BrandX

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

Wouldn't swapping build order invalidate people's builds when they went to level up, anyway?

Originally Posted by MaestroMavius

This line of thinking is so flawed logically it hurts my head.
It's like your saying that every single person playing should
take Stamina or they're morons.
Because, who doesn't benefit from more endurance?

>_>

<_<

Yes, it is a great buff. Yes, it can be annoying to recast constantly.
NO, it is not the 'end all be all' power you guys seem to want it to be.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that players build individually, according to their;
Concept
Playstyle
Comfort level
Et al.

It's like calling every race driver a 'Terrible racer' because they don't hit the nitro button every mile...

Originally Posted by Zem

Well, to begin with you can't SEE Stalkers! Ha!

Okay, but seriously you don't see many BS Stalkers because it's (a) lethal damage, (b) very similar to Ninja Blade which to many probably seems more thematically "Stalker-ish", and (c) there just aren't that many Stalkers around TO see.

Nothing against BS myself, but as I already have an NB Stalker my alt time is going to be spent first on Stalkers that are less like NB... such as Elec or Dark Melee. I'd probably play one if they finally came to their senses and gave Stalkers the Shield Defense set, but I don't see that happen. The devs have applied their selective double-standard of appropriateness and decided it doesn't fit the Stalker theme (whereas suddenly dual blades are "brutish" somehow).

But I digress...

Originally Posted by Umbral

Cuz, you know, that's exactly what I've been saying since my first post. /facepalm

Originally Posted by Umbral

I'm not entirely sure where I said this... anywhere.



You must be confused. That's not a toggle you're designing. That's a click power.

Toggles do no begin recharging until they turn off. No matter what, you're never going to have a toggle that shuts off automatically be permanent unless the recharge of the power is non-existent. At best (400% +rech), you'd get 71% uptime with those numbers. Unless you want to turn Granite Armor into a click power (which I don't think anyone supports), your solution wouldn't work.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

There's another fact you're overlooking.

In CoH Beta you were allowed to take any power you wanted to, and everyone ended up making ranged/defense characters. So, they came up with the AT system to stop people from playing overpowered characters and nothing BUT overpowered characters. I wasn't there myself, but I did some reading up on it. Overpowered characters, and completely gimped characters on the other end of the spectrum, were the reason the AT system exists now.

Concept is all well and good, I'm all for a good concept.

The problem I have with it is the line I keep hearing: "But they do it in comic books, why can't I do it here?"

Because this isn't a comic book. Comic books don't need to be balanced. Video games do. Especially ones played by many people at once, because someone will find a way to game the system in their favor.

Jack Emmert, the guy who originally came up with the AT system, left several years ago.
He said a lot of things were never going to happen that we have since seen happen. But no ranged/defense AT, at least not like people keep asking for.

If he was the one preventing a ranged/defense AT from happening, the current devs have had over 3 years to change their stance on it, and they haven't, which leads me to believe that the current devs have their own reasons to not give it to us. What those reasons are, I can't say. I may or may not have hit on some of them, and I hardly expect them to tell me if I did.

So, you can keep asking for a ranged/defense AT all you want, and if you get it, everyone here has the right to say "I told you so".

I'm not going to hold my breath.

Originally Posted by Steampunkette

Almost Assuredly: The Devs.

Unless you suggest taking out or revamping -all- the Tier 9 defensive powers, Granite Armor will wind up landing pretty much as-is in such an AT. If it doesn't there'll be a veritable poo-storm unless it's the "New" version of Granite Castle may or may not be putting out.

Segue from there into the fact that the -speed (while not accomplishing much beyond player frustration) is considered "Thematic" for a power that mimics DE Boulders who routinely run almost as fast as my characters... And the Devs will almost definitely keep it into the set for the thematic purpose of the -speed effect.

Which I think sucks.
-Rachel-

Edit: Oh! Unless there is no Stone Armor set for this AT.... Seeing as how it's not currently a Stalker set (the proposed defensive base of the AT) it might not be an issue at all!

Originally Posted by PennyPA

Not sure what you are getting at with stone. If anything, since we have earth assault now, I wonder how long will it be before the earth blast set request will be posted - just like the ones for a dark assault which may be a mix of DM and DB.

All in all, I was trying to point out you mentioned concept and there are players that want powersets for their concept and particular sets ported over because they don't want to be limited.

Originally Posted by Starsman

Hmmm.... Stone armor. How i hate thee. Stone armor is insanely hard to level up, it's annoyingly horrible to build "properly" if you dont want to relly on granite, and in the end you still are just "baseline". But take granite and you are a god, with huge debuffs but a god.

IOs have changed the playing field too, recharge bonuses have made it so that Granite's Penalties are down to a relatively small -dmg debuff and -speed. And as some one that has tried "tele-tanking" i can say it actually is far from a handicap to be "forced" to take teleport as a tank. If I had room I'd take it on all my non-shield or non-electric Melee tanks.

That being told, as I am as opinionated as anyone else, perhaps a bit more, I have my own ideas on how to rebalance stone, and these ideas too change constantly.

Right now, if i was able to, let's see...

Start with the big issue: Granite.

I'd make Granite and Rooted exclusive, same with Earth's Embrace. You cant activate EE while in Granite mode and activating rooted shuts down Graite. At this point just give Granite a 1 minute recharge once detoggled. That would be the extend of the nerf I'd give Granite.


As for the rest of the set:

Rooted: Remove travel power restrictions and -jump, mez protection remains unchanged on the power but all other non-mez protection attributes only work while you are on the ground (regen, -end res, -def res)

Mud Pots: reduce the endurance cost to match other damage auras, the immobilization of minions honestly does not warrant the cost. To a point I'd consider it a penalty as minions wont follow you if you move due to the lingering immobilization.

Brimstone and Crystal armors: both expand their resistance and defense to cover energy/negative/fire/cold. This alone makes Stone armor much more friendly to build. Add to both a bit of lethal resist/defense but not much. Just enough to make the set stronger to lethal than smashing, reason: Stone is harder to cut than it is to smash.

Minerals: many would consider that power great but its way too situational, enough for players to skip unless they plan to fight Psi foes all the time (otherwise inspirations work for an AV without expensive build sacrifices.)

Lets make Mineral more useful, turn it into a team buff aura similar to Grant Cover but only protecting from psi/confuse and granting perception.

Originally Posted by PennyPA

But then you would have the posts by players screaming for X powerset because their super-duper concept and they are being limited.

Why not ice armor if you have ice blast or fire/fire or en/EA or arch/nin or DP/SR, etc.? Those sets are very different and how would they be balanced when mixed or when slotted out with various IO sets?

The devs have to look at the whole game, which is what Claws is getting at. You make this AT weak, and no one would play it except for concept. Too strong, and nerfs will follow (with all the fun forum posts). I agree it is possible to figure out the numbers, but I would venture that to fit the whole game now and with what the devs have planned in the future like End Game has to be factored in.

We don't know if there will be ice or regen brutes or nin scrappers and so forth. It is not as easy to say "just don't give it to them", as mentioned above.

And Techbot's post scared me a little to hear "whatever it takes" or just make a new scale. I feel it is more complex then just throwing a few numbers around. Does SR, WP, Invul, EA, or Ice when scaled differently to "whatever it takes" work as intended? Or will one set shine and the rest be avoided for being "squishy".

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

Everyone keeps saying a tank-mage is something with Tank defenses and Blaster damage.

That isn't what a tank-mage is.

A tank-mage is a character that can do everything well, and has no real weaknesses.

Fight at range? Check.
Fight in melee? Well, there's no penalty for using ranged attacks in melee, so yes to that as well. Definite yes if Assault sets are used.
Debuff enemies? Depending on the blast set, yes.
Tank in a pinch? Yes, Willpower and Invuln would probably be pretty good at it.
Control? Dark Blast/Dark Armor would have a crap ton of control, and other sets have some as well. I'd imagine they'd probably give some in Epic pools too.
Immunity to most mez, including knockback? Yep.

That would make a character that could do most of the things the other ATs can do. In other words, a character that is good at everything, and has no real weaknesses. A tank-mage by definition.

Unless this AT is given a crippling deficiency somewhere it would end up being the best AT to play by a significant margin. Every other AT has something it cannot do, this one really has no downside to it at all.

Powergamers would flock to this AT in droves as soon as they realized that it can do all the things their tweaked out characters can do, and do a lot of them better.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

-post deleted-

Originally Posted by Tenzhi

Says who? If it was created, it'd almost certainly be a purely melee set. As I recall, BAB was complaining about an inability to make a projectile out of shields due to limitations of the game.



Build a minor defensive bonus into the offensive set and you have a Shield user who potentially doesn't primarily rely upon the shield for defense, yet still receives some minor defensive benefit from it.

Originally Posted by Tenzhi

I generally advertise my defenders as defenders, and my controllers as controllers. Whether I take Speed Boost or not depends on the character. I often wish that Siphon Speed worked more like Siphon Power and that Speed Boost was some other power that wasn't a single target buff of relatively short duration.

Originally Posted by Rodion

If I were to take a cue from your book of etiquette, I would dismiss anyone who wants Speed Boost on their character as a weakling needing a crutch. I would then kick them from the team because they can't hack it on their own.

Fulcrum Shift is the best Kinetics buff. Transfusion and Transference are more generally useful than Speed Boost (Transference is an excellent offensive power for preventing bosses from attacking you -- no endurance, no attacks). I have nothing against Speed Boost, and it certainly has its uses (especially for characters with long-recharge powers). But for many melee ATs with tight attack chains and good recovery it really offers nothing. When playing such characters I don't need or want Speed Boost (but I won't turn it down, either).

Kicking a Kinetic with Fulcrum Shift but without Speed Boost is just short-sighted, especially if you're replacing them with just another scrapper. FS is a force multiplier for the entire team. If you're going to be completely mercenary about it, the damage buff from FS increases your kill rate more than the +recharge buff. Unless you can find another Kin with Speed Boost on demand, you're just kicking yourself in the head when you kick the SB-less Kin with Fulcrum Shift.

In the end this is just a game that we play to have fun. I don't see why people get so bent out of shape when other players make character choices they disagree with. Unless the player is causing problems or contributing nothing, what difference does it make if the team gets 5% less XP/minute? It's not like this is the Olympics...

Originally Posted by Leo_G

Nah, if you're going to propose crap HP for this AT, you might as well just toss the idea in the garbage. Seriously, it's bad enough the resist sets are sub-par on Stalkers, but on this new ranged/def AT, sets like Regen and Electric Armor will be practically useless.

If nothing else, this AT should have Stalker/Blaster HP/cap. For damage, I'd suggest replacing Build up with a more debuff-y power for when the enemy gets in melee. Basically, I think this AT should probably not be a 'burst damage' AT and more on utility...Oh, and it'd be awesome if this AT gets a tuned down nova tier 9 that does less dmg, recharges a bit faster and causes no crash.

As for the list, Steampunkette, I understand already that melee attacks generally hit harder on a good deal of enemies. The argument I was making was there is no 'melee resist' or 'ranged resist'. Whatever you resist no matter what position will react equally to stats. You can't put this situation in a vacuum and expect it to be universally applicable.

Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm

Stalkers put out the highest ST DPS by far. Love them!

Originally Posted by Andferne

Now I agree that throwing the shield is a little far fetched as using it for a weapon. But we all know who made that famous, hence why people would love the chance to be able to replicate that. However I do not agree that the shield could not suffice as a primary weapon. Essentially it's a darn good weapon, for offense and defense. The reasons for defense are obvious so I won't go into them. But offensive wise it has a number of uses. Besides straight up bashes, which could be more damaging than a actual punch. While not running the risk of breaking your hand or something else. It could be used as a slashing time weapon using the outer edge of the shield (which does not have to be filed down into a sharp edge..). The same principles apply for that as why Martial Artist use not just their hands, but why we have elbow strikes.

Originally Posted by Frosticus

Not that I know of, but it would be a challenge if someone does. There are a lot of variables at work.

Originally Posted by Hazygreys

Guys I can't control my toon if you SB me, so please don't.

ugh I hate seeing that from someone I SB.

Originally Posted by nightowl317

Ok, thanks guys. Guess I clicked hibernate a little to late then. >_<