Zenyth
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Posts
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Joined
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Insomnia is the bane of my existence, but I do tend to have my best ideas when im trying to sleep and my brain wont let me. Cant take full credit for it as it was mostly something someone else said in another thread a week or so ago that set my mind to wandering like this. Anyways, on to the idea that'll never happen.
So hear me out, what if we removed the forms?
Yes, yes, im a madman, and it'll never happen. Ive already told you that myself; but thats oversimplifying the already rather simple idea. Besides, we aren't actually "removing the forms", just changing them into something more like stances out of other MMO's. I mean, theres really not THAT much difference between a tanker with the pyro epic pool and a dwarf who can use Gleaming Blast. The dwarf just has a slightly better set of ranged abilities. A Nova who can radiant strike is just finally embracing his blapper roots, and blaster's have toggle shields in their epic pools too.
The nitty gritty of the idea is that Dwarf and Nova become toggles, just like they are now but you wouldn't get locked out of your human form powers. So Dwarf would provide status protection, +MaxHP, less resistance than it does now, but still a little. Nova would provide flight, tohit, and a damageboost. Same as they do now, just without the extra powers and lockout of everything but the extra powers.
Everything that would need to be changed to make this work already technically exists too. Dwarf and nova would just change our models like Granite does, so we'd keep those. We would just have all our human form powers while IN the forms to compensate for the loss of the 8 or 9 we're given automatically when taking the forms like we do now. They're mostly clones of abilities we already had in human form anyways. Our old nemesis slot starvation would vanish in an instant. You could also treat the forms like the swap ammo powers from dual pistols, adding or removing a flag from our basic attacks (Like gauntlet taunt from attacks while in dwarf, or extra energy damage while in nova).
It solves the want for "human form mez prot" since they're effectively sharing the human form powers. No more having to wonder about the possibility of toggle suppression in forms either since there'd be no need. Light form retains its usefulness, the forms stop being quite so useless.
It doesn't solve all the problems, but it'd definitely make a dent in a lot. We can probably list off the pro's of this idea for a couple pages.
The Con's though, there are a couple major ones I can think of. The first is we'd need some animation work. Mainly providing animations for melee powers in Nova. Personally, id go for a tail slap for radiant strike, and sorta swooping dive for incandescent strike. Dwarf is a little easier since its still a humanoid skeleton, but there'd probably need to be tweaks all the same.
The second is that this is a rather LARGE change. It kicks down the cottage and while the forms would still be the same general idea, it is a pretty heavy revamp of the kheldians as we'd know them. In my opinion for the better, but I obviously cant speak for everyone.
The third major Con is that there'd probably need to be a heavy eye kept towards balance. This one change in concept has given dwarves a respectable ranged attack chain, and Nova some pretty hefty resistance (Not that it doesnt already have it with Light form/eclipse) and healing. I dont THINK it would throw things TOO far out of whack, but im just an armchair developer, so all my ideas need a couple grains of salt with them.
That brings us to the FOURTH major con, and the biggest. It kinda sorta technically invalidates human form entirely. I mean, why be in human when you can be in dwarf and be alot sturdier with all your human powers like normal? Why be in human when you can blast harder in nova and still keep all your shields? This one I've not really got an answer for, its not an insurmountable problem, but its one where you'd have to figure out some way of making human (and dwarf to a lesser extent) worthwhile in comparison to Nova with Lightform/Eclipse.
Anyways, that's the insomnia and sleep addled mind at work. The idea is almost TOO simple, and that's probably its downfall. The forms have always been a major part of AT, but also a noose around our necks. They'd still serve the same purpose but restriction and "clunk" are lost in equal measure. No more double mire, no more double reconstruction clone, no more spamming our Nova AoE's then our human AoE's, no more port in, solar flare, drop to human, solar flare. It'd definitely streamline our Kheld's as we know them, but we'd lose some of our workaround's and "little tricks" we've gathered over the years. We'd gain some new ones though.
Ill leave the rest of this discussion up to you all though. -
Quote:Ive been waiting patiently for several years. Im entitled to a little overreaction...especially when it just seems like the endless wait is going to be even more endless than it already is.Originally Posted by Redlynne
Zenyth ... CALM DOWN. You are already mischaracterizing the interaction I had with Arbiter Hawk by blowing things out of proportion with your own personal take and spin on events that you're hearing about second hand two and a half days after they happened! You're overreacting (badly) here, and I know you're better than ... this.
All I have to go on in regards to Kheldians is what other people post. All my information is second hand. Im too grumpy and antisocial to have Hawke or any dev on forum speed dial. I cant get out to these events, and I dont live anywhere in any semblance of the vicinity of a major or minor con or event that NCsoft and Paragon would show up to. So I have to filter my already filtered information. If Hawke wants to pop in and talk to us that'd be absolutely wonderful. The track record in general doesn't inspire me to hold my breath however.
It irritates me.
It irritates me because we've talked all our issues to death. We've summed up our thoughts repeatedly in attempts to make it easy for them. Why do we keep having to do this? Why do we keep HAPPILY doing this?
Insanity is endlessly repeating the same process and hoping for a different result.
Ive been at this since before ED. Before CoV. Before Inventions, Ouroboros, and Going Rogue. I've been around and playing my kheld THAT long. So have alot of others. Its frustrating, and I've just reached my limit. I was hoping for SOMETHING out of the Pummit, we DID get changes last issue, and while they've mostly invalidated our forms it was SOMETHING at least. Its very much a momentum thing though, and the longer this is drawn out the worse it feels like we built up just enough steam to ram right back into the wall. -
Quote:I never said there had to be grilling involved. Either he has something to say about us or he doesn't...and from Redlynne's post he didn't. They had to tell him about stuff from the knockup/knockback arguments we've been having for YEARS. Not "Since last issue", no, we've been going back and forth over knockback/knockup for YEARS.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I think that asking him to come and speak with us directly was the best thing Redlynne could have done. Grilling the guy in real life wouldn't have helped at all.
If he lurks so much, and they are honestly and truly wanting to put in the effort this archetype DESERVES, then they should have SOMETHING to say by now. The fact that they don't has always been disconcerting. Ive said it over and over and over, they have to talk to us. They haven't so far, and that's all I have to judge by.
He didn't want to make any more changes last issue because he wanted to see how the changes he had made played out. Did he just have nothing to say about that? Its been a couple months, is there nothing to say about his thoughts on that? Redlynne went over the same talking points that we've been going over for ages, and there was nothing worth noting said about any of that? Heck, HE didn't even tell us he wanted to see how things played out, we had to get that secondhand too!
That's my problem here. They keep saying they want to put in actual effort, they want to do right by us, and then we get this. We get this over and over, and over again but never more than an occasional bone thrown our way. There was all the talk about getting the animation and activation times of forms reduced. What happened to that? The Pummit would have been an EXCELLENT place to spill some beans for crying out loud, especially to the person who actively sought the dev out to talk specifically about some of these things. Why wasn't it? They can talk about their new shinies from sun up to sun down, but they cant even give someone an update on how things stand with Khelds? -
Quote:So he didn't have anything to actually SAY about kheldians?Originally Posted by Redlynne
*Snip*
Nothing concrete?
Nothing in the pipeline?
You just rehashed (Again) all our vast and varied discussions on the forums to get him "up to speed"? -
Quote:Sounds like a plan to me.Originally Posted by newchemicals
I know redlynne was talking with the devs about Peacebringers. It was suggested to Arbiter Hawk to come to the Kheldian forums to talk with us.
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If so, find out anything for the rest of us plebes who were stuck at our respective homes?
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Unfortunately, we wont get a complete rework. That's just not in the cards. Its a lot of work for little "payout" from the devs point of view, and from the player's point of view not everyone will be on board with such an overhaul to begin with. At best we'll maybe get changes to individual powers as long as they're not TOO drastic. Personally, Ive always liked the idea of the forms being more like "stances" from other games. For starter's it'd go a long way towards clearing up our slot starvation, but at the cost of not having as many powers to abuse for slotting IO sets. Its probably just a bit too drastic a change though.
I will say I am not on board with this "The forms are good for leveling, who cares if they're useless at 50" train of thought though. NO power should become obsolete based on if you pass a certain level. No power should become obsolete PERIOD as far as I'm concerned...So no, I do not agree with that one bit.
The problem is, they cant really fix any one thing without breaking something else. They "fixed" lightform, well that broke forms. If they "fix" forms, that'll probably break something else, which when fixed will break something else. They cant really add more abilities, we're slot starved as is and they cant fix that without breaking much of the game as a whole according to...Synapse I think was trying to add more slots at one point...If they buff up the powers in the forms then they risk overshadowing the human form abilities and we end up in the reverse of this situation. An overhaul would alleviate that problem, but I've stated above why an overhaul isn't in the cards. -
Quote:Tri-form.Originally Posted by Bionut911
Human, Bi, or Tri-form? Why?
I think that the forms are kinda the 'intended' way to play. I dont begrudge anyone their desire to stick to one form, but its kinda the "gimmick" of the AT. In the same way that dual blades has its attack chains, or dual pistol has its ammo. A PB/WS just doesnt feel right if it doesn't shapeshift a little...at least to me.
A lack of synergy. The base mechanics and concepts work against each other too often. Our strongest attacks are melee in nature, but we've got a ton of knockback. We have a low magnitude stun, and a hold that really should be a matched set. Nova and dwarf don't provide strong attack chains, take too long to animate, and turn off our toggle defenses, and now with the advent of perma-lightform...aren't really worth taking at all except to use for IO bonuses.Quote:What is "wrong" with Peacebringers?
I dont have one myself, so this is all an outsider looking in sorta perspective; but id say that the Warshade's main problem is they have gimmick; and while its a good gimmick, its kinda hamstrung them on any other problems they might have. You cant really change their gimmick because the players would scream bloody murder if you did, but because of that they cant get changes as easily because its like trying to clean the lion cage while there's a hungry lion in it.Quote:What's wrong with Warshades?
Lack of power synergy like I stated before, and there just aren't that many unique abilities. A great deal of human form abilities (On peacebringer's at least) is that they're almost directly copy pasted from other powers in other sets. Not even subtly so. Just direct copypasta of things like reconstruction, dull pain, footstomp, nova, group flight, etc, etc, etc, and the only real changes were to change the names and the damage types to energy. Its the lack of thought put into peacebringer powers thats the real problem. Its like they were designed by throwing darts at a board of other powers and then just slapped into place with the slight modifications to their damage types. There's just so little rhyme or reason to a lot of them.Quote:What's wrong with the respective human forms?
They don't really. The VEAT's were designed with a whole lot of lessons learned in what NOT to do with EAT's that were learned from the screw ups with the Kheldians. They provide more to their teams, while not really losing anything themselves. They actually bring something to a team besides a simple gimmick, and the occasional clunky shapeshifting. While I wont deny the benefits that the toolbox of abilities Kheld's can bring, they aren't really anything worth noting with incarnate abilities and the epic/patron pools available to other AT's. When khelds were first added to the game they were jack's of all trades, and that was potentially useful (Outside the draconian overbalancing because of the hybrid nature of the AT); but now everyone is a jack of many trades, we've kinda lost our purpose.Quote:How do they, if at all, compare to VEATs -
Quote:Well I did take the PB's Restore Essence power...I get up alot after falling down.Originally Posted by HardRider
Rise......
RISE.....
RIISSEEEEE!!!!!!!! -
Quote:Don't forget it wasn't just a damage deficit, we were 30% resistance in the hole too!Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Dude... when Kheldians first came on the scene, they received a damage DEBUFF when they were soloing AND Quantums did unresistable, special damage to them. That's in addition to all the stuff I can honestly argue for improving with Kheldians AFTER these changes in I21 and I11.
They weren't balanced when they came on the scene in the slightest, ED or no ED. I love Kheldians, but I will be honest about how they have been designed in the weirdest way possible (around their good points). Hopefully Arbiter Hawk keeps working on them and gets them to where they would need to be. I would love to be able to not argue for changes with them anymore, kind of like I don't have to for Fiery Aura anymore (even if Fiery Aura's lack of KB protection still sticks in my craw).
For my two cents on the new changes, I think Joe is on the right track as well... we're rather survivable, but I'm not sure that this makes up for our other shortcomings. I'd almost take less resistance if it meant I could do other stuff better, but I don't know that we have to go there. VEATs are ridiculously survivable and do good damage AND buff themselves and their team.
Thats right, enemies did 30% more damage to us if we were alone back in the day. The toggle shields allowed us to break even. -
I keep getting the following error...
"Unable to read data - Index was outside the bounds of the array"
Also, anytime I try and change power pools I also get an Unhandled exception error.
The first happens with my peacebringer build (I dont have a warshade one handy to check, but I imagine its the same), and the second happens for peacebringers and warshades, but not a defender build I tested. The first error didnt occur with the defender build either.
I cant even load the PB build from a data chunk...I uninstalled and reinstalled a couple times and after the first always ran as admin. -
Quote:But I don't want to die of alcohol poisoning...Originally Posted by Steelclaw* UStream Drinking Game... Hear a tangent... Take a shot...
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Quote:So you've got power choices and enhancement slots to spare? I wish I did...Originally Posted by Oathbound_Too
Something I'd kind of like to see for Khelds is for them to get 2 Archetype specific APPs, one with powers only usable in Nova form, and one with powers only usable in Dwarf form. So that those players who want to flesh out one form or the other can do so. This also could help solve the problem of Perma-Lightform Human PBs making White Dwarf kind of obsolete.
Nova form could get a tier3 blast, a couple soft/single target controls and a utility power or two.
Dwarf form could get say, a high damage melee attack, a bit more survivability, a taunt aura type power and a bit of utility.
Its not a bad idea, but we just don't have the power choices or the slots to handle it unfortunately. Ive got maybe, 2 power's worth of wiggle room in my build, and no slot wiggle room at all. All that talk in the beta forums of an extra three slots had me seeing double rainbows, let me tell you...but thats not happening...
I think part of the problem is we HAVE to slot our form powers. Did you know at one point in time the form powers were intended to be unslottable? They'd have their enhancement bonuses baked right in from the start. Which is both a good thing and a bad thing. They decided the lack of choice outweighed the good of not being slot starved so now we have to juggle our same base number of slots as everyone else with our Nine or so powers we get above and beyond everyone else.
I really think an APP or something like that wouldnt be horrible, something to "focus" the kheld and provide a greater boost while in one particular form...but at the same time I just don't have the wiggle room in my build for it. If it was one choice for a small pile of powers that didn't require slotting then that might make it a little more agreeable, but I just dont have that many powers I can drop, and I definitely dont have any slots I can spare. -
Quote:Well, at this point in time I'm well beyond accepting it. I've put in too much time and effort to my PB to just throw away. I'm just waiting for a catalyst to push me someplace...Either something to show us they're serious, or something to show us they don't give a rats patoot. Regardless, I'm fast reaching a point where I'm going to have to make a decision if I want to stick around with CoH or not...and while my situation isn't likely to be a very common one, how they treat the AT I've declared my "main" is going to either keep me here and paying, or send me looking elsewhere for entertainment.Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Ultimately, that's their call, though, and if the devs think Peacebringers are fine, well, there's nothing we can do but accept it and play something else.
The time between I21's launch and I22 is gonna be make or break for me. Yeah, I realize I'm taking this really "SRS BZNS!" style; but in my defense I've played my kheld since they were released, my first character was a broadsword/invuln scrapper, but I put him away pretty much the minute Kheld's were available. I've then spent the last 6 years or so playing him primarily. So I do take this seriously, I've just plain got a lot of time and effort put into my PB. A lot of anger and frustration as well; but no one can accuse me of being impatient. I think 7 years of waiting is long enough...too much really. -
Quote:Alternate Counter...Originally Posted by Diggaroo
Counter to Counter: Here's a question; Do the devs view Kheldians as ONLY team players? (Sort of like defenders?) Because, if so, they would be justified in using our inherent as an excuse. Otherwise, it should be no excuse whatsoever. Most AT's can EASILY do +1x4 missions (with or without bosses.) Kheldian Human Forms (PBs especially) struggle with soloing. And honestly, every archetype should be able to solo at level 50, having some sort of way to deal with mez control for everyone's playstyle.Quote:Originally Posted by ZemblanityThe only counter I can find is the hypothetical abuse of a Kheldians' inherent, where they snatch +140% damage bonus from their team-mates, OR +7 mag prot, OR +70% res. It's the only circumstance where it's justifiable to fear "Peacebringers becoming overpowered". Some might argue that Human Form is only weak if you don't team, or if you team with the wrong kind of people, and [sarcasm]woe to you and your future grandchildren if you haven't yet learned the value of massive knockback in your attacks![/sarcasm]
There's your counter. A weak one, I know, but enough to keep the buffs away for the moment. IMO, until that inherent is looked at, there's never going to be any serious buffs coming this way.
And worrying about Kheldian's becoming OP? I'm sorry, but that's too sad to even laugh at. Even Warshades, who can be truly epic, aren't that OP. Besides, it takes a massive learning curve to play them and the awesome purple destruction is a fair reward for learning such a difficult playstyle.
TL;DR - If mez protect/Knockdown makes a Kheldian OP, then obviously Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and VEAT's are gods.
140% damage out of a 300% damage cap. Nova brings 45% itself, so you're likely to be brushing the damage cap pretty hard as a PB. You'll have well surpassed it as a Warshade double mired.
Same goes for the potential 70% resist. We've got a hard cap at 85%. Which WS's hit fairly easily through eclipse, and PB's will be hitting a lot more often through the updated Lightform. So most of that extra resist is just sitting there doing a whole lot of nothing. Cant even argue its useful in Nova or Dwarf, Eclipse has always carried over, and here shortly Lightform will too.
The Mag 7 mez prot isn't all that hot either. If you've got 7 controllers/dominators on your team everything is locked right down, and if it isn't then you've got lazy controllers.
So the oft quoted "overpowered inherent" isn't really as overpowered as people would like to claim it is. The most useful being the damage buff...but the thing to keep in mind is how often do you see teams composed entirely of tankers, defenders, masterminds, and corruptors? I don't know about anyone else, but most of the time I'm seeing teams composed of a healthy smattering of everything...with a bit of a bias towards brutes and scrappers, but not overly so. The resist is just overdoing it. Both kheld AT's will cap their resists fairly regularly on their own now, so the 70% we'd get out of our inherent is kinda wasted. The mez prot is either too little or unneeded thanks to nothing being able to act anyways from being locked down. There needs to be some changes made. I've stated elsewhere I think our shields should be defense instead of resists to help deal with the problem of resists from the inherent being useless. I also think the mez prot from controllers should be boosted to 2-3 per controller.
Unfortunately, we've had ideas like these for years now and the devs have always steadfastly stood behind their "We're worried of making you OP" defense...which as we've all pretty much agreed is ridiculous. They wont talk to us though, and other than the occasional bone thrown our way to shut us up they don't seem interested in taking their past screw ups seriously. We'll get another patch job like the last time in I-13, and that'll be the last we hear about kheld changes for another 3 to 4 years... -
I just hope the mind wipe doesn't take away his memory of my rock...
Though lets be honest, if you got taken out by a simple rock, you'd probably request that memory be erased yourself. -
Quote:No you should stop making pointless comments that all boil down to "Just give up".Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Another strawman deal here lol -
If you tell your wife that you really want to spice up the bedroom and she says shes gonna work on it, but never does and years pass by...whats that tell you?
You are not talking to yourself hence the great discussions found just in this one thread. The hundreds of pages of people talking about changes, improvements and ideas on the Kheld forums seems to indicate thought that the devs have other priorities. Should i go back to my chocolate cake for dinner reference?
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Quote:Unfortunately, my confidence isn't all that high.Originally Posted by Zemblanity
They're busy.
And unlike a not-so-distant past where the devs claimed the same without showing anything for it, this time they do have something big to show for. Freedom.
Nevertheless, they already allowed Arbiter Hawk to take a look at Kheldians, including a minor emergency patch in i21, as well as an unspoken wink that they're on top of things. The best we can do now is make them aware of our experiences, issues, playstyles and what exactly we'd like to see improved.
I hate it when "players" (meaning, usually, methuselah posters "speaking for the whole forum community" while blatantly ignoring the unspoken majority that doesn't even visit the forums) come up with the changes themselves and treat the devs as mere spectators. It usually involves unfair quid pro quo negotiations and false assumptions based on hunches and shoddy math, taking 10% from this power and giving 5% to that power, leaving the situation relatively unchanged while boosting specific playstyles and strategies. Things like "there's no need to worry about kb in Energy Blast because you can hover-blast" or "you can't change the FF/Thermal/Cold shields into AoEs because it would involve a significant increase in end/rech".
What I do like is when a competent, creative dev with access to a significant amount of datamining reports reads up on a large sample of feedback and suggestions, promotes a healthy discussion that includes a group of level-minded 7 year veteran players (like Grey Pilgrim or Arcanaville) and takes all that into account when implementing the changes said dev believes necessary.
And please, don't force us casual players to have to lobby and haggle for every little change. Giving suggestions is one thing, but demanding specific changes, or worse, putting an embargo on every idea because you don't like it... that's taking it too far.
Zenyth, I'm with you on Peacebringers (they need a full revamp, badly), but recent history has raised my confidence in this dev team to unprecedent levels. Freedom is very well done, as is First Ward, as was GR, and if they're investing in that type of thing, more power to them - even if it means rolling VEATs and brutes until they have a chance to look at Kheldians, poison, gravity, electric blast, weapon redraw, leading hostages to the exit, and all the other things that are long overdue for a revision...
And they're busy? Really? They seem to have enough time to talk about all their new shinies, and how they're gonna keep making new shinies...while their rusty old crap continues to rust...
They've said they want to work on Khelds, all I want is a show of just how serious they are. Not random changes that cause more problems (Im looking at you lightform and kheld resistance cap). I love a good discussion, but if they're gonna be working on kheldians I think they need to keep us in the loop. They seem real talkative in the closed beta when there was only, as far as I know Grey Pilgrim to talk to...and then they go stone cold silent the minute we hit open. Id love to discuss the changes they've already made with them, but they wont even talk to us about THAT!
Im not asking too much here, I just want some sign that we're not just talking to ourselves in here. -
Quote:Well, im kinda hoping if they're as serious about this as they keep telling us they are that you know...maybe they'll take the request seriously...Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
The world hunger concept was more about me wishing people felt as strongly about that problem as you do about Kheld changes, but strawman is as strawman does. All I'm saying is that you can ask the devs to talk to you about something that people have been asking the devs to talk about for years. Honestly (no snarky), I hope it works out better for you than it has for everyone before you that have felt so passionately about the same topic.
My inner pessimist thinks this is just another "Shut the khelds up, give em some changes, then ignore them for another 3 to 4 years". Everything they've done so far points me towards that. It makes me angry, so thats why Im so serious about this. Ive about reached my limit, if you look at my "joined" date, ive been here since the beginning almost. I made my Kheld pretty much the week they became available, and I've been riding the Kheld train almost exclusively ever since. I cant take another "just to shut them up" effort. Fixing Kheld's has been LONG overdue, and while my inner pessimist says they're not gonna do anything, my inner optimist hopes they're taking fixes seriously this time.
I want them to talk to us because they need to. We've lived with silence out of them for way too long. Even if its just to reassure us that they really meant what they said, that they really are working on Khelds...I just want to hear it in some fashion thats not second hand being passed down from another player. Its a whole lot more than they've said to us in the past. There are other reasons, which ive stated up above, but ive got my own reasons for it too. Call me "Needy", I am, but ive got my reasons for it. I really do like the game, and I really do like my Peacebringer...but theres just so much wrong with him that has been wrong with him for years now. I just want to see fixes done right, and that really will be easier if they talk to us. It'll be easier on us because we'll be getting feedback on all those random ideas we've thrown out over the years, and it'll be easier on them because if we know what they think, we can focus our feedback. Silence doesn't help anyone. -
Quote:Again, strawman.Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Just like with PvP, the devs know what changes players want for Khelds. Like...I don't have to discuss it with my folks that I'd rather eat chocolate cake for dinner most nights, they're already privy to the concept since I'm so vocal about it. They just chose to give me spinach and liver instead for whatever crazy reasons.
It's healthy/productive to talk about Kheld or PvP changes on the forums, but there has to come a point after years of the same ideas being presented when you realize there's no point in getting worked up or expecting a lot.
As some say, "hope for the best, but expect the worst".
Your dinner, and world hunger have about as much in common with the devs talking to us as ponies have with nuclear physics.
Im not asking for anything but the devs to talk to us. Im not asking for my changes, im not asking for your changes, im not asking for anything but the devs to TALK TO US so that between us we can figure out the best way to go about changes in a way thats good for them AND for us.
Is that really asking too much that the people making the changes talk to us? -
Quote:Strawman.Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyanIf people felt this strongly about world hunger, noone would go starving.
The devs will eventually fix Khelds or they won't. I love mine but y'know...meh.
Can they be fixed without drastic changes? No, I dont think they can. I dont think the AT's need a complete overhaul, but I do believe its going to take more than making this power cool down a little faster, or that power have a longer duration.Quote:Originally Posted by TechnoraidFix khelds... like they fixed PvP?
I don't mean that as saying that the devs did wrong there, but it was a fix that made a lot of people unhappy.
There are some people who like them as they are. They can't make major changes without making them unhappy.
I suppose what it comes down to is this 'Can they be fixed without drastic changes'?
But im not asking for any of that...Im not asking for anything but the devs to TALK TO US, so we can figure out the best way to change things with the LEAST amount of making people unhappy. Someones gonna be unhappy regardless, but id rather we figure it out between the players and the devs rather than the devs just make changes and hope they dont make everyone grumpy. -
Quote:I don't want promises.Originally Posted by Grey PilgrimWe're not going to get that much discussion with a developer about changes, before they are brought forward in a beta, though. As much as I would like to hear more, the devs just don't work like that. At best, I've heard a developer say "oh, we'll try to work on that." We never get an ETA, or even an exact description of what that is.
And for good reason. They don't want to make promises that they can't keep, and they need to be able to toss around ideas and even see how things work in a closed beta. That's how it is.
We already have word from a powers developer that he is reading our suggestions and keeping an eye on Kheldians, and that he is going to wait and see how well the current changes do. We even have a promise that more will come when animation and FX time can be used (though I'm still worried about how soon that will be). That is more than a lot of people asking for changes to something in game are getting at this point (Stalkers, PvP, Bases, Gravity users, etc.).
I hear what you are saying and would love to hear more about what they are thinking, but I know it's not going to happen. We're just waiting to pounce on anything Arbiter Hawk would say as well, so that's going to be part of the problem as well. Being critical but fair, and making strong arguments via numbers, comparisons, and performance is the way to go.
Last but not least, I DO want more changes to Kheldians, and think we're doing mostly okay with arguments to that extent. We can keep it up and keep this being noticed, and hopefully more will come between I21 and I22, or in I22 (since their development setup is different than it has been before, I don't know what to expect).
I don't want their word that they're REALLY paying attention to us this time...honest...
I want them to talk to us about our AT. They absolutely LOVE talking about their shiny new powersets and content, but they out and out REFUSE to talk about their past failures...and the Kheldians ARE a failure. No matter how much we like them, they are an early failure of design. A failure they learned from in designing new shinies, but a failure they've neglected to truly FIX for SEVEN YEARS all the same.
I can't argue for changes when I don't know what can and cannot work. It's why I'm arguing for this dialogue so much. I want to HELP THEM, but I cant HELP THEM, if they just sit around in stony silence while I flounder around with all my random ideas that they may or may not be able to use. Silence isn't helping us or them at all. We flounder for ideas we think they'll like and then they flounder for ideas they think will make us happy...It's like all those games where someones blindfolded and the other guy has to tell them how to navigate an obstacle course...only in this case BOTH parties are blindfolded, and neither knows which one is supposed to be doing the running.
Its a gigantic cluster**** is what it is...
You said yourself we need to keep making our arguments for change...well, this is my argument. We need a change in relations with the devs before we even worry about where to start with fixing Khelds. Our problems are large enough that we need to know what they want out of us before we even bother trying to think up what we want to change and how.
We need to talk about WHO all is doing these changes so we know who we're talking to. Is it Hawk alone? Are Synapse and Black Scorpion involved? Like you said their new strike team format is different than it used to be, who is on the Kheld strike team?
We need to discuss WHERE we think Kheld's should be in the grand scheme of things, are they happy with us at the bottom of the heap? I know im not.
We need to talk about WHAT they want to see done, and what we want done so we can meet in the middle.
We need to figure out HOW this is going to effect the rest of the game. I don't want to be brokenly overpowered, but I definitely want to be valuable and useful to my team.
We need to settle on WHEN we will get the majority of these changes, spread out over several issues, all at once. We need a general timeline. If they cant keep it, apologize, we'll understand as long as we know we haven't just been backburnered again.
And we need to make sure we all know WHY the devs wont let this happen again, because I absolutely WILL NOT settle for another patch job like our last "fix" three years ago.
I want them to talk to us so that we aren't just wasting time, ours and theirs floundering around blindly. It's not how they normally work, but this isn't a normal situation in the slightest. It shouldn't be treated as one either. No other AT has been in a pickle as long as ours has. No other AT has mechanics that work even remotely like ours, and no other AT has been neglected as long as ours has.
I don't want promises, or their word, I just want to talk to them so that we're all on the same page so we can do this RIGHT the first time. -
Quote:That's just it, I'm not expecting them to have all this done before I21 hits. I just want them to TALK TO US about our AT. This isn't something they can just read the forums and stay silent on, we are not in a position where one or two changes are going to fix everything. Its just not possible, no matter how much we might want it to be. They're going to have to put ALOT of work into this simply because its NOT that simple. I wish it was easy, but its not.Originally Posted by Grey PilgrimTo reply to these and the little bit of discussion about what Arbiter Hawk does, he said he has been getting more involved with powers as of late. I think Synapse and Black Scorpion are the main powers guys still, but he's helping out. Though it's hard to say now that they have the task forces or whatever they are calling their groupings working on development.
I have to say yet again, though, that we just have to keep making a strong case for our ideas. We're probably at the limit for what is going to happen with I21, but that's not the end of the world. We know more is planned to fix animation issues in the future, and in his very first PM to me, Arbiter Hawk said he was open to ideas about how to improve the QoL or functionality of existing powers for Kheldians, and he wanted me to share them. He also said he read the Kheldian forums thoroughly and played Kheldians a lot in preparation for the changes. I haven't agreed with every statement he has made about Kheldians, but his being openness and work does say something.
There are a lot of balls being juggled with I21, so I'm not that surprised that we are sitting where we are for now. I'm pleasantly surprised that we got changes for I21 (since the best I had heard just before Closed Beta was I22 for changes), and as long as Arbiter Hawk stays open to ideas (and we make a good case for our ideas), we're in a good spot. I just hope action can be taken on things by I22.
So, in short, I will be down in the dumps with our status if nothing else happens by I22. But until then, keep in mind that the door is open for ideas, and don't expect them to happen overnight.
We absolutely REQUIRE a dialogue between the devs and the players on this. Its statements like the superstrength one that we need it, so we can AVOID them in the future. How can we make a strong argument when we have no clue WHAT they think of the arguments we've already been having? Filtering down the Word of Dev through the prophet Grey Pilgrim just ain't gonna cut it here. They HAVE to talk to us, or there's no point in us even bothering. They'll flop around hoping to hit what they think are the right changes, screw up for some of us, and since we had no idea what they were thinking we're gonna get even angrier than we are already.
I'm not asking for anything but for them to take some time to talk to us. I know they're busy, but I honestly think its necessary. -
Quote:I woulda been there with you except for prior engagements yesterday.Originally Posted by Redlynne
I kept asking Kheldian Questions during the Q&A section and Zwillinger kept studiously ignoring them. Was rather annoying since Arbiter Hawk has been the ... most communicative ... of the Red Names on Kheldian Issues up until this point.
I really don't have my hopes up that they're going to do anything worthwhile with us. Everything I've seen so far screams "Do a couple things to shut em up, then forget about em". They've done nothing to show me that they're actually going to TRY and fix us...just another patch job, the last one we'll get for a couple years.
The first strike against them is they wont talk to us...
The second is they insist they're talking ABOUT us, but they've been doing that as long as I remember, which leads me to believe all the talk consists of "Kheld's are whining again" and that is it...not that they're talking to us to tell us what they're saying about us in the first place.
The third is of course such WONDERFUL comments as "Changing knockback to knockdown would give PB's more AoE damage than Super Strength"...
Three strikes, they're out...and so is my hope that anything serious is going to occur. -
What is the Kheldian surprise?
Quote:The guy working on us has been primarily busy getting zone events and giant monster's working. In particular the Seed of Hamidon and stuff in the Halloween trial. Likely was given khelds to "practice" with. Might explain why he doesn't wanna mess with too much.Jeff Hamilton aka Arbiter Hawk has been working at Paragon for about a year as assistant system, he does monsters and villains and zone events and such. He started off in QA. Even though he's not QA anymore, he's kept the Arbiter name.