Da_Captain

Thank you all for the advice. So far I have it down to just Survallence and Sleep Grenade.

Here is how I came to this decision from what was said

Body Armor - Not great resistance, but is active even when mezzed and costs no end. Here is another great point, it is a great spot for 6% defense to all (That is what made it a keeper).

Freeze Ray - I am a fan of Holds and doing damage (This is why my last three 50s have been permadoms)

LRM Rocket - I think I was going to take this one no matter what lol.

But any suggestions on what I should take between Survallence and Sleep Grenade are much appreciated.

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Seems rather unfair that you don't count Mind Link for Widows, yet the pets for Banes.

The pets are rather weak, unless you are fighting your level.

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Here I state...

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This is why I don't include IO's, I could include however that Widows take two more powers (Mind Link and Hasten) to get that 10% (15.6% enhanced) So that is five powers to get a total of 25% (unenhanced) and Banes use two to get 13.75% (unenhanced) sounds fair to me.

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I didn't even include the pets I compared the five powers needed for a Widows defense to the two powers a Bane gets. Showing the other people how they are using a pool power plus IOs and I just used what a Bane had, Since according to most I am doing nothing but giving Banes the advantage.

Actually even though they are 1 level below they still do decent damage to higher level enemies. With TT:M and L:M plus both pet defense IOs they have about 30% defense to all plus they do take some of the aggro off of you giving you 100% defense as you are not being attacked.

However, so I can be fair even with just TT:M, TT:L, and TT:A they gives the pets more than enough to make a difference. Really with all of that it is almost like the Pets are equal to or +1 of you level, in my new build I have included TT:L and TT:A.

I find it Funny how these same pets are great for Crabs.

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The pets are nice aggro soakers, but with only TT:M, and excluding power pools and IOs, they only have around 15-17% defense, along with 1070 HP at level 50 and with 10% resistance to lethal and smashing, 20% to energy, and 30% to psionic. The resistance to psionic is the same that Mind Link offers. And they are -1 to you, so a boss and his minions or LTs have a even greater chance of destroying them.

They have a base recharge of 15 minutes, and last four. With 3 recharge enhancements, it takes them down to 7 I think, less if you have MT. I'm not good with numbers, so correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am. That gives you 3 or so minutes to either wait for them, or go on ahead and risk it with your lower defense, rather poor resists, and slow and clunky animations.

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Good points but chances are if you are solo you won't be fighting too many bosses though, when you are fighting a boss most times I don't even need them as I come in with the Survallence --> BU--> Shatter --> Pulverize --> Placate --> Shatter --> CC (if they make it this far)

But as for regular groups there are like two different ways of dealing with it with the pets out.

Quick

Well you are in Hide so the first thing the foes see are the pets, go in take out the strongest target (most likely on a regular mish a lt) while the pets are soaking up the aggro from the minions. Now I fight +2 foe and the Disruptors are able to survive when using this method. Most times I am easily able to pick targets off one by one and don't forget these babies have a hold, it may be a 8 sec mag 3 hold but it is good enough to take up to a LT out of the fight. If they are able to coordinate (which isn't often, but not rare either) they can both stack and take a boss out the fight. But really you can just run through while they soak up and mitigate damage you can just pick off targets.

Moderately Slow method

This method isn't quick but it will gaurantee survivablitly. It also requires you taking Web Cacoon, which can be built up to be a great hold lasting 26 sec and recharging in 7. This method kinda turns CD into just a defense tool. First open up by taking the strongest target out with the Web Cacoon then pick off the weak targets then go back to the held target and take them out. In the another method you could pick off a weak target from hide, then WC on the strong target and then just pick off the rest of the weak targets providing a safe run for you and your pets. Again this is not meant to be quick but extremely safe.

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Seems rather unfair that you don't count Mind Link for Widows, yet the pets for Banes.

The pets are rather weak, unless you are fighting your level.

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Here I state...

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This is why I don't include IO's, I could include however that Widows take two more powers (Mind Link and Hasten) to get that 10% (15.6% enhanced) So that is five powers to get a total of 25% (unenhanced) and Banes use two to get 13.75% (unenhanced) sounds fair to me.

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I didn't even include the pets I compared the five powers needed for a Widows defense to the two powers a Bane gets. Showing the other people how they are using a pool power plus IOs and I just used what a Bane had, Since according to most I am doing nothing but giving Banes the advantage.

Actually even though they are 1 level below they still do decent damage to higher level enemies. With TT:M and L:M plus both pet defense IOs they have about 30% defense to all plus they do take some of the aggro off of you giving you 100% defense as you are not being attacked.

However, so I can be fair even with just TT:M, TT:L, and TT:A they gives the pets more than enough to make a difference. Really with all of that it is almost like the Pets are equal to or +1 of you level, in my new build I have included TT:L and TT:A.

I find it Funny how these same pets are great for Crabs.

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Here's what I think is wasted for a VEAT team -

Elude - when you pop this, your chances of getting hit will go from 5% down to... 5%
Vengeance - see above
Weave - see way above


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Agreed on Weave and Elude, but Vengeance also gives a +35% to hit and damage, an d for that I would highly recommend it.

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I wouldn't, Vengenace is a wasted power for a couple of reasons.

1.) The most important reason why this is a wasted power, it requires someone to die. I don't see that happening on this team.

2.) Tohit buff is wasted. If half of everyone takes TT:L and each Widow/Fort has Mind Link you probably will cap that too

3.) Damage buff is wasted. More than likely everyone will have TT:A and I know Crabs, Widows, and Huntsmen take the Leadership version. So total that would be 180% with your powers getting 95% from enhancements would give you 275% plus the default 100% = 375% you are now one small red away from the damage cap.

With all that into consideration I don't think one life is worth a small red, I know mine is worth 3 lol.

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Since CoV brought us new archtypes, maybe this will too.. What if we get a multiclass type. A true melee/blaster mix. A scrapper with ranged pistols say? a tanktroller?

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I don't think there is much more they can do, maybe a Blast/Defense set but a Control/Defense set seems pretty pointless because a mezzed enemy doesn't do any damage. If anything we will be seeing something brand new like MMs when CoV came out.

But I know off the top of my head a Buff/Debuff/Defense set and a Control/Defense set would be extremely hard to level.

Off the top of my head the could have like a Sniper AT that is ranged/defense, it could be kinda like a ranged Stalker lol. Just an idea.

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Mastermind = Blaster EPP? I dunno about them.

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Yeah I agree with most but this one lol. Maybe Ok for MMs, but Blasters with AoE immobs, Oppressive Gloom, and KO blow. I can already see the nerfs.

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if anything you'll be seeing tons of Trollers and Blasters redside replacing Corrs and Doms

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I don't know about that with the new Dom buffs you might be seeing Doms replace a good bit of the population.

Hmmm, will Defenders get Pistols? They don't have AR.

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If I start in Praetoria as a dominator...complete enough heroic Praetoria missions and take my side as a redeemed heroic Dominator...when I hit level 41, do I take APP or PPP?

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I think you get APP. The real question is what happens if you go evil again. Do you keep your APP, or do you have to respec into a Patron Pool?

This might lead to a lot of Villains going Hero to get access to the APPs, which might mean that the Devs will have to settle on some kind of unified "Epic" Power Pool system.

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How would a Dominator APP work? Would they chose from an existing pool or would their be some created pool?

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Now with 13.75% + CJ 2.5% + L:M 3.5% = 19.75% and I will let you do the enhancment math from there.

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Bane:
TT:M = 10%
Cloaking Device = 3.75%
Enhancements = * 1.55
Total: ~21%

Widow:
TT:M = 5%
Foresight = 7.5%
Mask Pressence = 2.5%
Enhancements = * 1.55
Total: ~23%

These are the numbers the two have. Pool powers not included, because BOTH of them can take pool powers, and the numbers are identical, so all that means is the numbers change but Widows are still ahead.

This doesn't include Mind Link which is another +15.5% DEF for Widows which even with SOs and no Hasten is 90/200 for uptime. Widows also have the option of Elude (not that I've ever needed it).

Even if you aren't going for sets, it's pretty trivial to get even level 25-30 DEF/RECH pieces to toss into ML, which gives it a 120s recharge (75% uptime). I did this on my Widow, who had those IOs and no other IOs until 50. They cost her almost nothing. Add Hasten and the uptime grows.

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I can understand an IO'ed Widow has perma Mind Link, however, this was said...

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But I'm under the impression that is you get a SOed NW, Crab, or Fort and test it against an SOed Bane, the three mentioned will generally come out on top, both in damage and overall survivability.

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This is why I don't include IO's, I could include however that Widows take two more powers (Mind Link and Hasten) to get that 10% (15.6% enhanced) So that is five powers to get a total of 25% (unenhanced) and Banes use two to get 13.75% (unenhanced) sounds fair to me.

So a Widows five powers to a Banes two. One would think that it would be fair to atleast give them two more defense powers to even the playing field. But even still five (technically four but one is required to get one perma) they should have higher defense, but that is just my thinking.

Edit: Meant to put five the first time instead of four. But I guess when something sounds good for the Widows that doesn't need to be addressed.

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If that is the case then you need to work on your Bane build, because on an SO level Widows have a total unsuppressed defense of 33.6 and Banes have an unsuppressed defense of 31.6 plus passive mez protection, 12% resist to all, and a 20% hp buff (one of the QoL issues was to let us enhance the hp don't see that as a buff though).

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My Bane build is fine thanks. I find it funny a guy that wrote a guide about this branch doesn't know the numbers on the powers being discussed. Tactical Training Maneuvers = 15.6% defense to all postions with 3 20% defense buff enhancements. Cloaking Device is 5.86% with the same enhancements. Now, in MIDs when you look at the totals it shows cloaking device fully active for a 11.7% defense buff. Which is where your numbers are wrong. Learn something new everyday.

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It is real funny how the person writing can't read, I said earlier

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For both the Widow and the Bane I included L:M and CJ if you wanted to go with just what they have available

Bane CD (suppressed) 3.75 and TT:M 10% = 13.75%
Widows have MP (suppressed) 2.5%, TT:M 5%, and Foresight 7.5% 15%

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Now with 13.75% + CJ 2.5% + L:M 3.5% = 19.75% and I will let you do the enhancment math from there.

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I'll admit most of my gripes with the Bane are pretty minor issues. I would have liked to see some of the powers arranged differently. The 20 something percent defense values before you add in power pools would be fine with me if the toys came a little earlier. I would have liked to see Web Cocoon earlier as I find I am big fan of using my Bane for offensive control as a defense. The pets are also very handy, but you have to wait until level 38 to unlock them (Vs how early mind link opens for widows. That's a huge defense advantage to them). In normal game play those QoL issues are pretty annoying. Shortening the Placate recharge, and adding defense debuff resistance would be great additions (put that resist on Widows as well!). So, Banes could use some buffs.

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QoL issues, minor buffs it doesn't matter what you call it. I do agree though a couple of things like adding some defense debuff resistance and adding healing enhancements to Bane Armor for more HP.

Yeah that is the big difference between a them and a /psi Dom, that drain psyche is priceless. lol

With 95% ED slotting on your pets for recharge 20% from mental training and looks like you have 23.25% global from sets, if you are rich enough you have four spaces for LotGs that is 30 more so you would have a total of 168.25% which would give them like a 335 sec recharge time and would only mean if you had out all 3 pets at the same time they would be back in a minute and a half. I know from experience that all three out at the same time plus your Bane abilities is OK (OverKill) lol but it is fun.

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Interesting statements.

But when things start to go bad, Widows start having better resist along with the great defense(unless its defense debuff) and they have an actual T9. Crabs have the Dullpain clone and more pets, and an aggro-taking nuke thing.

Sure they might not be up every spawn, but when bantha poodoo hits the fan, the Banes are at a disadvantage.

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I have to agree with you there Forts get a Nuke, Widows get GOD mode x2, and Crabs get Dull Pain. Funny thing is though, that Banes don't get the heal portion of Serum but we get the base HP value of it perma. True Banes don't get a real tier 9 power, but I haven't needed it and if there was like a GOD mode power I probably wouldn't take it.

My Widow doesn't have Elude and she does not miss it at all.

To eaches own, different strokes for different folks. After playing 3 of the 4 VEATs, I wouldn't put Widows that far ahead of Banes and I would put Crabs below Banes, when it comes to fighting an EB I would rather do it with a Blaster than Crab. Maybe it is the way I play or built mine, but solo they either die or take too long to kill. Never played a Fort but it is probably easier with them.

I have only looked at the power picks, but they look real nice. Although I would not worry too much about hasten and I would swap it out for more defense from either Combat jumping or perferably Leadership Manuvers to help out you and your pets.

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For the simple fact base wise with just SOs Reinforcements are up 73% of the time and Mind Link is up 30% of the time. Most times my Bane finishes a paper mish in less than 4 minutes.

3. Looking for other defense sets with passive mez protection to compare it to...looking...looking...now looking in all regular AT sets for passive mez protection...looking...looking...not found. Didn't mean to be an A$$ about it but how can you compare it when there is nothing to compare it to.

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Mind Link lasts 90 seconds, and assuming you took Mental Training, it recharges in 200 seconds. Which starts as soon as you hit the power, not after it finishes. How is less than 30 percent a simple fact?

What I'm comparing is not to other characters with passive mez protection, but to ANY form of mez protection. That it doesn't use any end is nice...but it's low mag isn't a good thing, and not something that can be ignored with hand-waving, especially before you get serious IO'ed out and get powers from outside the Bane primary and secondary. Fighting some Malta or Tsoo, anything with a melee mez with 22% melee defense and mag 4 mez protection---ouch. I have no idea why the devs set Bane mez protection so low.

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My mistake I surely didn't add in Mental training. That would bring it from 33 up to 45, so it is up just under half the time.

If you are a Bane soloing you really don't have an excuse to mezzed. You are fighting about three enemies at once. Coming out of hide you should be able to take out the first threat, then placate one and battle the other, then finish off your last opponent.

That was without pets with the pets out, they can hold an enemy and help you kill, I even let them take the aggro so I could go back in hide (just for fun sometimes). But you see how I don't even really need the defense.

But honestly if your only sources of defense are TT:M and CD then you will have issues.

I do agree mag 4 is a bit low.

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LRM rocket all use the rifle

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Now I really have to see that, the rocket comming out of the rifle sounds weird and neat.

And sorry all guess I should have gave my build, this is purely concept but I love it don't really want to start any Flames, but it is Fire/Dev/Mun.

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Wow thanks all for the advice, they all seem like great powers. Hold is great for taking someone out of the fight, AoE sleep great opener, Body Armor some passive resistance, survallence (I have on my Bane I already know), and the AoE Rocket.

Which one would be the least useful since I can only choose 4.

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That depends on your Primary and Secondary. If you are a Sonic/Energy then Sleep Grenade is pretty pointless.

If you are an Ice/* then Cryo Freeze won't do you much good.

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I could see the Sonic one since sleep doesn't stack, but with Ice/ wouldn't that give you three holds, is that too much for a Blaster?

Thank you

Wow thanks all for the advice, they all seem like great powers. Hold is great for taking someone out of the fight, AoE sleep great opener, Body Armor some passive resistance, survallence (I have on my Bane I already know), and the AoE Rocket.

Which one would be the least useful since I can only choose 4.

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I keep trying to figure out why you all keep calling Bane Spiders Melee toon, I haven't seen any melee sets with pets in the primary or secondary.

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And I'm trying to figure out why the author of a guide entitled "A guide to the Melee Bane" would ask this question.

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Nice comeback lol, but if I make a melee Blaster does that make it a melee toon still?

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If you don't take the Wolf powers, the majority of your best, most damaging powers, are melee attacks.

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No arguement.

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Lets try reading
Here is what I said

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Thanks -- I did read what you said. Please note that I said ML is still up most of the time on a basic build. When it is up, Widows have an extra +10% DEF and ToHit over Banes. Throw in Hasten and some IOs and it can be permaed. But it doesn't HAVE to be perma to be useful. It's still a big chunk of Widow survival even if you're using SOs. Please don't conveniently ignore powers because they don't fit your unusual criteria.

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Again Reinforcements have longer duration and a better ratio of up time even with them excluded Banes lose kill speed but still maintain better suvivablity.

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And if you want to only compare powers that are up all the time and ignore situational ones despite the benefits they may add, you'd have to ignore the fact that Banes have pets (like the previous poster noted). You'd also want to ignore Surveillance.

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I consider powers like Mind Link and Elude situational I don't find the pets situational but if we must exclude them lets exclude them, however, how does that make the the Crab look now?

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You play a Bane and don't want them buffed?

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There is a difference between want and need. I could see if they were horrible and unplayable yeah I would want them buffed. But I turned 24 with my Soldier for the First time and specced into a Bane (Something I have never played with before or didn't have any guide on or advise on at the time). I took him into a mish and straight clobbered 2 EBs without trying at all, no insperations, just my SO build at the time. I thought it was luck but I did it again.

I still kinda consider myself a novice at this game, but for me to just go in and take on two EB with the PToD without any trouble, I just don't see the AT I did that with needing a buff.

There are so many other things that need to be looked at more than this one. To me as far as needing a buff this AT is far from it, but if they get one, I won't be mad.

I keep trying to figure out why you all keep calling Bane Spiders Melee toon, I haven't seen any melee sets with pets in the primary or secondary.

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It seems a bit specious to omit Mind Link from the defense comparison because it isn't permanent, then include Pets in the damage comparison.

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Only because the Pets can be enhanced and their duration. As a Dom player I know first hand 90 secs is not that long. For the simple fact base wise with just SOs Reinforcements are up 73% of the time and Mind Link is up 30% of the time. Most times my Bane finishes a paper mish in less than 4 minutes.

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as long as my Widow times it so that Mind Link is up at the boss, it's at least as useful

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Before I perma'd Mind Link this was my philosophy, and it is a dang good one if must say so myself.

Edit

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A Bane's mez protection is passive...and the lowest of any melee character out there. Especially if you skip the Wolf Spider Armor as you advise.

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1. Lets not go with my advice and it is for IOing and I am going on SOs in my references

2. If you are going with my advice then you shouldn't be taking to many hits to get mezzed

3. Looking for other defense sets with passive mez protection to compare it to...looking...looking...now looking in all regular AT sets for passive mez protection...looking...looking...not found. Didn't mean to be an A$$ about it but how can you compare it when there is nothing to compare it to.

4. Thank you for reading the guide still need to update new build have like 60% melee, 58% range, and like 53% AoE and I think my pets are like 30% all.

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Banes defenitely should get some defense debuff resistance

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/signed

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Widows = Very High Melee Damage and High Defense
Crabs = Pets, High Ranged Damage, Debuffs, and High Resists.
Banes = High Melee, High Defense, Minor Resists, Pets, Debuffs, and One good range attack.

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This is inaccurate, though. Widows and Forts can soft cap pretty easily with Mind Link. In your comparison you didn't include Mind Link, when it's up most of the time if you include DEF/RECH IOs in it and/or use Hasten. With some minimal work it can be perma for Widows.

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Lets try reading
Here is what I said

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Did not include Mind Link as it is not perma with SO's nor did I include CT for either only increases one aspect of defense so either would still have two to worry about.

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Again with SOs Mind Link is not perma.

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And Banes are not "high defense," they're moderate. They have just as much as Crabs, but with cloak, which only adds a little. Suppressed they only have about 25% DEF (possibly less, I forget -- my Bane build also runs CJ which is +2.5%, so the actual number may be closer to 22%).

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For both the Widow and the Bane I included L:M and CJ if you wanted to go with just what they have available

Bane CD (suppressed) 3.75 and TT:M 10% = 13.75%
Widows have MP (suppressed) 2.5%, TT:M 5%, and Foresight 7.5% 15%

With one more power giving off defense, I would hope that theirs is high, but it isn't even that much higher. To offset that though they do get resists and a HP boost from their Armor. So I would say they are about even.

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The high damage part is a maybe, as Widows can attack much faster and for very good damage. The debuffs are pretty minimal, and you have to consider that Widow attacks all do -speed/-recharge, and Forts get mezzes.

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Sorry meant to add we did not do any tests with Forts sorry and that is why I have not included them.

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The pets I'll give you, but Crabs have more pets.

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Yes but we get 2/5 of there pets (the stronger of the five) plus dps wise Bane w/o pets > Crab w/o pets, so adding 3 weaker sources of damage adds more to their survivablity than it does their kill speed.

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Overall, they do less damage with less DEF than Widows, are less durable than any of them, and have less mez protection (Banes have mag 6, Widows/Forts have 10.4, Crabs have 14.4). Their damage is still pretty good and I'd definitely say they aren't at the bottom for that, and they have some decent utility powers, but they still lack in some key areas.

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They are not less durable than all of them. When you put them all together yeah they seem like an unfair fit but lets analyze.

Banes and Widows

No they do not have the damage or defense. Widows don't have perma resists, a hp boost, or pets. With those in consideration resists and hp boost help Bane take more damage to offset the minor Def difference between the two. The pets even moreso help offset that and add more damage.

Banes and Crabs

Crabs have more pets and more resistance. Well guess what they need all that. My Bane with just SOs was one shotting LTs, I could careless about taking damage when the person giving it is down before it can touch me. Also we get placate meaning that you can't touch me.

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If I was to tweak Banes any, I'd give them +mez protect (up to 10.4) and +DEF. They have more versatility and utility than your average Widow with things like Surveillance, pets, and Venom Grenade. All they need is the ability to stand up for as long.

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According to the 1 DEF = 2 RES Banes are good any more Defense or Resistance they would be OP. But there are some QoL issues that do need to be addressed.