Aura_Familia

Just to clarify for me it means only changing the colors of powers.

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I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.


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You're forgetting the other big hurdle to PC, Information Propagation. The reworking of the effects is the biggest hurdle, but it is by no means the only big hurdle.

When Issue 8 came out, a lot of people were spontaneously disconnecting on teams. As far as we can tell, it was happening because they had made a change that increased the amount of data being sent back and forth between players. Just one small change in the way the client/server passes data back and forth led to regular crashes.

PC would lead to a large increase in the amount of data being passed. Instead of shorthand that says "this guy has these 6 powersets, you know what those all look like go to town" the programmers need to come up with a way to pass that specific color info for each and every different power someone customizes, to every other player that can see it. If they do the bulk of it when someone loads into a zone, then you're looking at longer load times. And then they still have to pass fresh data when someone new comes in. If they do it dynamically there's a lot more data flying around. You think a Bots/FF can cause graphical slowdown now? Just wait until each rank of robot has custom blast colors, altered looks, and all the bubbles are customized for a Skittles Rainbow.

One of the strongpoints of the game is the speed of combat even when several players are around. Not just PvP, but PvE. Tinkering with that for the sake of new shininess alone is a dangerous Pandora's Box.

This is the crux of it: People who want this look at the issue with rose colored glasses, and consistently minimize the difficulties. I don't say that to be insulting, but it's obvious. People who are ambivalent to it (like me) look at it pragmatically, and can see a lot of the problems, and make the decision (for ourselves) that it probably wouldn't be good for the game.

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I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with longer load times. Thats just me though, I know some would, I have also thought of the passing of info as a problem, just one I would be willing to deal with

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I would bet you a month's subscription that a majority of the palyerbase would scream bloody murder if load times were increased just for the look of powers.

(For reference, see what happened when issue 7 hit with its slightly longer load times.)

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I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.


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You're forgetting the other big hurdle to PC, Information Propagation. The reworking of the effects is the biggest hurdle, but it is by no means the only big hurdle.

When Issue 8 came out, a lot of people were spontaneously disconnecting on teams. As far as we can tell, it was happening because they had made a change that increased the amount of data being sent back and forth between players. Just one small change in the way the client/server passes data back and forth led to regular crashes.

PC would lead to a large increase in the amount of data being passed. Instead of shorthand that says "this guy has these 6 powersets, you know what those all look like go to town" the programmers need to come up with a way to pass that specific color info for each and every different power someone customizes, to every other player that can see it. If they do the bulk of it when someone loads into a zone, then you're looking at longer load times. And then they still have to pass fresh data when someone new comes in. If they do it dynamically there's a lot more data flying around. You think a Bots/FF can cause graphical slowdown now? Just wait until each rank of robot has custom blast colors, altered looks, and all the bubbles are customized for a Skittles Rainbow.

One of the strongpoints of the game is the speed of combat even when several players are around. Not just PvP, but PvE. Tinkering with that for the sake of new shininess alone is a dangerous Pandora's Box.

This is the crux of it: People who want this look at the issue with rose colored glasses, and consistently minimize the difficulties. I don't say that to be insulting, but it's obvious. People who are ambivalent to it (like me) look at it pragmatically, and can see a lot of the problems, and make the decision (for ourselves) that it probably wouldn't be good for the game.

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This post from Lemur (as usual) brings up some excellent points. In all the time we have been discussing (and amazingly) in the various threads PC has never been fully defined.

Just what does everyone mean when we say "power" customization?

Is it colors?
Is it weapons? It it the looks, shape and size of weapons?
Is it the look of powers?
Should you be able to customize the color of each MM bot?
Should you be able to customize the color of each part of an MM bot?
What of the bot's blasts? Shape of them, how large the are in diameter, length?
What of the color of a forcefield? How large it is?
Should be able to color the burst color at your feet when you speed into ss?
What of the Kheld's? How customizable should they be?
What of the pink pomps of death? Should those be customizable for blasts as well as melee attacks? Or both?
What of the transparency of powers?
What of the shape of kinetics tranfusion? Should you be able to alter its color, density, transparency?

The assumption that it means the same thing to everyone could lead to a lot of issues.

Also I think it terms of customization, I think some folks would not be happy unless they could customize everything I stated on that list above.

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Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?

Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?

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*squeals the breaks bringing thread to a halt*

Hold on a minute!

Why the rush? Not really a rush, but let me just throw this personal experience at you.

When a programmer (most of them that I know anyway) gets busy on a project and gets into a groove the last thing they usually do is stop working on that thing to do something else.

Why? Because it throws them off, they lose their flow and train of thought.

I myself get stuck glued to the screen when I get an idea for a new project, it's very hard to pull yourself away when the groove sets in.

Ok, back to your regular scheduled posting.

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Oh I agree.

But I'm guess that breaking stuff into schedules is exactly what happens in an MMO. I don't think its possible to work on just one thing with an MMO "issue" scheudle.

I think MMO progarammign is a little different than regular programming.

but ofcourse having no programming experience, or mmo development experience, or knowing what cryptic's spaghetti code looks like, all this is talking outta my A**

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Well going off of what BaB had said, they would get kind of consumed with working on PC and the issues wouldn't be rolling out. So while they likely have schedules for content, in the programming world, they don't quite work like you'd want them to.

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Ya I remembered Bab's post after I posted what you posted in response to.

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Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?

Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?

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*squeals the breaks bringing thread to a halt*

Hold on a minute!

Why the rush? Not really a rush, but let me just throw this personal experience at you.

When a programmer (most of them that I know anyway) gets busy on a project and gets into a groove the last thing they usually do is stop working on that thing to do something else.

Why? Because it throws them off, they lose their flow and train of thought.

I myself get stuck glued to the screen when I get an idea for a new project, it's very hard to pull yourself away when the groove sets in.

Ok, back to your regular scheduled posting.

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Oh I agree.

But I'm guess that breaking stuff into schedules is exactly what happens in an MMO. I don't think its possible to work on just one thing with an MMO "issue" scheudle.

I think MMO progarammign is a little different than regular programming.

but ofcourse having no programming experience, or mmo development experience, or knowing what cryptic's spaghetti code looks like, all this is talking outta my A**

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Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?

Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?

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That doesn't really solve the problem.

The devs have stated that some people would have to spend so much time on PC that they'd get nothing else done for several issues. So that means over a year of work.

Let's say they just work on PC a little bit every now and then. Say, one day a week. One year just turned into 5 years. Is anyone here really satisfied a solution that gets us Power Customisation in 5 years?

Now lets say they devote more time to it. Those people who would be bogged down with PC spend half their time on it. That means we don't get PC for more than 2 years, and the things those people were working on all take twice as long. Nobody likes issues that skimp on certain types of features, especially when they do it several issues in a row. And nobody likes it when the issues get spread out to more than 6 months between them. We've seen both of these things in the past, so having worse versions of them would certainly be problematic.

Time spent working on PC is time spent not doing other stuff. Spreading that out over a long period of time doesn't change the fact that it's still the same trade off. The devs have looked at the amount of stuff that they'd have to delay to get PC, and they've made a decision. Perhaps that decision will change in the future. I'd love it if it did, but us asking for it a million times in a million threads doesn't really change the facts of the matter.

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You completely missed my point. They should work on it a little bit at a time, but they most certainly should not say its coming till its coming. They don't even have to tell us they are working on it. Just say its coming in an issue preview when its nearing release.

How long had they been working on Inventions before it was finally released?

The devs said it will take a long time. Let it, as long as we finally get it.

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So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.


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Actually, it does.

The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.

Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."

So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."

I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.

There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.

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I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.

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Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?

Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?

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I am all for letting them do it a bit at a time. I am all for it in any manner it comes, just let us know that it is and I will shut up and not post about it again. And yes, I can be held to that.

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I'm of the opposite slightly. I'd rather they do it a little bit at a time and ONLY tell us when its about to be released, in an issue preview. Stating that its coming at all will just lead to more "so what issue is it?" or the "devs lied, we still haven't gotten it in over 2 years" or worse if they end up having to drop it mid-way.

I'd rather they work on it behind the scenes (like everything else they do) and then announce it ONLY when its nearing release. The same way they did the powerset of dual blades.

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So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.


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Actually, it does.

The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.

Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."

So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."

I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.

There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.

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I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.

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Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?

Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?

Well, no reason to bother with RV now. Since most of the time its void of pvp, and since no team goes there, and you really can't use the heavies (unless you want to do the silly afk farming--which this change DOESN'T solve), I guess I can cross it off as a legitimate zone finally.

Just like bloody bay.

Any issue 10 update to this guide coming?

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OOC:

The Invasion will be ending Tuesday 8.7.07 as a daily event. It can still be triggered in a single, random zone through player actions, however. In addition, we are planning on bringing the full-scale Invasion event back on random days throughout August and September, and possibly beyond.

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It would have been nice if this could have been posted earlier, like when the players asked exactly when it was ending, thereby giving them more time to get it on their alts. As usual thanks for the prompt response to player questions....*sigh*.

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Ummm, they said before Issue even hit live that it would only be 2 weeks.

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You guys can argue all you want, but Posi has already cleared this up.

From his tone it seems like if it doesn't clear up that many names (which is ASININE to think so, since they already did the homework on it) they can also extend it or revise it.

As usual, I say take a wait and see approach.

Just because it doesn't free up the name *you* want doesn't mean it won't work.

As someone else alluded to up thread, it sounds like for some unless they get the exact name they personally want, they just going to declare it isn't working.

Sorry, but it sounds like some folks are going to be sorely disappointed.

Also, I'd argue (with no evidence to back this up ) that if it's a really qualtiy name, its probably a character someone cares about and is more likey than not on an active account.

Remember folks there are PLENTY of folks who might take a break (especially during the between issue lul) yet still continue to pay. That's an active account.

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And I think I'll go with the folks (the devs) that have ACTUAL DATA about how many trail accounts and names aren't used.

Pretty sure this will free up more than you think.

Besides Ex said if it doesn't work they can always adjust it later.

Leave it be for now folks.

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As an example, today I took 2 new alts to lvl 3. Now here is the funny part.

Just for giggles, I sent out a broadcast saying: "Anyone have 5000 influence they could spare a poor white guy?....I will return the influence owed 10x within the next 10 minutes"

A fellow hero under atlas broadcasted back and said: "Ill take that challenge!"

So he gifted me 5k and I said: "Be back in 10 mins flat"

I went straight to WWs and opened up the Crafted I/Os page and went straight to the lvl 45 Common I/Os. I scrolled down to the "Disorient Duration" I/Os....Selling for 300 a peice.
Bought 8 for 300 and 2 for 350...A total of 3100 influence. I then headed straight for G-City to cash in my first Vetran Respec.

Boom.....An instant 1,734,000 influence. Ran straight back to Atlas WWs and bought 10 more of the exact same...all for 400 inf this time for a total of 4000 influence.

Went back to G-City and burnt my 2nd respec....Boom....Another instant 1,734,000 influence banked.

Then I ran back to Atlas to repay the good willed hero back his 50,000 influence I promised him.

I finished in under 9 minutes doing both respecs. With leveling my alt up to lvl 3, It took me roughly 12 minutes to do so. Overall est. time: 21 minutes to profit over 3.4mill **I rolled a fire/energy blaster**

After that run, I deleted him and rerolled again. Respec'd 2 times selling the exact same I/Os as the first 2 respecs. 1,734,000 influence both times again.

Grabbed an SG mate and transfered to my lvl 32 Fire/Energy tanker and was over 6 million influence richer!


This can be done very easily...You just gotta take that little time to do it. Badgers and Crafters stock up WWs with these I/Os and sell em cheap....Take advantage of it.

Your Good Friend in the Money Making Business.........
FROZEN.

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This is THE BEST guide I have ever read on the fourms. Especially this last post.

Thanks for this!

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My guide to making your info appear next to your name in channel chat

yes, long title, shorter on the thread. Couldn't think of a good way to shorten it. Most likely good under binds? You decide.

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The link to this is broken.

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thanks for pointing that out

Found the problem, use this link.

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Thanks!

Title says it all. I couldn't find one. Just wondering if anyone made one.

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My guide to making your info appear next to your name in channel chat

yes, long title, shorter on the thread. Couldn't think of a good way to shorten it. Most likely good under binds? You decide.

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The link to this is broken.

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Well, suit yourself. I'm just telling you that, since you've already noticed that the exact thing you've asked for isn't posted, you can still get good resources. But if you're rather just get fruitlessly upset, that's your prerogative.

If you really feel you need specific advice on that build, then take what you gather from the guides on the separate powersets, come up with a build, post it and ask for a critique and help refining it. That's the usual route for players new to a build or an AT towards getting the build they want for the kind of play they're envisioning. If you need a build planner, Sherksilver's is a good one and pretty straightforward to use.

If that's too much to ask from you, then I'm pretty much at a loss.

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Except alot of these guides have not been updated in quite a while. The earliest I think is I7 for those particular ones. I think he was asking for something more up to date.

And your original post to him DID sound kinda snarky. Whether intentional or not.

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I would personally like to see a game where you can lvl by pvping ONLY.

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In Dark Age of Camelot (back when I played) you could lvl your character from 1 to 50 in PvP. It's not the same because there was still PvE, and you needed to PvE to get the uber loot to make you viable in PvP, but it was fun nonetheless.

I had a main character with loads of platinum to buy equiplent for all my alts, so I basically was able to avoid PvE'ing alltogether. Loads of fun.

(Unfortunately, to be able to compete in top-level PvP required non-stop PvE raiding for equipment and Artifacts, but lvls 1-44 were hellafun.)

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Yeah close, but still no quite there. I'm hoping fury doesn't bow to pressure and decided to add pve based raiding. So far it looks like the devs of the game are fairly consistent with their pvp-advancement only mantra and style.

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That is very close to what Guild Wars does currently, and works quite well (now) for the most part. One item to learn from the GW PvP character experiment was the fact that when certain facets of the game evolved, mainly armor switching in the middle of a battle, it gave an advantage to PvE characters over PvP only ones because a PvP only character can only have one set of armor. This created a great deal of frustration in the PvP community for quite some time, because that one disadvantage forced many of them to level PvE characters that they didn't want to.

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Interesting. I would personally like to see a game where you can lvl by pvping ONLY. Fury looks to be it. So far nothing else seems to be close.

And I mean 100% pvp, none of this having to dip into pve to get good armor.

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Getting back on topic, I agree pvp can be a big draw if its promoted and maintained, but I still say not by itself.

So far that hasn't been a game that can do that by itself. Fury on the other hand might.

What I'm saying is pvp and pve is needed together.


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I've tried to stay away from this thread but theres a fundamental flaw with this reasoning. If PvP and PvE are joined at the hip, per se, then how do MMOFPSes survive? Nobody plays Battlefield, Halo, or SW Battlefront for the PvE game (for more then a week anyways) and the PvE game has no effect whatsoever on the PvP game. Yet many players, such as myself, have racked up weeks on those games just on basic server PvP.

Yes, MMOFPSes are fundamentally different from MMORPGs, but they are very similar. I know for one I would jump at the chance to PvP without a significant PvE investment. I eagerly await both Fury and WAR. But my point is, it is and has been possible to create PvP focused games with no PvE.

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See the problem with this is FPS does not equal RPGs. If people wanted to play an FPS, they'd play an FPS. If they wanted to play an RPG they'd play an RPG. There is a reason its easier to balance one over the other. And that is inherent in the letters. Role Playing Game is mainly what they have been about. The grandaddy of them all, D&D was often built on the who player versus environment model. Sure GMs could give players a reason to fight. But traditionally it hasn't been that way. Hell the whole "alignment" issue shows this in that tradition. Granted, I think that's a flawed mindset. But I think that might be where RPG players (traditional) might come from.

And a PVP rpg does not exist yet. A pvp FPS exists. If people want to play an FPS more than this game, they are already there. What some are looking for is an RPG with FPS style, but that doesn't have the PVE grind. (And technically is that even an rpg anymore? I think it is, but some might disagree). That doesn't exist yet. (though Fury I hear is now in alpha or beta. )

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The game was successful from the start due to the gimmick, the audience that it appeals/appealed to. PvP can be a big draw if it is promoted and maintained - unfortunately, the pvp in this game hasn't received either of the two, promotion or maintenance - aside from promotion done by the playerbase.

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I went and looked back at the original post that started this discussion between us.

Getting back on topic, I agree pvp can be a big draw if its promoted and maintained, but I still say not by itself.

So far that hasn't been a game that can do that by itself. Fury on the other hand might.

What I'm saying is pvp and pve is needed together.

I'd even go as far as to say for this audience its the pve currently carrying it. If the pvp was that important to this audience the lack of maintenance and promotion to pvp, should very well have killed this game by now. I just don't pvp will ever be that important to this playerbase as a whole cause the dev's fist presentation of it sucked.

First impressions and all.

/shrug.

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Again, I don't think you quite understand how niche or gimmick is being applied here, considering you stated that MUO wouldn't be a "gimmick" launch. When it fact it would.

But okay, you don't agree with my "assumptions", you must think that Statesman's full of [censored] in regards to his goals for the game's launch, and the statistics for how the game sold out of the gate.

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Heh. Funny I've never heard Statesman refer to his game launch as being based on a gimmick.

Good job putting words in his mouth.

Sorry but it isn't a gimmick.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

And show me where you posted a link to those statistics btw?

EDIt: Also MUO would most definetly NOT be a gimmick, as Marvel is pretty much a household name. Seeing as how they just had a superhero movie that just made millions.

Also the assumption that those who read comics would play an mmo is just that. An assumption.

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I do think this game is part of a niche market. I am sure they acquired a ton of comic book and superhero fans. That doesn't mean everyone that plays is a comic book or superhero fan.

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I'm sure you're right in regards to their being players that aren't comic book or superhero fans. Originally this game didn't start out as "niche", the release was widely successful. WoW then blew the doors off in terms of "success". And rightfully so, Blizzard is practically a household name when it comes to PC games. The sustained success of WoW doesn't really surprise me at all.

The "gimmick" term is applied to the marketing tactic used to create a successful launch for the game. Again, I repeat that I'm sure it was Statesman's goal to create a largely successful game with a subscription base much larger than what the current one is. Thus, "gimmick" - adds in superhero comic books to appeal to that group of people. Superheroes in an MMO. That was the advertising focus. The game is now more of a "niche", hell even Jack himself has stated this.

The other features (no looting, etc) appealed to many players, undoubtedly. But the biggest thing at the start I'm sure was the idea of playing a Superhero. Just like Star Wars was aimed mainly at fans of the movies. Apparently that's hard for DarqAura to understand.

In regards to why the subscriptions didn't jump after the success of Heroes... Well, it's not like Cryptic decided to air commercials on NBC for the game. There hasn't been much more advertising that I've seen for the game recently, aside from the Internet.

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Oh I most certainly understand. I just disagree with your opinion and analysis. Which is all our views are, opinion.

And I think if you looked at the market at the time that this game came out it becoming a niche could be easily seen. There was still a crap load of fantasy games out, which were the most successful.

I just could never see this game becoming as large as WoW, even if it were another game made by someone other than blizzard. Cause the assumption was made that all those who enjoyed superheros would enjoy playing an mmo. That's a pretty big jump to make there.

The point about Heroes is well taken. Yet again even if they did advertise on that show, I don't think they would have gotten that many more folks. Cause again, can't assume that those who would watch a show like heroes would read a traditional comic book (traditional as in men in tights and cape type) or even play an mmo.

Now when the MUO comes out I can see it being more than a niche or a gimmick. Marvel is a household name in multiple entertainment fronts. I'd say they are just about as recognizable as Blizzard, if not more so. (Not going to discuss the DC game, as its being made by SOE.) Incidentally in trying to get back on topic I have heard that MUO will pvp from the start. But since so far its nothing but vapoware (so far) until 2008 or 2009, that remains to be seen.

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You're still missing my point about niche market, and gimmick advertising though, completely.

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No I get it, I just don't agree with your assumptions and reasoning.

Personally, I wouldn't touch Myspace with sanitized gloves, while wearing a biotoxin CDC suit and a faceguard.

But like someone said, its their company.