Cathulhu

A bit off topic, but I find this all quite interesting and amusing.

Many PvPers have traditionally made fun of RPers, yet here we people who are PvPing and are getting more into their roleplaying "Fight Police" then most RPers out there. Having been away from the forums and PvP for almost a year the question I have, and I am quite serious is...

Are the "Fight Police" RPers who have discovered the fun of PvP or are they
PvPers who have discovered the joys of RPing?

HP Lovecat

You keep ignoreing the VERY NAME OF THE BADGE. REFORMED!!!

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That does not jive. The other half of the badge is called VILLAIN. Thus the phrase "Once you weere considered a villian..."

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I view that as completely irrelevant. We're not talking about the other half of the badge. We're talking about Reformed. You are trying to argue something different than what you were arguing before. Such shifting of goalposts may work in high school debates, but in the real world people call you on it.


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I have not shifted the goal posts. You have failed to read the very opeing part of my post. Something even a high school debater can manage (Yes this cat can be just as snarky, and in this case correct.) My very FIRST post, in the very FIRST pargraph, in the third and forth sentence says just that. My position has stayed the same. Here it is....

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You seem to fail to understand why this change was made. The Hero badge is called REORMED. The villain badge is called VILLAIN. It is the same badge and has been designed such that when they allow crossovers a villains badge will be renamed to and the text changed to an appropriate badge.


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heres the text from the Arc

http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Gaussian

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So the parts where things are "about to get much worse between your organizations" and you were "confronted by Longbow" don't reasonably lead you to conclude that Longbow thought you were on the wrong side? If you're on the wrong side from a hero's perspective, aren't you being considered a villain, and don't Longbow consider themselves heroes?


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So "about to get much worse between your organizations" and "confronted by Longbow" makes you a VILLAIN. Please, that hardly justifies the word Villain.

The police have confrontedme before. I am not a villain. They didn't consider me a villain. Organizations confront each other all the time and relations get worse. Hardly ranks up there with calling the members VILLAINS. Not unless you weaken the word VILLAIN to a rediculious level.

And still you must ignore the name of the badge. You keep dodging that. REFORMED. When used with the phrase VILLAIN in a game about HEROES and VILLAINS that hardly sounds like something that a disagreement between two organizations would use.

As I said you have to stretch AND ignore the TITLE, as well as the other half of the badge (Which I mentioned at the start of this )

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If you refuse to consider it from Longbow's perspective - and it's defeating THEM that gets the badge - then there's no useful dialogue to be had.

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Yes you defeat them. THEY DON'T GIVE YOU THE BADGE. furthermore how are you reformed in there eyes. Reformed means you did something wrong and have since stopped doing it, made amends, etc. You have done none of those so how can you be REFORMED! You keep dodging the very name of the badge. Killing 1000 long bow does not = REFORMED!

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Can you in a weird way make it look like it fits if you ignore the villain side of the badge, and ignore the title itself, and then squint real hard.

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You go ahead with your making up explanations out of whole cloth and then accuse me of doing something wrong by doing the same. See how far that gets you.

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I am making up nothing. You have failed to show how you have reformed. You have only a stretched way of showing that If you view it from the POV of LB and If you twist the phrase in the mission arc of an inter organizational fight to be the same as VILLAINY and if you IGNORE THE NAME OF THE BADGE "REFORMED" then you can try to claim the badge.

Or instead we can take what is quite aparent. The name "Reformed" combined with text means to get the badge you must be a villain who reforms.

Given the two ways of viewing this one is a stretch and the other is pretty straight forward.

HP Lovecat

That does not jive. The other half of the badge is called VILLAIN. Thus the phrase "Once you weere considered a villian..."

heres the text from the Arc

http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Gaussian

No where in there does it say you are a villain by any resonable definition of the word.

Even if you wish to try to stick a weak definition that long bow considered you to be trying to stop them = villain, the word reformed denotes you did something wrong. How can you be reformed when you never a real villian except in the eyes of those who made a mistake. See how much stretching is required.

Can you in a weird way make it look like it fits if you ignore the villain side of the badge, and ignore the title itself, and then squint real hard. Sure. But when taken as a whole it's clear what they meant the badge to be awarded for.

When the Dev introduced Pillboxes, people by the text followed the dirrections. After all surrendering a Pill box is a form of defeat. Yet I don't think many people would cry foul on the devs for stopping that.

It is apparent from reading the text, the names, and the intent of the badge what is needed to get it. If the required goal was to simply kill 1000 LB then please tell me unlike other badges why there is NO MENTION NOR HINT that the badge is for doing just that, and instead the text AS WELL AS THE NAME REFORMED specifically reffers to swqitching sides.

Furthermore the badge was made LONG before the Guasian arc.

They plugged a hole that allowed people to get a badge in a way that was not intended. They have not removed your kills. They have simply made it so you must get this in the way they intended.

HP Lovecat

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1) You are being far to literal in reading the badge text/name.

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Being to literal?!? Like the rest of the badges which say what you did? The badges aside from a bit of flavor says what you are supposed to get the badge for. Feel free to tell me with text like this

"Once you were considered a villain, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow."

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I dunno. I think you can make a pretty strong case for this badge with the existing text based on what you do in Gaussian's arc, at least from Longbow's perspective.

"Considered a villain" is pretty broad. It doesn't say, "Once you lived in the Rogue Isles and were believed to be a Destined One." Then your argument might hold more merit based on the reading of badge text alone. Unfortunately, that ain't what it says.

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As far as I know Red Name refers to Devs. The Devs typed this very information ON THE BADGE.

REFORMED: Once you were considered a villain, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow.

There is your quote.

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Show me 1 redname quote just 1 that specifically says the the reformed badge was specifically for switching sides and I would agree. However you can't. I KNOW you can't because that quote does not exist as of this writing. Most of those other badges were acquired with exactly the same amount of metagaming so they are just as "unintended" to get.

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HP Lovecat

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1) You are being far to literal in reading the badge text/name.

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Being to literal?!? Like the rest of the badges which say what you did? The badges aside from a bit of flavor says what you are supposed to get the badge for. Feel free to tell me with text like this

"Once you were considered a villain, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow."

What you think the badge is for? YES THAT IS A DIRECT QUESTION.

It is a CLEAR definition of what the badge is for. Combine it with its name on villain side "VILLAIN", You know as in a BAD guy, and the name they would get if said badguy changed to a hero , "REFORMED" as in a bad guy who has changed, and how else ARE you suposed to interpret it?

Using YOUR logic you would have to IGNORE ALL OF THE TEXT INCLUDING THE TITLE!!!

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2) There was a way to fix this without any coding needed: Change the text & name of the badge.

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Yes there was. But they wished to maintain the name and the meaning of the badge as well as the story behind it and the Villain -> Reform change.

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3) All the other badges that I mentioned above require metagaming to get. That would be the only understandable reason for preventing heroes from this badge, yet they failed to do so to the other badges.

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NO THEY DID NOT ALL REQUIRE META GAMING. I only looked at the first four, but those badge decriptions match the requirements used to get them AND those requirments were met by fullfilling legal missions. NOTE that that does NOT apply to reformed. The description and NAME are NOT being met by those going for the badge heroside.

Once more here are some of the ones you claimn you must metagame.

"You've defeated 250 Cold Demons, making you Coldhearted."
"You've cut down more than your fair share of the Thorns."

Yep I did those exact things in missions provided by the devs. Where is the Metagaming! YES A NOTHER DIRECT QUESTION.

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4) Arachnos Rising history badge is STILL displaying on heroes that touch a plaque in Warburg. Heroes have no hope to ever complete this badge, yet the reformed badge was "fixed" first.

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Why yes. Because the reformed badge can be completed. Generally you fix holes that lead an issue BEFORE you fix a hole that dead ends.

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Instead of wasting coding time fixing a "problem" that could be solved with a text change, they diverted coding time from actual bugs.

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They don't want to change the text. They put very specific text on the badge. People foiund a hole to get around the text. Their decission was to stop up the hole and preserve the meaning. Your solution is for them to give up the meaning and leave the hole open thus cheapening the crossover badge meaning.

Forgive spelling error please. Typing fast.

HP Lovecat

Excelent Point. You may be right and IF the reason they are doing this is strictly from a litteral point of view then I agree whole heartedly that they should reconsider it.

However the probelm for them is that if the reason they are doing this is due to them preparing for crossing over ("Some one you know has recently died", No not that one) then they understandably can't say anything.

However I suspect my interpretation has more basis, though I could be wrong, since I believe (Though I may be mistaken) that in the past when people have aquired badges they shouldn't have they simply flicked the badge switch OFF. If this badge was impossible to get heroes side for literary reasons then that would have been the easiest way, and they could post their reason.

On the other hand Ex Libris very POINTEDLY said "NO COMMENT." That "No Comment" says a mouthful.

I could go into my theory on the invention badge but I expect enough flames for my "Reformed" post that I will refrain until I get a few more points in Fire Damage Resistance.

Please Note. I sympathize with those who have had to put their goal of obtaining this badge on hold, and sincerly hope this is rectified either by the release of crossing over, or if that is NOT on the agenda then recinding this decision.


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Cathulhu gets at the textual reasoning behind the Reformed change, but makes the conclusion that it's related to side-switching as an eventual reality in this game. There's another possibility that looks increasingly likely with the change to base crafting counting for the Artisan series. That reason is literalism.

Now, this is speculative and based on two whole data points, which really isn't enough to form a pattern, but can at least imply a direction. With the changes to the badge UI in Issue 13, we got more informative progress bars and hint texts. My speculation is that now, someone has decided to go through all of those hints, names and descriptions for badges and see if any were awarding in ways contrary to same in a very literal fashion. Hence, Reformed, with both name and description implying a villain that switched sides, and the Artisan series, with texts that explicitly state that they are for Invention crafting, get changed.

Those changes are logical and valid, from a literalist point of view. The question becomes whether or not they are really wise decisions. My opinion of that is that they aren't. They are reductive changes that are only going to serve to alienate members of the community. They are minor annoyances, to be sure, but those are often worse than painful changes. With a big, painful change, it happens and it's over, like a short, sharp headache. Minor annoyances, on the other hand, are like a long, dull discomfort at the base of the skull, they may not cause you to have to immediately stop what you're doing and address them, but they make it hard to focus on what you're doing over a longer term. At least, that what it's like for me. Those minor annoyances stick with me for a long time and add up. I've quit jobs and dropped classes over a build up of such little things in real life.

I would ask here that those in charge reconsider before continuing on this literalist path, even if there are very few more things in the game that need to be changed to reflect the literal meaning of the text. Instead, think about changing the text to something more ambiguous and just leave the methods of earning these things as they are. It will make for less headaches (Yes, I referenced my own metaphor from the previous paragraph. Wanna make something of it? ) for you and your customers in the future.

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No I did not say that. There are NO costume peices that say "YOU ARE AN ALIEN FROM THE MOON!" Costume pieces are whatever the players wish to make of them up to and including that this is simply an alien mask bought at Walmart for a costume contest and it is being worn by a normal human.

Your analogy FAILS.

The badge in question says
Once you were considered a villain, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow.

Notice this make a definite referance to the character changing sides, as well as the name REFORMED, and the name before you bacame a hero "VILLAIN".

VILLAIN becomes REFORMED.

Is this that difficult to understand? Please reread my post below for further clarification.

HP Lovecat


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Since when they come out with crossover they need to flip that switch on so villains crossing over can have it, it is pointless to flip it off for a few months, or however long it will take, just to flip it back on when they institute crossovers. Furthermore it would upset those who already have it for a few months for NO gain on the devs/game continuity part.

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So, basically what you're saying is: Since one day there might be a moon zone, we should remove alien faces from the costume creator. Can't have anyone creating an alien, since that will someday be an unlockable costume part from the moon zone TF.

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People seem to fail to understand why this change was made.

The Hero badge is called REORMED. The villain badge is called VILLAIN. It is the same badge and has been designed such that when they allow crossovers a villains badge will be renamed too and the text changed to an appropriate badge.

VILLIAN Badge Text on villain side: Longbow now officially considers you a Supervillain.

REFORMED Badge Text on hero side: Once you were considered a villain, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow.

See how they are connected.

Iscanned several of the badges that Snowglobe listed, and unlike Reformed, they make NO MENTION of switching sides.
REFORMED by the very name as well as the text, says you have switched sides.

Here is the text on Reformed
"Once you were considered a VILLAIN, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow."

Heres the text on the first few snowglobe listed
"You've defeated 250 Cold Demons, making you Coldhearted."
"You've cut down more than your fair share of the Thorns."

Notice the difference. A hero can earn any of the above badges since the badge text is true. You will defeat the Cold Demons. You will Defeat the Thorns. However you have NOT and at this point in time can not switch sides so the text as well as the name of the badge is such that heroes can't get it until they switch sides.

Notice they have not taken away your kill credits up to the point of the fix. They have simply stopped giving you credit from here on out. After all a hero has no business getting the badge.

Now I'm sure some will say "Why not take away the badge from all those Heroes who have it." The answer is actually quite simple.

Unless they REMOVED all the credit from longbows killed it can't be done long term. Sure they can flip the switch to make the badge disappear from those heroes who have it. But the minute they flip the switch back on the heroes would again have it.

Since when they come out with crossover they need to flip that switch on so villains crossing over can have it, it is pointless to flip it off for a few months, or however long it will take, just to flip it back on when they institute crossovers. Furthermore it would upset those who already have it for a few months for NO gain on the devs/game continuity part.

Some will say, "Well they should just eliminate ALL credit for the badge." They are not doing this I suspect because It would upset FAR more people, especially since many of those people legitimatly earned it.

However by making the Longbow on heroes side not count (What they have done) it preserves game continuity and the meaning of the badge. If they did not lock the hero badge earning then every hero would be able to get the reformed badge without reforming.

Why don't they say this? Because NC Soft/ Marketing does not want the information that they are soon going to have crossover released yet.

Simply put they have realized that there was a problem where by people were earning credit towards something that they should not have been able to get credit for. Rather then be @$%#& and say, "All right were taking away all credit towards the badge" they have simply said for the time being we are removing this method of getting the badge. From all availabe evidence you will be able to finish aquiring the badge at a future point in time.

HP Lovecat



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People seem to fail to understand why this change was made.

The Hero badge is called REORMED. The villain badge is called VILLAIN. It is the same badge and has been designed such that when they allow crossovers a villains badge will be renamed too and the text changed to an appropriate badge.

VILLIAN Badge Text on villain side: Longbow now officially considers you a Supervillain.

REFORMED Badge Text on hero side: Once you were considered a villain, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow.

See how they are connected.

Iscanned several of the badges that Snowglobe listed, and unlike Reformed, they make NO MENTION of switching sides.
REFORMED by the very name as well as the text, says you have switched sides.

Here is the text on Reformed
"Once you were considered a VILLAIN, but now you walk the path of the straight and Narrow."

Heres the text on the first few snowglobe listed
"You've defeated 250 Cold Demons, making you Coldhearted."
"You've cut down more than your fair share of the Thorns."

Notice the difference. A hero can earn any of the above badges since the badge text is true. You will defeat the Cold Demons. You will Defeat the Thorns. However you have NOT and at this point in time can not switch sides so the text as well as the name of the badge is such that heroes can't get it until they switch sides.

Notice they have not taken away your kill credits up to the point of the fix. They have simply stopped giving you credit from here on out. After all a hero has no business getting the badge.

Now I'm sure some will say "Why not take away the badge from all those Heroes who have it." The answer is actually quite simple.

Unless they REMOVED all the credit from longbows killed it can't be done long term. Sure they can flip the switch to make the badge disappear from those heroes who have it. But the minute they flip the switch back on the heroes would again have it.

Since when they come out with crossover they need to flip that switch on so villains crossing over can have it, it is pointless to flip it off for a few months, or however long it will take, just to flip it back on when they institute crossovers. Furthermore it would upset those who already have it for a few months for NO gain on the devs/game continuity part.

Some will say, "Well they should just eliminate ALL credit for the badge." They are not doing this I suspect because It would upset FAR more people, especially since many of those people legitimatly earned it.

However by making the Longbow on heroes side not count (What they have done) it preserves game continuity and the meaning of the badge. If they did not lock the hero badge earning then every hero would be able to get the reformed badge without reforming.

Why don't they say this? Because NC Soft/ Marketing does not want the information that they are soon going to have crossover released yet.

Simply put they have realized that there was a problem where by people were earning credit towards something that they should not have been able to get credit for. Rather then be @$%#& and say, "All right were taking away all credit towards the badge" they have simply said for the time being we are removing this method of getting the badge. From all availabe evidence you will be able to finish aquiring the badge at a future point in time.

HP Lovecat



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Obviously the reformed badge was intended for villains with the "Villain" badge who switched sides and became heroes. It was removed so it will function properly once they implement falling from grace/redemption in I15.

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If that were the case then these also should have been blocked/changed:

<ul type="square">[*]Hero accessible only with the 1st mission villain side during the Valentine's event.
* Coldblooded | Coldhearted
* Hellfrost Gladiator
* Weed Whacker
* Hordeling Lasher Gladiator[*] Villain accessible only through winter event.
* Cap Buster
* Bane of Dannon[*]Hero side extremely rare spawns
* Venomous
* Tarantula Gladiator
* Blue Ink Man Gladiator[*]Villain side extremely rare spawns
* Weatherman/Weatherwoman &lt;-only 3 Outcast bosses total in CoV, under highly select conditions.
* Skull Crusher
* Regenerator
* Illusionist
* Untouchable[/list]The problem is that at least two of the villain badges (Cap Buster and Untouchable) unlock custom weapons. If the reformed badge were truly for side switching there are plenty others that should have gotten the chop at the same time, but didn't.

Side switching doesn't explain things. Sadly I think the only reason we are left with is that the developer's whim changed.

As to the Brainstorm conversions: in light of this change Fabricator should be reduced to 2,000 crafts. The 1,000 to 10,000 jump never made much sense anyways.

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Face it folks, We won't get any new missions because Positron is now in charge. You have to understand that making a new Christmas missions now requires his approval. But due to the 2004 Winterlord Holocaust, Every time a he hears someone mention "Winter Event", Posi clutches his teddy bear, curls up into a ball and can be heard to mumble...

"Oh the humanity... Like a horde of rabid squamous Piranha... Hundreds swarming over their prey... Their horrid croaking mating calls 'LV7 LFWLPL'... Frostlings left orphaned to wander the streets searching in vain for their mother... The horror, THE HORROR!!!"


This sadly is the real reason that the Winter Event has not been updated, and probably never will be.

Seriously though, a New mission for next year would be MUCH appreciated.

HP Lovecat

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New suggestion: How about unlockable base items related to the Winter Event? How about being able to add those decorated trees or some candy cane or a snow bank to our base?

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Terrific Suggestion. If they could give it a "wall" property, make that the north wall, you could then hang decorations from it and customize it. Oooooo ornaments for cats to play with. purrrrrrr

HP Lovecat

Several people have mentioned that they love the feeling of actually getting the drop at the mission complete, instead of heading to Wentworths. Here is a partial solution for the devs to consider that may make some of the people here happy.

Have an option appear on the screen upon mission completion to give a Random recipe drop IF the TF was worth that much. Then deduct the Random Drop from the merits.

Pseudo code follows.
If (MissionMerits =&gt; RandomDrop Cost) DisplayRandomDropOption;
If (RandomDropOptionSelection == "yes")
{ give RandomDrop;
MerritReward = MerritReward - RandomDropCost;
} else GiveMerrit Reward;

Over all this will almost surely help increase satisfaction due to a little thing known as "Variable Reinforcement". For those of you not familliar with it, it is one of the psycological reason for gambling is SO popular.

HP Lovecat

Post deleted by Ex Libris

You will find the devs answered a simular question to your first one over here.

Answers to Merrit system.

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Q: What is the intent and purpose of the merit system? Originally it seemed intended to be an alternate, additional, avenue for those who did not wish to use the market, or for a deterministic way to get a recipe you wanted. Now it seems like it's replacing the current system instead of adding onto it.

A: The basic intent for the Merit Reward system is to more accurately reward players for their time invested doing missions. Ultimately, what it came down to is that not all Task Forces and Strike Forces were created equal. Some take 30 minutes, some can take upwards of 10 hours. The fact that all of these Task Forces had been granting the same reward made us realize we needed to incorporate time into the reward equation. That's essentially where Merits came in.

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When a Cap SF is completed, how come the normal allotted amount of merits isnt even enough to purchase a reward from the Merit Vendor, when in the past completing such a task would at least reward the player with a recipe at the end? It would take 2 Cap SF runs to equal the purchasing power at a Merit Vendor. This is clearly NOT a selling point at all.

Secondly, I would point out that since you (and by 'you' i mean the development staff in general) have turned off the ability to execute 'quick' Cap(s) or Katies, the amount of chatter on coalition chats has been reduced to a trickle (and that is being generous). The quick Cap/Katies were great for getting coalitions active and talkative and fostering at least a sense of community. Sadly, that has appeared to have gone to the wayside.

Death by a thousand cuts is what i call the past two release issues.

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HP Lovecat

Currently I am involved with a single SG (5 person, 25 or so Alts between us) started in August. We have are mains up to Lv 47, and a few alts in their teens.

Objective. The refund for base items, as well as the decrease in base costs and rent has allowed us to make our pre I13, Spartan 8x8 base with 8 TP beacons, into a nicley decorated base with 50% more TP beacons, 100% more storage capacity, as well as a secret room which encorages us to recruit new members, all on an 8x12 plot with prestige left over.

As has been mentioned, and yes I know you are aware of it, but the Wall Glitch as well as "Rubber Banding" in the base are the only two real complaints we have had so far.

Subjective: Base salvage being removed is easier for the new players I brought in to undertand, and so far the lack of salvage storage has not been a real problem. Mind you, If you choose to increase it to 50-100 items we won't complain.

Additionally, while this has not affected us, I can see how adding either an automatic base payment feature OR a pay the rent button INSIDE the base would make some folks happier, and if easy to implement I see no downside for the game and would STRONGLY reccomend you consider it as a QOL issue.

Hope this helps, Happy Holidays Ex.

HP Lovecat

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if the MAJORITY of people hord merits like i think they will, the supply at the market will dry up, leaving ME high and dry. Or prices will rocket up even more then they are now. If i'm WRONG. No harm no foul. But i don't think i am and thus, i'm voicing my concern.

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AHHHHH, Now I see your concern, and I will readily acknowledge it is a valid one.

I think/hope the devs have it under control, and have even shown such in that they can lowered the merit cost of a "random drops" in beta.

If it turns out, as you fear, that no one is selecting "random drops", thus reducing the market supply substantially, they COULD lower the drop cost to some point where the farmers will readily see that they make more money with "random drops" then by choosing a particular IO. As an example picture what most people would choose if "random drops" cost 1 merit.

I do realize that this is dependent on the Devs doing their job and monitoring the situation. If they fail to do so , then YES, your worst case scenario is a definite possibility.

Here's hoping that the devs pay attention

HP Lovecat

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If it were I13, i'd prolly have enough merits to buy 2 LOTG IO's, but COULDN'T because the merits have been spread out over a dozen different heros.

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Pre I13 you would not be able to buy a LOTG with merits. You would have to hope you got the drop you wanted. If you like the pre I13 method you can still choose to take a random drop (In reality you buy a random drop) after completing most of the TFs. With the exception of those TFs that were heavily farmed you are no worse off now then before. Each of your alts can take a random drop, and with some of the TFs 2 or 3 random drops.

HP Lovecat

You keep using hyperbole to try to make "a minute worth of playing in SG mode" sound like a terrible ordeal.

You have so far reffered to "a minute of your time" spent thus as,

"Busting your hump!"

"play continuously as a wage slave"

"can't do anything with it, because your busy playing to pay the bills."

and

"A Pyramid Scheme" (Please look up "Pyramid Scheme". The word does not mean what you seem to think it means!")

As I said before and you haven't responded, If a minute in SG mode is "Busting your hump!" What is it when a loved one asks you to take out the trash? "A torturous trip to the very bowels of Hell, to look into the abyss and smell the stench of all that is unholy within!!!"




You said.

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Im making a judgement based on past playing experience.

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Earlier you said.

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I am operating with my past of playing the game when Bases just showed up...

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In other words you are making your assumptions based on out dated information!!!!

I just logged on for a minute with HP Lovecat. A level 50 controller designed to Buff and control. NOT to do damage. In under a minute she killed 2 death mages for 316 prestige.

I logged onto Cathulhu. A level 35 Kheldian, designed to do damage. She racked up 7,000 prestige in 15 minutes of game play.

Do you really think each SG member (in a small 5 person SG) needing to play less then a minute every 2 weeks in SG mode is such a HUGE imposition? A pyramid scheme? Or any amount of Hyperbole you choose to throw?

HP Lovecat

Most of those complaining seems to be using arguments that in reality are almost non existent.

"ThrillKillKult", you use as an example, a SG with 2000 prestige rent who finds they "bust your hump to make it" That means that on the average they have enough storage capacity for 200 Salvage, 600, inspirations and 600 enhancements!!!

To truly USE that amount of storage just how much play time do you think they are doing? How many members do you think they have!!! 50?, 25?, 10? 6? Let's say we go with the rediculus low number of 6.

That's right they each have there very own storage containers! That means they need to each make 300 Prestige to pay there rent. I can make 300 prestige in 20 seconds of gaming. Yep. Really need to BUST MY HUMP to do that.

Heck if that's "Busting your hump!" What is it when a loved one asks you to take out the trash? "A torturous trip to the very bowels of Hell, to look into the abyss and smell the stench of all that is unholy within!!!"

Forget paying rent, My question is why a SG that actually NEEDS 18 storage units isn't raking in prestige so fast that the expenditure of 1,800 is even noticed.

Never mind the fact that that, that large of an SG almost assuredly has at the VERY least a Basic control center that I13 refunded them at least 50,000 prestige. In other words the first YEAR is 100% rent free just from the saving of that one room for this mythical SMALL SG that needs 18 Storage units!!!



Likewise "Snowglobe", you're proposing an SG group that is so big AND so active that it needs storage for OVER 200 costume pieces (6 storage bins) yet is so small or inactive that when said person carrying the costume pieces decides to leave they can't find any one to give them to. Not even a friend out side of the SG.

FURTHERMORE You're proposing an SG where this phantom costume piece supplier is so caring of his SG members and so trusting as to leave all these costume pieces in the salvage containers pre I13. Yet now post I13 he can't solve the problem by simply giving 10% of the Costume pieces to the top ten SG members in the SG group as he gets them.

Could these mythical, dysfunctional SGs exist? Sure. Are these 5 SGs anything I want the devs spending any further time modifying the game for. Nope.


HP Lovecat

Started this thread to discuss if you all wanted to start a Part 2 thread or discuss the post loss so as not to derail the origional thread or cause more post loss. Ignore this if it is incorect or I am wrong.

((I'm Not really into On Line RPing, but saw you folks are in trouble. I might sugest that

1) Some of you use Show All and copy all of your hard work to a file just incase more disappears.

2) Stop posting here as more posting could result in more of this thread disappearing. I seem to recall simular problems in the huge ED threads

3) Start up a new thread linking to this thread.

Example

{ Shadow Manor Part 2 (A New hope) - open RP }
{Quick summary then a link to here, Shadow Manor - open RP }

Hope this helps. Sorry If my suggestion is Off Topic or Incorect. If so Just ignore me. ))

HP Lovecat

My apologise for making assumtions about you. I appreciate the civility you have used in this conversation.

While I don't agree with all your points and I am not sure I have expressed mine well enough I will leave your last post with the final words on my points.

Just so you are not left with the wrong impression I do honestly hope PvP can be made to work. My favorite characters tend to be Team oriented Empaths and I have REALLY enjoyed the few occasions when I was in a WELL ballanced PvP match, struggling to keep the team going and being challenged more then 99.9% of the PvE world gives. I would say 1 of my 10 best experiances was in PvP.

[ QUOTE ]

You should take your own advice. One of the first things they teach you about in statistics is about sample size. The second thing they teach you is how to take an objective survey and not color it with prejudices. No one is convinced of your arguments because you clearly have an agenda and no matter what kind of pseudo-scientific stuff you come up with, you'll skew the results to suit your ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

I listed my Sample size. 100 players out of 600 or so (Don't have the figures in front of me) Thats a pretty good sample in most peoples book. Is my analasys perfect. Not by a long shot. But it sure as heck beats counting who has the most posts on a forum. THATS what I was responding to.

As for having an agenda, (at least if it's what you are implying) try again. I PvP at least 1-5 hours a week, I have an Ill/Empath respeced to within 90% of a PvP build (Just can't bring myself to drop PA). I would like to see a better arena, and Heavens knows I have activly posted several times for them to allow free Respecs to attract more players. Bias?!? Try again!

Take a class in statistics. What has more posts is meaningless since these forums do not represent the player base. Your average player probably doesn't even know these forums exist. NO I AM NOT KIDDING. Your sample set must be from the game itself, OR the players, OR the potential players.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

PvP: PVPers make up 2-6% of the population and PvP changes would require a lot of resources from Cryptic.
I have done some random sampling on Protector and Virtue over the last few days and the results show between 1% and 4% (Average 2.54%) of online players are in the PvP zones at any given time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did some random sampling as well:

At the time of this post:
There are exactly 596 threads in the "Badges" forum.
There are exactly 845 threads in the "PVP" forum.

This means that PVP is approximately 60% more popular than badges. Making badge hunters the minority.

So stop making new badges and fix PVP!

Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
People will not quit the game because they didn't get that pair of gloves or that one extra badge they wanted added to the game. People will quit the game if the PvP problems are ignored by the devs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but your example is flawed. A set of gloves takes no real time. Comparing it to the 1000's of Man hours needed for PvP is ludicrous.

Multiple costume sets and new zones = PvP. People do leave do to lack of new costumes and new zones. One of my friends has altitis and specificly plays the game "like a barbie doll" Make a character, Dress it up real nice, Run it for 5 or so levels showing it off, Rinse Repeat. Another plays almost purley with the costume designer and has no real desire to interact. Yes he pays $12 a month just to have a virtual dress up area.



[ QUOTE ]
If you fix it, they will come. It will attract a whole new crowd to the game if it becomes well known for its PvP, as opposed to scaring them away, like it is now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a nice thought but so far there is little or no evidence of this. And worse still you are assuming it CAN be fixed. Some bugs just are impossible to fix. Look at Windows.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. My post was meant to show WHY Cryptic is doing what they are doing and why it makes sense from a business position. It is not to judge what some players may consider to be the "right way'" OR the "wrong way" to handle the situation according to that person point of View. You are arguing how you would like to see it done. Yet your very statements show that it is from emotion, not business point of view. While those emotions are fully justified from what I can tell, It still does not change the fact that from a business POV, PvP is a small percentage of players and the resources necessary to make most of the changes the PvPers want are better spent on other areas.


[ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't ask me what percentage of the player base was heavily into bases or heavily into playing Dominators, and yet both of these features are flawed, and need fixing, and will most likely get it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I would ask those things, At least if I was a smart business owner. Resources ARE limited. You put your resources to where they do the most good. Restaurants stop serving certain dishes all the time because they require too much work and just are not popular enough. Do you honestly think that business DOESN'T work based on popularity of product? If so then I am afraid we have reached an impasse as your basic theories of business do not agree with mine and most other people.

[ QUOTE ]

quote]When you put money into something 5 times in a row, and fail all 5 times

[/ QUOTE ]

Fail?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Failed, at least as far as cryptic is concerned. A handful of people using PvP zones does not make them worth the investment of money. This is a business, NOT a charity, The same effort would have resulted in 4 to 10 NEW zones, and MANY other extras. That includes a new zone for all those who want a level 40-50 area. What would make more people happy? That's the question they need to ask.

[ QUOTE ]

Did you see the test of RV when there was auto-leveling to 40? PvP still draws plenty of support, WHEN IT WORKS.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, Unfortunately I missed it

How many players were on and how long did it last?

[ QUOTE ]


You're seriously wrong. You are basing your figures on a snapshot, and on your own inferences. You have no way of knowing how many people


[/ QUOTE ]

I have taken time to try to get an idea as to these figures. You can't even give me an estimate. In order to tackle a problem like this we need data which though my sampling may be flawed does give an idea on where people stand. Cryptic has that data and I am sure it shows what I am saying to be the case. Either that or Cryptic is full of people who are in on a conspiracy to sabotage PvP and reduce profits.

Dev: "Hey Statesman I can fix the Arenas and are numbers show 40% of the players would love PvP."
Statesman: "Shut up, I hate those things and the people who it would make happy, I want them to leave my Precious game. MY PRECIOUSE"

Or

Dev: "1 % of the Player base ranks PvP as more important than New Zones, 78% rank New zones as more important. Where do you want us to focus Statesman."
Statesman: "My business degree suggests we focus on the 78%. Make it so #1."

Which sounds like the real situation?

[ QUOTE ]
- pvp very casually, but still appreciate the presence of pvp in COX
- would pvp a lot, but don't because of bugs


[/ QUOTE ]

But these people are unimportant to the mix from a business stand point. They will also enjoy the other stuff instead (New zones, costumes, Inventions, etc)

[ QUOTE ]

- want to try pvp but are scared off
- want to try pvp but don't know how to start


[/ QUOTE ]

And now you are touching on the other half of my post. The real reason people avoid PvP in my opinion. They get slaughtered, Griefed, Perceive many of the players to use cheap tactics, feel their builds are gimped, etc. Of course their scared off.

[ QUOTE ]

Cryptic INSTIGATED PvP features in this game, and because of that, they have a responsibility to maintain them. It's not throwing good money after bad, it's patching up what was broken when you put it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

No cryptic has a responsibility to make money and keep as many costumers as it can happy and paying. It is a BUSINESS! Not a charity.


[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and every time you get a salvage drop, think of PvP, because half the salvage recipes are for PvP items. Turrets, defences, widgets to rebuild broken stuff, defence screens. Now tell me that PvP is irrelevant. .

[/ QUOTE ]

PvP is Irrelevant to Cryptic AT THIS POINT IN TIME. All those things took time and money to make. And almost NO ONE uses them. Worse still there is little evidence that pouring more money into fixing these will draw in new players. Until someone can show Cryptic that they will get a lot of new costumers, OR make a lot of current costumers happy OR show them a simple, low resources, and low impact on other areas of the game method for improving PvP it will be on the back burner. At least that is how I interpret Cryptic&amp;#8217;s stance.


[ QUOTE ]

It's all very well for Lighthouse to point out that this was developed as a PvE game, but you know, it wasn't US who put the PvP features in, it was the Devs, and since they opted to do that, we're well within our rights to ask them to make those features work.

Frankly, it doesn't matter how many people you or I might think PvP in this game. That's not important. What's important is that the Devs take care of what they introduced.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. At least from Cryptics point of view, and after all it&amp;#8217;s their decision to make. What&amp;#8217;s important to the Devs is to do what Cryptic wants, and that is make money. Money is made by using your resources in the most efficient way possible. You are continuing to confuse what YOU want with what is in Cryptics best interest. I will agree it would be nice for them to fix the arena. However I can see the big picture which is for Cryptic to make as many people as happy as possible within their limited budget.




[ QUOTE ]

'Let's put chilli on the menu!'
'This chilli is way too hot.'
'Look, only a few people are eating our chilli.'
'Hey, manager, could you fix this chilli?'
'No, we have to prioritise all our other dishes. Only a few of you are eating the chilli.'
'But the chilli is really hot.'
'Sorry, this wasn't a chilli restaurant when it opened.'
'But I like chilli. Could you just make it a little less hot?


[/ QUOTE ]

And restaurants do this all the time. They add items to the menu, find they take to much kitchen resources and to few people are ordering them and they pull them off the menu. Burger King, McDs, Jack in the Box all add stuff. Some thy keep, Some they don't. It's a good business model.


You continue to view this from "What you want". Many of those things I would also like. However My post is about the reality of the game, the business and why Cryptic has taken this stand. If cryptic could magically wave a wand and fix arena bugs they would. So would I. However it takes money to fix those bugs and based on there Data that money is far better spent elsewhere. It's as simple as that. You can shout till your blue. But until you can show some hard evidence that it is in Cryptics best interest, blue is all you will get.

[ QUOTE ]
It's very common for people to /hide and avoid being listed when they're PvPing. Stalkers, for example, will often do that, so that you can't tell there's a stalker in the zone.

I've been in RV on several occasions when the actual population of the zone, based on who I could see running around and fighting, was some 300% of the listed population. Bear that in mind.

Add to that the number of people who PvP, but just didn't happen to be in a PvP zone or an Arena match at the time. You can't rate the popularity of taskforces, for example, by who happens to be on one at the time of your survey. But a bug in a taskforce affects anyone who might go on it.

[/ QUOTE ]



Thats why I also did a survey of Characters Outside of the zones. On protector only 6% had a PvP ranking of less then 8.2, and None had a rank over that. By comparison I have a rank of 80 or so and I don't consider myself to be a REAL PvPer. Thus it doesn't matter if they weren't in the PvP zone. I still can get a good estimate by the fact that few characters outside the PvP zones have been there and won in recent times.
You can say that maybe the PvPers outside suck, or simply haven't visited for a long enough time but neither sounds likely.

My numbers may be off by a bit, but most evidence, supports them. Look at the number of people attending tournaments. A quick search seems to indicate that they are lucky to draw a few 100 players. When you consider that the number of subscribers is 150,000 or so then that means less then 1/10 of 1 percent of players have even enough interest to do a tournament match.

What percentage of current players do you think are heavily into PvP, and how do you derive that data?

[ QUOTE ]

PvP has been SERIOUSLY invested in over the last 3 issues, and fixing what's broke isn't 'throwing good money after bad', it's simply finishing what you started.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you put money into something 5 times in a row, and fail all 5 times, then most people would consider putting money into it a sixth time to be "throwing good money after bad". What is your definition?

PvP has been tried 5 different times in variouse ways. None of those ways has managed to capture more then a handful of people. Why spend limited resources to try to fix certain elements of PvP when as I pointed out those elements are the LEAST of the problems.

So the arena crashes sometimes. Most people who might come to PvP couldn't care less about that. They want Ballance, No griefing, A decent chance to win, etc. Until that is fixed or a way around those problems is found, the only ones who will enjoy a fixed arena are 1-5% of the total game population.

Cryptic has 2 choices.

Spend Resources TRYING to make 1-5% of the population happy, and quite probably failing. Mind you their past track record seems to indicate that no matter what they TRY to do they will fail to make PvPers happy.

OR

Spend the same resources making 35-95% of the population happy with a new zone, costume pieces, and a handful of badges. All of which has generally had a 80%+ success rate.

It doesn't take a powergamer to figure out what the better build is from a business perspective.