AlienTwo

Socorro really hit on the heart of the issue here. Obsidian is really trying to prove that tri-formers can score a 100 on the "gameplay test", while human-form builds can only score a 50. Or a 25. Or a 10. Hell, I don't know what he thinks a human-form should score. Probably 0, judging from his heated posts about how much they suck "comparatively speaking."

The REAL question is, what IS the test?

Is it time-based? Taking down an 8-man mob as a tri-former a few seconds faster than a human form can?

Is it mezz-based? The tri-formers can hit a button that changes them to dwarf form, while human-formers can hit a break free?

Is it surviveability-based? How long you can last in a "en masse battle royale?"

Is it PvP-based? Which build can survive longer in a one-on-one fight or in a team-based fight? Arena?

Is it TF-based? Which form performs better exemped down, or which form performs better when handling continuous ambushes, etc.?

Is it AV-soloing-based? Which form can actually do it? There was actually a thread recently which discussed that a Kheld isn't powerful enough in ANY form (human, dual, tri) to take down an AV solo... So, I doubt this is the true test....

It's all situational-based. You can quote "numbers" all you like, but when you're not referencing anything like "These numbers work when you're soloing an 8-man mob" or "This is the numbers when teamed with 4 players" or "This is your true numbers when soloing an EB", then how are the "numbers" actually PROVEABLE? They're not, because there are different numbers, depending on the situation. If you're basing your numbers off a continual attack chain as a tri-former, and in that "situation" you're suddenly for no reason hit with a "stealth strike," then that's going to mess up your "attack chain numbers over 1 minute" isn't it, because you're going to interrupt it to heal! Situations, a player's skill, a players experience, even what inspirations they are currently holding change what happens in a real-time battle.

Until I can actually see a MAJORITY of Kheld players proving that they can actually play in game, I'm not going to base what I say on "what if we're both even with skills"... I may be able to say to someone "On paper, a tri-former will do this," but I can't guarantee that the person who makes that build is ACTUALLY going to be able to pull off those numbers IN-GAME, because I don't know their skill.

It's just not fact-based when you make assumptions like that, even with numbers.

"The One"

Revisions for a small percentage of players of the game?

*ahem*

i13 PvP changes, anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

"The One"

This is exactly the sort of post that proves that you're basically out to just attack me personally, and not really contribute much to these forums other than argumentative posts.

I HAVE done PvP with my WS. I HAVE been killed switching forms. I HAVE been killed in all three forms. I HAVE had some "wins." Eclipse is NOT very useful when you're playing ONE ON ONE (as I stated before-again, just repeating myself, because you seem to be too thick-skulled and dense for reading comprehension). So, that's speaking from experience, and not speculation, as your misinformed and ignorant opinion seems to tell you I am speaking from. I just don't consider myself a "PvPer," because I don't do it "often," and therefore admitted it right from the start.

You don't know me. You don't know my experience. You don't know how many hours I've put into the game. You don't even know the extent of my knowledge of games in general, much less CoX. So, you can take all your "speculation" about me as a player (because that's all it really is--SPECULATION) and go f**k yourself with it.

Maybe that'll relax you a little bit. Sounds like that's what you need.

"The One"

Agreed, although I doubt all the guys competing against Lance Armstrong were couch potatoes, or it wouldn't have been that big of a feat, especially after having cancer, which, I would think would severely adjust the numbers AGAINST him, odds-wise.

Now, if I can just get you to admit to the ratio of poorly-played WSs out there to well-played ones... We might be on to something here.

"The One"

This is where we disagree. Skill plays a HUGE factor into it. I've played my human form 'shade for years. My friends don't like playing shades, and therefore are not skilled in playing them. If I were to try and to a run of a mission mapped for 8 in my human form, and they were to do the same mission as a tri-former, I would outperform them. Why? Skill. Experience.

Using your own example of "athletes," this is especially the case. You could spout off as many numbers you want about the "capabilities" of an athlete based on his body strength, height, reflexes, etc... But, a SKILLED, EXPERIENCED player will beat him, hands-down.

There are examples the world over of athletes who have defied the "records," and through skill, experience, and determination beat the "odds."

I'm sure, "numbers-wise", there were more physically capable athletes out there who could have won the Tour de France, but Lance Armstrong proved that you can beat the competition through skill, experience, and sheer determination.

So, while a tri-form will outperform a human form in an "ideal" situation (yes, I'm admitting to it yet again), skill and experience may make up a lot of that ground, depending on the particular situation.

I know a ton of people who would rather team with me, due to the fact that I know what the heck I'm doing on my 'shade, than any PL'd "YAY, I just got a 50 Kheld!" AE player out there, tri-form or not. If I'm leading a team (which I do quite often), I don't look at what powers a person has picked, I look at their vet status and the rest of their badges (specifically to see how much of the game they've actually experienced outside of AE). Set bonuses also show how much "love & care" a person has put into that particular toon. I don't base inviting someone to the team on whether they have set bonuses or not, but that can be a factor for my determination on if they have spent any significant amount of time playing the game outside of AE.

Skill matters, whether you want to admit to it or not.

"The One"

Considering the amount of argumentative posts he's put up about the way I prefer to play, or the fact that he seems to ridicule pretty much anyone who chooses to play that way....

I'd actually say that he is.

"The One"

But...but... How could it be called a "tank" mage, if it's not "tanking?"

(har-dee-har, har)

"The One"

I still don't understand how you've got some sort of assumption that I think human-form is "the best." I've stated over and over and over and over and over that I don't. I guess if one is aggravated at another person enough, they'll just think whatever they want about them, and nothing will change their minds.

And I have also stated I could do it alone as well, albeit a few seconds longer than it would without a FS. Go ahead. Go back and check it out.

Now THAT is exactly correctomundo! THAT is what I'm trying to promote here. THAT, my friend, is what it's all about. And, I'd guess that's what you're wanting as well--to promote competent Kheldians. You're interested in doing this via numbers, and I'm interested in doing it via showing how one can play a Kheld playstyle-wise, and still be effective. We're just going about it different ways. Numbers are important for min-maxing, and learning how to play the AT is important for developing skill. Numbers will help you very little there.

In fact, I went as far as to test that theory out a couple months ago... I let a friend who plays CoH (35 mo. vet, but doesn't play Khelds) play one of my completely setted out Khelds on my computer... The result was an absolute disaster. Death after death after death. He was so frustrated! Where there is a lack of skill and experience with an AT, no amount of numbers, no matter HOW purpled out a toon is, will help you. In fact, there's proof of this every day in the game--just team with a few PL'd toons from AE... Several of those guys have great sets on their toons already... But, they STILL don't know how to properly play them. Numbers only go so far, my friend. Skill's gotta take 'ya the rest of the way. And, in a lot of cases (especially the cases where you can't afford to buy all your sets/enhancements yet), skill has to work around numbers, until you can get the numbers to where you want them. I'd say skill is the more important of the two, because that lays the foundation for how effective you'll be, regardless of numbers, and then min/maxing will take you the rest of the way to get to the "top."

Now, whether or not you or anyone else is impressed by my Kheld stories really doesn't move me to tears one way or the other. Yay for you if you're impressed. Yay for you if you're not. I'm simply relaying facts about my experiences. If you're bored by it, skim over it or skip to the next post. There's also a handy-dandy little option on these forums to ignore another forum-user. If the fact that someone can have so much fun on a human-form WS or PB annoys you so much, maybe you should try that feature out.

If taking down 8-man mobs solo and surviving isn't proving the strength of a human-only build, then what is? What are you looking for? Sure, you can do the same thing on tri-form.... Guess what? You can do the same thing on dual-form builds as well... If a tri-form did it, would THAT be showing the strength of a tri-form? Of course! But, if a human-form does it, it's not showing it's strength? lol, you're killin' me, man....

Yay for you. As stated before, I'm not swayed to tears one way or the other if you're entertained or not. *golf clap*

Your statements get more and more and more false as you go along... I have never attempted to "sway" anyone to "only play human form." Now, if they WANT to, then I'm there to help with telling them how to do it (as should you, if you have the knowledge on good human form builds--which you don't seem to), and certainly not dissuading them. I've never tried to dissuade anyone from playing a tri-form. In fact, if you wanted an example, here's a post from me IN THIS VERY THREAD:

Isn't that what I was saying? Are we just both repeating ourselves now?


That's pretty solid. Sounds you're like a pretty competent Kheld. Wish there were more like that out there.

Again, as I've stated before (how many times does someone actually have to repeat themselves before someone GETS it), I've never said human form was BETTER... I've said it is EFFECTIVE. IT GETS THE JOB DONE. Really, the only times you'll REALLY tell the difference between the two though, is when you're fighting AVs and if you're on a lvl 54 boss AE farm or something like that, because with my human form and any competent tri-former, a full 8-man mob is down in literally seconds.

Yes, I do have a TON of recharge on my guy. A human form Kheld is a very expensive toon to make, and a choice I don't tell everyone they "should" take. However, if they WANT to go that route, it's THEIR f*****g choice, and I'll give them all the encouragement in the world, and tell them exactly how to get the job done.

I laugh because you entertain me. You act upset that I can do a good job on a human-form Kheld, even though you seem to indicate it's "mathimatically impossible" to do anything well in a human-only build. And yet, I do it. Not sure if that causes something to snap in your head, or if it just irritates you to no end, or what... I won't attempt to say I know--it's just funny that you can't seem to give just a little ground. You continually state that I can't seem to "admit when I'm wrong," even when I've stated multiple times that I don't believe human form is better. I have stated in my personal opinion (which, of course, is entirely subjective) that I think it's more fun to play, but I've never stated that human form is the best, nor have I ever, ever, ever stated that I think tri-form sucks. In fact, my 2nd build on ALL THREE of my Khelds is a tri-form build.

So, the fact that you can't seem to get over the fact that I enjoy playing in human form is, I must admit, quite entertaining. So, I laugh--I "LoL," as it were.

What are you talking about? I AM a crappy Warshade! There is NO EXCUSE why I can't seem to die like a good human-form WS should... No excuse at ALL, and I apologize for that.

What facts are you wanting from my stories of teaming with my friends? The exact numbers for every single hit, death, power used, team/AT makeup on every mission I do with them? 'Cause, that'd be a lot, and you're simply not worth me spending that amount of time researching all that. Sorry.

That's because there isn't any "I win" in any of my statements. It's simply "I had fun, was effective, and you can too." If they want to try it as a tri-former, more power to them. If they want to try it as a human-form, more power to them. Who am I to judge what should be and shouldn't be a fun gaming experience for someone? In fact, who are YOU to judge how someone should play their game?

Human form is not "equal" to tri-form. They are different. Different in numbers, different in playstyle.

What we seem to REALLY be arguing is "are they equal in FUN?" THAT... is entirely subjective. And since it IS entirely subjective, I will most definitely say beyond a shadow of a doubt, in MY subjective opinion, after playing dual-forms, tri-forms, and several different setups of my human form, that my human form is the MOST fun I've ever had on a Kheld.

Period.

"The One"