ConcreteDragon

Amber_Blaze, thank you for the numbers and the thoughts. But I would reduce the 'Level Resistance' instead. That way, the graph would be more even no matter what level the mobs... +0 to +5(after that, the PP takes a sharp turn up, as it should)

Hmmmmmm...
It seems to me that you would want to reduce the slope of the one with the steepest climb.
It looks like the THDB I7(nerfed) has a shallower climb than the un-nerfed I7. What if you kept the nerf, but reduced the effectiveness of the Purple Patch? Like, cut it in half? Instead of .1 for Lts., make it .05

THANX
So, if they didn't do the THDB nerf, I-7 would be a minor buff for DeBuffers, Right?
(and the buff doesn't look game braking, either...)

MrQuizzles, could you add a line to your graph showing what THDB's would look like if they DIDN'T change the enhancements at all? Obviously it would be better, but you graph helps to put it into perspective for me

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I've tracked down the error in the "Before" case. Statesman says:
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The To Hit chance also increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was .58*1.1 or 63.8%.

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As iakona shows, the math doesn't work using these base to hit chances. However, if the level modifiers are additive rather than multiplicative, the numbers match perfectly. (In other words, a +3 boss would have a base to hit of 0.65+0.15=0.80). Which leads to the question: which is wrong, the explanation or the math?

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Good question. It would be nice to get numbers that are actually generated from the game engine and not based on what the devs thinks the current formula is. I'm sure they have a bunch of different ones and are trying to figure out which math they actually ended up implementing..

[/ QUOTE ] Could the Test Engine have a different formula on it than the Game Engine??? It HAS happened before, you know

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I really would like to know how the numbers work out for PvP, Statesman. That's where the hardest edge of things is. After all, no AI will ever be as hard a fight as a good human, and we want to be the best we can be.

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[/ QUOTE ] Well, as close as I can come to understanding Statesman's latest numbers(are they even accurate?), Until I-7 comes out, and if you don't change your slotting, ToHit Debuff powers won't work as well as now. After I-7(1-3 months away), THDB's will be worse than now for Even Con's and +1's, while +2's and +3's will be SLIGHTLY better than they are now

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Also, people are wondering on how PvP has changed. Let's generously assume there's only 1 acc SO on a player's attack. What's their new chance to hit you in PvP in I7 compared to now?

[/ QUOTE ] From what I've read further up, PvP is now 50% to hit, the same as Even Level Mobs in I-7. So you will see no change in PvP To-Hit

disco_, I believe that the base for Darkest Night is ~.185 as posted by _castle_

Statesman said...[ QUOTE ]
Several posters have rightly pointed out that my calculations do NOT take into account combat mods. I'll edit my post to reflect the "real" numbers (because combat mobs apply in both cases, I stupidly didn't include them in my spreadsheet).

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Here are the changes
First Post ,Corrected Post and Error amount(negitives are baaaaaaad)

Before I7...2 SO's schl A [-0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) chance to hit]

Even Con
Minion = 1.87% or 5% 1.87% or 5% = 0
Lt. = 6.125%. 5.66% = +0.456
Boss = 13.125%. 13.13% = -0.005

+1 Level
Minion = 3.125% or 5%. 8.32% = -3.32[or](-5.195)
Lt. = 11.125% 15.85% = -4.725
Boss = 18.125% 23.32% = -5.195

+2 Level
Minion = 13.125% 18.50% = -5.375
Lt. = 21.125% 26.03% = -4.905
Boss = 28.125% 33.50% = -5.375

+3 Level
Minion = 28.125% 31.28% = -3.155
Lt. = 36.125% 38.81% = -2.685
Boss = 43.125% 46.28% = -3.155

After I7...2 SO's schl B [-0.4372 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) chance to hit]

Even Con
Minion = 6.25% 6.25% = 0
Lt. = 7.1875% 12.23% = -5.0425
Boss = 8.125% 19.50% = -11.375

+1 Level
Minion = 11.25% 11.69% = -0.44
Lt. = 12.937% 18.43% = -5.493
Boss = 14.625% 26.46% = -11.835

+2 Level
Minion = 16.25% 18.00% = -1.75
Lt. = 18.687% 25.54% = -6.853
Boss = 21.125% 34.32% = -13.195

+3 Level
Minion = 21.25% 28.03% = -6.78
Lt. = 24.437% 36.51% = -12.073
Boss = 27.625% 46.05% = -18.425

As you can see, the ERRORs were not in our favor How bad are the errors for +4/+5 levels? Also notice that the ERRORs were worse where he was trying to prove that I-7 wasn't going to be so bad I would like to think that he had been working with the first numbers when they came up with the ToHit DeBuff change, and now they will take another look at it But then again I AM a senile old man who is just a bit to trusting...

And since there isn't going to be any adjustment to the to-hit and defence in PvP, that means it is going to just reduce To-Hit Debuff effectiveness in PvP, a nerf... RIGHT???

Strange... I'm gonna have to wrap my mind around this
I thought To-Hit debuffs were affected by the PURPLE PATCH ?



Edit: First Post

My two cent guess???
Your Henchies will get a minor "Taunt Aura" to help keep you from getting attacked

Ok, if my Ill/TA is in Siren's Call, has SI on and fires a Flash Arrow, the SI stealth would be at 501.5(due to the cap) and the Target of the FA would be at -450 Perception, giving my Ill/TA an EFECTIVE stealth of 951.5?
Or ami I just C R A 2 Y

Thanx for clarifying that, Peritus

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
I did it with my level 20 Ill/Rad controler, ConcreteDragon, on Protector. The other guy was a Ninja Stalker, so he had a + to perception. He could se me at about 120. Since the +Perception is a known number for Ninjas, we should be able to interpolate(sic) SI's - to perception, shouldn't we?

You can test SI by standing on a Meteor Waymarker in Blood Bay and having a "friendly" Villan move away from you until he can't see you. His distance from to the waymark gives you the SI distance.

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??? In what universe does skipping 12-16 levels of EXPERIENCE in one night teach you how to play the game?

Give a man a fish he feeds for a day. Teach a man to fish and he feeds for a lifetime. You're not teaching, you're giving.



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I'm sorry, I know this is completely off topic, but anymore, every time I hear that "give a man a fish" saying, I'm reminded of something similar I read (I think it was in someone's signature on these boards). I still find it funny and I'd like to share, so here it is :

"Build a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life."

Sorry, I had to share. Continue!

[/ QUOTE ] Give a man a fish he feeds for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll spend all day at the lake drinking BEER

Great thread!

but what about the Debuff to stealth from Artic Air ?

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Toga's? whit kin' ay cheil wears a toga. Min', th' romans cooldnae make a gang ay it in these blessed isles, a real cheil needs a Kilt

[/ QUOTE ] Aye, an' a Kilt be nae just for cheil'n, neither
~~~Rotten Haggis Level 28 BS/Regen Magic Scrapper

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My 9 year old is named Wesley.

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That is a very cruel thing to do to a kid. Wesley is a horrible name.

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Wesley is a wonderful name

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No, really, it's really a bad name.


[/ QUOTE ] Actually, Wesley is a Noir Hero's name

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Can we just get a full accuracy equation please? ... or a link to the post if it is already there.

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<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Final ToHit = ((50% + ToHit Buffs - (Defense+ToHit DeBuffs)0.05,0.95 MinMax)
* (1 + (minions: +00%; LTs: +15%; Bosses, Snipers: +30%; Monsters,
Giant Monsters, AVs, Controller Pets: +50%)
*(1 + (10% for each level higher than you))0.05,0.95 MinMax)
</pre><hr /> Right?



p.s. thanx Pilcrow

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So let's see how minions work out +3 or +4. We'll assume that 25% DEF is nearly equivilant to 50% damage reduction.

(50% - 25%)* 1.40 = 35% Accuracy (mitigating 65% of damage incoming which is at 140%.) 49% damage.

(50% - 0%)* 1.40% = 70% Accuracy (mitigating 30% damage incoming which is at 140%, but resisted by 50% damage resistance. So a total of 65% damage is fully defended and resisted against.) 49% damage (roughly.)

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As it stands right now, today...

(50%* 1.40) - 25% = 52.5% Accuracy (mitigating 47.5% of damage incoming which is at 140%.) 73.5% damage

(50%* 1.40%) - 0% = 70% Accuracy (mitigating 30% damage incoming which is at 140%, but resisted by 50% damage resistance. So a total of 65% damage is fully defended and resisted against.) 49% damage (roughly.)

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Now for AVs! (trepidation!)

((50% -25%) *1.5) *1.4 = 52.5% (or mitigating 47.5% damage of an AV's 140% damage. Painful, but still a radical improvement onl 20% mitigation from before!) 73.5% (roughly)

((50% -0%) *1.5) *1.4 = 105% (capped at 95%) (So you are taking 95% of 140% AV damage, 133%, but resisting 50% of that. So you are only taking 66.5%.) So 66.5% (roughly).

Amazingly enough, in the same ballpark. I am *very* impressed! The 5% miss chance helps Resistance just a little bit.

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Again, as of today...
((50%*1.5) *1.4)-25% =78.75% (mitigating 21.25% damage of an AV's 140% damage!)110.25% (roughly)

((50%*1.5) *1.4) -0% = 105% (capped at 95%) (So you are taking 95% of 140% AV damage, 133%, but resisting 50% of that. So you are only taking 66.5%.) So 66.5% (roughly).

From 110.25% AV damage to 73.5%? O U C H !!!
That is a HUGE boost for defence sets!

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You know I've actually never recognized this bug before, maybe it doesn't work with Battle Axe.

Funny thing though, just today a Blaster challenged my Tank to an arena match, and I decided to, thing was I missed him about 90% of the time, in all seriousness. Even with build up (slotted with ToHit SOs), my attacks all have about 2 Acc SO's on average, I was even running Invincibility (slotted with a ToHit SO) and I missed him that many times! I checked his info, he had NO defense powers at all, not even combat jumping or anything from the pools. He never stopped moving, seeing as he was a Super Speeder.

He was also 3 levels ahead've me.. so either something is up with Axe (just like the other Tanker primaries) or a 3 level gap really makes a huge difference in defense.

[/ QUOTE ] Axe has that problem, too
I ran a test last night with ChillGiant, my level 15 Ice/Axe tank. I hunted in atlas with out Chill Embrace on. I would arrest one member of a group, and set Gash to auto. After they failed to hit me, they would run. I would chase and bump into their back (so as to not over shoot them), Gash would activate, but no hit or miss message. {So much for the Streak Breaker} It would use End, though. The longest streak I had was 6, after that the mob would forget about me and stop running. ---S P L A T--- This went on for about a half hour.

Then I turned on Chilling Embrace, and I hit every mob I bumped. I think this is because the mob wasn't out of range when the attack went off???


Thank You, WeirdBeard !!! The sooner the better!!!
And thanx to you, Ravenlute , for all the testing you did! Five stars for YOU!

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Yep, I know. This is how I found out about the problem in the first place. Alot of Tankers aren't going to be running around trying to knock out low level mobs unless they are badge hunting. Against things that give them xp they probably aren't going to have to deal with as many runners. However, it still happens and this does cause serious issues in PvP too.

[/ QUOTE ] Agreed...
But if a bunch of tanks were to, say, on Saturday, go to Atlas and hunt for a half an hour to test this theory and /bug it every time it comes up, it might draw some attention to it
Just a little of the tank players time testing and bugging would help!
The more the merrier.

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It shouldn't matter Circ, since any movement takes it out of a zero-radius aoe. Only no net movement should matter (either no actual movement, or movement back and forth in the time between power activation and hit calculation).
*eeep I broke my new year's resolution about not posting during work hours!*

[/ QUOTE ] Actualy, since CE Taunts, the the mob are less likly to run, and will turn back into an attack sometimes. I wonder if any other of the taunt auras help?