Chriffer
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Posts
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Quote:"Reasonable time frame is a very subjective" term. I think, purely subjectively and speculatively, that many players would consider BOTH sides failing in the sub-level 50 "reasonable time frame".Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
How about "cannot sell what you find and buy what you want in what you consider a reasonable timeframe."
Or: "cannot sell what you find and buy what you want in what you consider a reasonable timeframe compared to your experiences heroside."
Because this is the crux of the problem in my mind. It is not "separate but equal," it is "separate and one is clearly superior to the other in terms of meeting my needs and those of many others."
Due to drop weights being added this data is more difficult to determine. A random roll should roughly be equal returns to the most profitable specific option. Player preference of "I don't want to wait 'till I collect enough merits" verse "I don't like random" decides the difference.Quote:Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I remember when merits first came out this was not the case. There was someone who showed that particular pool A recipes that were not in the random roll list would be worth more when crafted and sold than the average random roll and IIRC there was someone else who showed that at a particular time the random roll was worth a little less on average than direct purchase for pool C.
I don't know what the current numbers are, has anyone done the analysis and shared it recently ? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've posted several threads demonstrating the opposite over the years, alas for the forum monster and sofware upgrade. Smurphy also fails to include the very relevant timeline for various recipes. Time between sales blue side generally kicks sand in the face of redside. In the thread I posted comparing the various Positron's Blast recipes back in the day hero side consistently delivered five dates within the last month, villain side regularly exhibited numbers stretching back 6 months or longer.That list is sub-level 50. Yes, villainside has a slower rate of transactions. Yes, villainside has less availability. Your comment to which I responded to said "forgot villains, who can't usually sell their stuff and buy what they want like heroes- in their case, saving merits and buying specific recipes is probably the most efficient way to go about things." As I explained this statement contains hyperbole and is disingenuous. Your statement specifically deals with availability: the ability to find an item to buy. Availability is not so dissimilar to warrant the words "can't usually sell their stuff" nor "buying specific recipes is probably the most efficient way to go about things".Code:
Red Blue 72 44 29 45 1 0 4 39 1 17 0 0 4 27 1 12 0 6 2 0 39 35 0 1 2 10 3 0 7 12 11 3 2 21 2 5 2 8 3 4 15 2 3 5 13 2 1 1 1 1 1 57 0 0 6 2 15 9 240 368
Villains CAN usually sell their stuff and buy what they want. Villains most often should not save up and buy a specific recipe via merits. The key point to understand is "less volume" and "less availability" does not necessarily equate to "cannot sell what you find and buy what you want." -
Quote:Actual data demonstrates this statement to be hyperbole. In fact, many desirable items are often more available on villainside. At the time that data was collected, Pool Cs such as Obliteration: Accuracy/Damage/Recharge/Endurance, Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance, Touch of Death: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance, Impervium Armor: Resistance, and Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance/Recharge had more availability Redside.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
/edit
forgot villains, who can't usually sell their stuff and buy what they want like heroes- in their case, saving merits and buying specific recipes is probably the most efficient way to go about things.
The non-random, non-scientific, non-etc. etc. data also counted a total of 240 pool Cs of the types chosen listed for sale Redside. At that same time 368 were listed blue side. This data does show that there is more availability blueside. However, "probably the most efficient way to go about things" is hyperbole.
Feel free to collect more up-to-date and more comprehensive data to demonstrate your point if you feel I am mistaken. -
Quote:Players are enticed to buy items from gold farmers/RMTers when items are difficult to obtain.Originally Posted by Old_Macdonald
Eva, it's not about blame, it's about fact. It's not about being ebil, it's about being making money. While this practice may not be good for the game as a whole, this is not about the game, it's about business. Gold farmer sites send out tons of emails to Elicit people to buy
from them. Inflating the market is just one way of enticing people to but from them.
If you choose to be naive about it that is fine. If you really want to get people to drink in your drinking game, how about adding this to your game: Everytime you talk about something you know nothing about, people take a drink. that way you will assure that people playing your game will indeed get drunk.
Developers make items difficult to obtain.
Developers are goldfarmers/RMTers.
If you choose to be naive about it that is fine...
...or everything I said and everything you said is totally wrong.
I remember saying the same thing to you. I remember another player also saying the same thing to you. I remember supporting my point with charts, graphs, examples, logic, reason and mathematics. I remember you supporting your point with "but PvP IOs". I remember explaining, and someone else explaining, that the PvP example was irrelevant.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
We'll assume you know what you're talking about when you provide proof. Till then we'll assume you're full of . . .
Thus, like you said, I assume you're full of ....
Allow me to demonstrate how one properly discusses a topic...
There is a mathematical break-even point (truly it is a break-even area) where players are encouraged to run out of supergroup mode to gain the most prestige. For example: ff the exchange rate is around 10 to 1, players would make more prestige at level 50 by playing outside of SG mode and converting Inf to prestige.Quote:Originally Posted by Fulmens
Neuronia: 10 inf -> 1 prestige? Seriously?
A fully functional SG base (that's one got teleporters to EVERYWHERE blueside) is somewhere in the 5-10 million prestige range.
You get around 5-10 million inf for a single ITF, don't you? I haven't checked lately.
You're asking for ONE player to be able to buy the prestige for an entire base in ONE day, playing ordinary content on teams.
Even the most aggressive basebuilders only tend to ask for 50:1, 100:1 or 150:1 (based on this thread.
At the current rate of 1,000,000 inf for 2,000 prestige (500 to 1) players are encouraged to run in SG mode. Somewhere between the 2 points is the breakeven point for level 50s. A quick and dirty test with a level 50 in SG mode got these results:
You have defeated PPD Awakened
You gain 3,198 influence.
Prestigious Company gains 16 prestige.
You have defeated PPD Unleashed
You gain 8,277 influence.
Prestigious Company gains 53 prestige.
The Influence was halved due to SG mode. So... 3198 x 2 = 6396 normal Influence earned. I trade half of that to earn 16 prestige...
3198 Inf = 16 Prestige = 199.875 Inf / prestige for PPD Awakened
8277 Inf = 53 Prestige = 156.17 Inf / Prestige for PPD Unleashed
If the conversion rate was 10 to 1 level 50s would be encouraged to run out of SG mode. In SG mode at level 50 one would gain 3198 Inf and 16 Prestige for a PPD Awakened. Out of SG mode at 10 to 1 at level 50 one would gain 6396 Inf. Converting half of that at via 10 to 1 grants --> 3198 / 10 = 320 Prestige. 320 Prestige is much more than 16 prestige.
Thus, the break-even point is somewhere around 200 Inf per prestige at level 50. The current rate is 500 Inf per prestige. Any numbers below 200 would mean SG mode is a bad idea to turn on. Some margin should probably be utilized as well. -
Try to get to know the people behind the characters. Global Friends and Global chat channels greatly help.
/gfriend @Supergroupmate
/chanjoin SupergroupName -
Quote:So my character named "Tank" belongs in this thread? I thought it was cool.Originally Posted by Noxilicious
Every name that basically just lists your powersets and/or your AT.
My favorite is still Firekintroller with honourable mention for CONTROLLLER. I actually think he also had a little brother called DOMMINATOR.
Edit: Actually, the sad part about those two names is that they suggest there are actually toons named Controller and Dominator. -
How experienced are both of you? Are you more interested in long-term or starting off strong?
Long-term, experienced players: I'd go with Fire/Sonic Corruptors or really X/Sonic Corruptors. 2x Dispersion Bubble, put the Hula-Hoop of Doom on each other, stand near each other, get into melee, and start chucking fireballs. Sonic will keep you alive. You get massive resists and mez protection. Fire does a lot of AoE damage and Rain of Fire and Fireball both work from "melee range". Cones aren't as effective point blank. -
It may not be a bug.
Post your Mids build here.
Go into the game. Bring up the combat attribute monitor. Then take a screenshot and/or type out all of the powers and effects modifying your defense.
Doing this will easily identify what is the issue. -
The links appear to be having issues but...
Issue 17 Overview
Quote:pohsyb explaining how it worksIn-Game E-mail: You can now use in-game e-mails to send Influence/Infamy to your own characters or to other players' characters via in-game e-mails. (You still cannot send Influence, Infamy, or items from a Hero to a Villain or vice versa.)
Quote:1. Logon RichHero
2. Send Awesomething to @Myself
3. Note that you have new mail with Awesomething attached
4. Log off RichHero.
5. Log on PoorVillain.
6. Note you have Email with Awesomething attached.
7. Try to claim it greedy villain, go on I dare you.
8. No you cannot have item! You are villain!
9. Log on PoorHero.
10. Note you have Email with Awesomething attached.
11. Claim Awesomething. -
An ideal team would need no additional survivability. Corrs, unbuffed from outside sources, can survive hordes of Romans on their own merits when played intelligently. Lots of IOs and inspirations help too. See here for example. Resist and Defense buffs from Corruptors are irrelevant on a 100% ideal team.
I suspect that at least 1 Kinetics, probably 2, and maybe 3+ were involved. You want the whole team Fulcrum Shifted, all the time. If your team spreads out you can have Fulcrum Shifts in every direction. I suspect other Corrs brought debuffs. Radiation and Cold are the two I'd suspect most. -
Pick of 18 minute time. I was not a part of this in any way.
Once you get under 20 minutes lag plays a huge roll.
The final mission's defeat 300 romans has an interesting conundrum. The more a team spreads out the faster they can defeat Romans. The more a team spreads out the more lag occurs. A fine line must be walked.
Sadly, server also plays a roll. I play on a lot of servers. Even at non-peak times some servers have longer loads than others do in their peak times. I have a video of a 25 minute ITF time where each mission took over 60 seconds for the server to load each map. I do not mean personal map loading time. The server needs to create the map and then you need to load onto the map. The first step (server needs to create map) varies by what server you are on and when you do the run. -
Please, I'm begging anyone who understands their point to please show me what they are talking about. Please, I don't understand what is going on in this thread.
Quote:Current SituationHere's a blank for you to fill in. Just write over the _____s. This is what you think Respec Recipes will look like on villainside if list amounts and bid amounts were displayed. The current situation is displayed below.
Respec Recipe. Villainside
____ for sale. ____ bidding
Last 5: ___, ___, ___, ___, ___
Amount sold daily average: ____
Amount found daily average: ____
Current highest bid: ___
Current lowest list: ___
Amount Sold off market: ___
Prices of all sold off market: ___, ___, ...
Pretend these are daily averages.
Respec Recipes. Villainside
41 For Sale. 451 Bidding
Last 5: 138M, 138M, 180M, 140M, 138M
Amount Sold daily average: 10 (3 of the last 5 were listed today, 11 hours into the day. I'll just assume later is more peak hours. Total estimation on my part. I made this number up)
Amount found daily average: 20. Total estimation.
Display Bid/List Amount -- My estimation
Respec Recipe. Villainside
40 for sale. 300 Bidding
Last 5: 165M, 167M, 165M, 160M, 167M
Amount Sold daily average: 10
Amount found daily average: 20
Current highest bid: 162M
Current lowest list: 167M
Amount Sold off market: 2
Prices of all sold off market: 150M, 155M -
Quote:"Buyer goes to market, sees 100 bids and the highest is 2,000,000. The buyer seeing this knows that a seller would not list the item seeing these numbers"Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Why on earth would ANYONE who sees the highest bid of 2mil bid 50 mil over top?
I mean besides being a moron?
The buyer knows no one would sell for that amount... Why would anyone see bid over that? The answer is so he actually buys his item. How is that being a moron?
The item we are talking about is a Luck of the Gambler. Luck of the Gamblers sell for between 100M and 200M. Please provide me with different numbers if those figures are not accurate.
I assume a buyer would be paying 150 to 200M off the market. A player with a modicum of intelligence can realize he could bid 100M on the market, entice sellers to sell to him, purchase the item, and sell the item off market. This bidding higher creates competition. People see the high bid of 100M and outbid that amount. Many players place bids on the market trying to acquire these items.
The point I am trying to convey is that currently, in the game now, there are dozens of players paying 150M right now for luck of the gamblers daily. Currently, in the game right now there are dozens of players selling their LotGs for 150M daily. Why aren't these buyers bidding 150M on the market now? Why aren't these sellers listing for 150M?
You guys do realize that standing on the market (meaning outstanding bids/lists, meaning unfulfilled) the "highest bid amount" is always lower than the "lowest list amount". Perhaps that is the point of confusion for you. Whenever those two overlap a transaction occurs. That is why the standing bid amount cannot be above the standing list amount. -
Quote:The buyer sees the highest bid of 2,000,000 and bids 50,000,000 over top of it. Or 100M, or 200M.Originally Posted by Fing M C
Buyer goes to market, sees 100 bids and the highest is 2,000,000. The buyer seeing this knows that a seller would not list the item seeing these numbers. The buyer asks around if anyone has one and low and behold, someone does and it is even on the same server same side. Buyer and seller reach an agreed price and that is all it takes. Does that clarify why your idea won't work to help the market?
Why doesn't the buyer, who paid more off market, bid more on the market? -
Why is there a person paying you a lot of money off the market and not bidding anywhere near that amount on the market?
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Thank you for showing me your support in the first paragraph.
However, in the second paragraph, why is there a person paying you a lot of money off the market and not bidding anywhere near that amount on the market?
In the third paragraph, that is changed and I don't believe it ever occurred. The highest bid goes to the lowest list if the bid is higher than the list. There are "odd things" that happen when two people bid the exact same amount. -
You don't have a plan. Your plan doesn't work.
People will place bids on the market. These bids will compete with each other.
People will list items for sale on the market. These lists will compete with each other.
Everything will go on like it normally does.
When someone lists an item low it will sell to the highest current bidder.
Why pay off market high prices when you can place a bid on the market for less?
Show me, with an example, why my statements don't work.
*EDIT*
Or hell, look at my example and tell me how everything is wrong. -
Quote:No. Fill out the example. Show me.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Nah that's okay. I agree with you now.
I've got my market schemes ready for when they implement this.
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Quote:Everything you have said in this thread so far is absolutely and utterly insane. Put some numbers to your claims. Show me an example.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Right. People sell them off market because they can get MORE for off market.
Full stop.
People put stuff on the market because they want to make money. Your system would make that more difficult. Make it harder to inf via the market and you kill any incentive there is to sell items on the market. Worse case items would become more expensive, as folks would no longer undercut each other, they would list consecutively higher and higher prices.
The current blind system keeps everyone guessing and competitive by helping to keep prices low. Your system would be stupendously easy to manipulate.
Actually you know what I've changed my mind, go ahead and list them.
*EDIT* I don't understand why anything you are saying is true. Demonstrate it to me with an example. Educate me. -
Quote:I am aware that people sell PvP IOs off the market. People sell PvP IOs off the market because they are unable to get the price they want on the market.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
No need to fill out the form when there ALREADY IS an example of this. PVP IOs.
Even with them selling at the inf cap of 2 billion inf ON the market there are ALREADY NUMEROUS people selling off market for 3-4 billion.
What stops players from getting the price they want on the market when List amounts and Bid amounts are displayed?
The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If you think otherwise show me. Make a demonstration. Show me what an item would look like, bid amounts, list amounts, and transactions off market. -
Quote:Fill out the form. Show me how its possible and why people wouldn't use the market.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The problem is if folks can't get a good price for their items, they will sell them off market. There has to be an incentive to waste your time putting stuff on the market for there to be stuff or buyers to buy. Supply just doesn't magically show up on the markets. Someone has to be willing to put their stuff ON THE MARKET.
If they can get a better price off market, they will sell OFF MARKET. See the PVP IOs being sold off market as a recent example. -
tl:dr
I do not understand the point several of you are trying to make. I am trying to understand your point. Please, fill out an example at the bottom as to what would happen so I can learn what you mean. Here is the specific post I am referring to:
Quote:Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller.
For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth.
I believe I count at least three people who agree with this post. Here are some links to what appear to me to be agreement. If I am wrong about your agreement I apoligize. Please let me know if I am mistaken:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...74#post2642874
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...15#post2643215
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...50#post2645950
I am begging you, please, show me an example of how a market would look with changes described in the original post in place. I'll make a form for you. I'll even make an example myself. I understand you will be making numbers up out of thin air. I will be making up numbers out of thin air as well. Just please, give it your best guess and you can say "I'm estimating here" where you are etc.
Current Situation
Pretend these are daily averages.
Respec Recipes. Villainside
41 For Sale. 451 Bidding
Last 5: 138M, 138M, 180M, 140M, 138M
Amount Sold daily average: 10 (3 of the last 5 were listed today, 11 hours into the day. I'll just assume later is more peak hours. Total estimation on my part. I made this number up)
Amount found daily average: 20. Total estimation.
Display Bid/List Amount -- My estimation
Respec Recipe. Villainside
40 for sale. 300 Bidding
Last 5: 165M, 167M, 165M, 160M, 167M
Amount Sold daily average: 10
Amount found daily average: 20
Current highest bid: 162M
Current lowest list: 167M
Amount Sold off market: 2
Prices of all sold off market: 150M, 155M
Quote:Here's a blank for you to fill in. Just write over the _____s. This is what you think Respec Recipes will look like on villainside if list amounts and bid amounts were displayed
Respec Recipe. Villainside
____ for sale. ____ bidding
Last 5: ___, ___, ___, ___, ___
Amount sold daily average: ____
Amount found daily average: ____
Current highest bid: ___
Current lowest list: ___
Amount Sold off market: ___
Prices of all sold off market: ___, ___, ... -
I apologize. I'll retract my statements. I made this paragraph bigger because it's more important. I made the following paragraph in small, fine print because it is me just trying to save face. Mostly, I just use a bunch of big words and try to explain what I was thinking to make myself sound like I know what I'm talking about. I suggest you don't read it.
My first draft of this post started off by defining "Demand" is exacting terms. Explaining how it is a curve, has different values at different points, and is a rate. I had graphs and examples and everything. Then I was going to explain about substitute goods. First, when comparing perfect substitutes price is the only consideration. Examples of how this applies to some CoH items like procs. Then I was going to go into non-perfect substitutes. Explain how Demand can shift based on price and quality. I had examples ready. There are many items on the market with sub-level 50s for sale and at prices below the level 50. My explanation would have been that the lower quality caused lower Demand. People simply demand these sub-50 items less. The demand has never moved, it's always been there, always been the same, and always been low. Then I ran into Luck of the Gamblers, and Numinas etc. Essentially, lower level is better in almost every way (minor difference for LotG). Except there are those items for sale on the market at sub-level 50s, and they are cheaper (not the superlow ones though). The substitute good, which is better in every way, quality/price etc. is better. Yet it's cheaper... and it's for sale. The Demand that should be there isn't there. Apparently yes, the Demand has shifted. As I thought about it more I remembered all the times I've heard "I didn't even know there was a 'For Sale" checkbox. Then I thought about all the times I've gone to the market and never cared to educate myself on the market situation and just bought whatever. Apparently yes, the Supply in this case is a quality factor to the item that drives up demand for substitute goods. Though, Roderick's examples does have many flaws that someone else will have to sort out. -
Quote:Make up an example like Roderick did. Use something totally unrelated to City of Heroes. Then let's e-mail it to some economics professors and see what they think. Make sure you use a phrase that is similar to "the largest supply is here so the largest demand is here".Originally Posted by UberGuy
There's demand for widgets, of which A and B are examples, and then proportion of that demand for A vs B within that. Why wouldn't we call it demand?
