Codewalker
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Posts
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Quote:Yes, almost went back and edited to clarify that doing that is certainly possible.Originally Posted by Lothic
I wasn't suggesting that they were pushing an untested patch live today. I'm saying that in order "recreate" the lastest full build of an application like this you can actually accomplish that via multiple subpatches. Many anti-virus applications do that kind of "piecemeal" updating all the time.
We've even seen pre-patches with art assets background downloaded in the past, though the new launcher doesn't seem to be able to do that.
It's just not what they're doing for I22. -
Quote:Statesman + Tron Guy *shudder*Originally Posted by FlashToo
Hardly a fair comparison. I'd have likened it to camel toe.
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Quote:I really doubt it. The patch that's downloadable now is the same version number as the last one to hit beta a week or two ago.Originally Posted by Lothic
I could see where they might break up the overall Issue 22 update into several patches. There might be a "main" Issue 22 patch that includes the bulk of the artwork and other low risk stuff that's been done for months and then one or more smaller patches that represent the more recent changes in the last few weeks on beta. Either way it'll all come together as the final Issue 22 build.
They very rarely push anything live that hasn't been on test or beta at some point -- it's extremely risky to push out untested changes even if it's a bug fix. It may even be against their internal procedures to do so, and would take a dire emergency for it to be necessary. -
Quote:Like the UI randomly rearranging itself?Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
There should be only one update.
Unless something terribly broken creeps onto live that wasn't noticed as being present on Beta.
Oh wait, that was noticed as being present on beta... Hmmm... -
Sentinel is what you want, ShadowMoka. You don't have to use any of the automatic uploading stuff or even have an account to do a Mids export -- those are optional features for if you have a profile on City Info Tracker.
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Quote:Trolls on youtube? *Gasp* Say it isn't so!Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Ahhh, I was wondering how long it would take before someone would start taking potshots at me via the video's comments. Probably the same person who disliked it, too. Kinda like finding that first ding on your new car - now I can relax.
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I keep holding out hope that SSA#2 will be about the Phalanx struggling without Statesman. It would be a great story if they suffered setback after setback at the hands of clever villains and obvious (to the player) traps. Finally Positron admits to himself that while he's a huge asset to the group, he's not a leader, and can't inspire the others as well as they need, nor control their more reckless tendencies.
It would end with Positron stepping down as leader of the Phalanx and someone else taking charge. Even a cured Hero 1 or the player-created character are options there.
I know it'll never happen, but I can dream.
(I think it's better for the story if the in-game characters don't mirror the structure and personalities of the developers who use their names, just so we can avoid things like SSA#1) -
Quote:I always knew that guy was up to no good. He's obviously using macro hax to cast his rez on untargetable teammates who self destructed.Originally Posted by Melancton
Immediately, the Dark Watcher says, "I can bring them back" and before you can say "Padme Hung," everyone is alive and well... except Positron is naked, and Ms. Liberty's costume is still ripped up. Still, I don't know if you can get any "deader" than being vaporized so totally there is only an energy residue left of you.
And yeah, it's "because the writers' whims have decreed it." -
Quote:Hmm, interesting. I'm not quite sure how that could happen, but if it is it's certainly a new wrinkle. It's fairly easy to disprove though (named boss and combat log), so that's one avenue toward testing its viability.Originally Posted by Morganite
Well, yesterday I was reminded of a post I'd read about another ATO proc (don't remember which one), and someone said it only had a chance to fire if the attack hit the -targeted enemy-. The multiple-enemy test doesn't exclude ones that missed the targeted enemy, and since my test dummies all have the same name, there's no way to tell which attacks did or didn't. I did watch while doing a little more messing around with the Brute proc in Thunder Strike, and I never saw that proc fire when it missed the targeted enemy. But I also didn't watch all that long, because it was really boring.
I've got a couple ideas on how to do a reasonably conclusive test of this, although proving a negative tends to be a problem. We'll see how it works out.
PBAoE powers have the same issue - no explicit target. I suspect that the targets are evaluated in the order of distance from the center of the AoE in all cases, which is why it's would be the targeted enemy for AoEs that use a target.Quote:Damage auras have no selected target, obviously, but there do seem to be accuracy checks involved. It's really hard to tell what's going on with the procs in auras though. Except that they're really, really bad in them.
The reason I asked about this one is because Achilles' Heel is designed so that it can't stack from different casters, and is set up in a similar way to the ATO procs. City of Data has the details.Quote:(Achilles' Heel)
I'm pretty sure it can proc on more than one target. People tend to put it in AoEs a lot and all. However, I'm not sure what this is supposed to tell you, since it's an enemy debuff and this issue is all centered on self-buff powers. (Well, the defender proc isn't a self-buff, but it seems to end up functioning the same way.)
I almost didn't mention Decimation, but threw it in there because both use the same mechanics, and there are some odd slotting possibilities with pets occasionally (you'd have to have some way of observing the proc on the pet, but often the pet window and/or combat log can suffice).Quote:The second's an odd one to bring up in this context, since that's a single-target ranged proc. However, there are at least two powers I know of that hit multiple enemies, but take those sets.
It also might affect the splash knock on Propel when it gets added, but I'm not sure how the attribute checking works with ranged damage sets.
I should have been more clear, I was actually asking if anyone could test it with the crafted version of the enhancements, not the SBEs.Quote:The regular proc might be better than the SBE in this case, but I don't already have one of those sitting around. Not sure how much further pursuit this one is worth.
How fast does Torrent recharge for you? The Siphon Insight proc has a 10-second internal cooldown on it that might be skewing the average.Quote:Siphon Insight? I've got something that can test that too. Scrapper, Darkness Mastery, Torrent. Never saw it proc twice on one cast, although my number of samples is not that high. Enough that getting 4% on procs per hit seems a bit too low for a proc with a stated rate of 10%. (13/308).
The real question I'm interested in seeing information on is how does the rate compare from using Torrent on one enemy to using it on a big group.
These procs aren't identical to the ATOs, but are similar in various ways, and I'm trying to piece together a picture of exactly how they function mechanically. I think I've managed to wrap my head around it and have a working theory of why it's behaving this way. Long story short it has to do with how the game handles periodic (ticking) effects, and its apparent inability to cancel them upon a failed tick and be replaced by another in the same processing interval. I was close before, but just looking at it from the wrong angle -- I thought the cancel was preventing it from checking other targets, but it was actually trying to do the opposite.
Based on this, I'm going to predict the following and we'll see if I'm anywhere close:
- Achilles Heel: Will apply to multiple targets in an AoE, and the proc rate for the Attuned version (don't remember if it's available or not) will be close to what it should be per target. Won't apply to a target that already has the debuff.
- Siphon Insight: Will act just like the ATOs -- only one target per cast will be checked and the proc rate for the attuned version will be exceedingly low as a result.
- Decimation: Tricky to test, but Acid Mortar should be able get the Boost Up buff on it. It should also behave like the ATOs and only check once per activation of its mortar attack, regardless of the number of targets hit.
As a tangent, the Brute proc is (incorrectly, IMO) using combat modifiers. I smacked a level 2 Hellion in AP and got a proc of 29.5 Fury... -
Quote:I did some testing and it turns out that the Brute proc suffers from this, too. That's... surprising. It means that the issue isn't what I thought it was, which probably also means that that even if it were determined to not be working as intended, it's not an easy fixOriginally Posted by Morganite
Uh, are you really really sure about this? Because I've done some testing on the Brute proc too. (Although not as much as on the Dom proc. The brute kills enemies quickly enough that it slows things down...)
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For reference, here's a baseline:
Will of the Controller: Chance for Psionic Damage
Fossilize
Times activated: 108
Enemies hit: 101
Procs: 63
Approx proc rate per target: 62%
Stone Cages vs. 1 target
Times activated: 117
Enemies hit: 101
Procs: 7
Approx proc rate per target: 7%
Approx proc rate per activation: 6%
Stone Cages vs. many targets (>16)
Time activated: 103
Enemies hit: 1561
Procs: 164
Approx proc rate per target: 10%
Number of activations in which the proc fired at least once: 86
Approx proc rate per activation: 83%
The last number is highlighted, because IMO that is the number we should see for self-buff procs that are not allowed to stack. You'll notice that it's slightly higher than when slotted in Fossilize because I was at the target cap most of the time. With an average number of targets, the effective proc rate would be close to the single target.
Notice how the proc rate per target is similar to when hitting a single target, but overall the results go up because I'm hitting more of them.
Here's the brute proc in Footstomp. I also had Force Feedback slotted and am including that for comparison, as it's also a self buff which is not allowed to fire multiple times from a single activation.
Foot stomp vs. 1 target
Times activated: 106
Enemies hit: 100
Procs: 45
Approx proc rate per target: 45%
Approx proc rate per activation: 42%
Force Feedback procs: 8
Approx FF proc rate per target: 8%
Approx FF proc rate per activation: 8%
Foot stomp vs. many targets (>10)
Times activated: 118
Enemies hit: 1180
Procs: 60
Approx proc rate per target: 5%
Approx proc rate per activation: 50%
Force Feedback procs: 76
Approx FF proc rate per target: 6%
Approx FF proc rate per activation: 64%
There's a bit of noise due to the lower sample size (I was testing a lot of powers). The key here is that the per-activation proc rate is very similar between hitting 1 target and 10, while the per-target proc rate drops drastically. This is in stark contrast to Force Feedback, which behaves just like the Controller damage proc.
Note that I'm fairly confident that the percent chance for it to fire isn't actually changing based on number of targets hit. That leave two possibilities:
(1) The proc is somehow working on a per-activation basis
(2) The proc is failing to check additional targets past the first
The difference is subtle, but can be tested. I can't at the moment, but if someone can slot the Brute ATO in a PBAoE power and stand around for a while with it on auto, it would be enlightening to see if it ever procs when hitting no targets.
I also want to test the Defender ATO, unfortunately my Defender didn't finish copying to beta and I ran out of time. I'll try to do that at some point.
There's a couple other data points that would be highly useful in determining exactly what is going on here. If someone gets a chance and could test the following, it would be immensely helpful:
- When Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resistance Debuff is slotted in an AoE power, can it ever proc on more than one target within a single activation of the power?
- When Siphon Insight: Chance for +To Hit or Decimation: Chance for Buildup is slotted in an AoE, how does the proc rate compare when only hitting a single target versus using it against a large group?
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Quote:It's not just the target cap, I've been told that the size of the AoE factors into it somehow.Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
The formula uses recharge and number of targets. The problem is, like I stated before, that the AoE Immobilize recharges too fast and has a 16 target cap. Put the proc in a longer recharging AoE mez and it will have a dramatically higher proc rate.
I also stand by my belief that the formula is intended to normalize the rate for procs that are evaluated per-target. Historically, procs are always evaluated on a per-target basis, even ones that apply an effect to yourself. See Force Feedback for a good example.
The Brute and Defender ATOs work this way. However the Dominator and Tanker ATOs are implemented in a way that effectively makes them evaluate once per cast rather than once per target -- something that until I saw and tested them I didn't even think was possible. So they get the low low percent chance from the formula that assumes they'll be checked against each target, but instead it bails out after the first failure to proc. This is even more problematic for Tankers as most of their attacks are technically AoEs due to gauntlet.
All of this is my theory, and the devs are aware of it as well as the empirical evidence that was gathered in testing the Dominator proc. Even if they choose not to act on it, I still appreciate that they are willing to listen. -
Quote:Probably why he said Imminent™ instead of giving a date.Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
watch it zwill, you could take a showstopper to the knee.
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Quote:I really really hope that's not the reason, and it's just a coincidence. Because if that is the reason, it comes across as very petty, and frankly I thought they were better than that.
As for "why", it's that Statesman and Sister Psyche were both personal characters of Jack Emmert -
Well, after some back and forth, unfortunately it sounds like this is considered to be working as intended -- the wider the AoE, the less chance the proc has of firing.
I don't necessarily agree with that, I think that while it shouldn't be more effective in an AoE, it also shouldn't be as heavily penalized as it is when compared to a single target power with equivalent recharge.
Be that as it may, I wouldn't expect a "fix". Looks like the way to go is either a spammable ST power or a long recharge AoE. Unless you're Ice Control -- due to a different bug they can't slot it in Block of Ice. -
Results from my test run. This is against even-level bosses, about 30 of them gathered around me. Every activation hit the cap of 16 targets.
Frostbite activated: 1,038 times
+DMG procs: 161
That works out to right around a 15.5% chance per activation. It's not quite a big enough sample to claim statistical proof, but the trend seems clear. -
Quote:Just like poor Statesman.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Telling you the plan will probably get delayed while your execution will proceed right on schedule.
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Jury is still out on what is WAI for this, but I did discover something interesting. I was testing this with a Frostbite in an AE mission to get a good average over a large sample size.
It turns out that if you have say, 30 possible targets surrounding you, and you activate a power with a 16 target cap, misses do not count towards the cap!
In reviewing my combat log, I'm hitting 16 targets every single time. When I miss one or more, the game continues to roll on eligible targets in range until it either hits the cap or runs out of possible targets. I have several entries where I missed 3 times and had 19 hit rolls for that activation.
This may already be known by some of the mechanics gurus, but it was a (pleasantly) surprising to me.
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Quote:Ack, it does use the combination screen doesn't it? That sucks.Originally Posted by Papaschtroumpf
If my Tanker has the Catalyst and I want to upgrade a scrapper ATO, my tanker can't equip and catalyze it (I haven't done it yet but my understanding is that you need to equip an ATO to catalyze it).
Wasn't there some other way to get into that screen and combine enhancements that aren't slotted in a power? Or maybe I'm just thinking about combining two enhancements that are both slotted. -
Quote:Actually according to the way he's described it, we should have a higher chance for it to go off when at the target cap. It's been described as a static calculation to determine the proc rate, based on recharge time, target cap, and some nebulous "other factors".Originally Posted by Morganite
... Doesn't hold up under testing.
So, you'd expect hitting more targets to yield more procs, right?
On a test run versus 9-12 enemies, 53 procs / 418 activations. (Due to the streakbreaker, there's no way I could get all misses on a cast.) Or a little under 13%.
Now, the 95% confidence interval for both those ranges about from 10% to 16%. But unless lots of things about the way these procs work that Arbiter Hawk has been lying to us about, I can't think of a way that multiple targets could be increasing the proc chances.
With a static proc rate, the odds go up as you hit more targets. The proc rate itself doesn't change, but the number of times it's checked does. (effects are always evaluated per-target, the only way to prevent that is to set something to not stack, which merely hides that fact. See the endurance drain portion of crashing nukes for proof.).
So in order to have a consistent rate regardless of number of targets, there are two possibilities.
1. The proc rate dynamically changes based on number of targets hit. This is contradictory with the statements we've been given about how it's supposed to work.
2. There is a bug.
At this point I'm reasonably certain that (2) is the case, and that it's the same bug that was just fixed for the Defender ATO. Sending a PM to confirm. -
Quote:Oh there's an autopower (that's not properly hidden). The problem is that it doesn't actually increase your crit rate.Originally Posted by Alexis_NA
Really? My scrapper with the superior proc slotted is showing a crit bonus autopower on Live currently.
You have to admit a that going from 5% to 25% crit rate would be a little overpowered.Quote:Originally Posted by Papaschtroumpf
ugh, what I read was that it would increase my crit rate by a 20% chance, as in one in 5 attack will crit? sign me up!
Now that I spent a bazillion inf getting the ATO, I discover it only increases it by 2% (20% of the base 10%).
Thanks Aggelakis for ruining my day
The scrapper proc is still a decent across-the-board damage increase, since crits scale with damage buffs.
Someone in another thread pointed out that it's not that big of a deal.Quote:- catalyst are character bound, so now you're going to get them on the "wrong" character where they will sit useless
1. Regular ATOs are not bound and can be mailed around easily.
2. Superior ATOs are account bound.
So if you get a catalyst on the wrong character, it's just a matter of mailing the ATO to yourself twice to upgrade it. You do have to use an unslotter if you've already got it slotted, but it's not as bad as it being permanently stuck on the wrong character. -
Quote:Zwillinger is now in Very Soon(TM) mode, I'd say it's a good bet.Originally Posted by Xyzor
Are you insinuating that i22 will go live next week?
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I think it's just dumb for them to assume that the Circle ritual will do the right thing to begin with. The sources of information are at best, unreliable, and the Circle themselves are mostly made of up disembodied spirits possessing a human host.
That's fairly common knowledge by level 50, so I think any competent mystic would question using an empowerment ritual devised by them, since it's just as likely to be intended to empower the foreign entity rather than the host's own consciousness. -
Quote:Oh nice, so I shouldn't bother filing a support ticket about my missing badge then?Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually, it is more that all the year badges awarded when Freedom launched in September. Since then, no annual reward badges have been issued.
OTOH, maybe the account group getting a deluge of tickets is what it will take to motivate them to actually fix it. -
Well, part of the problem is that Roots has such a fast recharge. Even if it were single-target it wouldn't be a 100% proc chance. It should be roughly the same overall as Strangler though since they're both 8 seconds.
I don't know how much it's penalizing it for the 16 target cap, it may very well be that the math is off and it's taking too big of a hit for it. I don't know if the formula takes the radius into account at all, but if it does that could be hurting it, too.
It should definitely proc more hitting 16 targets than 1, but how much exactly will need further testing to determine. -
Quote:It'll be fixed in less than a week.Originally Posted by MisterD
Wait..the superior proc is currently bugged? On Live? Excellent! Guess it serves me right for assuming that they could manage to get some new, shiny, well advertised and EXPENSIVE (also rare) enhancements to actually WORK. Silly me.