Cognito

Defence and Resistance: A guide

There is often some confusion about how Defence and Resistance work, so I thought I would throw up a quick guide to clarify some points.

I have listed what I think are the 10 most important points to remember when thinking about Defence and Resistance. They are in order of importance, so read until you get bored!

1. 1% Defence = 2% Resistance

Broadly speaking, this is the most important point to remember. I’ll mention some caveat’s below.

Resistance simply reduces incoming damage by that amount. 100 points of damage incoming? 50% resistance will mean you take only 50.

Defence reduces the chance of getting hit in the first place. 100 points of damage incoming? 25% defence will mean this you have a 50% chance of avoiding it altogether.

Now the most important caveat: This is AVERAGE damage mitigation, which leads us onto the next point.


2. Defence is less reliable

Stop. Read point 1. Its not “less good”, just lest reliable. 1% defence is still the same as 2% resistance.

Right?. OK. Now, remember that in any fight, there is a degree of randomness. Sometimes the enemy will hit you, sometimes he won’t. Resistance however effectively limits the maximum damage someone can do to you – If you have 50% resistance to smashing damage, even if Mr. Smash hits you with with every one of his attacks, you still limit his output to 50% of the maximum he could do.

Defence offers no such security blanket. If Mr. Smash was exceptionally lucky, he could still hit you (with your 25% defence) with every single attack and you would take the full whack of damage. This is sometimes referred to as the “unlucky streak” problem of defence.

As a result of this, you can probably see why the “unlucky streak” problem is less problematic for high HP toons like tanks or brutes (or even scrappers). With a mountain of HP behind you, short unlucky streaks can normally be weathered. Long unlucky streaks get progressively more miniscule in probability. However, as I’ll come on to below, defence offers some different advantages to “squishy” low HP toons.

But bear in mind that ON AVERAGE, 1% defence still equals 2% resistance. Whilst defence based toons can fall from unlucky streaks, they have an equal chance of standing up to things that would fell a resistance based toon because of a “Lucky” streak.


3. Defence protects against more than damage

If an attack misses you, you can avoid more than just damage. You avoid any debuff associated with it, and you avoid any stun, sleep, hold, fear, etc effect. This is one big advantage defence has against resistance.

This is generally more of an advantage for low hit point toons who wont have any “mez” resistance (Sleep, hold, etc). However, even tanks/scrappers/brutes can be hit by a lot of attacks which may debuff your accuracy / speed and can reduce you to a state of uselessness. A resistance based tank who suddenly faces swarms of ice blasts will be very very slow, or facing a swarm of electric blasts (like the cabal) can suddenly find himself out of puff and pretty helpless. However, defence gives very good mitigation versus these effects.

4. Defence is more broad in what it covers.

Consider something like an ice blast, doing (for purposes of demonstration, equal) smashing AND cold damage. (There are several other attacks that do dual damage, notably sonic blasts, energy blasts, and fire swords). Resistance will apply individually to both components. So if you have 40% resistance to smashing and none to cold, you effectively reduce the blasts damage by 20% (for demonstration purpose lets consider the smash and cold damage is equal).

However, when a “dual damage type” attack is fired at a defence based toon, the highest value is used. So, if you had 20% defence against smash (which under normal circumstances is equal to 40% resistance), you would STILL get 40% average damage mitigation to that ice blast.

So, defence has a small advantage against dual energy types, providing you considering a hero (villain) with resistance/protection against only one of the energy types.

5. “Positional” and “Type” defences don’t stack.

Lets go back to our ice bolt and our hero with 20% Smashing defence. Suppose he also has 10% defence to ranged attacks?. Well, it doesn’t count for anything. When you are hit by any attack, the mechanics of the game simply works out the “best” defence you could have against that attack – and applies that, and that only. So our hero still has only 20% defence against the ice bolt. Suppose he had 30% defence to ranged attacks. Well, then that’s better, and he would end up with 30% (but no more).

Resistance suffers no such problems. If you had 40% Smashing resistance, and also 10% defence to ranges attacks, both would apply (see below). In this regard, Resistance has the edge over Defence.


6. Resistance AND defence?

Nothing wrong with getting both! And both would apply. Going back to our hero with 20% smashing defence. Lets say he also has 50% cold resistance. In this case, firstly the defence is applied, making it less likely the attack would actually hit (lowering the chance to be hit from 50% to 30%, for instance). If our unlucky hero is actually hit, then he takes half damage from the cold component of the ice blast.

There are many debates about the virtue of mixing defence and resistance. For instance, Ice tanks (which are defence based) often like taking “tough” ( a pool power) to get some low level smash/lethal resistance. This is because smashing and lethal damage are often the hardest hitting in the game, and thus this damage type is the most likely to get them the dreaded “unlucky streak”. Shaving a little bit of damage off the occasional unlucky excesses can help.

However, it is worth bearing in mind that mathematically, in terms of average damage mitigation “more is more”. Consider our hero with 20% smashing defence. Given the option of 20% more smashing defence, or 40% smashing resistance, what would you choose?. Does the 1% defence = 2% resist apply?

Well, taking aside all other considerations (and consider them you should), and just looking at average damage mitigation, the answer is simple. Go for what you have got already.

Lets look at how he would face against a 100 damage smash attack with a base 50% chance to hit.

20% defence and 40% resist. The attack has a 30% chance to hit, and would do 60 points of damage. That’s equal to an average damage of 24 points.

40% defence and 0% resist. The attack has a 10% chance to hit, and would hit for 100 points of damage. That’s equal to an average damage of 10 points!!!

So choosing more of what you have already means that you would reducing incoming damage by over half compared to the other option!

Now, I have taken “more defence” as an example. The same applies equally to resistance. Looking at average damage mitigation, if you had a resistance to smashing damage, you are better off getting more resistance than also getting defence.


7. Defence IS good against AVs and higher conning enemies.

Prior to issue 7, the mathematics of defence made it perform very poorly against AVs or higher conning enemies. You may still hear this, but it is now just mythology. Whatever the level of the enemy, or if it is a boss, lt, or AV, the average damage mitigation remains 1% defence = 2% resistance.

Of course, you still have to factor in the “unlucky streak” I mentioned above. When facing an AV with an almighty whallop, a defence based toon could face a huge chunk of damage, whilst a resistance based toon at least know’s he has some protection.

But remember, average damage mitigation is (nearly) always 1% defence = 2% resistance

8. Defence “caps” at 45%

Broadly speaking, anything more than 45% defence is pointless (Defence debuff’s and Accuracy buffs aside). You cannot push an enemies chance to hit down any more past this point. However, at this point you have an average 90% damage mitigation so you shouldn’t be complaining!

Resistance cannot actually exceed 75% for most heroes/villains (90% for Brutes and Tanks).

9. Accurate foes are the bane of Defence

Now to a disadvantage of Defence. Its not exactly common, but it happens. If your enemy has “to hit buffs” for instance from leadership, Defence starts to wane, and 1% defence will provide less than 2% resistance. It tedious maths, but the thing to remember is accuracy buffs are the hole in defence’s side.


10. Resistance Resists Resistance Debuffs

You will probably have to read that twice!. Say you have 50% resistance. A resistance debuff will only have half its normal value, as that effect is resisted 50%.

Many (but not all) defence powers also have some resistance to defence debuff built in.

Whilst on the face of it resistance comes up top here, remember that defence also protects versus “non damage” effects of attacks. For instance, by actually avoiding a radation blast (because of defence), you also avoid its defence debuff effect. However, this is no help against “auto hit” debuff effects.



And that’s my 10 pointers on Defence and Resistance.

Keep standing!

Iim fairly convinced Elec control would be the next on the cards for a variety of reasons... But most importantly a) Its an obvious candidate due to elec blast/melee/armour (and its the one missing from the current lot) and b) it requires little extra animation...

Animate Hold? Check (Telsa Cage, Villian/Hero Epics)
Animate Immob? Check (Elec blaster secondary, Villain/Hero Epics)
Pets? Check (Cap Gremlins)

Add in things like a thunderclap power (Elec melee / Blaster secondary) for PBAoE and you have at least 3 (if not 5 including AoE immob and hold) powers pretty much rewritten, plus the models for pets.

Dunno how you fill out the last 2-4 powers in the set. I imagine based around end drain, but all sorts is possible.

In my experience, Controllers solo better than defenders. /Rad is one of the more "soloable" sets, for both Controllers and Defenders.

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even though your Scrapper would survive and kill most of the spawn anyway...

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Short of an spines scrapper, the time a fire/fire blaster takes to obliterate an 8 man spawn is a tiny fraction that a crude scrapper takes to cycle his attacks through a spawn.

Its called balance. And Blasters (particularly with defiance 2.0) simply leave scrappers trailing at a mighty distance in terms of damage, particularly in teams.

They just simply have more class and complexity. Im not saying they are more powerful, just they need more judgement, positioning and teamwork.

The Devs have always maintained that they designed some ATs to work well solo (and thus poorly in teams), noting scrappers for this role, and some to work very well in teams (and poorly solo) noting Defenders for this role. I imagine they consider Blasters, Tanks, and Controllers somewhere in thie middle.

Having been teleported into a Devices Blasters soup of prelaid caltrops and trip mines, then been hit with a Smoke Grenade on top of his stealth, I submit that Dev can be quite frightening in PvP if you are susceptible to TP foe. I imagine the +perception is a welcome addition, and the -recharge from Web grenade is not to be sniffed at either.

h) Team with reasonable players/builds. Dont take somewhat inefficient power choices (unless for concept) to cover for other's inadequecies. (E.g. 7 blasters demanding a tank rush in and absorb every iota of damage).


Seriously, a good dominator or corruptor should keep you from falling down to often.

Otherwise, I would prefer tough over aid self. If you really intend to "tank" 8 man spawns, the attacks on you will run quick and fast, and you have no defence. Without a dominator or other support to slow / hold / debuff those fast attacks, you will be hampered in how often you can fire off aid self.

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I so need to do this TF - it sounds so cool

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Well just reading it means bang goes my chance of getting Lord Khorak on it. There's not going to be room in a relatively difficult TF for a scranker. And I don't do it by halves, he hasn't got Taunt or near enough Smash/Lethal resistance to really do any tanking at all.

Never gonna get the bloody Roman armour.

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Wouldnt say that. Punchvoke works okish.

This TF has *some* slack in it, but not as lot. One or two "pity" slots is reasonable, so dont despair. BUt ultimately if you want to get on it and for it to run smoothly you stand a much better chance with a standard build (not min/maxed) than with an inefficient one like a scranker.

Anyway, I wish you luck! sounds like Roman Armour would suit you well!

Having done this 5 times now, one comment I shall make is: I will not do it again without at least one Tank/Brute/Scrapper with taunt. Ideally two.

In each of the runs I did we only successfully separated the Healing Nictus from Rom via taunting. On 4 runs we had 2 taunters and that was hard enough. On last run we had only one and suffice to say I reached debt cap and we only just managed it.

I have heard people have succeeded with a "Rush" manuever, but none of the five teams I was on was able to do that. I imagine it requires a very high standard of PvE build toons with excellent buffage and debuffage.

I wonder if ELec Armour would be slightly more popular with the PvP crowd given how awful defence is now Superrare recipes give huge ac bonuses?

Its nothing to be proud of, no. Its nothing to be critised either?.

Possibly to me more explicit: If Globey wants to be proud of this, fine. Havent got a problem. Personally If I had done this I wouldnt be proud of it, but then I wouldnt have done it in the first place.

If you, or anybody else wish to take "this is nothing to be proud of", as an insult, then I must apologise. But I repeatedly said that there is no harm in it.

As I said, im neutral about this, although I tip my hat to Globely for his eloquent replies and explanation.

[EDIT: Globey If you have taken offence at any of my posts, please let me know, thanks]

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Yep, I cant understand why people have a problem with you PLing to 50. Dosent effect anybody really.Sure, I dont consider it aything to brag about - but then you didnt anyway!. Having a pop at you seems just a poor show tbh.

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EDIT: Cant understand why people object to PL at all really. Its dull as ditchwater to me, and you actually dont learn to master your toon as effectively as "normal" playing.



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Just in case you misread my posts. Nothing in this is critising PLing. I may have a diffent veiw about how *fun* it is. Note also defending Globey from the less savoury posts in the thread.

Now I would be very interested to find out how you deduced that I may be jealous, or in someway had a pop at Power Levelling.

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To be honest cant see what Cognito is. A jealous guy, a Guru of CoH, or a [censored] talker. You decide. The only problem that somebody has with PLers is that they cant do what they do. Most of them are sad enough to flame PLers because they level faster. Its called 'I'm jealous'. When you guys take a deep deep breath and get a bit of fresh air you might release that Globey did not ask you to pay his subscription, and we dont give a [censored] about your gratz either. TG felt like congratulate him at the forums and he did. Now call the emergency number before you get a heart attack. Pretty bad there is no cure for jealously. You guys are comedy value.

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Where have I said im jealous. Im not. What have I got to be jealous about??? If I wanted a stack full of level 50s its pretty easy, Just PL your way there.
Guru? No idea. I know a fair amount. Never claimed to be a guru.
Trash Talker? I havent claimed to be better than anyone, havent called out anyone to duel.

I also explicitly said I have nothing against PL'ers. I have also explicitly said I have NOTHING against Globey getting a level 50 VEAT. I may not rate is as an acheivement, but theres nothing bad about it. In fact, I explicitly said that I thought people having a go at him on this thread was very poor taste indeed.

I hope that clears up the confusion about what I am. You are welcome to your opinions of me, of course, but if it becomes inflammatory or derogatory, for instance calling me sad or jealous, I suggest you refrain from igniting this thread still further and have it locked (there has allready been one warning).

Personally I think its a good thread - gives me insight into how / why some people play. Its not a veiw I share, but Globey et al have certainly done nothing bad to anyone else, havent insulted anybody, and have a good time playing the game they want to play. Thanks to them for reading this thread and eloquently answering some of the rather tiresome put downs from other folk.

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is not necessary to drop mahoosive amounts of inf to get a decent pvp toon.

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Well im going to be slightly cheeky here. If this is true, why dont the reportedly "uber" PvP players just skip the grind of Inf farming and go make a "decent" toon. They are so skillful surely they dont need the min/maxed build? and heck, its more of challenge for their 1337 skills?

Seriously, every serious PvP'er I know has a pretty much uberised build. Im not going to PvP with a "decent" one, and I suspect you wont either. Or I am mistaken?

Yep, I cant understand why people have a problem with you PLing to 50. Dosent effect anybody really. Sure, I dont consider it aything to brag about - but then you didnt anyway!. Having a pop at you seems just a poor show tbh.

And yes, the game is too easy (A few key Task Forces / missions aside). Thats why I dont min/max and I play with random teams quite often. Its cranks up the challenge. Oh, and now I can play 48 toons rather than 24. Thats kinda fun too!

Now, If I can just persuade 7 more people to play a "Jump Kick team". Id just love to see 8 toons simultaneously Jump Kicking an AV. *sigh*

EDIT: Cant understand why people object to PL at all really. Its dull as ditchwater to me, and you actually dont learn to master your toon as effectively as "normal" playing.

Inf Farming is a different matter alltogether.

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Thats why I've not been specific on AT's and included tactics that any team makeup can use

Exception for stalkers getting a mention as I've read a lot of posts about stalkers being shunned, where here they can provide the team with excellent healer elimination!!!

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Good guide. Personally Id still shun a stalker. the healers can be held, and holds recharge a lot quiker than AS. Stalkers are still the lodestone around any teams neck, and in a tough TF like this teams get can quite picky.

Fortunately, looks like stalkers are in for a major buff soon. Will put them at scrapper levels of desirability (i.e. not looked for, but not shunned), which is a good thing.

From my experience in the TF, Id say it hinges on high damage, high debuff, and at least one good "hold" class (Dominator or Controller) for those Imperious surgeons. 2 Tanks has helped quite a bit, and I would hesitate to do it without one.

[Note: "Shun" seems a bit strong but is the wording im qouting. BUt its a hard TF, and there isnt room for more than one or two less desirable ATs unless you are have a lot of time and tolerance for debt. Nevertheless, good people/players 1st etc etc]

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IOs have driven me right off PvP, as it has most of my freinds. Cant stand grinding to make a playable PvP toon.

[/ QUOTE ] You don't have to grind loads to make a playable PvP toon, I know several guys who've spent 100mill tops on IOs for builds, focusing on %'s for powers rather than set bonuses, and they perform very well. If you know your toon and how to play it, then that will shine out a lot more than your enhancements, although they do help

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I really only want to play on a level playing feild, or at the top of an unlevel one.

Of course, the other thing is that my toons are generally maxed out for AoE / Teamplay, which instantly unlevels them in PvP. Although I suspect (with hover being immune to -fly in upcoming patch) that the Devs are finally looking seriously at how to make PvP less dominated by "cookie cutters".

So what if you know how to play your toon? Ultimately skill plateux's out and PvP becomes a game of who has the best sets/powers for that situation or has grinded for most IOs. Im pretty sure I could take out any PvP toon if I had choice of AT/Sets, all accolades and unlimited inf.

Anyway, I supsect major PvP changes are coming, may tempt me back in to it. I hope so, as PvP helps overall health of game. THe unbalancing of Inf cant be overcome though. I hope Arena allows option to disable set bonuses.

I do find the content a bit repetitive myself. Although I relish new stuff... I presume you played the VEAT content when you whizzed up to 50 then?

The enjoyment i get from PvE is playing with a bunch of people I dont know normally. New alts, new combos, new play styles. THrow in some freinds for social aspects and Im dead happy.

PvP is now a game of who has grinded for the most "uber/ph4t" loot, to me. I was previously tempted before IOs came in, had a few unsolited fights (fled many, won quite a few, lost to stalkers mainly... but actually won more than i lost which was suprising seeing how all my toons are built very much for PvE). IOs have driven me right off PvP, as it has most of my freinds. Cant stand grinding to make a playable PvP toon.

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Thanks, I was wondering if that was the case.

This is my first ela brute and I am wondering if I should go the Tough route or the Aid self route. Anybody have any suggestions.

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Id go the "Play in a team" route myself

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I don't know if you read this but the next patch will contain a huge stalker buff including a higher damage scaler, crits out of hide and other nifty stuff. I wish I could give the source, but my internet is acting funny. Check the american boards if you want detailed info on the new test patch notes about this.

This has made my day

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I cant call that quote of buffs in second post huge by any stretch of imagination.

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Hmmm 10% more melee damage is significant in itself (let alone the HP bonus and reduced hide supression)

In addition, a 31% chance to crit in an 8 man team for every attack will put them on a par with scrappers for DPS, perhaps even higher if they have enough decent AoEs (Elec, Spines Im looking at you).

Its not huge, and I cant say It will make Stalkers able to pull as much weight as the other ATs, but at least they wont lag so far behing they become a liability.

And thats fair enough - the game has, iirc, always been designed around Strong team/Weak Solo ATs (Defenders, Trollers, Corruptors, Dominators for instance), versums Weak Team/Stron Solo ATs (Scrappers, Stalkers), with various builds/ATs shifting up and down this spectrum.

STalkers with their predominantly ST Attacks and Secondary that benefit normally only themselves are always going to be a solo AT. But at least now they wont just be a lodestone around the neck of a team.

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Quite reasonable, IMO. I would still be interested why you decided to get to 50 so quick (I presume 50), and why you posted.

Personally, I havent got anything against your choice at all.

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If you refer back to the OP it wasn't me that made the thread. If it was a normal Level 50, say fire/kin controller for example, no one would be making a big deal. Now really is no different.

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Good point, well made!

Did you PL to 50 for PvP?

Quite reasonable, IMO. I would still be interested why you decided to get to 50 so quick (I presume 50), and why you posted.

Personally, I havent got anything against your choice at all.

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Its worth an congrats if you do it this fast by normal teaming, not just blatantly pling like these two obviously did.

Get a life.

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Wouldn't me spending 300 Hours to PvE it to 50, make me have less of a life? Rather than spending 28.

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Depends why you play. I play PvE to enjoy it. PL is a dull as ditchwater to me. Soloing is fairly boring, and PvP is artless rubbish for me.

I wouldnt say 300 hours in a fun team meeting new people, doing the new VEAT content is sad at all.

However, as I said, cramming 300 hours of game play into a week is pretty sad!

Id be interested to know why you actually did PL to 50 so quickly? PvP I presume?

Because they may have an opinion on the matter?

Given the OP has not harmed anyone in his post, his action of PLing (PL is a warranted presumption, I hope) is not worthy of condemnation.

However, it is totally reasonable for people to make it absolutely clear that they do not think this is anything to be proud of or boast about. I cant see the OP actually does this, but it could be construed that way.

Personally, I offer neither my congratulations or dissaproval. Should I?. I think some of the replies have been clearly dissaproving, which is really not on.

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Why the vitriol from others? Loads of the congrats to whoever posted in the various forums on their latest 50s are for toons that are powerlevelled.

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i think the negative comments are coming more because the people posting about the 50's are making it sound like a big impressive thing.. they dont think it is imprssive PL'ing a character to 50 then bragging about doing it i guess. personally dont see the point in it at all but if thats how people wanna play doesnt bother me.

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Boasting about this "acheivement" is pretty sad. Critising it is not much better.

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I wasnt critising just pointing out why there was so much negative commenting.... i wont say gratz to this thread but i wont condem them on the forums either. but if others want to it sure makes for an amusing thread!

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Oh I quite agree why people feel inspired to make negative comments. Personally, I would be absolutely ashamed to say I PLd to 50, but thats my personal opinion if "I" was to do it. But it doesnt really need critisism as it dosent hurt anyone else.

However, I quite understand this is absolutely *nothing* to be proud of at all. Quite the opposite IMO. Personally I would have kept quiet about it. I suspect some people have.

Congratulations Devs, a well thought out planned, taking a lot from community suggestions whilst not treating it a gospel.

It may not be perfect, but I find it hard to fault. Well done indeed.