Cognito

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Quills and Spine burst can make an SR more team friendly but to avoid an end heavy build id be inclined to leave out quills.

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In a reasonably sized team, this gives far superior DPS and DPE than the single target attacks. In addition, it requires no animation. Personally, I think its the defining power of the set and should only be skipped for concept / aesthetic reasons.

Endurance is less of an issue in i9 with multiple additional ways to boost recovery, and superior IO functioning (e.g. slot quills 2xIO acc, 2xIO end, 2xIO damage).

Nongranites only penalty is -speed from rooted, AFAIK.

Peculiar...

Fire Taunt Aura requires a "to hit" and therefore is open to failure... circle of thorns comes particularly to mind.

All other taunt auras are auto "to hit" and not open to this.

I have always veiwed blazing aura as the "worst" taunt aura, although it still manages to do the job unless you are facing heavy accuracy debuffs.

Pardon my paraphrasing!

Thats how I read the essence of your post.

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As for the "overcome" the damage penalty of granite with rage, please refer to my previous posts. I.E. raged non-granite will do more damage than raged granite.

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So?

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So Granite has penalties.

Im not quite sure if you were actually agreeing or disagreeing with anything I said?

As for the "overcome" the damage penalty of granite with rage, please refer to my previous posts. I.E. raged non-granite will do more damage than raged granite.

AFAIK when rage drops, so does your taunt aura (havent tested this myself but saw it, painfully, in action a couple of months ago). This makes me nervous.

By "Tank" ten times more than other tanks, I take it you mean "I can survive incoming damage directed at me" ten times better than other tanks. "Tanking" is, to my mind, the amalgamation of resiliance and ability to hold and manage aggro under any circumstance, and, to my mind, the best tank for this is an ice/ice with aid self. Of course, different tanks , different scenarios, different preferences. An Ice/Ice against infernal would be a dangerous afair, for instance. Also, an Ice/Ice tank has one of the lowest damage outputs possible (Only Granite/Ice would be worse, I think).

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, particularly about the most important compenent in a team being (shock horror) the teamwork...

There are mathematical reasons why healing is superior pre-SO and inferior post-SO. Of course, empaths are not just about healing. (Flat vs Proportional damage mitigation for instance).

At the end of the day, however, any defender is a fine addition to a team. And most scrappers are, mathematically, a weak addition to the team.

Having said that, as you say, Its better to have a cunning martial arts scrapper than a wild card defender.

And, as you say, at the end of the day - do you LIKE the person?

For various reasons (mathematical, expereince, mythological) empaths are healing like idontknowwhat in the hollows. I wont go into the tedious maths of it (unless you want to, but I dont advise it and my maths is not excellent).

Come level 22, when SO come into play things start to change, particularly if you have a tank on the team. This, coupled with more experienced teams, that play as teams, changes the landscape.

You will be progressively more valued for your buffs (fortitude and clear mind in particular) than anything else. You will also, consequently, have more time to irradiate things (Cosmic burst and Irradiate I would both recommend in particular).

To be honest, in expereinced/high level teams, healing is often consigned to "back up" usually only required when the plan goes awry. Sadly, empaths have their heydey in low levels / The Hollows. By the end game, teams want kinetics and rad defenders above anything else, and many other sets such as FF, Sonic, TA, Dark are all highly valued. Empaths are almost relegated to bottom of the defender pack by this point - although any defender is still more valued than other ATs and there wont be a significant problem in getting teams.

Anyway, hang on in there. Things do change from repeated demands to heal. Later on you will get repeated demand to clear mind and fortitude! . In essence, higher level empaths are veiwed more and more as buffers not healers. And you get plenty more time to hurl around the green stuff.

EDIT: Bah, PRAF Beat me.

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. I definitely do less damage than every other GA tank I've teamed with. I think both GA and non-GA builds can be efficient but in different situations.

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Absolutely.

em/pedanton

But, technically speaking, if you dont require granite armour, then being in granite remains inefficient because your unslotted first attack will do less damage. This is, it must be said, a paltry loss, but a loss nevertheless.

em/pedant off

Hmmm. Not on this thread, although I suspect there is a certain reverse psychology that operates with others.

i.e. I dont want to die. The best way for me not to die is to be in Granite. Therefore, I will provide myself with "logic" that justifies Perma-Granite. Granite penalties can be "overcome" which means Granite doesnt have any penalties (note the falling down of logic in this step).

Purely subjective psychological observation, and Im sure you arent guilty as charged.

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It doesn't work that well tho, the rest of the herd runs in once you start killing the 17 you have with you

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It works well enough to make herding a risky business. I was in a team a few weeks ago with a 7 or 8 man team... tank jumped around "herding" three groups at once...

Can you guess what happened next?

Not that part. Its just I get the impression some feel that "counteracting" or "negatinge" the -recharge penalty somehow invalidates the recharge penalty - i.e. there is no "penalty" for being in Granite form. In fact, to my mind, there is - because with those same bonuses and NOT being in granite form you will end up with a +recharge buff.

Its the psychology not the maths i cant quite wrap my head around. (Although my maths is, I admit, a bit rusty )

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Granite is -65% recharge (according to nofuture which I no longer trust..), it might actually be possible to negate this with IOs..

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I never quite get this logic of we can "Overcome" or "negate" the penalties of Granite. If you have, say, +50% recharge buff, then in Granite you end up with a -15% recharge, in non granite a +50% buff. And unless you are at recharge cap, more recharge buff is good.

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So whats the biggest difference from granite and a nongranite? -recharge.. period. So the entire 'whats more efficient' is down to -recharge. Rooted you need outside granite, wich even has a higher -speed then granite. -damage is no issue, we're tankers. But nongranite most likely need more healing, still need help on -speed and higher end-usage (3 armor and rooted).

-recharge can be overcome partly by IO sets now, the free powers can go for extra attacks (gauntlet) and even provoke pool. Taunt need a extra recharge, thats about it.

Its a style of play, but there is no difference in efficiency.

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AFAIK Granite also comes with a -30% damage penalty.

Tanks still do reasonable damage. If you are doing less damage, you are killing less mobs. If you are killing less mobs than you could be, you are inefficient.

Im making no comments about how inefficient you are - just noting that you are inefficient.

As far as I can see, the only efficiency gained is that a healer (defender) will need to spend more time healing you if you are in non-granite and therefore less time attacking. HOwever, this would only apply to healing defenders, and would not significantly lower their DPS. Overall, even considering an empath defender, team efficiency is lower in granite.

As I said, this does not apply when there is a significant risk of dying. Face planting is, of course, highly inefficient .

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personally i want taunt to be able to affect more people as atm it's pathetic and an increase the cap of number of enemies affected by taunt auras /end rant

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The taunt cap is in place to stop herding. A good thing if you ask me.

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Why would a perma Granite be a shame? Yes, i have -recharge, cant jump etc, but i take away the worry of the supporters to see if i'm doing ok. Little fort, SB or RA and i'm pretty much good to go. I dont have to worry what damage, i dont have to worry about alpha, i can fully focus on keeping mobs busy and protect my team in the best way i can. Add the fact you can get +recharge and +run from IO sets now, making it a bity more easier.



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Granite has significant penalties, impairing your ability to hold aggro and do damage.

It is all very well to say "Yeah, but give me speedboost / [Insert buff of your choice here] and I can overcome these penalties"... but these buffs also occur outside granite. No matter how you cut it, Granite will relatively impair these abilities.

It therefore follows, from a purely "efficiency" point of veiw, that Granite should only be used when you face a significant risk of dying.

(DIsclaimer: Play how you want, not whats most efficient. Im merely pointing out that Perma-Granite is not the most efficient way of playing in many circumstances).

The endless debate is whithout end...

OK. Handsup. Who checks out a tanks build when the join a team and looks if they have the taunt power or not.

And, own up, do you get the heeby jeebies when they dont!

(I confess to both)

Afro I am pondering whether to put my spines/dark AoE scrapper in as a replacement for Molecuman. Would you mind? I still cant decide...

Flash Arrow is AoE.

Grappling Arrow is single target.

Draw your own conclusions as to which is more useful in a big mob / big team

Or, If you team a lot, get assault instead. Aid Self is, ultimately, an inefficient "buy" for a blaster unless you plan on PvP or a fair bit of solo.

Molecuman now successfully cranked up to 35

Ill try to Crank Molecuman up to 35 if thats ok. otherwise, ill rope in an alt.

Thanks for organising it Afro!

Thanks Afro. Yep im a leechophobe so dont worry about that. Anything longer than a few mins and im logged

Short Notice but anybody up for a Numina run at 9pm today? My friday evening plans wave just gone belly up