Bowfling

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Doesn't having all the enhancements you might ever want, but only if you have a high level or wealth lucky character still reduce the value the time requirement for enhancement acquisition provides? Doesn't it reduce it in equal portion to what is lost if you have free enhancements?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, it does reduce the time if you have a high level character funding an alt because level 50s can earn influence at a much higher rate. I don't think it reduces it in equal portion because at some point you still have to earn the influence with your 50, which does take time. But by giving away all the enhancements for free it completely eliminates the time investment.

[/ QUOTE ] OK, but then, if there is value in spending time earning inf, why is earning it on a 30 "too slow" compared to earning it on a 50? Or 10? Why is the time spent earning inf as you level up not valuable enough to warrent keeping the existing system, and a change should be made?

Further, if earning inf on a 50 is the "right" speed with which to earn inf, wouldn't it eliminate this request if we earned inf at equal rates regardless of combat level? Would that eliminate requests for easier inheritance?[ QUOTE ]


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If it is more fun to get the enhancements then to have them freely available, isn't it fair to ask, why it would not be fun to do that per character rather then per account?

[/ QUOTE ] Again, I just think it's a personal preference. For example, I don't find it fun on my blasters and defenders to earn the merits/influence to purchase some KB protection. I want the KB protection asap.

[/ QUOTE ] Wouldn't that suggest that those particular character types should have KB protection, rather then having their inf rate generation modified (as is the case if you transfer only to these character types)?[ QUOTE ]



I think a time investment is important and giving away free enhancements is a much worse idea because it eliminates the carrot on the stick. And the people that want the ability to have each of their characters earn their influence still can, just don't use the optional mail system. And for people like me, it would add an option that would make my in-game life a bit more convenient.

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But remember I am also arguing that there are negative repercussions from easier inheritance. How bad would those have to be to outweigh the supposed benefit from the change, given that there is value in the time spent acquiring inf?

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OK, if that is true, what are the differences between an easy inheritance scheme system, and one with free (or near free) enhancements? What are the differences. I have proposed that easy inheritance and free enhancements are actually very close in performance, and thus, the arguement would not be specious. Indeed, I purport to have two advantages to a free system over a transfer one, thereby making free the superior system.


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Somebody has to earn the inf. It's that simple.

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MunkiLord responsed
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Because time spent playing is also a cost of enhancements. Your idea would eliminate that factor. While the idea of easier transfers would not. Somebody, at some point, had to go out and earn the influence and get the drop, and that took time. Your idea of just giving them away would eliminate the need to play the game at all.

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Ok, You and Munki responsed similarly so I bunched his response here too.

If we can agree that enhancement acquisition is rightly restricted based on time, instead of just wealth, then it begs the question:

If acquiring enhancements over time is a valuable function in the game, why is collecting them over time for each character not valuable?

Doesn't having all the enhancements you might ever want, but only if you have a high level or wealth lucky character still reduce the value the time requirement for enhancement acquisition provides? Doesn't it reduce it in equal portion to what is lost if you have free enhancements?

If it is more fun to get the enhancements then to have them freely available, isn't it fair to ask, why it would not be fun to do that per character rather then per account?

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Allowing transfers through an easy means would not harm the market in a drastic way.

[/ QUOTE ] I dispute this statement, and thus the basis for our disagreement.[ QUOTE ]
Making enhancements free would instantly destroy all market values for such and ruin the market entirely.

[/ QUOTE ] The market would be obsolete, as you could obtain any item you want at any time. It is fair to say that Marketeers would strongly disapprove, but overall, it makes item acquisition easier then transfers, which was the direction of my suggestion.

So if you favor transfers because you believe the impact to the market would be small, but oppose free enhancements because the impact to the market would be huge, can we agree then that there is some limit, call it the Blackavaar
limit, over which the market is "too impacted", but under which the market is "still fine"?

If we can agree on this, then we need only define what that limit is.

Some people will say the BM is already too slow, how much slower can it sustain? If WW were to slow down to the liquidity of the BM, is that too slow? Or if you believe that the BM is fine, how much slower can it sustain?

Then we have to determine how much impact inheritance would produce. You say it won't be much, I say it will be noticable. If inheritance causes a 5% slowdown on CH, is that sustainable? How do we know how much it will slow down?

Consider: We can roughly determine the activity on recipes and crafted IOs, due to their lower turnover rate. I have no doubt that some friendly Marketeers could provide us some numbers on that. Then we need only determine how many items that would ordinarily go to the CH end up being transfered instead. We could start collecting data on it similar to the data I collected on inf tranfers back when the limit was 4 or 5 digits. Back then about 60% of players were transfering inf. When I asked if they made it easier, how many people that were not trading would do so, about 25-30% said they might. While this is not in anyway representative of what we would find for inheritance, if you will indulge me this as a starting point, it would be fair to say that we would see a 50% increase in the number of players transfering. If tha tis true, we find the average number of items CHed instead of transfered, and we have the two varriables needed to find out the estimated market activty loss. If it causes the illiquidity to go over the Blackavaar
limit, we know not to do it. If it doesn't, we can. Not simple to do, but at least we have a mathematical way to determine whether you or I am right. Not just think we are, but know we are.[ QUOTE ]


As far as your argument goes your "Free Enhancements" would be a whole lot worse than my transferred influence.

[/ QUOTE ] Only if market activity is the only or major part of the determination. On the other hand, as I mentioned, if ease of enhancement acquisition is the major or only consideration, then my way is better. Which makes the point I wanted to make. The choice is complicated because there ar emore factors involved then just "I can do it already, so why not make it easier".[ QUOTE ]


And "twinking" as you define it is stupid if anyone can do it given the right circumstances. "Twinking" as it is defined for the majority of MMO's means you are able to use something that you are not powerful enough to get for yourself (ie, a drop from a dungeon that is limited to level 46+ being usable by a level 32 character and giving stats beyond those available for other level 32s) to great advantage. There's no great advantage here when someone uses some extra influence to green up their enhancements because they can never get above the limitation of their own level.

[/ QUOTE ] If there is no great advantage to be gained by "greening up your enhancements", then why do it?

You can't simultaneously claim it is too important not to make a change, while not important enough to worry about the consequences.[ QUOTE ]


Just make up another word, or keep using that "tricking out" phrase you seem to like so much (even though it is not fitting to the situation either).



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I use tricked out because of the use of twink in slang. But it means the same thing most people use twinking to mean. Having superior equipment then a character of your level can reasonably expect to have. That you MIGHT be able to get that powerful under extraoridinary circumstances does not mean you SHOULD be able to get that powerful all the time.

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It just gives the option. An option that already exists.

[/ QUOTE ] No, it is asking for a new option to replace a work around. Very different situation.[ QUOTE ]



It WOULD make something you can already do, easier.

[/ QUOTE ] Which would encourage more people to do it. If more people are doing something, it may make a small issue big enough to affect the overall game performance.[ QUOTE ]


Hyperbole doesn't make your point any less specious.

[/ QUOTE ] OK, if that is true, what are the differences between an easy inheritance scheme system, and one with free (or near free) enhancements? What are the differences. I have proposed that easy inheritance and free enhancements are actually very close in performance, and thus, the arguement would not be specious. Indeed, I purport to have two advantages to a free system over a transfer one, thereby making free the superior system.

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I'll pipe up here just to say that in a game that encourages the creation of alts they really should add something along these lines to support that encouragement.

And once again I need to remind everyone that twinking is not possible in this game. There is nothing that you could get with influence sent from a level 50 alt that you couldn't get from influence from winning a Costume Contest or getting a super expensive recipe or salvage drop and selling it on the market.

If a level 30 could use the equivalent of a level 50 enhancement, that would be twinking. But since everything is limited by the level you are and nothing special for lower levels drops only for higher levels (as in games like WoW or EQ) it simply is not possible.

Stop using that word because it does not apply to this game in any way.



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And as always, there will be plenty of people to refute your definition of tricking out.

Further, if it is going to be argued that having vast amounts of wealth on all characters is not a detriment to the game, then by extention, free enhancements are similarly no detriment, since, by your arguement:


"There is nothing that you could get with (free enhancements) that you couldn't get from influence from winning a Costume Contest or getting a super expensive recipe or salvage drop and selling it on the market."

So you support free enhancements?

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Hello, Bowfling? How dumb are you?

[sarcasm] Yeah, just because I can transfer influence from one character to another that suddenly means that all of my characters are super rich and will never need to use the market again. [/sarcasm] Come the [self censored] on!

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, what I am saying is that you will no longer have inf as a deterant to enhacement acquisition. You will probably use the market almost as much as before, except that any items your higher level character obtains but does not want get transfered, thus relieving you of the need to use the market to obtain the same. Market usage will drop anywhere from a lot, to not much.

If it is true that over the course of one characters time from 1-50, you will earn more inf then you need in order to fully kit out your character as you like. In this currency rich environment, you transfer the leftover inf (call it X) to your next character. Having done this, that character, over the same course of 1-50 will now have 2X inf left over, since you have the normal X, plus the X you transfered. By this process, you can support each next character, or 1 extra character for every character at 50. Depending on how big X is compared to total inf earned, you may well be able to supply multiple characters for each 50.

This does not mean you would stop using the market, just that over time, you will have less need to be below max performance due to currency shortages. Eventually, you will obtain sufficient inf reserves as to be able to obtain any item you want at any time.[ QUOTE ]


And like I said, if Mr. Newb that just won a costume contest or sold a super rare salvage on the market for 20 million influence can trick out his character, then there is no twinking IN THIS GAME!!

[/ QUOTE ] As you define it, but not as I do.[ QUOTE ]
Anyone can do it! They don't need a 50 to do it and just because they have a 50 isn't going to mean they automatically have every single character they play tricked out. Stop being so [self censored] obtuse!

[/ QUOTE ] I already explained the 50/mentor situatio above, so let me cover the rest.

Unlike a costume contest, from which sustained inf generation is not likely due to the player having very little control over whether they obtain inf through them or not, inheritances schemes are entirely player driven. Super valuable drops are slightly more in the players control, but also suffer from the random nature of the drop process. You can't plan your future performance around assuming you will get a valuable drop. This burden doesn't exist with inheritance. As a consequence, you can reasonably say , over a short time,
"just because they have a 50 is going to mean they automatically have every single character they play tricked out". While it is true that you may play more characters then you can trick out right away, over time, you will have enough "extra" wealth to fund all future purchases.

But none of this speaks to the arguement I made on free enhancements.
"There is nothing that you could get with (free enhancements) that you couldn't get from influence from winning a Costume Contest or getting a super expensive recipe or salvage drop and selling it on the market."
Since you claim this state of the game offers players the ability to trick out a character wholy divorced from a need to transfer inf, I ask the counter arguement:

Why transfer at all then?
And why not free enhancements?

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If players were allowed to transfer items directly between characters, I doubt that it would hurt the CH a lot. I don't think there are enough recipe and salvage space that one can store enough stuffs to allow the person avoiding the CH completely.

[/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately, a character could easily be created simply to hold items, with no intention of playing that character extensively. These bag o'holding characters would circumvent the normal storage restrictions. presently, doing a swap is time consuming, but in an easy transfer format, this burden is removed.[ QUOTE ]

A more efficient way to encourage players using CH is to lower the storage space.

[/ QUOTE ] This certainly would encourage more use of the CH, but there is a practical minimum limit one can offer. For instance, allowing the holding of only 1 recipe at a time would force players to clear whichever one they were holding, or miss out on the chance for the mission end recipe. Allowing 2 would be far superior, since you could hold one, and maybe get the mission one. This is just an example, but sufficed to say, I believe the devs have developed a reasonable expansion format for storage, whereby you can hold more as you level, but not so much that you can hold everything that drops endlessly.[ QUOTE ]

Transfer between characters plays a relatively minor role.


[/ QUOTE ] I argue that this is only the case so long as the process of transfer is burdensome. Make it too easy, and players will do it exponentially more often.[ QUOTE ]


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Most importantly, transferring items to other characters on your account might allow those characters to outperform characters of an equal level but who have not received transfers. If that happens, it would become more difficult to generate content for players that is both challenging for assisted characters, while still beatable for those characters that have not been assisted. Game changes have already been done to limit the ability of characters that were outperforming dev expectations.


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I think I can ask someone to help me transfer 10 mil to my low-level character. I don't think this point matters at all.

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It could, which was the point of my article, what could be a benefit, what could be a drawback.

In this case, if players are able to easily transfer inf to the point where ever character on an account with one sufficiently wealthy character can out perform the devs expectations, it becomes more difficult to design content around the divergent abilities of the two character sets, the ones with a "sugar daddy", and the ones without. We saw this prior to ED, where character would focus on the "best" builds, and then be able to defeat even +5s with ease. This was a major part of why we know have ED, with all the complaining that went with its launch.

If we lived in a currency poor environment, this issue is less of a concern, because the overperformance for your low level character is countered by the underperformance of your higher level, currency poor character. Unfortunately, (or perhaps fortunately), this is not the case. Games like WoW use numerous control methods for performance control. One of them is a relatively currency poor environment, where your character can be broke at any level. That isn't the case here, and as such, there is no penalty for transfering like in a currency poor game, which suggests the developer should do one of two things. Either design the game around higher performance, and make high performance easy to obtain, or design the game around lower performance, and make high performance hard to obtain. Since the devs choose the second to start, I think it is a bad idea to try to graft the first onto the system as we have it.

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I'll pipe up here just to say that in a game that encourages the creation of alts they really should add something along these lines to support that encouragement.

And once again I need to remind everyone that twinking is not possible in this game. There is nothing that you could get with influence sent from a level 50 alt that you couldn't get from influence from winning a Costume Contest or getting a super expensive recipe or salvage drop and selling it on the market.

If a level 30 could use the equivalent of a level 50 enhancement, that would be twinking. But since everything is limited by the level you are and nothing special for lower levels drops only for higher levels (as in games like WoW or EQ) it simply is not possible.

Stop using that word because it does not apply to this game in any way.



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And as always, there will be plenty of people to refute your definition of tricking out.

Further, if it is going to be argued that having vast amounts of wealth on all characters is not a detriment to the game, then by extention, free enhancements are similarly no detriment, since, by your arguement:


"There is nothing that you could get with (free enhancements) that you couldn't get from influence from winning a Costume Contest or getting a super expensive recipe or salvage drop and selling it on the market."

So you support free enhancements?

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Let's reverse this. I choose not to use a broken tool because the tool I choose to use suits my purpose much better.

[/ QUOTE ] If you are satisfied using a non sanctioned tool, that is your choice. But if you don't like the saw, and want to cut a piece of wood with a hammer, that doesn't suggest the hammer should be given a better cutting edge. Just use the saw.[ QUOTE ]


And if everyone (except the flippers) chose not to use the market until the stinking thing was fixed that would be excellent! Sadly, most people don't realize it's broken, or they do realize it and chose to say "Well I can't afford to buy into that at any level w/o excessive amounts of time or using RMT vermin. I guess IOs are just not for me."

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See, this is one of those comments that undercuts your request. If you use hyberbole to try to form a rational basis for your request, your arguement is on shaky ground.

The BM works exactly as it should. Indeed, despite the frequent arguements that lower population is an issue, that fact is that population has little to do with costs, excepting for truly low volume items, since supply and demand are both population driven.

I have used the BM extensively, and have never failed to obtain an item I wanted. I think you would find that the majority of users would agree that this is their typical experience as well.

If your only reason for wanting to swap items on account is your distate for the BM, I would argue that the change should not be made.

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Most importantly, transferring items to other characters on your account might allow those characters to outperform characters of an equal level but who have not received transfers. If that happens, it would become more difficult to generate content for players that is both challenging for assisted characters, while still beatable for those characters that have not been assisted. Game changes have already been done to limit the ability of characters that were outperforming dev expectations.

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If the above is really the "most important" reason not to implement the change, then I would say the argument against the change is very weak. As mentioned, players already have the ability to move items from one character to another character. It's just inconvenient, moreso for some than others. Players with more in-game "friends" have an easier time than the lone wolf type player when it comes to these types of transfers.

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Well, people drive faster then the speed limit, but we still have them. If there is a good reason to have a control, even if not everyone follows that control, it is still useful.

for instance, in my home state of PA, the speed limit on many roads was increased to 65 MPH from 55 MPH many years ago. When this happened, the average speed travelled by vehicles on these roads increased, from 60 MPH to 70 MPH. When the limit was increased, so too did drivers willingness to bend the rules. If it had been only a desire to go 60, that could have been achieved legally with a 65 limit, but that wasn't the intent. People wanted to go as fast as they could without being so obvious that they would get caught.

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Yeah but there is also the fact that most people in PA know that the State Troopers rarely pull people over unless they are going more than 10 miles over the speed limit.

So if the Speed Limit is 65 and the cops won't pull you over unless your going faster than 75, then for all intents and purposes the speed limit is 75.

Whats on paper may say one thing but what gets enforced is another.

/end threadjack

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Exactly. People will do whatever they can get away with "safely". Or in other formats "easily".

If it is "too hard" to do a transfer, they don't. If it is easy, they do.

Take the old inf trade limit issue. It used to be 4 digits, then 5, etc.

Imagine if they reduced the limit instead. To 3, or 2, or 1 digit. In the past, we heard the same arguement of "well, I can trade inf to my alts anyway, why not make it easier?" Well, the answer is that if the limit was 1 or 2 digits, it would take so long to transfer that it wouldn't be useful to do. But the point is that for some people, 4 or 5 or 6 digits would be too slow for them, and so they don't. Or, 4 or too slow, but 5 is just fast enough.

Give people the ability to do something, and they are more likely to do it. Whether it is a good idea or not for the overall viability of the system. So set the speed limit to 100 MPH, and some people will drive that fast, even if it isn't safe. The same is true of item transfer. If we make it easier, more people will do it, even if it isn't good for the game.

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/signed

I'm tired of getting items I can use on one of my 50s as a random drop on a different 50.

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But I bet you don't complain when you want something on the CH and are able to get it right? Imagine what happens if you no longer have to sell any items on the CH, you can simply pass them off on to bag'o holding characters with ease. Some people already complain the BM is too influid.

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I don't use the CH. And won't until they merge them. My SG mates get whatever I can't use anyway.

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Whats more, what about all those times you got a drop you could use on some other character, but instead decided to sell on the market (for whatever reason). That earned you some inf you eventually used on that character right? So ultimately, even if you got a drop you couldn't use, you converted it into inf you could. There are no useless drops.

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Obviously you've never gotten a Trap of the Hunter then. I must have gotten all of yours. I might vendor them if I notice it while I'm at a shop, but usually that's an auto delete.

Oh, and just in case I didn't mention it before, I don't use the CH.

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That you choose not to use a tool does not mean the tool is broken. Indeed, if everyone were to take your position, then we would be in the theoretical worst case scenario, where it was every account for themselves. Isn't it better to know the CH is there if you wanted to use it?

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Most importantly, transferring items to other characters on your account might allow those characters to outperform characters of an equal level but who have not received transfers. If that happens, it would become more difficult to generate content for players that is both challenging for assisted characters, while still beatable for those characters that have not been assisted. Game changes have already been done to limit the ability of characters that were outperforming dev expectations.

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If the above is really the "most important" reason not to implement the change, then I would say the argument against the change is very weak. As mentioned, players already have the ability to move items from one character to another character. It's just inconvenient, moreso for some than others. Players with more in-game "friends" have an easier time than the lone wolf type player when it comes to these types of transfers.

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Well, people drive faster then the speed limit, but we still have them. If there is a good reason to have a control, even if not everyone follows that control, it is still useful.

for instance, in my home state of PA, the speed limit on many roads was increased to 65 MPH from 55 MPH many years ago. When this happened, the average speed travelled by vehicles on these roads increased, from 60 MPH to 70 MPH. When the limit was increased, so too did drivers willingness to bend the rules. If it had been only a desire to go 60, that could have been achieved legally with a 65 limit, but that wasn't the intent. People wanted to go as fast as they could without being so obvious that they would get caught.

The same effect applies here. Right now, players can transfer if they want, but they have to go there a process to do it. For some, that process is too much hassle, not worth the effort. Instead, they will use alternative means to convert unwanted drops into a useful resource. Some may get vendored, others handed off to near by characters, and some may just get dropped. But some will be sold on the CH, where everyone can then access those items, improving the overall access to items in game. Since the devs went to the trouble of adding a CH, I doubt they would take steps to reduce the utility of that tool.

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Actually, Munki, it was a matter of Sarcasm.

'Hey! Let's go to a -further- extreme for comedic effect!'

That you failed to grasp it makes it far more comedic.

Mailing System for items and influence: Please No.

-Rachel-

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Not comedic, but for debating purposes really.

If it is simply easier to select from a drop down menu whatever enhancement you like, rather then have to trade one from one character to another. It can be said that, on this limited basis, my option is clearly better, as everyone can benefit rather then only some(those that have something they wish to transfer), and less effort is required to initiate the action(pick item and plug in vs. pick item, select transfer, send item, load other character, get item, plug in).

I fully suspect that plenty of people would disagree that this is a better option overall, and it is that discussion that merits consideration. Although I will confess that as others have pointed out, this subject has come up so often, that I have had this discussion before, just maybe not with the poster(s) in this thread.

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I don't think Bowfling was suggesting free IO sets and stuff like that(though I could be wrong), I think he is talking about TO, DO, and SOs. While I have no data to back this up, I don't think the normal enhancements are what people are wanting to mail to their alts.

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Nope, I am talking about all enhancements. There is no reason to differentiate set ones from regular ones.

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Someone needs to make one of those cut-n-paste replies to this "mail items to myself" redundancy.

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I wrote this article for the Scoop, that count?

This is the sixth in a series of point-counterpoint articles, which will review commonly requested player suggestions, and review the pros and cons of those suggestions.

This week’s subject – Inf transfers

POINT:

There are certain advantages to increasing the ease with which players can transfer inf and items between characters on their accounts. The biggest is probably that players that want to do transfers would be able to avoid the complication of finding someone to help them, and the ensuing risk associated with such transactions. It would also mean that the Consignment House would not be used for such transfers, and the possibility of having those transactions intercepted by others is avoided. Since players already go through the process even with such complications, removing those complications seems like a positive change. With the addition of inventions, many players will find that the salvage they need for a recipe on character X exists in storage on character Y. Being able to trade between these two characters avoids the need to use the Consignment House, which does not provide a sure way to get a recipe or salvage from one character to another. If you view all your characters as a collective time investment, then what one character does should not be limited to just that character. Popular suggestions are the ability to send items via an “e-mail” system, or using the CH to send items, or a bank which contains the total inf earned by account, from which any character on the account may draw for use in purchases.


COUNTERPOINT:

But there are also certain disadvantages associated with increasing the ease with which players can transfer inf and items between characters on their accounts. There would be an unavoidable amount of time spent on coding such a change. In addition, the ability to circumvent the CH may not be intended by the devs. Indeed, a warning when the CH first launched suggested players should not try to use the CH for transfers. Allowing players to utilize the items they obtain on any character may significantly reduce the use of the CH, which may also not be desirable. Most importantly, transferring items to other characters on your account might allow those characters to outperform characters of an equal level but who have not received transfers. If that happens, it would become more difficult to generate content for players that is both challenging for assisted characters, while still beatable for those characters that have not been assisted. Game changes have already been done to limit the ability of characters that were outperforming dev expectations.

The use of the Consignment House for the trading of items between all characters on a side helps build community, while helping to insure all players have access to all items they may wish to obtain. Instead of trading directly between characters, consider using the CH as intended, where in character X puts an item on the CH for anyone who wants it to be able to bid on, while character Y can put a bid in on said item. In this way, all players can access these items, not just those who have other characters on their account.

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/signed

I'm tired of getting items I can use on one of my 50s as a random drop on a different 50.

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But I bet you don't complain when you want something on the CH and are able to get it right? Imagine what happens if you no longer have to sell any items on the CH, you can simply pass them off on to bag'o holding characters with ease. Some people already complain the BM is too influid.

Whats more, what about all those times you got a drop you could use on some other character, but instead decided to sell on the market (for whatever reason). That earned you some inf you eventually used on that character right? So ultimately, even if you got a drop you couldn't use, you converted it into inf you could. There are no useless drops.

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Change email to mail system so I can mail my other toons:

Influence/infamy
Salvage
Enhancements

Thanks,

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/signed. Actually, hell yes to your idea. Me having to jump through less hoops to transfer influence and etc. from one of my characters to another does not hurt anybody in anyway, so I see no good reason not to allow it(and one sure as hell hasn't been given in this thread). This feature should have been added last year.

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Well, then I take it if I had a solution that was even easier, AND had a broader base of access, you would be in favor of it right?

So then free enhancements???

If they are going to do a CoH2, certainly a new leveling structure which allows for more levels would be possible. My question is, if you are going to go through the trouble of making a whole new game, why ever would you limit it to people who have level 50s in some other game. You almost certainly will alienate people who buy it expecting to be able to play right out of the box.

Expansions of the kind we are getting now are more appropriate means for delivering advanced content. While the arguements about level cap increases are well covered, I think releasing a "CoH2" that was nothing but an expansion but with supposedly new mechanics is the worst of both worlds.

Make a CoH2 that allows you to port characters sure, but allow players to start normal too.

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WUPS! Got caught up in the idea...didn't notice how old it was.

It's still brilliant!

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Hence the reason we will forgive some of the dark thread arts. But perform threadmancy on a thread that is 2 YEARS old, instead of just 2 months old, and forumites are not so kind.

While Threadmancy is normally frowned upon here, I like the idea, so it is worth saving by returning it.

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Is it wrong how horribly amusing it is to see people replying in a serious fashion to an ancient, undead thread? >_>

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Yes, but it did inspire me to suggest a new badge.

Threadmancer:

Given to any poster that revives a thread with nothing new to add.

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Hello, everyone. I recently joined the world of City of Heroes just before Christmas, and I have been playing for a couple months now. A friend and co-worker of mine had just started a free trial, and without trying he had accidentally talked me into playing as well. After playing for a couple weeks together, our gaming paths split: he quit the game and I stayed. Ever since, I have not been able to convince him or anyone else I know to play the game. I'm curious to see if others have had experiences similar to mine, and so listed below are the reasons my friends refuse to play:


1. The gameplay is challenging, awkward, and frustrating for new players

The first level tutorial was easy enough for me to work my way through, and it made for a decent first impression. After that, my impression of the game took an immediate nosedive. When I got my first mission in Atlas Park, I was pointed to a mission door in a far corner of the map, tucked behind a web of level 5-6 lieutenant spawns showing a nerve-wracking display of purple colored names. I thought to myself, "There's no way I can fight these guys yet, so that must not be an area I'm supposed to enter right now." Instead, I spent a couple hours searching the streets for even con mobs to fight so I could level up to a more appropriate level for getting to my mission. When I finally soloed my way to the mission door, all the enemies inside were extremely weak, giving little XP at all. In the end, it actually took me several days to realize:

A. I can Sprint past the harder mobs to get to the door. Even still, this is counter-intuitive and makes me feel less like a hero and more like a coward.

B. Door missions spawn mobs relative to the level you had when you accepted the mission, making it a reliable option for finding appropriate level challenges.

Eventually, I finally made it to level 5. My contact told me to see someone in King's Row, who then told me to see -- you guessed it! -- Lt. David Wincott in the Hollows. His first mission for me: defeat 10 Outcasts. The problem: Outcasts near the area range from levels 6-9 in groups of 7-10 members, often including several lieutenants and bosses. My scrapper-based strategy consisted of taking on a group, trying to kill one or two before dying, and running from the hospital in Atlas Park back to the zone to rinse and repeat. Second mission: defeat 10 Trolls. /facepalm

[/ QUOTE ] Clearly, he fell into the "he is a contact, so I must do his missions" deal. Further Hollows is a hazard zone not proposed to be soloed. Did he try teaming at all?[ QUOTE ]


Even after completing the Trolls mission with my friend,

[/ QUOTE ] Apparently so, but even 2 might not be enough.[ QUOTE ]
we still died several times just trying to make our way through the mob-heavy, obstruction-infested zone to the next few door missions. And during this time, it never occurred to us that we could go back to the contact in King's Row for different missions. We just thought we were where we were supposed to be.

[/ QUOTE ] Clearly they did not READ the tutorial well, where it explains contacts and what they do.[ QUOTE ]


With as much difficulty as we were having with regular missions, radio missions weren't even a consideration. I was simply too intimidated to even want to try these "safeguard missions," which sounded far more complicated. If I had known I could get a free temporary travel power out of it, I might have put more effort into trying it. But instead, I spent a lot of time running back and forth between zones for different missions, hoping I could eventually get to level 14 and get my travel power.

Unfortunately, my friend never made it that far. At level 11, he found his 3 mission slots filled with the Frostfire mission (which he tried but could not beat), a "Beat X number of Type mobs," most of which were too high a level for him or hard to find in the zone, and a door mission which spawned Lt's one level higher than him that he could not defeat. He died frequently within a short timeframe attempting any of these missions, and with the gloomy prospect of a growing debt bar, he finally gave up. He called that day his "worst MMORPG experience ever," and he never logged in again. He now refers to the game as "City of Hospital," and I can't even share with him the new adventures I've had in the game because he's no longer interested in it.

[/ QUOTE ] Still, this sounds like your friend did not play very well. To be defeated repeatedly would suggest he never ran from a fight to refresh, perhaps didn't use enhancements well, or other associated factors. Teaming up with other people might have helped out, but unfortuantely, it seems like he focused mostly on small teams or solo, fought things far above him, and was not skilled in playing the game. Those things can be daunting, but this can happen in any game. You can wander into areas too high for you in WoW, where the thing you are suppose to collect is. Does that mean the game was designed wrong? Or does it just mean you have to learn the way the game flows?[ QUOTE ]



2. Veteran Rewards and optional expansions alienate new players

A few times now, I've tried to tell my friends and co-workers something new I've discovered about this game only to realize how dumb it actually sounds after I've said it out loud.

"Hey, guess what? City of Heroes has a new expansion pack out. It's only $10! It looks like it features.... a wedding dress. And a tux. And a couple redesigns of pre-existing costumes. Umm... and an emote to throw rice at people?"

"Oh, it looks like City of Heroes just released a new pet that buffs you. To get it.... you have to keep playing the game for four years."

Quite frankly, I did not win anyone over to the game explaining these features. In fact, I think I lost a little credibility. They laughed at the idea of the Wedding Expansion Pack, and subsequently asked, "You mean I would have to pay the monthly subscription AND pay extra for every little extra thing?" We all agreed such a set of features should really either be included with the monthly subscription or added into a bigger expansion that offered more options.


[/ QUOTE ] payed expansions are nothing new, and the wedding pack was not the first paid add on. I do agree that the wedding pack was more expensive than it was worth, but I think it was more test run for further such additions. But many MMOs have paided expansions.

As for veteran rewards, they are what they are. You shouldn't sell them to friends talking about the last one, talk about the first one, at just 3 months, and every 3 months after. Lastly, assume all the additions in veteran rewards were never given at all. That certainly isn't going to be a better inducement to play.[ QUOTE ]

And the concept of veteran rewards is just absolutely heartbreaking for a new player, myself included, for two reasons:

A. No amount of effort on my part will unlock these any faster, and the time to wait for particular items of interest is substantial! This leaves us in a perpetual state of unhealthy "reward envy," and knowing a particular reward is so far out of our reach and beyond our control makes the game less appealing to play.

[/ QUOTE ] How so? You get it at the same time everyone else gets it. veteran rewards are account longevity rewards. and NOTHING can stop you from getting them. You will get them after X time, no matter how little you play, no matter how poorly you play, no matter what side or characters you play, no matter when or how you play. Time passes at a constant sec/sec. And would you really like these things to be gone entirely? Or worse, have to pay for them like the wedding pack?[ QUOTE ]


B. The rewards keep accumulating at the top end, meaning a new player will never be able to catch up to older players.

[/ QUOTE ] No, you will get them at the same time everyone else does. Indeed, it is the long time players who were denied access to those vet rewards prior to their release that have any standing to complain. You get the 3 month reward after 3 months time. I had to wait more than a year to get my 3 month reward.[ QUOTE ]
This provokes feelings of being left out and unwanted, and it makes me feel as if I am substantially less valuable to the developers simply because I wasn't playing since the first day of release. Since I can never catch up to the ranks of the more valuable subscribers of this game, it's natural that I would probably be more likely to give up and join on another game's release instead, especially if my friends do as well.

[/ QUOTE ] Again, how would removing them be an improvement? And how is rewarding account longevity something that can put you off, would you prefer they reward account longevity with character DEBUFFS, or higher inf costs for things, or other game disadvantages?[ QUOTE ]


I really do respect the idea that people who have been faithful subscribers to this game for four years are given something special for their continued business. But I have to imagine this business model rewards its existing players at the expense of prospective new ones. Plus, veterans in the top subscription tier do not have to suffer the anxiety of anticipation of a particular reward. Each new reward is revealed just before it is released to them, whereas newer players suffer through the news thinking, "Well, that's another thing I won't have for four more years. Whoop-di-doo." Essentially, each new reward is punishing players again for not being a subscriber on Day 1. From this end of being four years behind the leaders, if something really enticing comes out as a new reward, I am probably more likely to quit the game out of spite than to be motivated to maintain my subscription indefinitely. In essence, I'm actually hoping each new vet reward is worthless so I am free to enjoy the rest of the game.

[/ QUOTE ] If the devs got rid of veteran rewards tomorrow, are you really saying you would be HAPPIER? I can not believe there is any rational player that would say this:

P: devs, veteran rewards make me want to quit, I want them but feel like I won't get them.
D: hmmm, ok, vet rewards are gone, all that stuff is lost forever.
P: cool, now I want to stay, because I don't feel unwanted.

Come on[ QUOTE ]



In Conclusion:

I really do like this game. I've had a lot of fun making new characters, and I've found an awesome group with the Angry/Jaded Angels on Virtue (you guys rock!). I've enjoyed being a hero and a villain, and my new broadsword/willpower scrapper is really fun to play! I've also learned a lot about the game since then (although I am far from an expert), I have led a few radio mission teams, and I just recently soloed my first Invincible! However, my biggest regret is that I cannot convince other real life friends to join because of the reasons mentioned above, and I worry that their reactions are similar to other new player experiences around the world. For the sake of this game and the hard work of the developers behind it, I want it to continue growing.


[/ QUOTE ] The best thing you can do is provide them your game experience. Since you know how things work, team with them to start, even Exemplaring down if needs be, or make a new character. Show them the ropes. If they really are your friends, and are willing to commit some time and money to buying the game, they can at least expect you will commit some time to helping them enjoy it no?[ QUOTE ]

Thank you for reading this far, and I apologize for the length of this post. Ultimately, I would like to make this perspective useful in posting ideas to the suggestions forum, but I'm interested first in knowing how many others have had similar experiences.

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I did not have any problems your friends had because:

1. I had friends that teamed with me throughout my learning curve.
2. Veteran rewards did not exist early on.

further I have patience, which helps in a host of game situations:

1. Xp/hr means nothing to me.
2. Standing around doing nothing while I recover (resting) is not a burden.
3. debt does not bother me.
4. I have no problems getting what I want on the CH over time.
5. loot does not entice me.

Perhaps your friends do not have patience, or have a different gaming style. That isn't necessarily bad, just something to consider when choosing how to introduce them into the game. This game is really very casual friendly, and I have no doubt that the unique additions in this game might have some interest for them.

Is World of Walking better in terms of travel time? In terms of foes faced for a challenge? Lag? Focus of the game (1-50 or end game)? All these questions go into deciding which game is right for you. maybe this one just isn't right for them.

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Use this thread to discuss Positron's announcement of the coming Double XP weekend

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I think it would need to have all rewards doubled across the board. Double the drop rate overall (presently something like 2.667% for minions 5.333% for lueys at 8% for bosses) If they went to 5.3% M:10.67L:16B, I think people would see no overall loss of salvage and recipes per level. This would be an outright double speed weekend.

That was not the case last time. Last time, we got normal drop rates, which meant people were getting fewer enhancements and inspirations (and base salvage I suppose). I fear that if this will be carried over to this weekend, we will no doubt have people complain that the drops issue actually made their double XP weekend an inf hole, since now they leveled faster, but got less inf per level.

I already said in another thread I prefer a 48 hour real time temporary power that you can turn on or off. That way, if drops and content are important to someone, they can forego double exp in order to get what they want. Given the inability to obtain it any other way, and the need to be logged on to obtain it, the devs would still see the server activity increase that these weekends bring. To further bind it for people, have the power expire on a set time, instead of set number of hours after acquisition, if such tech exists for temporary powers.

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Reasons why devs might be silent on an issue:

1) We didn't see the issue. There are a lot of threads out there.
2) We are in the middle of looking at an issue, and saying anything at the time might be invalidated. Even something like "we are looking into it" can be read as "we are going to change it" if we look at it and find it to be fine, we would get blasted for not changing it when we said we would.
3) The answer is already being given by a lot of players already
4) The answer is obvious (and thus will eventually be given out by a lot of players, see #3).
5) It involves talking about stuff we can't/shouldn't be talking about.
6) The question is a "when" question. We rarely answer these, because even when we put disclaimers on it, our answer becomes taken as gospel, and if we fail to deliver, we look bad.

There's a secret 7th reason that I am not going to give you because of reason #7.

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Dang, now who be stealin' me thunder Yo!

There can be only 1 Lord of the Lists.
{points to sig}

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First off, this post is *NOT* a precursor of any particular impending change. The topic is strictly informative and for discussion.

I'd like to know about breakpoints for To Hit and Defense and how you, the players, think it should work. I'm not talking about mechanics -- I'm talking about the expectations you have in a fight.

[/ QUOTE ] I will try to answer these in the most general way possible, so that it is the most broadly applicable. Also, because I do not PvP, I will limit my answers solely to PvE.[ QUOTE ]


1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?

[/ QUOTE ] I believe the current hitting rates are fine as is, which would be 75% as the PvE, and 50% EvP. [ QUOTE ]

2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?

[/ QUOTE ] I would expect to hit at the hit cap rate, and be missed at the (1 - hit cap rate).[ QUOTE ]

3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?

[/ QUOTE ] I would expect to hit at the hit floor rate, and be missed at the (1 - hit floor rate).[ QUOTE ]

4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?

[/ QUOTE ]I would expect to hit at the base rate (75%), and be hit at the base rate (50%). In essence, I would expect max hittability buffing to be exactly counterable by max defense buffing. And by hittability buffing, I mean the present to-hit buffs and accuracy buffs combined, or the combination of these and some future buff to the ability to hit something.

Frankly though, I think better questions would be in what DEGREE should such and so buff impact hittability. Afterall, in a normal play instance, it is likely that a player will be somewhere between maxed out and not buffed at all. Thus, in general I believe that hittability buffs of X amount should be exactly canceled by defense of X amount. That would produce the intuitive feel that makes coming up with the actual numbers less meaningful to me. It is only when X+5-5 doesn't equal X that I start worrying about the actual numbers.

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Actually I believe its threads STARTED by a redname are most likely not purged..

Otherwise there'd be tooo many posts just hanging out there.

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I know that this is likely, as Red Name posts in non-Red Name started threads to which I had links no longer work.