Another_Fan

Originally Posted by DSorrow

If I were playing in an organized 8 player team set up to play through content very fast, I probably wouldn't even notice that 80% +DMG. Everyone is already playing at maximum efficiency (or close enough to it), meaning any further +DMG will be wasted.

If I were playing in an organized 8 player team set up so that everyone plays whatever they want, I probably wouldn't even notice that 80% +DMG. The only case where I might notice the +DMG was if we had very little AoE (less than two or three), buffs and Debuffs. Something that just won't happen even if you pick 8 characters randomly. Your average 8 man team has enough AoE (you only need, what, three or four AoEs, to mow down minions at +0/+1?) to steamroll through most missions, you should also have at least one or two people with buffs or debuffs so the +80% damage simply won't make a big difference.

If I were playing in a PuG, I everyone would take Leadership even with three new power picks available, so no change here either.

Then there's also the thing that -Res multiplies +DMG. Dropping -Res because of getting +DMG seems kind of strange from a min/max perspective because if the -Res was already better as a multiplier than the added damage from a Scrapper/Blaster/whatever, it would still be the better choice.

Originally Posted by StratoNexus

I thought the +80% was from Assault. How does that work with splitting up?

Glad to see you thought this through.

Originally Posted by StratoNexus

On highly optimized solo builds, +80% damage would be big. Of course, it is not +80% solo, but on teams.

On teams, it is a drop in the bucket. Sorry your teams think an additional +80% damage matters on top of what they already bring. Most of my teams would yawn at that, and that is without kinetics, with a kin, it becomes not just insignificant, but irrelevant.

Originally Posted by StratoNexus

Highly optimized solo build... damage on a team...

Like teams can't already eclipse +80% damage just by having three people firing off AoEs at the same enemies.

Teams are going to run amok! OH NOES!!!!

Originally Posted by UberGuy

(1) I never said we weren't gaining anything. I'm calling BS on the claim that the thing we're gaining in general is more than a few percent improvement in the total attributes (calculated as 1-old/new) of most previously highly optimized builds, with specific exception made for cases where high-but-not-capped defense can add more defense.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

(Someone really good at this debate stuff would do the math themselves and then prove my assertions wrong - if indeed my assertions were wrong.)

To recap the conditions under debate:

Hasten with 98% recharge slotting (your number) and 60% global recharge has a cycle time of 141.9 seconds. During one cycle of Hasten, our 650s recharge power, 3-slotted for recharge (which I called 95% recharge) would earn 445.8 seconds worth of recharge time, meaning it would, on average, take it 650/445.8 = 1.46 Hasten cycles to recharge. That's 206.9s.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

And here we get into classic Another_Fan argument territory. Compared to most regular posters around this forum I am a lightweight at breaking out math to back up a point, and you can't even be bothered to make a quantitative argument with me.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

Post the builds.

Also, I already shot down this notion that +15% recharge is likely to be a transformative addition to a character with far lower global recharge than what you're quoting. +15% recharge on top of 160% is an incremental improvement in the character.

Is your "extra damage when you need it" Assault? How much extra damage is it? What's it do to your DPS, quantitatively?

Originally Posted by UberGuy

You might want to go back and try re-reading what I said.

I said all the low-hanging fruit that would transform a character's performance was already picked on a "maxed out build". If it hasn't been picked already, it's very unlikely (but not impossible) that the character is currently "maxed out".

If something is going to absolutely transform how your character plays, and you're a min/maxer, you damn well find a way to fit it in. Yes, that usually means you make a sacrifice somewhere else - you sacrifice things that are less transformative. A good min/maxer drops the thing that will have the least impact on the character through the loss.

Yes, this change means that some of those things min/maxers couldn't fit in will now come back into the builds, though probably with limited slotting. By the description above, those things will not be transformative or they would not have been dropped in the first place.

I have consistently made exception for people with high but not softcapped defense who can now fit in more defense, because small incremental changes in high defense can become transformative changes in survival.

I am not declaring that builds will not improve. My builds will improve. I am saying that the peak achievable performance will improve, but not by by a whole lot. BillZ's examples are, in fact, concrete evidence of this. Yes, his builds are improving. No, they are not improving by leaps and bounds.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

This is bigtime hyperbole.

On the solo side of things, only a very few characters can solo at those settings today, and only against some things. Primarily, they are softcapped characters. If they want to stomp around the game against arbitrary foe factions, they're basically SR, and really expensive Shield builds, because those are the only ones who can get the Defense Debuff Resistance to stand impassive in the face of things like Cimerorans or Vanguard. Even BillZ doesn't waltz over +4/x8 Arachnos.

On the team side of things, people already walk over content. You don't need these changes to hit the hard defense cap at 50. You just need a team with multiple sources of strong defense buffs, which are regularly available from Cold Domination, Force Fields and Villain epic ATs, with the occasional Vengeance tossed in. Will more people achieve this now? Quite possibly. But if we don't need +5 now for teams, there's no way in hell we're going to need it tomorrow. (My opinion is that we could use +5 now, and these changes are relatively minor to the people who would use that setting today.)

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

Surely a maxed out Scrapper already slotted the +ToHit unique somewhere. And I don't know why you'd take the Leadership pool and slot it that way either, because endurance is still a factor, as is the need to slot it to get actual benefits from the powers. Vengeance may be an exception to an extent, but blah 300 second recharge time and dead teammate.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

I

Edit: To be clear, there is a difference in there being a major increase in maximum potential for a given build, and the change causing people to find major increases in the potential their builds actually realize.

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

I Laughed at this.

Without even trying. Just take the stealth pool. You can now slot 3 luck of the gambler globals for 22.5% more recharge and you get stealth, invisibility and a phase power or that last 7.5 all for free. The fruit doesn't get closer to the ground without being a potato.

Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba

Yet another open pool to help with soft-capping defense.

Why is it that lately when the devs make a decision that I *should* be happy about I find myself instead wondering just what the hell are they thinking?

Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous

Yeah, those Blast Masters suck, there are WAY too many of them in a spawn. Clockwork seem vastly overpowered as well. They chew thru full teams like mad.

And why do the devs have so much hate for Stalkers? Nearly all the Praetorian critters have AoE DoT attacks, which pretty much negates any chance of going into Hide.

Originally Posted by Dispari

It's not. There's a marker on the map for the difficulty NPC, but there isn't one there. The NPC is missing, but the map clearly shows they intended to place one.

Originally Posted by Lothic

Whatever the "newest best type of toon" is right now you can be sure the Devs -will- nerf it sooner or later. Even talking about things like this in the forums helps the Devs become aware of what needs to be taken care of.

It always amazes me that people who love to exploit FotM builds never seem to understand why the Devs' reaction to those builds is pretty much inevitable. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Dispari

I feel it's worth noting that there are a number of factors that lend to you having an easy time with that Controller you mentioned, such as,

1) You are a veteran player. You've been around for at least three years. You no doubt know the ins and outs and know how to do things like pick good powers, form meaningful attack chains, leverage inspirations, and no doubt pull. Which leads me to,

2) While it's entirely possible you didn't, it's also fairly likely that you played using vet reward powers, adding to your arsenal and allowing you to do more damage more often than a new player. This is ESPECIALLY an advantage if you play an AT that has low damage or few attacks to begin with, because,

3) AT damage modifiers aren't in full swing until past 20, so at the low levels (especially the exceptionally low levels), everyone is doing the same damage. That means while at 50 your Controller may be doing 55% damage while a Blaster is doing 112.5%, at level 1 you're both doing 100%. Add to that the fact that your Controller also mezzes with each attack, AND gets containment so does 200% damage, means your Controller is actually doing pretty darn well below 20.

As all ATs run around doing the same damage below 20, the advantages for each AT and soloing are almost the opposite of what they usually are. For instance, the ATs that probably have the EASIEST time soloing low levels would be Controllers, Dominators, Brutes (Fury allows them to run around doing 250%+ damage), and some forms of Defenders. The ATs that probably have the HARDEST time soloing would be the ones that only have damage going for them to begin with and have nothing to back it up when they're doing the same damage as everyone else; ATs like Blasters and Stalkers likely suffer the most. And because of this,

4) You picked an awesome AT for soloing low level content. As a Controller, out of the box, you have the ability to reduce 33% to 100% of all incoming damage just by taking your hold at level 1. Most spawns set for one have 2-3 units, of which you can always just hold one and immediately reduce 33% to 50% incoming damage. At levels where nobody else, even Tankers, are going to have even basic shields, and HP levels are all very close, you're reducing damage far more than everyone else is. Add to this the fact that you also debuff and you're dropping incoming damage way more than anybody else. But it's not just the AT,

5) You picked an awesome primary set for soloing. Through beta we mostly complained about Elec being poor for teaming situations. But one thing it is really good at (and may be the reason the devs didn't want to change it) is soloing. You have a very potent pulsing AoE sleep which is available to you extremely early, which as I mentioned above can equate to pretty much 100% mitigation for every spawn. Add to this your ability to drain endurance while enemies are asleep and no enemies will ever really have to attack you. You can always get the drop with hold, knockdown, sleep, and end drain, and never fight anything. Most of this even occurs by level 8.

If you really want the full Praetorian experience, try soloing a Blaster or Stalker without using any vet powers through Praetoria. You'll find that the enemies actually do a ton of damage (Resistance, Clockwork, Seers), and are capable of keeping you mezzed and knocked down when you don't want them to. And that when you can't simply hold the numerous bosses (even scaled to lieutenants) that use Super Strength powers, they can kill you in just a couple attacks.

Your argument will warrant some credibility when you have taken the time to level more than just a Controller through Praetoria. I won't argue that Controllers, especially Elec ones, will have a fairly easy time breezing through the missions. I personally soloed over half the ATs with various different powersets and builds, and found many of the gangs significantly difficult. You should try it. So please post back when you do and tell us how YOU did. Thanks.

Originally Posted by StratoNexus

Woe is KM!

Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade

I thought any schmoe could still convert regular merits to A-Merits without doing morality arcs?

Originally Posted by Werner

Well, yes, obviously it's a mere distraction to talk about the value of using a particular inspiration if I don't have a chart of the opportunity costs for ALL inspirations. I have no such chart, so I'm sorry to have wasted your time.