It is definitely *strange*, but this behavior seems to be pretty consistent with all the ATO procs that do something other than damage. I don't think I've seen anything pointing to it being the intended behavior, but nothing pointing to it being unintended behavior either.
Unless you're after the six-slot bonus, just putting the proc in subdue is probably your best bet. If you are after that bonus... Well, it seems like in a lot of cases it's going to come down to choosing either the bonus or a good place for the proc, not both.
-Morgan.
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping that there would be some indication that this was a bug, but oh well.
My understanding is that the proc is penalized for being in an AoE because it assumes that the proc affects the target and not the caster. That is, the number of targets is taken into consideration (lower proc rate for more targets), even though the number of targets has no effect on the chance to proc. Does that make sense? It may not be a bug, just something the devs hadn't thought about.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
Quote:
It does make sense, but it still sounds like a bug to me since the proc is assuming it affects targets and not the caster. Bug report time. Hopefully they can address it as quickly as they addressed the brute fury proc bug.
|
Originally Posted by gSOLO
My understanding is that the proc is penalized for being in an AoE because it assumes that the proc affects the target and not the caster. That is, the number of targets is taken into consideration (lower proc rate for more targets), even though the number of targets has no effect on the chance to proc. Does that make sense? It may not be a bug, just something the devs hadn't thought about.
|
Quote:
I don't know if I'd get my hopes up based on that, since as I understand it the fix here makes the brute proc more like the dom proc. Before, it could apparently fire multiple times per cast, but had the reduced proc rate due to being AoE. Now, only once per cast, still has the reduced proc rate. Still not absolutely certain whether the low proc rate is WAI or not though.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
It does make sense, but it still sounds like a bug to me since the proc is assuming it affects targets and not the caster. Bug report time. Hopefully they can address it as quickly as they addressed the brute fury proc bug.
|
It kind of annoys me that I can't find anyplace good to use this in my Plant/Icy. Don't think anything in the secondary can take it, it's no good with Roots, and I don't use Strangler that frequently to benefit. Guess I'll probably just be using it for set bonuses.
-Morgan.
Quote:
haha, my annoyance exactly! I was going through MIDS today trying to find the optimal power in all of the dom sets to use it, and I honestly couldn't find an even acceptable one. Seriously, who spams single target holds on a dom when the AT has an entire secondary dedicated to dealing damage and "domination + AoE mezzes" makes stacking unnecessary? The only powerset I could think of that would spam the single-target hold enough to make this ATO worth it is illusion, and doms don't even have access to that powerset. Not even worth using it in control/damage powers like mesmerize, subdue, or dominate because the set doesn't enhance damage at all. |
Originally Posted by Morganite
It kind of annoys me that I can't find anyplace good to use this in my Plant/Icy. Don't think anything in the secondary can take it, it's no good with Roots, and I don't use Strangler that frequently to benefit. Guess I'll probably just be using it for set bonuses.
|
Can't help but feel like the ATO set misses the point entirely. I guess now I know a little bit what it's like for Masterminds with their heavy recharge ATO set. Oh well, like you said, set bonuses!
Quote:
I'm inclined to agree with this, looks at it this way, if you were to put it in something like Artic Air or Hotfeet, and it had the same chance to go off as it does in ST powers, it would be a situation where that proc becomes a ghetto fulcram shift like power( assuming no cap on the number of instances of this proc).|
Originally Posted by gSOLO
My understanding is that the proc is penalized for being in an AoE because it assumes that the proc affects the target and not the caster. That is, the number of targets is taken into consideration (lower proc rate for more targets), even though the number of targets has no effect on the chance to proc. Does that make sense? It may not be a bug, just something the devs hadn't thought about.
|
Just put it in your ST Hold, it works well there, you use the power a lot( I hope!), and its not that hard ot have 2-3 instances of it up at a time.
Quote:
I must be missing something. Maybe someone could explain it again to me.|
Originally Posted by <span style="color: GoldenRod; font-weight: bold;">gSOLO</span>
My understanding is that the proc is penalized for being in an AoE because it assumes that the proc affects the target and not the caster. That is, the number of targets is taken into consideration (lower proc rate for more targets), even though the number of targets has no effect on the chance to proc. Does that make sense? It may not be a bug, just something the devs hadn't thought about.
|
So, using roots and strangler as the examples, the proc has a much lower proc rate when slotted in roots than in strangler to account for roots being AoE, right? Which makes sense at this point to me. It seems an obvious tradeoff: more targets/chances to proc = lower proc rate to compensate; single-target = higher proc rate. This makes perfect sense to me so far.
But now, as gSOLO explained, the number of targets has no effect on the chance to proc. This is another way of saying the chance to proc is on cast--the proc has the same chance to fire every time strangler OR roots is used regardless of whether the target is one enemy or many. Think about that. Giving the proc a lower proc rate in roots when the proc fires on cast rather than on hit makes no sense whatsoever. If the AoE aspect of roots is meaningless in determining whether the proc fires, WHY is the proc rate lower due to AoE?
Theoretically, when faced with a single enemy, the proc should fire at an equal rate whether it's slotted in strangler or roots if the proc chance is on cast. Instead, as we all know, even against a single enemy, the proc rate is MUCH lower on roots than on strangler.
Let me know if what I'm saying makes sense or if I'm missing something. I just don't understand how this can be anything but a BUG.
Quote:
Well, that's why I've been thinking the best option would be slot the proc in something from the secondary, and slot the rest in a suitable control. Of course, that's if I'm not going for ranged defense. Which my Plant isn't. Too bad Icy doesn't have a thing it can go in...|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Not even worth using it in control/damage powers like mesmerize, subdue, or dominate because the set doesn't enhance damage at all.
|
Quote:
| Let me know if what I'm saying makes sense or if I'm missing something. |
What I actually *expected* was for the proc (when put in an aoe) to be similar to the Force Feedback proc - a low chance for the effect to fire per target, but an effectively pretty high chance that it'll fire from one or more... but only one firing per click will actually do anything. But they might not be *able* to have it work like that and still be able to stack with itself over multiple clicks.
So, given that it (AFAIK) only rolls once per cast ever, it'd certainly be nice if it didn't get the AoE reduction.
-Morgan.
Quote:
No, the number of targets hit does increase the chance that the proc will fire. Whether the proc affects the target or the enemy has no impact on that.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
But now, as gSOLO explained, the number of targets has no effect on the chance to proc. This is another way of saying the chance to proc is on cast--the proc has the same chance to fire every time strangler OR roots is used regardless of whether the target is one enemy or many. Think about that. Giving the proc a lower proc rate in roots when the proc fires on cast rather than on hit makes no sense whatsoever. If the AoE aspect of roots is meaningless in determining whether the proc fires, WHY is the proc rate lower due to AoE?
|
The only difference is that the proc is set up so that it can't stack -- i.e. can't grant you more than one instance of the temp power in a single power activation.
Since the proc rate goes down in an AoE, it's unlikely that you'd get 2 procs in a single cast anyway, but the no-stacking flag guarantees that you won't, even if you're lucky.
TL;DR - if you're spamming roots on a single target, the proc rate will be very low. In theory, if their math is right, spamming roots on a group of 16 targets will result in an overall proc rate equal to or slightly higher than putting it in Strangler.
(I would hope higher when hitting the cap, with the normalized proc rate being based on an average number of targets, but the devs haven't revealed their formula so I don't know for sure)
Quote:
That's interesting. So you're saying the proc chance IS affected by the number of targets, which is contrary to what I thought. I'm going to have to run around and find some large spawns to spam roots on to see what happens.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
No, the number of targets hit does increase the chance that the proc will fire. Whether the proc affects the target or the enemy has no impact on that.
The only difference is that the proc is set up so that it can't stack -- i.e. can't grant you more than one instance of the temp power in a single power activation. Since the proc rate goes down in an AoE, it's unlikely that you'd get 2 procs in a single cast anyway, but the no-stacking flag guarantees that you won't, even if you're lucky. TL;DR - if you're spamming roots on a single target, the proc rate will be very low. In theory, if their math is right, spamming roots on a group of 16 targets will result in an overall proc rate equal to or slightly higher than putting it in Strangler. (I would hope higher when hitting the cap, with the normalized proc rate being based on an average number of targets, but the devs haven't revealed their formula so I don't know for sure) |
The proc is meant to stack with itself, up to 3 times iirc. I know for sure I've seen it stack once (for double the normal damage). It's just extremely rare to get it to even cast at all in my experience because I have it slotted in roots. But some people talk about running around with it stacked all of the time, with it slotted in ST holds.
Hmm. Did some informal testing by running around in RWZ bunching up Malta to the aggro cap, and the proc rate still seems very low, even with roots saturated with 16 targets. I was only able to stack once for about 2 seconds and most of the time struggled to get even a single proc to go off. It seemed about a proc per minute by my rough guess-timation. Even if the no-stacking flag limits the proc to once per cast, I was spamming target-saturated roots to little effect. This still doesn't seem right.
It very well could be just a spell of unlucky; after all, random is random. But even with roots saturated, this proc is nowhere even close to the perma buff status some have been talking about when slotting it in single target.
I wish I knew the formula behind this proc. It would make testing much easier to do.
Well, part of the problem is that Roots has such a fast recharge. Even if it were single-target it wouldn't be a 100% proc chance. It should be roughly the same overall as Strangler though since they're both 8 seconds.
I don't know how much it's penalizing it for the 16 target cap, it may very well be that the math is off and it's taking too big of a hit for it. I don't know if the formula takes the radius into account at all, but if it does that could be hurting it, too.
It should definitely proc more hitting 16 targets than 1, but how much exactly will need further testing to determine.
Just making a wild guess here, given the proc is a potent proc, and using logic here, I imagine they do want it to proc less with AoE powers, even if it is capped at three applications, that is, they'd rather not see 3 damage boosts with a single application with the same rate as with ST powers.
Given that,
if on ST its 100%
logically for AoE powers to achieve approcimately the same effect
-Powers with a 16 target max, 100%/16 = 6.25% per hit
-Powers with a 10 target max, 100%/10 =10% per hit
Alternatively, they could base it on per activation, while keeping it 100%,
I'm not going to actually test myself, but it wouldn't suprise me, if on roots it does turn out to be 6.25% per hit.
Like I've said before, just put it on on some ST mez power( ST hold, confuse, sleep, or immobilize), your going to spam anyway, and you don't have these problems.
Quote:
That's what I've been saying. Just base it on activation and the discrepancies normalize themselves out. It doesn't even have to be 100%. The percentage can be tied to the base recharge to allow longer recharge powers to proc at roughly the same percentage as low recharge powers.|
Originally Posted by Tocharon
Alternatively, they could base it on per activation, while keeping it 100%
|
There's absolutely no need for the proc to check for targets. That's causing more problems than it fixes, when simply basing the proc on activation would both be easier and more consistent. On a related note, I went into beta and slotted the proc into strangler at lvl 10. WOW, what a difference. proc'd ten out of 12 activations. There is simply no way that the devs intended the proc's effectiveness to vary as much as it does, especially considering all of the effort they have put into getting the proc to fire a certain number of times per minute.
With respect to the frequent comments to "just slot it into strangler and be happy," that's missing the point. Broken is broken. Bugged is bugged. The devs didn't create the proc to be limited to use in ST holds. Besides, on a personal note, I value both the set bonuses and the proc--I don't want to split them up. And on my build, basilisk's gaze is better in strangler, so I don't want to put the set in there. It really shouldn't matter. If my car broke down, I can always take the bus. But the availability of a (somewhat) adequate workaround doesn't change the fact that the car needs to be fixed.
Quote:
Well, I have tested, and it's not quite like that.|
Originally Posted by Tocharon
Just making a wild guess here, given the proc is a potent proc, and using logic here, I imagine they do want it to proc less with AoE powers, even if it is capped at three applications, that is, they'd rather not see 3 damage boosts with a single application with the same rate as with ST powers.
Given that, if on ST its 100% logically for AoE powers to achieve approcimately the same effect -Powers with a 16 target max, 100%/16 = 6.25% per hit -Powers with a 10 target max, 100%/10 =10% per hit Alternatively, they could base it on per activation, while keeping it 100%, I'm not going to actually test myself, but it wouldn't suprise me, if on roots it does turn out to be 6.25% per hit. |
For one thing, the target cap isn't the only thing that matters - the radius does too. There's also a difference between conical and spherical AoEs.
And another, it's not just a linear division thing. The control set AoE immobilizes I've found to pretty consistently get proc rates of about one-fifth that of a single-target control power. Those powers are notable as having both a high target cap and a huge radius.
Also, as Codewalker noted, it would not be a 100% regardless. Both the AoE immobilizes and the single-target holds recharge too fast for that. It's pretty high though. (According to City of Data, the regular proc is 5ppm, not 3. Which explains a few things. My testing with Strangler shows a pretty consistent proc rate of somewhere around 80%.)
Quote:
| Like I've said before, just put it on on some ST mez power( ST hold, confuse, sleep, or immobilize), your going to spam anyway, and you don't have these problems. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
No, the number of targets hit does increase the chance that the proc will fire. Whether the proc affects the target or the enemy has no impact on that.
|
I did some more runs with this proc in Roots, with only a single enemy in range. 84 procs / 605 hits, or about 14%. (The number of activations is slightly higher, but I don't think the proc can fire if it doesn't hit at least one enemy. It definitely did not fire on any of the 30 misses during this test run.)
So, you'd expect hitting more targets to yield more procs, right?
On a test run versus 9-12 enemies, 53 procs / 418 activations. (Due to the streakbreaker, there's no way I could get all misses on a cast.) Or a little under 13%.
Now, the 95% confidence interval for both those ranges about from 10% to 16%. But unless lots of things about the way these procs work that Arbiter Hawk has been lying to us about, I can't think of a way that multiple targets could be increasing the proc chances.
There is one caveat to these results - I did my testing on Beta. Live might be doing something different. But if it is, you can probably expect the future to hold Live changing to function the same way as Beta. That's what happened with the Brute proc.
-Morgan.
The ATO works great in longer recharging AoE attacks. The problem is that Roots and the AoE immobilizes recharge a bit too fast to really ramp up the proc rate. If you put that thing is something with massive targeting geometry and a 45+ second recharge, you can reliably triple stack it on spawns as an opening build up (Terrorize or Mass Hypnosis a Mind dom).
Quote:
Actually according to the way he's described it, we should have a higher chance for it to go off when at the target cap. It's been described as a static calculation to determine the proc rate, based on recharge time, target cap, and some nebulous "other factors".|
Originally Posted by Morganite
... Doesn't hold up under testing.
So, you'd expect hitting more targets to yield more procs, right? On a test run versus 9-12 enemies, 53 procs / 418 activations. (Due to the streakbreaker, there's no way I could get all misses on a cast.) Or a little under 13%. Now, the 95% confidence interval for both those ranges about from 10% to 16%. But unless lots of things about the way these procs work that Arbiter Hawk has been lying to us about, I can't think of a way that multiple targets could be increasing the proc chances. |
With a static proc rate, the odds go up as you hit more targets. The proc rate itself doesn't change, but the number of times it's checked does. (effects are always evaluated per-target, the only way to prevent that is to set something to not stack, which merely hides that fact. See the endurance drain portion of crashing nukes for proof.).
So in order to have a consistent rate regardless of number of targets, there are two possibilities.
1. The proc rate dynamically changes based on number of targets hit. This is contradictory with the statements we've been given about how it's supposed to work.
2. There is a bug.
At this point I'm reasonably certain that (2) is the case, and that it's the same bug that was just fixed for the Defender ATO. Sending a PM to confirm.
Quote:
Whatever should be happening, the only way to explain what actually is happening that I can see is that in this case the effects *aren't* being evaluated per-target, but instead only once regardless of how many targets are hit.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
The proc rate itself doesn't change, but the number of times it's checked does. (effects are always evaluated per-target, the only way to prevent that is to set something to not stack, which merely hides that fact. See the endurance drain portion of crashing nukes for proof.).
|
Now, what you're describing is how I'd like to see it work. Then I could stick it in Roots on my Plant/Icy, have it go off at a reasonable rate, and be happy.
-Morgan.
Thanks for the extensive testing Morganite. On that note, I've tried using roots against 9-12 targets on live as opposed to beta, and there doesn't seem to be any improvement. It still procs around 10% for me.
Hopefully the devs respond to your PM soon, Codewalker. Let us know what they say 
Jury is still out on what is WAI for this, but I did discover something interesting. I was testing this with a Frostbite in an AE mission to get a good average over a large sample size.
It turns out that if you have say, 30 possible targets surrounding you, and you activate a power with a 16 target cap, misses do not count towards the cap!
In reviewing my combat log, I'm hitting 16 targets every single time. When I miss one or more, the game continues to roll on eligible targets in range until it either hits the cap or runs out of possible targets. I have several entries where I missed 3 times and had 19 hit rolls for that activation.
This may already be known by some of the mechanics gurus, but it was a (pleasantly) surprising to me.
Yeah, it's shown up before. I'm pretty sure it actually applies to all AoE powers.
I think I first ran into it in a post by Arcanaville explaining why Jolting Chain will essentially always hit it's target cap if it hits at all (assuming clustered mobs). If the first jump fails, it'll try the next target in line, and if it's got capped accuracy the streakbreaker will force the second try to succeed, and it'll keep happening all the way down. So the only way for Jolting Chain to run out is if there's nothing else in range that hasn't already been hit.
It's definitely a case where the mechanics are being nice to you. ^.^
As for whether the current Dom proc behavior is WAI... well, as I understand things, the Brute proc fix makes it work in the exact same way. So I wouldn't get my hopes up on this being something that's been missed. Something they could be convinced to change, maybe? It doesn't seem that fair to any of the ATs with self-buff procs, since the ATs with damage procs can potentially get good utility from theirs.
-Morgan.
Results from my test run. This is against even-level bosses, about 30 of them gathered around me. Every activation hit the cap of 16 targets.
Frostbite activated: 1,038 times
+DMG procs: 161
That works out to right around a 15.5% chance per activation. It's not quite a big enough sample to claim statistical proof, but the trend seems clear.
The concept of "proof" in statistics can be a bit fuzzy in general. But that number of samples gives you a 95% confidence interval of 13.3% to 17.7%, which is enough to be reasonably satisfying. Especially with the obvious thing to compare it to (the single-target hold) regularly getting proc rates in the 80% range.
-Morgan.
I can't decide where to place the ATO set on my plant/psi dom. I want it to proc often enough to make it worth it and for some reason putting it in roots absolutely kills the proc rate, despite near constant spamming. Is this a bug that I should be reporting? It is my understanding that the ATO procs on cast rather than target. If that's the case, putting it in a single target or AoE power shouldn't matter.
The "bug" is really annoying me because it limits me to placing it in the single target hold and then spamming the hold, which is something I almost never do on my plant/psi. I considered putting it into subdue which has the control aspect and is spammable, but the ATO set doesn't enhance damage, so my single target damage would greatly suffer. It's pretty irritating that the proc is limited to placement in spammable, single-target control powers that aren't used for damage. Doesn't leave much else other than strangler, which is much happier atm 4-slotted with basilisk's gaze.