Blueeyed

Crud, that was supposed to be a PM to TopDoc, who measured Radiation Infection to be 31.25% or so in a different thread.

Sorry. Too many open tabs >.<

*yay, post deleted by blue*

Don't test your cool new power inside a mission with a full team!

Particularly the 32 and 38 ones. Higher tier powers are situational, so unless you want to end up dead, don't use Moment of Glory unless you've got a handle on it. Same goes for Light Form, Blaster Big Nukes, and EM Pulse.

Actually, he said Darkest Night was equal to 37%. While RI might be under DN, don't pull numbers out your [censored] unless you estimate on the end which least fits your concept.

I also believe that your tohit debuff values for Flash Arrow are off. Goofy's shown numbers suggesting some significantly lower than yours, which may be due to miscommunication.

iakona, I think we'll need the melee heal values, as well.

For example, a level 50 scrapper heals himself for 262 health with Aid Self, and gives other 189 Health with Aid Other. That would give Aid Self a 2.71 scalar, and Aid Other a 1.9ish scalar. However, a 24 Defender healed himself for 104 Health with Aid Self, and 136 with Aid Other. Those would suggest a 1.48 scalar for Aid Self, and a 1.9ish scalar for Aid Other.

While Aid Other remains constant, the Defender gets close to half the results from Aid Other.

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I'm curious to know about the bug and whether there is any cap for -range debuff.

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Well, it's been labeled as 'working as intended', but the rough and tumble is that Blaster, Dominator, Defender, Controller, Corruptor, and Mastermind melee attacks can be debuffed to 0 range, effectively never able to be used while debuffed. Meanwhile, Tanker, Brute, Stalker, and Scrapper ranged attacks don't suffer a -range debuff at all.

There's no real -range floor, other than 0.

Personally?

I doubt it. They leave Defender powers alone, unless we either prove (with much nashing of teeth) that they're not working right or when a power lets Defenders get close or near to the power of a Controller (see Dark Miasma, i5) or Blaster (see En Field). The only fixes to Hurricane I can see would be to fix that damned bug with -range debuffs.

I'd just expect players to end up getting easier access to tohit buffs and repel protection.

TopDoc, temp powers work off a seperate and entirely different damage scale, shared by all ATs. You can test this by having two of any AT go into Sirens and use the EMP Glove temp power.

24 Warshade vs. Green Ink Man
Shadow Bolt : 12.41
Shadow Blast : 33.95
Dark Nova Bolt : 34.58
Dark Nova Blast : 57.64

The only reason I know of to use a seperate melee and brawl damage base would be in the case of Defenders. They have attacks with a shared damage scale (Electric and Energy Blast, Archery). Using their melee brawl to measure the damage done by an attack will either give too high results, or require seperate damage scale measurements for the Blasts.

I also believe that none of the Scrapper ranged attacks work off their ranged scale, as they do damage similar to a melee attack with the same recharge rate.

We understand what lit it - Mieux brings up both his own Blazing Arrow and an allies' Ball Lightning. It's just surprising for the report of it working all the time that's impressive.

Although my personal experience with the set is limited, both from seeing teammates and from other reports, I'm used to Oil Slick having a significant failure rate, where the slick takes fire/energy damage, dies, but doesn't light. Mieux claims 11/11 lights in a row, better odds than an SG member of mine has ever gotten.

Hm... I've smacked them with Gravity Well and still seen the bubbles, though, admittedly, the Generator did die pretty soon after that.

I prefer killing the generators and aggroing a grunt enough to keep him off the tank. The walker ones, Infernos in particular, don't seem to like running away.

:shrug: whatever works.

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I actually prefer it when the FF Generators get dropped...they make great anchors.

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Aren't you supposed to kill those first?

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Fury works so why doesn't Defiance? I can't imagine that the coding would be so different.

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Fury never takes large jumps. Defiance is known for going from 0.0 to 0.6 or 0.8 in less than a second. That's likely where the problem is.

And, yes, Fury does sometimes have a delay effect.

T_Cat, Oil Slick is immune to lethal and smashing damage. I've smacked it a good thirty or fourty times with a Claws/ scrapper to test.

It just happens to fail a lot.

This'll be a nice fix, if that's no longer the case. Of course, Mieux might have just gotten lucky...

I know a Kineticist that doesn't slot for accuracy because of it, Mieux. I know many players in one of the SGs I run with only slot 1 +acc, simply because they can rely on having an Irradiate or Rad Infection around whenever they're playing with tough stuff.

And it's always fun to see a Paragon Protector pop Elude and not dodge a single blow before death.

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You clearly don't have the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about. There is no revealed way to stop each pet's abilities from taking effect. Each is a separate caster and thus Glue Arrow would stack. Obviously they feel this is too good.

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Controller pets self-cancel. That is, only one summon can exist at a time. Hence, 'balanced'.
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An anchorless Slow, that is sticky...would be too good imo.

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Works fine for the Mastermind Poison set's Neurotoxic Breath, and for Shiver. Admittedly, those are cones, but they also aren't high aggro, and are very wide, so that difference really shouldn't break anything. A more apt comparison might be Freezing Rain, again, a lower degree of slow, but otherwise follows the same rules.
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Blue tries to claim that TA can't defend a team.

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THIS is a strawman. I said specifically that the problem isn't that TA can't defend a team. Admittedly a double-negative, but otherwise pretty correct. Perhaps having the rest of my post saying how, although TA can defend, other powersets can perform much better, should have been more strongly worded to make it clear..
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TA is a great set. You obviously can't play it very well.

[/ QUOTE ]How about this, Mieux. I can play Force Field. I can play Radiation, whose toggle-management is apparently a lot harder than I thought. I can play Storm Summoning. But apparently I can't play Trick Arrow worth mentioning, and if your set underperforms for someone with significant experience with several other sets, and in the hands of several other players who've player several other sets, can we assume that the rest of the playerbase is not ALWAYS the source of the problem?

Hm... I thought a few of those aspects had been removed when they were on test, Somberero. Well, I'll default to your knowledge of the set.

In which case :

Radiation can debuff defense to the point where accuracy enhancements are unneeded against purple-con mobs. Trick Arrow's doesn't seem to. Radiation can debuff regeneration every second of an Archvillian fight. Trick Arrow only for a short time (30 seconds out of 3 minutes?).

So, you're right. I guess it is more the size and relative utility, rather than the existance.

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My TA provides more debuffs, on average than my Rad.

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Then please never, ever, ever, play Radiation again. Radiation Emission can debuff defense. Trick Arrow can't. Radiation Emission can debuff regeneration. Trick Arrow can't. Radiation Emission has a Slow and Recharge debuff that's up 1/3rd of the time base. Trick Arrow's? 1/4th. Resistance debuffs? Trick Arrow falls behind whenever Hasten's down.

The one thing Trick Arrow can debuff that Radiation Emission can't? Perception. Oh, and Entangling Arrow. I'm sure we'll all miss that.

You can defend a team with Trick Arrow. The issue is that, well, another set could do so without having people stop becuase they killed the last spawn too fast, or tell them to hurry up while Flash Arrow's still active, or piss the hell out of their pets.

My general complaint isn't that Trick Arrow can't defend a team. I'm sure that, in teams that otherwise were doing well, you could stick in a corner and spam Flash Arrow all you want, and people would still get by. Teams don't need Defenders. They shouldn't need Defenders. We should still help more than our presence hurts.

The complaint is that, whether you look at a power-by-power comparison, or the set as a whole, it just doesn't do well enough.

Take Storm Summoning. Powerful, but not on the same level as Kinetics, Radiation, or Dark Miasma. You can do some damned impressive things, but that's more because of the player's skill getting brought out by the set, rather than the set doing most of the work. I'm sure most people would say that, outside of Hurricane, Storm Summoning's powers aren't extreme in the least.

Freezing Rain. Well, it's a resistance debuff, that's for sure. -30%, I think, though this is likely to change by i7. Base uptime of the debuff? Half of the time. Does about 2.48 BI every 60 seconds, has a nice defense debuff and decent slow. Compare that to Disruption Arrow, 25% uptime for a weaker resistance debuff, no secondary effects. Compare it to Oil Slick, which is not only more complex, but also up less often. Something like 6.5 BI every 180 seconds. No defense debuff, and lighting it for the damage reduces or removes the knockdown effect.

To get the effect of Freezing Rain, it takes 3 Disruption Arrows (for the same average resistance debuff), an Oil Slick for the knockdown, and another Oil Slick to get the damage. Half a Glue Arrow to get the slow effects. And, despite being a Debuff-only set, I don't think Trick Arrow can even mimic the defense debuff of Freezing Rain.

People SLOT Oil Slick for damage. Yes, that same power that basically meets just up with Freezing Rain!!

The problem isn't something that can be fixed with just a couple mild tweaks in numbers. Either the base concept'll have to be changed, or the whole set looked at HARD.

I'll try to come up with some examples soon.

Okay, first, take Swipe from the Claws powerset, then come back and talk to me about bad animations. Good? Good.

Second, your numbers aren't accurate. Barrage animates in less than 1.4 seconds. It is faster than Mace's Bash or Axe's Gash or Fire's Scorch, and the same speed as Frozen Fists. It, admittedly, does not do the damage of the above. Still makes it a good tanking tool when you're waiting for everything else to recharge.

While, damage per animation time-wise, it doesn't compare too well to Scorch, it's still significantly better than Brawl, nevermind Flurry or Jump Kick.

Sure, it could have the recharge increased to three seconds, which would put it equal with Frozen Fists exactly. Except you'd likely have some rebalancing to other powers in the Energy Melee to better match other sets and their animation times. And I'd rather not do that.

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I'm amazed the power... debuffs defense.

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:cough:

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* Graphics: Oil Slick's description says that it provides a defense debuff, however, there is no enemy graphic to indicate this. (Concern)

[/ QUOTE ]The Defense Debuff was removed before the power went live. The referrence in the short help is a mistake.

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Problem is that you'd end up with a Controller SECONDARY with three seperate hold powers. That's a *lot* to have in one place..

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You have to damage an opponent to wake them from sleep. Disruption and Glue Arrow shouldn't wake them. I don't think Oil would wake unless it was ignited...but I dont' have this.

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Knockdown/knockback/repel will break sleeps, and I don't believe sleeps cause immunity to Oil Slick's knockdown effect. Damage, of course, will. Pure debuff powers, however, will not. It's hard to say where Oil Slick stands.

That said, this is a MAJOR buff to the power. While I'll be the first to complain that sleeps break fast and often, it gives an easy way to reduce damage from adds, and another way to actually slot the power. In addition, even if the sleep does break, it's still damage mitigation.

And that said, why on earth is the one of the first reported buffs to Trick Arrow something Controllers will benefit more from than Defenders?

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I've got to disagree here. Unless you're fighting -1s or less, you'll barely even notice the debuff

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Quite true. Flash Arrow is far from Darkest Night or Hurricane. In fact, it doesn't seem to compare favorably to the tohit debuff on Twilight Grasp.

But TA/A doesn't get Twilight Grasp. So, while Flash Arrow's quite pathetic, even unnoticable, compared to anything outside of a Blaster secondary, it's still the best you get here, and as such, worth taking.

After all, what's your alternative? Ranged Shot?