've seen Starman's charts, but I thought they were about even for ST damage, with Axe pulling ahead with some levels of recharge. Could be misremembering, though.
I'll have to look for that chart, I was going by Bill Z's thread in the scrapper forums (using Brute numbers). -
Quote:Just looking at Brute primaries, nearly every single Brute primary has a faster recharging PBAoE, with the exception of Fire Melee.Originally Posted by Stratos
To answer the OP, imo SS would still be a strong contender for AOE, assuming Foot Stomp remained unchanged. One of the widest radius and shortest recharge AOEs in the game
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Quote:Originally Posted by Postagulous
Really? Is that a joke?
For a while I was farming Bane Spider Executioners and Cimerorans on my SS/WP Brute just to keep things interesting.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Finduilas
Are you talking about the numbers of targets for CC/Pendulum here? If so, could you direct me to wherever you saw information about it being changed?
Why Pendulum was still max 5 targets was discussed when CC was changed to 10 targets, and my impression from Castle at that time was that the difference wasn't an oversight, but was done deliberately as a way to differentiate the two sets and give WM more of an AoE focus.
Really?
I was under the impression that from a strict DPS comparison standpoint, WM pulled ahead vs. Single Targets a well.
For the OP: Even if we disregarded everything else - Crowd Control's base performance alone makes WM the better of the two IMO. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Ethical
So i decided i want to take soul on my SS/ElA so i can get gloom. I think i want to get gloom and DN but i run into a slight problem with IOs. Here is my question, would i be better off settling for 34 s/l def. and taking DN, or should i take tentecals and get to 37 def? I like the way the 37 looks on paper, but having a debuff toggle will come in handy against AVs and such. Thoughts, suggestions?
Neither 34% nor 37% will be doing enough for you if you want to solo AVs.
If you mean on teams, DN +34% will do more for you than 37% alone will - be that vs. AVs, packs of Cimerorans, or other trouble mobs.
It's also protection you can extend to your team mates. -
Quote:I want to mix Brutes and Doms and make Brutinators!Originally Posted by Frosticus
I think we need a fourth melee AT. A Scruter.
You're wrong.Quote:Originally Posted by mauk2
P.
Sure, people will still play what they want, but for how long? Once the fire/XXX brutes start proliferating, we're going to see another rush like we say with shield defense.
...or maybe I'm wrong. We will see.
For all those numbers, in all of my (extensive) redside play - I would say Fire Melee is one of the lesser encountered primaries.
I don't see that changing.
Quote:Originally Posted by Candlestick
Eh, thing is, the Scrappers Unique sets are not anywhere near as good as Brutes. Spines would be the only one that comes close.
Just imagine if they ported SS to scrappers, unchanged. It would pretty much dominate all other sets.
You forgot the Sword Sets there chief, which leaves...MA.
To which I'll toss out EM.
For all of the huffing and puffing about DPS comparisons, I'd say most players never even come close to building and maintaining a level of play to get to that elusive top end.
And even when you do, if you team, there will be situations that hinder Fury. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Psychoti
I was looking at rolling up a new Sonic/Cold Corr (I have a Cold/Sonic Defender that's been my favorite character for a very long time now) and looking at Frostworks. Hero-side I didn't take Frostworks for very long on my Defender because my regular crew that I ran with was typically near the hp cap anyway and I think the most anyone got out of it was ~400HP. That's not trivial but I didn't team with that guy much anyway.
Now I'm looking at the numbers for +Regen on Brutes and how they're affected by a raised HP cap. I'm wondering if any of you with high regen gain all that much health regenerated per second when hit with Frostworks.
Anyone with firsthand experience that can give me a clue on how effective it is at boosting hitpoints per second as well as the +HP boost?
The HP boost will be beneficial for any Brute except a perma-dull pain Invuln - but it's also a bit situational. Some brutes might need it (pre-IOs) some Brutes might not (full on IO builds).
That being said, it will be a very welcome buff if you plan on doing lots of SFs, especially the LRSF.
As for the regen, you might do some testing in mids using accolades to add HP to base and checking for how much regen that grants and then doing an estimate for frostworks (since you can't add 400 HP from accolades). -
Quote:That's still unfortunately all anecdotal.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
LOL
When I team with my stalker.....the boss dies before the minions and LTs do, so the concentrated fire never happens. Seriously, BU+AS - Placate - Midnight Grasp - Siphon Life = 90% of the time a dead boss. And it takes maybe 6 seconds.
And I was referring to any single character, not a full team. No single character in the game can kill a boss faster than a stalker. Even my brute, who is a beast, takes longer to kill them, even with a full fury bar.
How much faster?
How much more damage is the Stalker doing?
How much more damage vs. a Scrapper in the same situation?
What primaries are being compared here?
Nothing will change opinions like hard numbers. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Umbral
I've actually been working on a tweak to SS that would require making Rage into a toggle power (and a free one to boot). Rather than having Rage operate via +dam, I would have it work much like Swap Ammo, applying a global change to all SS attacks (and all of the other powers except for Taunt as well) has them deal another portion of damage (so that SS actually gains full benefits from any source of +dam) but counters this benefit by applying an irresistible -end effect for the base cost of that damage (i.e. the loss of end would be the exact same as you would experience if you were dealing that damage through another attack without any end redux in it). Along with this, I would reduce the +tohit by a fair deal, likely down to ~5% base (because I also plan suggesting the toggle variant have no endurance cost). Rage would still increase damage by a substantial degree and allow SS to fully benefit from +dam sources. By that same token, I would give the toggle a 30 second recharge time (so that you can't just bounce it on and off to deal just the right amount of damage).
While I don't have any numbers down at the moment (it's more of an idea I've got brewing in my head to give to Castle once GoRo hits and things settle down), it would allow Rage to act as a perma-capable power out of the box that allows you to deal a specific amount of damage more without allowing you to carry those benefits over to powers from outside the set. The downside, rather than not being able to attack for 10 seconds every cycle, would be an increase to the endurance cost of your SS powers (and only your SS powers) that's exactly in line with how much you're already paying for those powers to deal (i.e. if the tweaks I made increased base damage by 50%, the unenhanced end cost of the attack would go up by 50%; with 100% end redux, however, the end cost would be 100% higher than without Rage on).
Of course, coupled with this, I would also alter the base dam/rech/end of many of the attacks: Jab and Punch would be buffed to not be completely worthless (likely up to a 4-5 and 6-7 base recharge time) and Hurl would get buffed so that it would have a competitive DPA as well (likely up to a 12-15 sec recharge time). I probably wouldn't do much else to the powers in the set, other than possibly turning Hand Clap's KB into KU (and likely giving it an extra mag of stun or some kind of -tohit debuff while Rage is active, possibly give it some degree of smashing damage). I would like to reduce the radius on Footstomp to boot, but, honestly, I doubt that would happen, even if there was a good deal of justification for it (like the AoE area formula) simply because of player backlash (though I would hope the buff to the set elsewhere would make up for that).
I like most of these ideas actually, with a couple of points:
- I think it's fine that rage affects outside powers, BU, Soul Drain, Follow Up, AAO, etc - all affect outside powers and the damage they deal. 2 of them can be made perma as well as rage, and I think that should remain a distinct part of the power.
- How about something like a +5% to hit with a scaling +0.5% to hit bonus for each mob in range? Again I think there are other powers that grant solid +To Hit bonuses and I think that would be nice to keep on Rage as well.
)
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Quote:Honestly, those aspects simply aren't that important on most teams, which is why Stalkers often get passed over.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
There's nothing actually wrong with stalkers, people just seem to think that you have to be able to slaughter dozens of enemies at once or you suck. Stalkers are single target specialists, and excel at hit and fade, then hit again playstyles. Unless you're farming I'm sure you can find a place for that on your team.
I'm currently levelling an Elm/Nin Stalker, and if I didn't have Thunderstrike and LR to look forward to, I probably would have scrapped the character already.
That being said, I'd be very interested if you had any DPS figures for any stalker primaries benefiting from surrounding teammates for crits. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Novella
Okay I will offer my opinion.
First off, Night Widows DON'T NEED Mind Link. That is your first mistake. Yes Mind Link gives a super good buff to the player and their teammates, but you can build the character to not require the use of Mind Link.
On my Night Widow I have Mind Link, but I rarely use it because I am...
You rarely use it because you probably don't realize it's the superior power.
If you have enough recharge slotted + global recharge to where ML is perma - it grants more Defense to both you and your team, precious PSI resistance and +5% to hit (unslotted).
It does all that, for less endurance cost overall than TT: Maneuvers.
So you might want to reconsider before telling other people they are making a mistake.
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Quote:Fire/Dark teams well and solos well.Originally Posted by Ethical
I have not really got to play my fire/dark much, does it team well?
As to the OP, outside of possibly TA and trying to convince a group to work with traps instead of doing the normal thing - Corr secondaries run a pretty wide gamut of excellent choices depending on what you're looking to do.
Primaries, I think there is a good deal of solid choices there too but Fire is probably the best "all around" set. I'm also a fan of Sonic. -
Quote:You're correct, and I probably overstated the support focus.Originally Posted by FireWyvern
That's not what i'd call "support" secondary. It's a mix of self-defense and support. Just like dom's assault set are a mix of melee and ranged attacks, or an invuln is a mix of resistance and defense.
The fact that TT: M & ML increase your own survivability is what has m baffled on why anyone would want to justify skipping it.
It's fundamentally a very powerful, and endurance efficient way to protect yourself - it also happens to do the same for the rest of the team which is what makes it so amazing. -
Quote:I'm sorry but now you're just being purposefully obtuse.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'll ask again, since you don't seem to want to address it.
If I build a widow with TT:Maneuvers, Leadership:Maneuvers, Mind Link, and all the other teambuff powers you deem essential but no attacks, will I still be welcome on your team?
Attacks are obviously essential, but keep up the the good fallacy.
I know this might be news to you, since you're busy with your spreadsheets wondering if RttC is important or not, but you can actually take like 6 or 7 attacks, fully slot them AND manage to not only fit maneuvers and ML into your build, but a variety of other powers as well!
I know these things, because I have a widow that managed to pull off this amazing feat.
Did you know we get 24 powers? It's awesome!
Nice strawman attack.Quote:Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Is my widow's purpose to provide support to the team? Taking that to the extreme, I get every power I can that helps a team. Medicine pool and every leadership toggle I can. I keep stimulant up on everyone all the time. Now I can't sustain enough endurance or have time to attack. Forget whether I've taken the attacks or not. I built a character with your essential powers, I must be better than the guy who skipped TT:Maneuvers in favor of a build he made that can solo AVs.
Since it's based on nonsense, I'm just going to ignore it.
Let me know when you can come up with something that actually has substance. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Frogfather
but that it invalidates a characters team-contribution if he doesnt have it.
Can you contribute without it? Yes.
Can you contribute as much? Clearly not.
I'll ask again, since no one seems to want to build it or address it- what could be so important that out of 24 power choices you can't set 2 aside for TT: M & ML on a Widow Build?