DA_Sapphon_40k

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  1. You & the Cryptic crew seem to like ED while a good portion of your player base does not. Take this sugar coating & shove it.

    I don't want to play your artificially crippled version of the game.
  2. [ QUOTE ]
    With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

    Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So explain to me how a 13.33% reduction in endurance cost is going to help me with Resist Physical Damage?
    Hmm?
    Do you have a good explaination for that one? Or are you going to make auto powers start costing endurance too?
  3. Forgot to update the listing for the Legiones Astartes >> Paragon40K.
  4. Syn, change the title

    Edit: Just looking out for you.
    Do you have any sample builds?
  5. Thanks.

    Looks like Tiffany Seville has her Inv/Fire guide for issue 5 up now too. Take a look.
  6. You need to explain this better.

    Does the resistance stack? If so, why would I ever use a Defense Debuff against a SR scrapper?

    Does the resistance only function against attacks/effects that the armor defends against? If so, what about Radiation toggles?

    With this change in place, can you explain you vision for powers like Burst (Assault Rifle) or Neutrino Bolt (Rad)? They have a low defense debuff, but chaining together some hits help out a bit. Now these secondary effects will hardly contibute to an enemy that uses Stone/Ice aromor or SR. The only way to affect them in a fight that lasts longer that 10 seconds is to use a big debuff power like Irradiate.
  7. Earth Mastery works great. It gives me the control/mez component that Fire lacks.

    What is the objective of this build? It looks like you will never exemplar below 28 and will mainly herd. Not slotting a couple attacks with some Accuracy will make it hard for you to Punchvoke or take down a single enemy. If you are going up against AVs, you have no single target attacks worth mention (LBE is pretty ok damage). One of the tactics now is to herd a couple cronies around you while you attack the AV. If all you have are AoEs, your Invincibility effectiveness is going to drop fast.

    Why Slot Tough? Your SM/L is already at the cap. And why take it at 16? You should push this back to later in the build, leave it unslotted & take Weave. Otherwise, drop the whole Fighting pool completely.

    If you don't expect to fight long battles, it might be worth looking at slotting Unstoppable. Put one or two DamRes and the rest Recharges. Get yourself BuildUp and fight 3 minutes at a time.
  8. Ah, ok. That makes more sense now. Thanks
  9. [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I'm not sure why you challenge the percentage change? Say you do 100 points of damage. Old EF let you do 137.5. New EF lets you do 130. 137.5/130~1.05.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Now lets take an example that might actually occur in reality. Lets assume your base damage is 100 and you have 5 damage SOs, AM running, and you hit Aim. 100*(1+(.33*5)+.25+.66)=356. Remember that -res works on your total damage, not your base damage.

    356*1.375=489.5
    356*1.3=462.8

    Thats a drop of 26.7 points of damage. That is 26.7% of your base damage gone. If you are at the damage cap it's 30% of your base damage gone. Thats like hacking 1 damage SO off of every one of your powers. Don't try to pawn this off as some minor change.

    I think this does boil down to yet another PvP nerf that affects PvE. But give me a break, EF is a toggle. Dropping a toggle on a defender in PvP is as easy as taking candy from a baby. Defenders have zilch for status protection. The fact that EF is a toggle balances out the fact it has a higher effect.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What kind of new wave math are you doing? 489.5/462.8 = 1.057 which is still 5%.
  10. Powers & slots refactored for issue 5.

    This Inv/Fire tank build outlines the progression of power & slot choices from level 2 to 50 (without using a respec). The build will be split into three phases ([2-11], [12-21], [22-50]). All power choices and resistance percentages are based on Issue 5. At all stages, I slotted for long battles (situations like defending the Terra Volta Reactor) and for reduced down time when running missions.

    The Early build [2-11] is focused on two things >> building a foundation for resistances and landing hits (more accuracy translates into wasting less endurance to get the job done). This build can start tanking (and I mean tanking, not herding) at level six. Punchvoke & Taunt can keep your villains occupied.
    lvl 01: TI EndRed(01) EndRed(05) EndRed(05) DamRes(07)
    lvl 01: Scorch Acc(01)
    lvl 02: Fire Sword Acc(02) Acc(03) Dam(03)
    lvl 04: Dull Pain Rech(04) Rech(07)
    lvl 06: Taunt Taunt(06)
    lvl 08: Unyielding EndRed(08) EndRed(09) EndRed(09) DamRes(11) DamRes(11)
    lvl 10: Combat Jumping Jump(10)

    Your resistances will look like this at level 11:
    Smashing & Lethal: 37% = 30% + 1.5% (Temporary Invulnerability with 1 DamRes) + 5% + 0.5% (Unyielding with 2 DamRes)
    Energy, Negative Energy, Fire, Cold & Toxic: 11% = 10% + 1% (Unyielding with 2 DamRes)

    Your Endurance Recovery running Combat Jumping, Temporary Invulnerability and Unyielding non-stop looks something like this (in end per second):
    Endurance recovery: 1.15 = 1.67 (your natural recovery rate) - 0.08 (Combat jumping) - 0.22 {0.28 / [1 + 0.25 (TI with 3 EndRed)]} - 0.22 {0.28 / [1 + 0.25 (Unyielding with 3 EndRed)]}

    The tradeoff between endurance and damage resistance boils down to this: training enhancements are kinda weak. Training Damage Resistance enhancements confer an increase to the base resistance by five percent.



    The Midlife build [12-21] is the period where your damage output increases and Damage Resistance enhancements start meaning something.
    lvl 01: TI EndRed(01) EndRed(05) DamRes(05) DamRes(07) DamRes(21)
    lvl 01: Scorch Acc(01)
    lvl 02: Fire Sword Acc(02) Acc(03) Dam(03) Dam(13) Dam(15) EndRed(15)
    lvl 04: Dull Pain Rech(04) Rech(07) Rech(17) Rech(17)
    lvl 06: Taunt Taunt(06)
    lvl 08: Unyielding EndRed(08) EndRed(09) DamRes(09) DamRes(11) DamRes(11) DamRes(13)
    lvl 10: Combat Jumping Def(10)
    lvl 12: Hurdle Jump(12)
    lvl 14: Super Jump Jump(14)
    lvl 16: Health Heal(16)
    lvl 18: INV EndRed(18) Def(19) Def(19)
    lvl 20: Stamina EndRec(20) EndRec(21)

    Your resistances will look like the following from level 13 to 21 (provided you use Dual Origins and keep them fairly up to date):
    Smashing & Lethal: 46% = 5% + 2% (Unyielding with 4 DamRes) + 30% + 9% (TI with 3 DamRes)
    Energy, Negative Energy, Fire, Cold & Toxic: 14% = 10% + 4% (Unyielding with 4 DamRes)

    Your Endurance Recovery running all of your toggles non-stop at level 19 (for the sake of simplicity):
    End recovery: 0.93 = 1.67 (natural) - 0.08 (CJ) - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (TI with 2 EndRed)]} - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (UY with 2 EndRed)]} - 0.24 {0.28 / [1 + 0.16 (INV with 1 EndRed)]}
    This is the lull before the greatness that is Stamina.



    The Final build [22-50] is where your build develops your offensive output.
    lvl 01: TI EndRed(01) EndRed(05) EndRed(05) DamRes(07) DamRes(21) DamRes(43)
    lvl 01: Scorch Acc(01) Dam(46)
    lvl 02: Fire Sword Acc(02) Acc(03) Dam(03) Dam(13) Dam(15) EndRed(15)
    lvl 04: Dull Pain Rech(04) Rech(07) Rech(17) Heal(17) Heal(46) Heal(46)
    lvl 06: Taunt Taunt(06)
    lvl 08: Unyielding EndRed(08) DamRes(09) DamRes(09) DamRes(11) DamRes(11) DamRes(13)
    lvl 10: Combat Jumping Def(10)
    lvl 12: Hurdle Jump(12)
    lvl 14: Super Jump Jump(14)
    lvl 16: Health Heal(16)
    lvl 18: INV EndRed(18) Def(19) Def(19) ToHit(48)
    lvl 20: Stamina EndRec(20) EndRec(21) EndRec(23) EndRec(23) EndRec(25) EndRec(25)
    lvl 22: Combustion Dam(22) Dam(50)
    lvl 24: Resist Elements DamRes(24) DamRes(34) DamRes(34) DamRes(42) DamRes(42) DamRes(43)
    lvl 26: Tough Hide Def(26) Def(27) Def(27) Def(29) Def(29) Def(31)
    lvl 28: FSC Dam(28) Dam(31) Dam(31) Dam(33) Dam(33) Acc(33)
    lvl 30: Resist Energy DamRes(30) DamRes(34) DamRes(37) DamRes(40)
    DamRes(42) DamRes(43)
    lvl 32: Unstoppable DamRes(32)
    lvl 35: Incinerate Acc(35) Dam(36) Dam(36) Dam(36) Dam(37) Dam(37)
    lvl 38: GFS Acc(38) Dam(39) Dam(39) Dam(39) Dam(40) EndRed(40)
    lvl 41: Salt Crystals Acc(41) Acc(50) Rech(50)
    lvl 44: Fossilize Acc(44) Acc(45) Hold(45) Hold(45) Rech(48) Rech(48)
    lvl 47: Build Up ToHit(47)
    lvl 49: Resis Physical Damage DamRes(49)

    [color=white]Your resistances will look like the following at level 50 (even level Single Origin enh):
    Smashing & Lethal: 79% = 5% + 5% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 30 % + 30% (TI with 5 DamRes) + 7.5% + 1.5% (RPD with 1 DamRes)
    Energy & Negative Energy: 36.5% = 10% + 10% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 7.5% + 9% (Resist Energy with 6 DamRes)
    Fire & Cold: 36.5% = 10% + 10% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 7.5% + 9% (Resist Energy with 6 DamRes)
    Toxic: 20% = 10% + 10% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes)

    Your resistances will look like the following at level 50 (+3 Single Origin enh):
    Smashing & Lethal: 89.38% = 5% + 6.5% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 30 % + 39% (TI with 5 DamRes) + 7.5% + 1.38% (RPD with 1 DamRes)
    Energy & Negative Energy: 41.975% = 10% + 13% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 7.5% + 11.475% (Resist Energy with 6 DamRes)
    Fire & Cold: 41.975% = 10% + 13% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 7.5% + 11.475% (Resist Energy with 6 DamRes)
    Toxic: 23% = 10% + 13% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes)

    Your Endurance Recovery running all of your toggles non-stop:
    End recovery: 1.97 = 1.67 (natural) + 1.25 (Stamina) - 0.08 (CJ) - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (TI with 1 EndRed)]} - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (UY with 1 EndRed)]} - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (INV with 1 EndRed)]} - 0.24 {0.32 / [1 + 0.33 (Acrobatics with 1 EndRed)]}


    One hole in this build is the ability to do some kind of status effect to your opponent. I addressed this with the Epic/Ancillary power pool choices (Eath Mastery). Salt Crystals is almost a lock if you are running INV (which you will). Fossilize gives you a ranged component (think about locking down a Sapper).
    The Other hole is any kind of Psionic damage resistance or defense. Do the Striga Isle missions to the get Wedding Ring. Make Friends with Dark Defenders. Carry a lot of Lucks and Heals.


    Reference links:
    Smersh's Invuln/Fire Guide, Version 1.0 (Long)
    Epic Power Pools / Ancillary Power Pools
    Endurance Costs for Toggle Powers
    BuffyASummers Resistance & Defense numbers for I5

    If you have any questions, fire away.
  11. Let me repost this from the Max targets thread from the Test forum:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Set a maximum number of targets that can be affected by most offensive powers:
    Taunts (including Tanker inherent Taunt - 'PunchVoke') is set to 5.

    This will limit the amount of 'herding' done by players to a more reasonable and realistic level.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This new Issue Update on Defiance should give you a good chuckle.
    quoted for those that don't want to navigate the link:
    [ QUOTE ]
    You should also work with your Tanker to coordinate aggro. You may wish to enter a battle first to take a load of damage, then have a Tanker come in and taunt (or punch-voke) enemies off of you once you are in Defiance range. These tactics make battles a tad more complicated, but some groups will find that the added damage of the Blaster’s Defiance to be worth the effort.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The Cryptic team is advocating that a blaster initiate combat to get to the good defiance levels, then have a Tank Taunt 5 of the enemies off. Do they think people are stupid? What happens if the damage inflicted on the Blaster is DoT? What if there are more than 5 enemies that the Blaster pisses off (or worse spread out that a Taunt couldn't hit them all anyway)?

    Cryptic is pushing faulty strategies as a new ub3r method to the good expees.

    Defiance is an interesting concept, but how do you expect to be defiant if you are already dead? How can you be defiant when you are held or stunned? The only way to make this remotely useful in the later game is to team with Sonic DEBUFFers, not take Health (from the fitness line) and be more wreckless.

    >> I'll add that I agree with others that mentioned Scrapper & Blaster specials should get swapped. Blasters should get Criticals. Scrappers should get Defiance.
    >> Basically any kind of healing is counter-productive to the goals of this power. Regeneration Aura, not good. CoT healing nodes, not good. Health & any HP increasing accolade, not good. All of these effects are in fact good for the Blaster, but bad for utilizing the Defiance.
    >> I am disappointed that NCSoft/Cryptic have already made an official announcement about Defiance. It is still under debate (it would be pretty snobbish to ask for feedback & not listen to your player base).
    >> Give JackZodiak another chance to voice his opinions.
  12. Just realized that I have a lot of typos for enh slotting (many endred instead of damres in TI/UY). I'll post a corrected build.
  13. If you were so happy with the state of the game, why did you solicit feedback in the first place?
  14. This Inv/Fire tank build outlines the progression of power & slot choices from level 2 to 50 (without using a respec). The build will be split into three phases ([2-11], [12-21], [22-50]). All power choices and resistance percentages are based on Issue 3. At all stages, I slotted for long battles (situations like defending the Terra Volta Reactor) and for reduced down time when running missions.

    The Early build [2-11] is focused on two things >> building resistances and landing hits (more accuracy translates into wasting less endurance to get the job done). This build can start tanking (and I mean tanking, not herding) at level six. Punchvoke & Taunt can keep your villains occupied.
    lvl 01: TI EndRed(01) EndRed(05) EndRed(05) DamRes(07)
    lvl 01: Scorch Acc(01)
    lvl 02: Fire Sword Acc(02) Acc(03) Dam(03)
    lvl 04: Dull Pain Rech(04) Rech(07)
    lvl 06: Taunt Taunt(06)
    lvl 08: Unyielding EndRed(08) EndRed(09) EndRed(09) EndRed(11) EndRed[color=orange](11)
    lvl 10: Combat Jumping Def(10)

    Your resistances will look like this at level 11:
    Smashing & Lethal: 56.1% = 32.5% + 1.6% (Temporary Invulnerability with 1 DamRes) + 20% + 2% (Unyielding with 2 DamRes)
    Energy, Negative Energy, Fire, Cold & Toxic: 22% = 20% + 2% (Unyielding with 2 DamRes)

    Your Endurance Recovery running Combat Jumping, Temporary Invulnerability and Unyielding non-stop looks something like this (in end per second):
    Endurance recovery: 1.15 = 1.67 (your natural recovery rate) - 0.08 (Combat jumping) - 0.22 {0.28 / [1 + 0.25 (TI with 3 EndRed)]} - 0.22 {0.28 / [1 + 0.25 (Unyielding with 3 EndRed)]}

    The tradeoff between endurance and damage resistance boils down to this: training enhancements are kinda weak. Training Damage Resistance enhancements confer an increase to the base resistance by five percent. So, for every DamRes you put in Unyielding, you get an extra effective resistance of 1% (five percent of a 20% base), woo hoo!



    The Midlife build [12-21] is the period where your damage output increases and Invincibility affords you the ability to start herding.
    lvl 01: TI EndRed(01) EndRed(05) DamRes(05) DamRes(07)
    lvl 01: Scorch Acc(01)
    lvl 02: Fire Sword Acc(02) Acc(03) Dam(03) Dam(13) Dam(15) EndRed(15)
    lvl 04: Dull Pain Rech(04) Rech(07) Rech(17) Rech(17)
    lvl 06: Taunt Taunt(06)
    lvl 08: Unyielding EndRed(08) EndRed(09) DamRes(09) DamRes(11) DamRes(11) DamRes(13)
    lvl 10: Combat Jumping Def(10)
    lvl 12: Hurdle Jump(12)
    lvl 14: Super Jump Jump(14)
    lvl 16: Health Heal(16)
    lvl 18: INV EndRed(18) Def(19) ToHit(19)
    lvl 20: Stamina EndRec(20) EndRec(21) EndRec(21)

    Your resistances will look like the following from level 13 to 21 (provided you use Dual Origins and keep them fairly up to date):
    Smashing & Lethal: 67% = 20% + 8% (Unyielding with 4 DamRes) + 32.5 % + 6.5% (TI with 2 DamRes)
    Energy, Negative Energy, Fire, Cold & Toxic: 28% = 20% + 8% (Unyielding with 4 DamRes)

    Your Endurance Recovery running all of your toggles non-stop at level 19 (for the sake of simplicity):
    End recovery: 0.93 = 1.67 (natural) - 0.08 (CJ) - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (TI with 2 EndRed)]} - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (UY with 2 EndRed)]} - 0.24 {0.28 / [1 + 0.16 (INV with 1 EndRed)]}
    This is the lull before the greatness that is Stamina.



    The Final build [22-50] is where your build develops your offensive output.
    lvl 01: TI EndRed(01) EndRed(05) EndRed(05) DamRes(07)
    lvl 01: Scorch Acc(01)
    lvl 02: Fire Sword Acc(02) Acc(03) Dam(03) Dam(13) Dam(15) EndRed(15)
    lvl 04: Dull Pain Rech(04) Rech(07) Rech(17) Rech(17)
    lvl 06: Taunt Taunt(06)
    lvl 08: Unyielding EndRed(08) EndRed(09) EndRed(09) DamRes(11) DamRes(11) DamRes(13)
    lvl 10: Combat Jumping Def(10)
    lvl 12: Hurdle Jump(12)
    lvl 14: Super Jump Jump(14)
    lvl 16: Health Heal(16)
    lvl 18: INV EndRed(18) Def(19) ToHit(19) ToHit(42)
    lvl 20: Stamina EndRec(20) EndRec(21) EndRec(21) EndRec(23) EndRec(23) EndRec(25)
    lvl 22: Combustion Dam(22) Dam(25) Dam(50)
    lvl 24: Resist Elements DamRes(24) DamRes(34) DamRes(34) DamRes(42) DamRes(43) DamRes(48)
    lvl 26: Tough Def(26) Def(27) Def(27) Def(29) Def(29) Def(31)
    lvl 28: FSC Dam(28) Dam(31) Dam(31) Dam(33) Dam(33) Acc(33)
    lvl 30: Resist Energy DamRes(30) DamRes(34) DamRes(37) DamRes(40)
    DamRes(43) DamRes(43)
    lvl 32: Unstoppable DamRes(32)
    lvl 35: Incinerate Dam(35) Dam(36) Dam(36) Dam(36) Dam(37) Dam(37)
    lvl 38: GFS Acc(38) Dam(39) Dam(39) Dam(39) Dam(40) EndRed(40)
    lvl 41: Salt Crystals Acc(41) Acc(42) Sleep(46) Sleep(46) EndRed(46)
    lvl 44: Fossilize Acc(44) Acc(45) Hold(45) Hold(45) Range(48) Range(48)
    lvl 47: Air Superiority Acc(47) Acc(50) Dam(50)
    lvl 49: Acrobatics EndRed(49)

    Your resistances will look like the following at level 48 (provided you use Single Origins and keep them fairly up to date):
    Smashing & Lethal: 90% (92) = 20% + 20% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 32.5 % + 19.5% (TI with 3 DamRes)
    Energy & Negative Energy: 84% = 20% + 20% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 20% + 24% (Resist Energy with 6 DamRes)
    Fire & Cold: 84% = 20% + 20% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes) + 20% + 24% (Resist Energy with 6 DamRes)
    Toxic: 40% = 20% + 20% (Unyielding with 5 DamRes)

    Your Endurance Recovery running all of your toggles non-stop:
    End recovery: 1.97 = 1.67 (natural) + 1.25 (Stamina) - 0.08 (CJ) - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (TI with 1 EndRed)]} - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (UY with 1 EndRed)]} - 0.21 {0.28 / [1 + 0.33 (INV with 1 EndRed)]} - 0.24 {0.32 / [1 + 0.33 (Acrobatics with 1 EndRed)]}
    This is the lull before the greatness that is Stamina.


    The hole in this build is the ability to do some kind of status effect to your opponent. I addressed this with the Epic/Ancillary power pool choices (Eath Mastery) and Air Superiority. Salt Crystals is almost a lock if you are running INV (which you will). Fossilize gives you a ranged component (think about locking down a Sapper). Air Superiority allows you to juggle a target or knock them out of the air.
    In terms of PvP: Salt Crystals allows you to hose Force Field Defenders (and most Controllers if they aren't running Indomitable Will). Against players with mez protection, you will be a value to your team because you can help your controllers burn through their protection (sleep/hold). If you manage to knockout a player's toggles, you can further hose them with a hold/sleep.

    Reference links:
    Smersh's Invuln/Fire Guide, Version 1.0 (Long)
    Epic Power Pools / Ancillary Power Pools
    Endurance Costs for Toggle Powers

    If you have any questions, fire away.
  15. SG: Legiones Astartes / Imperium of Chaos
    site: Paragon40K

    Our two SGs (Legiones Astartes & Imperium of Chaos) feature loyal & chaos marines along the lines of what some know as warhammer40k. The two SGs support each other, but the intent of having the separate SGs is to get a rivalry going for when PvP arrives. We are especially looking forward to the implementation of SG bases (and raids on those bases). For those that are interested in the PCAL league, we are involved in that also.

    Keep in mind that we require all members to create new characters (see the codexes) with some uniform restrictions. We have been building a strong group of marines since June of last year and will continue to do so. If you have any questions about recruitment, contact TL. Emperor 40K ingame (or contact any 40K marine & they will point you to the correct people) or post an inquiry on our forums.
  16. Do we have a definitive view of what the "No Travel Powers" restriction affects?

    Does it only impact the power pool main travel powers (super speed/jump, flight, teleport)? Does it extend to encompass Hover, TP Friend, Hurdle, Swift? Does it apply to primaries like Quickness, Accelerate Metabolism or the innate Kheldian travel powers?

    Edit: Sprint/Power Slide/etc?
  17. I have a couple things to add if others can back it up.

    When you are pulling and do not want to aggro the entire group, try using low or no damage powers (Siphon power, transfusion, single target taunt). From my experience, the mob is much less likely to call attention to your presence if you do little or no damage.

    The duck-around-a-corner as soon as you fire tactic can also be accomplished by having a wall/gate/railing between you & the mob. Simply select the target, activate the power (it won't fire until you have line of sight) then jump up just high enough so your power will activate.

    When running door missions, you can sometimes encounter densely packed groups of mobs. If your team can handle a single group, try pulling out one of the fringe groups to your team to first thin out the room.

    Also, as a */Dev blaster, Trip Mine tends to aggro/pull mobs if they are never aware of your presence (i.e. you stealthed in, planted the TM and ducked around a corner out of LOS before it blows). If this happens, the mobs will aggro on the first thing visible to them (any teammate or if you go back into LOS).

    One more thing, to facillitate keeping your teammates behind cover while pulling, try this. Keep them updated on what you are doing. Ask if they are ready. Tell them you are going to pull, then do it. Also, after you whittle the group down to the point where you think pulling will get the entire group, tell them. This will satisfy their curiosity and bolster their confidence in your abilities. This is much more important in the early levels since a mistake can end up in many dirt naps.

    And another point. Only employ one puller in the group. Having two or more people pulling can mess the whole thing up.