Circeus_NA

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(Also Ice is not the weakest Tanker primary defensively. Fire is for most situations. "board wisdom" just hasn't cottoned onto it yet)

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My wisdom has, but you already knew that

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The test that Statesman ran showed that while an INV can help in a large-team mission, he is in perhaps an unacceptible amount of danger, and would probably have much more trouble if either he did not have Dull Pain or if the DEF from Invincibility was reduced.

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My problem is that the test is skewed and he knows it - Invincibility is broken, and he's not yet given a fair announcement about it to the masses. And its going on close to two weeks since he notified me that it was broken in exactly the way I stated it was broken, though providing more of a bonus than I had thought.

He was getting, assuming 3 slotted for DEF and even level SOs, avout 7% DEF per mob that surrounded him. Figuring his 1/3 of that mob he had around 6 or 7 mobs on him, which means he was getting about 42% or 49% DEF total plus the @2.5% you net with Tough Hide less Unyielding penalty.

If Invinc were working properly he'd be at 14% or 16.4% +2.5%.

So he'd have been getting hit much more, taking much more damage, and considering he was riding at 1/3 health several times, you can consider that each of those times he would have been more than likely dead had his defense been where its intended to be.

So I personally find his test, and his portrayal of it to be a bit ludicrous. Which is why I can't take it seriously.

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Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.

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On the live servers? Considering what you and I have been discussing in email, namely that Invincibility is providing three times the buffit should be, the fact that you're riding at 1/3 "several times" have you concerned in the least?

I'll tell you what. Try the same thing with an Ice/Fire, a Fire/Fire, and a Stone/Fire (both out and in Granite) - so four more tests total. And then tell us what you think.

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While they say that tecnically very little prestige is actually lost.. who wants to go selling off chunks of their base just b/c they can't afford the rent that month?

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Yeah its a bit excessive in that regard. Though I think that if you can't meet rent your base is still around just the power gets turned off to it so nothing functions. You can still enter it in this state.

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Also what happens when someone else sells something out of a base that you built? Does it go back to your add personal item inventory? Is it broken back down into salvage or is it just gone?

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You get back the Prestige, but the item is gonzo. Not saying I like this, just the way it works. It should net sum into the "Place Item" window as normal if you ask me.

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The OTHER thing to take into consideration is that we're paying MILLIONS for things like a Generator that some jackass will simply destroy in pvp. Do we get the prestige back when they destroy it? How about the salvage?

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AFAIK you get nothing back when the item is destroyed.

It does make me wonder that considering the DoIDD is probably the single largest and most organized SG in the entire game, if they're having such issues you can figure that even if they get to the point of having Items of Power in their base, who they heck are they going to have to raid against?

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Where did you learn to do math? 5% of 20,000,000 is 1,000,000. Its really easy you open the windows Calculator and type in 20,000,000 and press the * button then type in .05, hit enter and boom you get your answer.

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From beta the actual scale of rent (I think poz posted this, I've only got it from a quote on my SG website):

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The corrected rate ramps from 0% at 0 prestige to 1% at 1,000,000 prestige. It then ramps to 2% at around 14,00,000 prestige and 3% at around 69,000,000 prestige. The maximum the rate is 3.8% at around 170,000,000 prestige. (These ramps are smooth and not linear.)

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So at 20mil you're around 2.2%ish figure (probably even less, but its hard to say since I figure its a exponential increase rather than a linear one on the ramps as indicated). So 440000.

Yeah I guess I don't mind high costs but I think the actual costs for building a base are higher than acceptable limits of fun for most people who just want to play a game and not make a game become work.

The best way I can illustrate this is like this...

Total Bonus for 1st 15 members: 300,000

Cost of 2x2 Energy Room: 150,000
Cost of Basic Generator: 225,000
Cost of 2x2 Control Room: 100,000
Cost of Basic Control (e.g., Mainframe): 150,000
Total Cost: 625000

In other words, with the bonus, all you can do is place the rooms, you can't actually get Basic Energy or Basic Control.

This means the bonus isn't even enough to be able to afford the basic core needs of a base (Energy + Control).

Now if those costs were 50% they'd look like:

Cost of 2x2 Energy Room: 75,000
Cost of Basic Generator: 112,500
Cost of 2x2 Control Room: 50,000
Cost of Basic Control (e.g., Mainframe): 75,000
Total Cost: 312500

That would put things so that the bonus was enough for the basic core base needs. From there everything else would be earned.

To me this just indicates that base items, rooms, plots, etc. all cost about twice what they should.

Energy/Fire

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This is a BUG.

New Supergroups are only supposed to get the 20,000 Prestige for having 1 member.

Supergroups who took advantage of the bug (either on purpose or accidentally) will have the 36,000,000 Prestige removed. You can't spend any of it until CoV goes live anyway.

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What about the fact that some SGs don't seem to have received the Prestige award per member up to 15? Example, my SG, "Avatars of Justice", on the Justice server did not receive this bonus.

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Yep, I was there too.

--Ravenstorm

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Heh. You were the only one who killed Malignant Quinn too, and I never even saw you, which made it quite funny to me. I was like wuh? where?

I mean heck neither Brawler, Synapse (Mako), nor Kirby could get me (who was Kirby btw), and I enjoy a good, fair, clean backstab from a hero (who's too chicken to fight me face to face).

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OK - here's the most likely outcome...

If you own both games, you get all options - the new CoV sets will be accessible for your heroes.

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Pardon my bluntness, but whoo-freakin'-hoo!!!

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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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40% of an even level SO in return. I don't quite get why you balance in terms of +3 SOs and then give returns in even level SOs. Should be 15.33% if you ask me.

That said, some clarity...

Are the actual values for Endurance costs being lowered (e.g, all costs get a new value that is 86.67% of its current value, meaning a power that costs 10 End now drops to 8.67%)?

OR are the actual values left the same and this an additional bonus applied to Endurance costs at the time of deducting against your total current endurance?

AND if the answer is "yes" to it being an additional bonus, is it applied like an enhancement, or is it from the final End cost after enhancements are applied?

Specifics? As in which powers were affected? And how?

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(complete lack of emotion in voice)
You no good theif.

(pops another zoloft)
I haven't cleaned all those guns yet. You may hurt yourself. Or someone else. Oh well. Just bring them back when your done, or not. I really just don't mind right now although I seem to remember that there is supposed to be a reason for me to care.

(pops another zoloft)
Nothing to worry about though.

Say, did you want ammo? I keep it under the bed. I can help you get it if you want. Doesn't matter though.

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I didn't take the guns, I took the key. I just figured we'd all be safer that way, you being in a drug induced semi-coma and all that

/me quietly steals the key to Concern's gun case.

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Corallary to that...what good is it to have the enhancement tell you how much good it'll do you if you still have to add a slot to the power before you can know how much good it'll do you?

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Well... fair point, I also just pointed out, that since the amount your enhancements boost an aspect of a power is only half the equation, what good are those numbers without knowing the base? I think they're practically worthless to be quite honest.

I do have a flair for dramatic subjects for threads

Remember "Taunt and the Law of Unintended Consequences"

Anyway, I just wish the devs had the guts to give us all the numbers and not just some of them. After all I have to ask what good is knowing the effectiveness of enhancements in the enhancement screen if we don't know the base values it affects.

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Or to be relevant to this thread, he could just explain WHY HE HATES ICE TANKERS SO MUCH.

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Its not hate. Its FEAR.

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Defenders aren't short sighted about it in actual fact.

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Whoever wrote up that issues list is It'd carry more weight to mention up front that the problem affects every Damage Debuff in game, and not just the ones in the Kinetics set, which is what the list implies. It just carry more weight to drive that point home every time the issue comes up.

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Two things: first, do we know if this behavior is the proper behavior, or a bug?

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Doesn't make it not the way it works now. Which is all anyone was saying really. Right now -Damage debuffs are resisted. There's no mistaking that. And we don't know, but people have been complaining about it for over 6 months and the devs have not spoken up about it or done anything to alleviate it, so I think its a "works as we want it to right now" sort of thing.

RE: Hamidon. He wasn't saying Hami would get debuffed to 2.5%, he was saying the debuff would be reduced from 25% to 2.5%. I personally am not conviced the amount RES resists a -Damage debuff is 1 for 1.

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Enemies and players alike with damage resistance automatically resist resistance debuffs. I'm not aware of anything inherently resisting damage debuffs, beyond the purple patch "resistance" which is really a drop in your effective power.

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Damage Resistance (RES) affects Damage Debuffs as well. Its very odd in how it works too. But basically if the mob has RES vs the same Damage type they are using to attack, then the mob is able to resist, in part, the Damage Debuff vs that Damage type.

I've quoted this from the Defender's current issues posting:

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Bug: Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power. If a mob has a resistance, or vulnerability, to a certain type of energy AND that mob has an attack that is based on that type of energy, the amount the damage will be debuffed is altered by the mobs resistance. For example -- a villain has a 25% vulnerability to energy attacks. His energy damage is debuffed an extra 25% beyond the base 25%, making the final debuff 31.25% (25% of 25 is 6.25). This works in reverse as well. A mob, such as Hamidon, with 90% resistance to all attack types would only be debuffed 2.5%. (Ladioss_Sopp)

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NOTE: Defenders are a little short sighted in that they don't seem to realize this affects all Damage Debuffs and not just these two.

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STILL? Crap...do I need to take fighting then? Check out my ice ice baby thread for my burgeoning (lvl 31) ice/em tank.

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Tough does not make up the difference.

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Here's the thing. You gave an incorrect value for the recharge debuff of Chilling Embrace along with an inaccurate description of how the recharge debuff works. I corrected you. I don't see what the big deal is.

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No, I gave the value along with the explanation that Statesman gave me. Believe it or not, before he asked me to change the model I was using in my calculations I was actually calculating it what we agree is a more standard fashion.

Get it, I'm not disagreing with you, I'm saying I was posting under the impression of what the devs were telling me was the way they were calculating the value and using it. Because history shows that the best way to get something across to the devs is to chat in the lingo to which they are accustomed or in which you have chatted with them before. You certainly wouldn't walk into a room of English speaking people and start speaking Swahili.

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But you use an incorrect model for recharge debuffs in your calculations. That means that the falloff due to level scaling that you calculate is also incorrect.

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I absolutely agree. Based on what he's saying now, but at the time he and I were convesing he handed me the 66.67% number and said that the debuff applied directly to that number. So I was going by what I was told by Statesman. It went against how I thought it worked, but generally speaking when a dev is giving me numbers and forumla that he's using to balance I tend to trust them.

The nice thing, well okay not so nice, is that I've been overstating Ice's performance. Its actually doing worse comparatively than I've been demonstating.

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Of course, I forgot to mention that just as its never a good idea to trade a defense for a debuff (all things being equal), its never a good idea to trade one debuff for two, unless you only tank even level villains.

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I agree. I think that's why in the end Statesman is taking the approach of making the sum of the two debuffs higher than the original, rather than equivalent. 0.14 + 0.32 = 0.46 as opposed to 0.40. Makes it a little bit stronger vs level and RES. Not much, but a little bit. (note: not saying that's "great math", but I suspect that's his approach)

Still since in teams you almost never fight even level foes, he's probably shooting to help there too.

Now if I could just get Statesman to realize how far behind Ice is on Smash/Lethal, with little to show in return for being that far behind, I'd be much happier.

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Hahaha. I guess it's sorta like the old Cheerios commercials with Mikey. "If Mikey likes it, IT'S GOTTA BE GOOD" I hated Cheerios no matter how many times they made that poor kid drink fatty milk with those nasty circles in it. BLAH!

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Dude. C'mon. Life Cereal.

Cheerios was "Cheery Oaty Oooooos!!!"