Cyber_naut

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The proc used to fire off 100% of the time with just the cooldown phase stoppin it from being perma if you spammed the power it was in and did not miss the target

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How often does it fire now?

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You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.

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Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.

It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.

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At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.

What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.

And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?

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That can be answered with math:

Scrap AT mod: 62.562
Brute AT mod: 41.708
cremate: 1.64ds

Scrap Cremate: 102.602
Brute Cremate: 68.401

% buff needed for brute to equal scrap: 50% = 25% fury

When we add 95% enhancements:
Scrap Cremate: 200 .074
Brute Cremate: 133.381

But fury only affects base damage: Brute needs 48.751% fury to catch up.

And so on and so forth.

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So by your math, a brute needs 48% fury to do the same damage as a scrapper? Attaining/maintaining 48% fury is not a herculean task, so it seems relatively easy for a brute to do equal damage to a scrapper while having clearly superior survivability. Anything over that, and the brute does more damage and has better survivability. And on teams, the brute brings the advantage of aggro management.

When you have two very similar at's, and it's relatively easy for one at to do everything better than the other at, that's an imbalance imo. And I've said this about fifty times, but I'll say it again - I don't think it's a massive game-breaking imbalance, but it is an imbalance none the less.

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i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.

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This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.

And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.


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as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.

/2inf

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Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?

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yes yes once you have the fury built it stays.

or does it?

if you are a build that has endless endurance and health - damned straight. this is why for the majority of your gaming, /wp brutes are insane.

but i think people are forgetting brutes dont get conserve power. MOST brute builds can starve for end until they are io'd out. therefore any time spent waiting for that end bar to tick is fury lost. and it's a LOT of fury.

and lets not even get started on cave missions.

no - there is variability there. before 40 and before you have yoru defense and offense sorted out AND have yoru recovery/regen sorted out the variability is pretty huge.

only people who havent actually played a brute other than /wp or dm say otherwise.

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Even at low fury, when the scrapper is out-damaging the brute, the brute retains better survivability and aggro control abilities, so it evens out. But when brutes get to high fury, they do EVERYTHING better than a scrapper. When does a scrapper do everything better than a brute? That's the disparity.

At low fury brutes and scrappers are on par, with scrappers being the better damage dealers and brutes being the better damage absorbers, but at high fury it's out of whack, because the brute does everything better.

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see, this is how i can tell you dont actually have a brute. or if you do, it's like level 5

scrappers arent expected to take the alpha. brutes are.

scrappers arent expected to wade into groups of defense and resist debuffing mobs (please go fight 4-5 longbow nullifiers and spec-ops. oooo! no regen, and 0 resistance ftw!)...brutes are.

scrappers arent expected to tank the freedom phalanx 4 at a time. brutes are.

you can have brute hp when brutes get parry and divine avalanche.

you want to talk survivability? a level 8 bs or katana/shield is soft capped to melee and lethal dmg without anything enhanced in any form. get off it.

scrappers solo av's just fine. if they want, scrappers can solo spawns of tough mobs just fine. you can have brute hp when brutes get the same values as scrappers on soul drain and against all odds.

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First of all, I have 2 level 50 brutes, a SS/Inv on champion and a EM/Elec on Infiniti. So at least you've been consistently wrong in your assumptions and analysis, lol.

Secondly, from your post, you actually support my assertion that brutes have advantages over scrappers, by stating that they are expected to do more than a scrapper because they CAN DO MORE THAN A SCRAPPER. Because they have better survivability and can attain better damage dealing ability. They can do everything a scrapper can do and MORE - and that is not just at the high end, thats from lvls 1-50 on a comparative build.

Go for the hat trick of wrong and guess my eye color now.

Self professed noob + scrapper = self rez... lol. My first toon was a regen and I think I probably set records for the self rez use with that toon. Plus burn is tricky to use effectively. If you play on a team regularly with holds, it can be a great damage dealer though, and in other circumstances a great way to get baddies off of you.

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many lower mobs are weak to lethal if i remember correctly, this reverses late game and it becomes the most widely resisted damage type.

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True, but then you slot achilles heel in GC (and if you're rich, the pvp one in FS) and go to town, or just gut them with SD & GD while enjoying capped lethal/melee defense. Katana is teh sex... lol.

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I Just bought 2 Achilles for 1 mil a piece, one level 12 and one 13. I then relaized with Hasten GC fires off every 2 seconds so having it in FS also seems pointless. ( I know it doesn't stack, for extending the proc ).

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The AH proc is usefull vs big targets like ebs and av's (actually it's very useful...). Against everything else like minions and lt's, not so much. I wouldn't bother with them until later levels (if you're gonna solo av's, I'd consider an AH proc in GC almost a 'must have'). And yeah, you'll be spamming gc, so if and when you do slot the proc, you really only need it in gc (but the PVP proc does stack with the AH proc, from what I've heard...).

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I had that on Focus, Shocwave and ET prior to the fix...
Might still be ok on Shockwave or ET...
But I wouldn't put it on Ripper.

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fix?...

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many lower mobs are weak to lethal if i remember correctly, this reverses late game and it becomes the most widely resisted damage type.

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True, but then you slot achilles heel in GC (and if you're rich, the pvp one in FS) and go to town, or just gut them with SD & GD while enjoying capped lethal/melee defense. Katana is teh sex... lol.

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Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.

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I'm sorry, was I not suppose to bring valid arguments to the table?


Whoops, my bad, didn't wanna make you just sound like a whiner...

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No, please DO bring valid arguments to the table, lol. Or go with the name calling, whatever works for you little fella!

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You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.

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Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.

It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.

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At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.

What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.

And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?

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you dont actually have a brute. i can tell.

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LOL, oh you can tell, huh? But your reply to my argument is very telling...

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i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.

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This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.

And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.


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as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.

/2inf

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Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?

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yes yes once you have the fury built it stays.

or does it?

if you are a build that has endless endurance and health - damned straight. this is why for the majority of your gaming, /wp brutes are insane.

but i think people are forgetting brutes dont get conserve power. MOST brute builds can starve for end until they are io'd out. therefore any time spent waiting for that end bar to tick is fury lost. and it's a LOT of fury.

and lets not even get started on cave missions.

no - there is variability there. before 40 and before you have yoru defense and offense sorted out AND have yoru recovery/regen sorted out the variability is pretty huge.

only people who havent actually played a brute other than /wp or dm say otherwise.

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Even at low fury, when the scrapper is out-damaging the brute, the brute retains better survivability and aggro control abilities, so it evens out. But when brutes get to high fury, they do EVERYTHING better than a scrapper. When does a scrapper do everything better than a brute? That's the disparity.

At low fury brutes and scrappers are on par, with scrappers being the better damage dealers and brutes being the better damage absorbers, but at high fury it's out of whack, because the brute does everything better.

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You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.

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I'm not ignoring them. You, and those who are trying to point out that Brutes are somehow so "omigawd OP" are the one's ignoring them. I have, many times now, pointed out the reasons as to why these two classes are balanced between eachother, and why the extreme variableness of Fury, allows it to be balanced as such. Who says that a Scrapper is suppose to outdamage a Brute anyways? I've never heard that. At the same time however, a Brute definately does not "always" outdamage a Scrapper at all. Yes, at certain peak times a Brute can (by .094%...) outdamage a Scrapper, but only at those peak times.


However, you and a couple others, continue to refuse to believe that Fury is and can be a variable nightmare by which you cannot depend to be at 75% or higher at all times during any given mission, especially while teamed. Solo, with the correct build and good IO slotting those fury levels can be attainable, just not as easily (if at all) on your [u]average pickup team[u]. Meanwhile, pickup team or not, a Scrapper will start out at a MUCH higher damage level than Brutes and continue that level of damage regardless of whether the team needs a breather, absorbes the alpha, or not.


Let me put it into a little perspective here, since most of you seem to keep egging on the [u]"well if your team will allow you to 'take' the full alpha of each spawn rather than controlling/absorbing it themselves, then you'll be able to attain those high fury levels throughout most the mission."[u] <----This is one of the big defensive possitions of certain people right now.


So...what you're saying...is that if said Brute...wants to attain his "peak" levels of Fury generation in order to beat a Scrapper by 0.94% damage...he'll be forced to tell the Dominators to "not" cast that AoE hold, as well as tell other Brutes to "not" jump in first, as well as tell Stalkers to "not" AS due to their control fear...? Am I hearing this right? Ok, so that 12% survivability bonus IS going to come in handy, correct? Since outside of buffs/healing you're taking on the FULL brunt of each spawn head on in order to keep up with your Scrapper brethren in damage, and beat thier damage by that huge 0.94% ....right?


Meanwhile....back at the batcave...


A Scrapper, who admittedly has roughly 12% less survivability than a Brute...could care less if that Controller lays down an AoE Hold...he could care less if that Tank rushes in and uses gauntlet and attracts all the aggro...he could care less if his other Scrapper buddy rushes in first...he could care less if a Blaster 1-shot Nukes half the spawn....why? Because regardless of how much aggro he is generating his damage will be awesome...[u]right out the gate[u]. He doesn't have the need to have an entire 8-man spawn worth of mobs alpha him to shoot his damage up. He doesn't have the need to have them continue to attack him to keep his damage pegged...he just flips out and kills things, end of story.


Now....do we need to dive in to just how much damage mitigation all of those AoE Controller mez's are producing for the Scrapper? Do we need to delve in to how much damage mitigation is being provided by the Tanker using gauntlet+taunt? What about the Blaster that 1-shot nukes all the minions? I believe that equals 100% mitigation...right? Dead = 100% mitigation, correct?


Why yes. Yes I am.


Can we say that a held mob that is unable to fight back is better than 12% more survivability?


Yes.


Can we say that a guantlet taunted mob that isn't even attacking you at all, thus contributing next to zero damage on you is better than 12% more survivability?


Yes.


Can we also say, that an entire spawn that is almost entirely 1-shotted is contributing more damage mitigation than a mere 12% survivability boost?


Again. Yes.


Now, so you don't forget! Remember that a Brute, if he want's to stay at his highest possible damage stats (remember that awesome 0.94% damage advantage they have over Scrapperst that you're crying about?) would ask a Dominator to not aoe control the mob. He'd ask other Brutes/Tankers to not run in first (or at all...really). He'd ask that Blaster to please not 1-shot nuke the next spawn. Why? Because by doing so, they may be providing great damage mitigation for the Brute and the team, but at the same time they are dropping the Brute's damage substantially, in that he will not be able to generate the appropriate fury levels to in any way out pace a Scrapper in damage. Oh, and a little heads up, most Brutes will [u]not[u] ask this of most teams and thus will almost never reach this "full potential" of fury which everyone here is dreaming about.


So in reality, he will need that meager 12% survivability boost in order to survive in his lifestyle. If the controller/dominator is not holding, or the other Brute/Tanker is not attacking, or the mobs aren't outright killed, he'll be taking all of the damage on his own. And for what? A .094% damage advantage over a Scrapper?


Now, can any of this...be ANY more clear for those that just can't seem to grasp what I'm pointing out here? I mean seriously, do I need to paint a picture?


I've even given my own recent personal experiences with this earlier when in Co-Op zones fighting beside Heroes while on my Brutes. Heck, I've even done the same comparisons while on my Scrappers fighting alonside Brutes, and what I've typed is just the exact [u]in-game[u] experience that every Brute goes through. But sure, continue to disregard any of these pertinent and important factors as you have and also continue to believe that a Brute hits 75% or higher fury within 1 attack and it just freezes there and never drops throughout the entire mission


But hey, if that's what you wanna believe, feel free, it's wrong, but feel free.

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Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.

And you claim fury is hard to generate, yet you're at 100% and we're just forum arguing...

Bottom line is; brutes ALWAYS have better survivability and aggro control, and CAN ATTAIN better damage dealing output. That is clearly a disparity in favor of brutes. Scrappers sometimes do better damage and ALWAYS have inferior survivability and aggro control. And nobody is claiming brutes are overpowered as you have claimed, only that there is a disparity between scrappers and brutes. And I don't think anyone claimed the gap was huge or game breaking either, quite the opposite.

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You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.

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Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.

It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.

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At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.

What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.

And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?

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i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.

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This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.

And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.


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as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.

/2inf

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Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?

DM/SD only distances itself with a ton of suck-dolls surrounding you. After that the field is a lot more even, so you can just pick for concept.

For AV's, not getting hit is the key, so you need secondaries that you can build up for defense - that leaves SD, SR, Inv & WP being the top picks, unless you go swords for primary, because of DA/parry, in which case regen has been shown to work (I haven't seen much in regards to FA, but if it can be built to withstand av dmg, FE would be a nice boost to your offense). You could try to build for def on a dark armor, but it will be pretty expensive and you'll have to sacrifice a lot to cap your defenses.

For primaries, even without a fully charged SD, it's one of the top single target dmg'er, and gives you a heal/attack, which is extra nice if your secondary has none, and does lightly resisted neg en dmg. I think I've seen every single primary (except spines) shown to be capable of doing similar long-haul dmg when properly slotted up, so pick for concept and build it up.

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My DM/SD Brute is nasty, and in a recent ITF, outperformed a bunch of better IO'ed SS/WP Brutes. The high defense + high resistance + self heal of SD combined with the surprisingly large offense boost from AAO/SCharge makes DM/SD a vitriolic combo.

Especially at full fury.

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Youre Lying.

To yourself and others.

DM is a beautiful AV soloing tool, but the reason I cant bring myself to play it is because I dont solo the entire game and prefer to feel like Im contributing more to the team than acting like a Stalker without AS.

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Actually I think he's just confusing the issue because he's got shield charge, which at lvl 50 and io'd up, really fills DM's aoe/team contribution hole, rather nicely.

But you're spot on in your assessment that DM pales in comparison to many of its competitors on teams due to its mediocre aoe abilities, which is exactly why it SHOULD be a top single target set, and why it SHOULD be superior in regards to AV soloing and the like.

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So here's the real question:

Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?

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I think we can ignore it once scrapper health, def/res caps, and aggro mitigation is within 3% of brutes.

I love both of these AT's but it's pretty obvious that one of them has a clear advantage over the other, lol.

Good job on the calculations bill.

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It's actually only a 0.94% damage difference...

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Brutes now do .94% more damage than scrappers on average.

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If you wanna argue that "somehow" that is too much, then I truely have to just "LOL@U" because wow. And honestly, you really have not brought anything to the table to convince me (or anyone else) that Brute damage/survivability is SO >>>> than Scrapper damage/survivability in general play. So until you can bring some convincing arguments to the table, I'm just not buying it.


I think Scrappers and Brutes are both balanced perfectly together. Brutes get a mere 12% survivability increase in order to survive a tad longer to "generate" their Fury in a battle (Scrappers start at full) and are tasked/burdened with "maintaining" that high Fury generation the "entire" mission in order to achieve a whopping 0.94% net damage over Scrappers. Basically, they will be forced to [u]work their rears off[u] to "keep" that entire 0.94% damage edge over Scrappers throughout the mission, and let's face it...not only is this normally not easy to do with your average pickup team (most love to take breaks between spawns, absorbe alphas for you with controls, etc)...but we're also talking about a LESS than 1% damage difference...0.94%. I mean...it wouldn't even show up in damage figures. Less than 1% difference, for a "huge" amount of work in order to reach that "whopping" potential. Whearas a Scrapper can get it at the start of a fight all the way to the end and doesn't have to keep moving or work for it as hard. So yea...I think a little 12% increase in Brute survivability is a perfectly balanced trade-off.


0.94% man. 0.94%.


If that is really troubling you, then you have some serious envy problems that maybe you should speak to a councelor about...

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LOL, envy problems? This isn't about 'my at is better than your at', well, at least for me. I have several lvl 50 brutes and am currently leveling one. I enjoy both at's equally. I'm just making an honest observation in terms of comparative performance.

You seem to think that a 12% survivability edge for brutes (your number) AND a damage advantage (regardless of how small), again for brutes, is parity. I'd suggest you look up parity in the dictionary.

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My DM/SD Brute is nasty, and in a recent ITF, outperformed a bunch of better IO'ed SS/WP Brutes. The high defense + high resistance + self heal of SD combined with the surprisingly large offense boost from AAO/SCharge makes DM/SD a vitriolic combo.

Especially at full fury.

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That's basically shield charge vs footstomp. Try DM/WP vs SS/WP (with a well-prepped footstomp) and let me know how the primaries match up on a team.

But there is no question DM/SD is a top combo in this game regardless of at. They mesh really well, and the glory that is shield charge makes up for DM's aoe weakness, helping DM tremendously on teams.

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You think? I don't have that impression. I think it pays for all that single target goodness and survivability by not having much AoE. I think it's just for us min/max big game hunters that it can blow other primaries away, and it still depends on the secondary. Even for big game hunting, other primaries can do most of what Dark Melee can do because single target DPS isn't the typical sticking point, and Aid Self can usually substitute just fine for Siphon Life, even if I hate Aid Self.

Still, if I were rating the top three primaries for cost no object big game hunting, they'd be Katana, Broad Sword and Dark Melee, not necessarily in that order (depends on the secondary).

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The problem with people calling DM 'over-powered' is we're so focused on the 'big game hunting', lol. I think many of us forget a lot of the game is played on teams where aoe rules and where dm does not shine in comparison to some of the aoe beasts. Spines, for example, which many would consider 'gimp' for av soloing and what not will make most builds weep with envy on a team, especially a dm. Then some will overestimate DM because it pairs well with a specific secondary, like shields, and on a lvl 50 build that cost 2 billion influence. They tend to forget the 1-50 ride too. Leveling up a dm/sr or dm/sd is a pain in the [censored] compared to some combos.

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The disparity comes from assuming a brute can constantly manage and uphold 90% fury at all times. If that were the case, then yes, absolutely, brutes and scrappers would need some readjusting in comparison to one another. If Billz is legitimately constantly at that high a fury rate, however, it tells me two things:

1. It's no surprise he's unimpressed with fire armour's mitigation
2. He's a very, very skilled player, who is very, very good at managing resources

To actually get that level of performance would mandate a great deal of skill. I don't see a problem with letting very skilled players squeeze a skill-based mechanic for a lot of effect. I also don't think that it's a reasonable projection, but if Billz is confident he can do it, I'm not about to call him a liar over it.

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First of all the comparison was set for 75%. And the comparison is for damage over time, and in a long drawn out battle, if your fury isn't at or over 75%, then you're doing something very, very wrong. It doesn't take any skill at all, just click on your attacks and get attacked by the bad guys, no need for any advanced degrees, lol.

Again, I don't see how anyone can claim there isn't a disparity here - (when both ats are using similar sets and on avg) a brute has the ability to deal more damage and take more damage than a scrapper in the best of conditions, while sometimes doing less damage but still being able to survive more damage in the worst case situations. That's flat out uneven and in the brutes favor, we can argue the degree, but there is definitely a disparity.

And the culprit for this disparity is fury, which is a stronger mechanic than scrappers critical strikes. Granted some players don't like the mechanic, but when used (even by accident), it gives brutes an edge over scrappers because it allows them in some situations to both outdamage and outsurvive the scrapper. Even in the hands of a novice, fury will boost a brutes dmg into the scrapper neighborhood, while brutes still have the survivability edge, which means brutes have the advantage in that type of situation as well. If brutes always have a survivability edge, then why should they not always have the damage dealing inferiority? And on teams, a brutes aggro managing ability gives them an additional edge over scrappers. That's disparity in the brutes favor, it's not game-breaking, but it's there.

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In light of all this, Billz, are you planning on reconsidering [ QUOTE ]
Energy Melee's mitigation and aoe potential are too low.

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I don't know. Its aoe potential still blows. Maybe if whirling hands did knockdown it would even things up a bit on the mitigation front. Some of the other sets showing high numbers in this comparison also deal out rather hellacious aoe damage.

I'd probably relent enough to state that EM is fine for soloing, but every time I've fired off EM/TF and sat watching the animation while someone else runs up and kills my target before the animation finishes, I snap a little more.

But we could probably write that off as "EM's flavor."

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Yeah, turd-flavor, lol.

And nobody has argued that em is not at the top in single target damage still, even after the crippling nerfs, the problem is that it's at the top with several other sets in terms of single target damage, while it sits alone in the basement in regards to aoe ability and damage mitigation, not to mention the single target goodness is crapped upon with the problem you mentioned, the set moves with the speed of a mentally handicapped tree sloth.

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Shockwave sounds like a winner for SR and Regen...my plan is to skip it on my Claws/Dark because I want to keep everything in my damage/mez/heal auras. Only really have room for 2 of three between Spin/Evis./Shockwave.

Sensible or foolish?

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After you kb the 10 or so baddies, unless they're dead you're going to chase after them, so the idea you need to keep them inside of DA's auras is really less of an issue than you're making it out to be. Again, there's a learning curve to using shockwave, but you can keep the targets bunched together once you get the hang of it.

But DA is the secondary that can most reasonably skip shockwave, imo, but by no means does it mean shockwave is unusable or even a detriment to DA. If you usually play on large teams, I'd still recommend shockwave over eviscerate*.

*Though I haven't played claws since the melee range increase, if you can reliably get 4-5 baddies with it now, then with DA I might take evis over shock. If not, then you can reliably hit 8-10 baddies with shock, and put them on their butts, which means dmg mitigation for you and everyone on your team.

I can't believe you guys would think that an issue called anniversary would come out on or near the games anniversary, lol. What were you thinking?! (/sarcasm)

Breaking pvp and nerfing architect takes a lot of time.

DM/Inv would be great for what you're looking to do. First of all, you'll be fighting lots of enemies which means saturated soul drain and invinc. If you have the vet sands of mu power you can pretty much perma shadow maul. And DM's heal makes you even more sturdy. And you'll be stacking to-hit debuffs on the baddies to add to your inv def.

Fire/Inv will do lots of damage too, but give no benefit to the specific situations you're aiming for and offers no additional mitigation. But like DM, it does high damage that is lightly resisted, and does have better aoe abilities. This would be my second choice.

DB/Inv does lots of damage, especially with insane recharge, and has slightly better mitigation than fire, but like fire offers no advantage in the situations you are aiming at like DM does, and on top of that, deals the most resisted damage type in the game. This would be my last choice, but DB is a very fun set to play if you're not worried about being slightly behind in performance.

Take both, but if you can only take one (and I'd like to see what you're taking over these two attacks...), then take shockwave. You have to learn how to use it on teams in order to make sure your team mates don't try to confuse each other so they can attack you, but it does decent damage, hits with a huge arc, and provides awesome damage mitigation, giving your regen secondary time to do it's job.

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So here's the real question:

Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?

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I think we can ignore it once scrapper health, def/res caps, and aggro mitigation is within 3% of brutes.

I love both of these AT's but it's pretty obvious that one of them has a clear advantage over the other, lol.

Good job on the calculations bill.

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But ones functionality is at the choosing of the player, for the other to get close they need to put themselves in considerable danger, taking agro for others never pausing for breath. There is why the extra mitigation needs to come in IMO. *edit* my sheild scrapper actually has more mitigation than my sheild brute, defences are the same but my scrapper actually has more HPs, true this is because I went and got the accolades but thats far more enjoyable blue side than it is red where you have to farm tedious things like 10mill damage and 1.2mill debt, not something general play will pull up on defense characters.

Also brutes attaining and retaining fury isnt easy on a full team with more than one melee character, on a mixed team its even worse with inconsiderate tanks "tanking" and blasters killing your fuel. Brutes are optimal if all the team forms up behind them and follows a set pattern but thats pretty boring for all concerned IMO.

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Let me state again, I don't think the disparity is huge, but there is a disparity. All things being equal, brutes will ALWAYS have more health and dmg mitigation than a similar scrapper, and will SOMETIMES have better damage dealing abilities as well. In some situations, its true that a brute will do less damage than a scrapper, but in those situations, the lack of dmg dealing is offset by the increased health, as it should be. When the brute is dealing more damage than the equivalent scrapper, and has more health, where is the parity? In what situation does an equivalent scrapper have more damage dealing ability AND better survivability? NONE. That is the disparity. We can argue how much of a disparity that is, but to claim there is no disparity is simply nonsense.

In regards to your argument that the brute has to work to do more damage than the scrapper, in some cases yes, but shouldn't that be the case, lol? Can the scrapper do the extra work to have more dmg mitigation than an equivalent brute? Nope. There is the disparity. Worst case situation the brute does a bit less dmg but has better survivability, best case, the brute has better dmg and better survivability, again that is disparity. And in regards to fury, even at a slow pace, the brute will have some fury, and in a long drawn out fight, like what you'd have in comparing long term dmg which is what these threads are about, your fury should be at 90% or more for most of the fight, and you are facing no more danger than the scrapper is.

And again, I love both of these ats and I don't think either of them should be nerfed, it would be completely ridiculous to do so when you see what the other at's are doing. But to claim the two at's are on par simply doesn't mesh with logic. And like I already said, I don't think it's a huge disparity, the two at's are pretty even, and have slightly different playstyles. As I've said in past posts, I'd simply suggest a slight buff to scrappers in regards to team play, where brutes are more valuable imo as they have clearly better aggro management abilities paired with better survivability, and the ability to do similar if not better damage than scrappers.