Wolfram

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

a vigilante acting outside the law with the cops well pleased to have someone who can deal with super powered villains


[/ QUOTE ]

Why would the cops suffer an illegal vigilante in a city stuffed FULL of registered superheroes?

[/ QUOTE ]


Every hero helps?

[/ QUOTE ]
But an unregistered hero raises the question: why not? Of course the character has their reason and on the one hand it may be (mostly) innocuous. But if it's because they were too mentally unstable, too dangerous to others, or unwilling to work within even the vague legal limits of a registered hero (Punisher-type stuff) then the PPD couldn't justify letting them run around unsupervised. And if it's because they happen to have a sideline in taking stuff from crime scenes that goes beyond the apparent "right of salvage" heroes have... well, that's not vigilantism, that's theft.

[ QUOTE ]
And give how useless the PPD are I'd say anyone who pulls their [censored] out of the fire while a bunch of Arachnos take pot shots at them would get a clean slide at least from Officer Dibbs and Jenkins whose [censored] were just saved.

[/ QUOTE ]
Those of us who actually play PPD officers might take offense at that...

The sun was setting over the Liberty Islands, casting the long shadow of the ancient volcano and the ornate Cathedral of Flame over the landscape, including one small, deserted rural graveyard.

Something stirred in the air above the cemetary - a sparking of light, a faint luminous haze that gradually coalesced into a floating sphere of glowing white energy. Ghostly lightning crackled thinly in the air, casting oddly-coloured shadows from the weathered gravestones.

The sphere of energy shifted, and reformed itself into humanoid shape. Light flared, and where the shape had been, there stood a young Peruvian woman, dressed in a loose outfit of white and blue robes. Her ethereal form steadily gained substance as the energy around her was drawn inward.

The disturbed atmosphere subsided. The glow faded. The Starlit Spirit walked the earth again.

She looked around. The day's last light was slowly fading, but she did not need light by which to see the things she was looking for: disturbances, wounds in the balance of the spiritual plane. From the tormented outcries that had drawn her dreaming to this place, wherever it was, she had thought to see such disturbances everywhere, yet all seemed... muted. Perhaps some magic or other was masking the defilements being carried out here?

Her gaze settled on the towering form of the volcano to the west. That, at least, was a place strong with the native spirits of the land. Perhaps they would provide some answers.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think we're objecting to thier existance, I think it's the slightly vindictive argument that people can't POSSIBLY join Vanguard without having them assigned is my objection. Or that people are somehow unable to work out how powerful someone is unless FC has tagged a number onto them!

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I quite agree that it should be possible to do almost anything, as long as you can fudge a good enough excuse. What I, personally, am against is the idea that Vanguard will just let anyone who says they want to fight the Rikti into the Warzone and their organisation. If you want to say you snuck into the Warzone and talked the Vanguard into letting you join, that's fine by me. It just has to be plausible.

[ QUOTE ]
Also it just doesn't make sense Vanguard would want you to go get a Security Rating rather than just trial you, especially when they're assigned by Freedom Corp. Which Vanguard don't particularly get along with, what with them occupying the same warzone in a rather bitter rivalry.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero registration is carried out by Freedom Corps? I was under the impression it was more of a government thing. I'm quite open to correction, though.

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems that, as I said, people are leaping all over the "security level = IC" part of the world but ignoring other aspects of it.

I can see where the argument is coming from so don't get me wrong there, but it's a little jarring to see this kind of inconsistency crop up. :/

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's my way of looking at it: what's wrong with security levels? The other things that have been mentioned get fudged because they don't make sense.

Paragon's citizens can't be bulletproof pieces of scenery. Shops that people can't go into, can't exist. The majority of badges can't be imagined simply popping into existence when some arbitary condition is met. There can be such a business as Wentworth's Consignments, but I sincerely doubt it would trade in plutonium. But security levels work just fine. Why reject them, when we don't reject, for example, the existence of Freedom Corps, or the monorail, or Pocket D?

Ok - inventions? Does your character really go down to the auction house, spend some of her fame on a recipe and two or three rare magical artefacts, weld them together with more fame, and attach it to one application of her powers?

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how you attempt to fudge it; there comes a point where you CANNOT ignore the game mechanics as they WILL stop you doing some things. The only way to get through such limitations is by following the rules of the game world we are in. Getting in to the War Zone requires a hero or villain to have a security/threat level of 35, and the ONLY IC way to get that is to be a registered hero/destined one. You might not like that, but those are the rules of the game.

Do you like playing Backgammon on everyone else's Monopoly board?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone here is talking about playing by different rules. Everyone accepts that there are IC limitations associated with not being a registered hero/villain. There's just some dispute over what those limitations are. I happen to agree with you that Vanguard goes by security level, not whether someone looks/can prove that they're capable, but it's hardly breaking any rules merely to suggest otherwise.

I would still maintain that the city/state/federal government must have some say in who gets to enter or leave the Warzone from Paragon City. It's a border of the territory of the United States - they're allowed to police it.

Picture the scene. A supervillain has just had a heist in Founder's Falls go badly wrong. The heroes have seized his getaway vehicle. There's no escape. So he just strolls down to the local Vanguard office and heads into the Warzone. He's one teleport away from the Rogue Isles. The Paragon authorities wouldn't allow that, and they're entirely within their rights to stop it.

Besides, Vanguard are going to want to know that the people they're letting in and out can be guaranteed not to collaborate with the enemy. It's not just about how much Rikti [censored] they can kick; if they can't be trusted, they won't be trusted.

You can still sneak into the Warzone, in theory, just like the Malta Group do. But you'll have to answer a lot of questions before you're able to join or work with Vanguard.

Getting into most hazard zones does indeed seem to be possible without authorisation. You just have to do it illegally, same as the various villains you go in there to fight. Most of the time, I can see it being possible to get away with this (but you wouldn't, say, be able to work with Lt. Wincott in the Hollows). Siren's Call would be harder. Any villain who sneaks in there, whether from Paragon or the Rogue Isles, immediately becomes a target for Longbow and the heroes. A hero who's found sneaking in illegally would have to be assumed to be one of the bad guys.

Vanguard (in my view) wouldn't take in anyone who's not registered and cleared for the warzone - I can see the government as much as Vanguard themselves insisting on that rule. You don't want random citizens getting in or out of a Rikti-heavy area, do you? Especially given that the Rikti can disguise themselves as humans.

I suppose what it comes down to is that an unregistered hero can get by just fine at the low levels. I've done this myself in the past, though the character in question had several advantages, including some forged documentation and a cloaking device. After that, your options are going to be limited. And if you get found out, there may of course be legal consequences, depending on who learns your secret.

[ QUOTE ]
He's sizing people up and thinking to himself 'Can that guy punch Rikti really hard or not?'

And if thinks you can he calls you over.

If he doesn't you can't come in.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what the guy says, though - he asks for identification. Bear in mind that IC, security level and power/ability level aren't the same. Even OOC, not all level 35 characters are equal in power, but the cutoff point remains. And not all of the world's most powerful heroes actually look like it. If you were a Vanguard soldier trying to gauge how well people can handle themselves from their appearance, you wouldn't let Professor Xavier into the warzone, would you?

Good question. I don't think we have any official information on whether there are such things as hero licenses in other countries - or even other states or cities in the US. However they work, I imagine that it would be possible for a licensed foreign hero to get a permit of some sort to operate in Paragon - again, just going on the assumption that being a hero works roughly like being a police officer, you will need special dispensation to work outside your normal jurisdiction.

Council holding area, Perez Park - Then

The Council's containment cells weren't built for comfort. Hank sat on the edge of a bed that was no more than a reinforced metal frame, pondering what idiotic course of action had led him to this. Of course the Council couldn't be trusted - he'd known that the day he signed up. Maybe I was hoping they didn't know?

His head pounded. Even the slightest movement was difficult. There was no fatigue, no real pain, no shortness of breath - just the slow, laborious effort. He'd been weak when he woke up here for the first time; hours, or days, or weeks ago, he couldn't tell. Now he felt as though every ounce of strength in his body had been sucked away, leaving only a dark, cold void at his very core...

...and where his heartbeat should have been, there was a deep, slow, mechanical pulse, as if some dark engine within his chest was struggling to keep ticking over...

The small window on his reinforced cell door slid open, and the familiar one-eyed visage of Archon Wilson came into view. The grizzled Archon made a brief visual sweep of the cell before nodding to someone to his left, and stepping aside to allow Dr. LeVine to take his place.

"And how are you feeling, Henry?" the doctor inquired, looking him up and down through the bars.

"What..." Hank took a deep breath, with effort. "What did you... do to me?"

"You were genetically compatible for a procedure that we are very excited about." LeVine smiled. "We upgraded you."

Hank stared at him. "This is supposed... supposed to be an improvement?"

"Well, of course, it won't feel like it just at the moment." LeVine shrugged. "You see... well, I take it you are familiar with Dr. Vahzilok's work in enhancing the human body?"

"You're talking about... those sorry-[censored] zombies?"

"Oh, no." LeVine chuckled at some private joke. "No, poor Demetrios' obsession with curing death has rather taken over, but the things he's achieved in trying... I was so close to making a truly spectacular new form of posthuman, far superior to the present design of Eidolon. Powerful creatures, you understand, but with such high maintenance needs. I calculated that they needed a better sort of power source, but I really couldn't get what I needed where I was. And then I came to an agreement with the Council..."

"Agreement. Yeah," Hank muttered through clenched teeth. "And you used me as a [censored] guinea pig."

"Medicine must advance, Henry." LeVine shrugged. "I knew you wouldn't thank me, but your new heart is only a prototype. I need you intact for further study, but once I iron out the flaws, the Council will have a new generation of super-soldiers. The future of humanity, Henry. If you cooperate, you may even live to see it dawn..."

Something dawned inside Hank's mind as the doctor spoke. An awareness of something that wasn't simple weakness and pain - a hollowness, a hunger -

LeVine cut off in mid-sentence as Hank toppled from the bed onto the hard concrete floor. "Get this door open!" he shouted. "Can't afford to let him die!"

The door swung open, and Archon Wilson pushed his way forward, grabbing Hank and hauling him upright. This gave Hank the height and leverage he needed to head-butt the giant Archon.

The blow landed with unexpected strength. Wilson staggered back, taken by surprise; Hank took the opportunity to grab the knife from the Archon's belt and swiped at his face, cutting above his good eye. Wilson roared, and lurched forward blindly, but Hank was already outside the cell, slamming the door shut behind him.

Hank advanced on the stunned LeVine, bloodied knife in hand. The hunger was stronger than ever - he was filled with a feverish strength, a desperate anticipation. "Now, Doc. You were sayin'...?"

The hunger reached out from within him, with fingers of empty darkness, and seized the terrified doctor.

Some guy teleported a hero into the villain hospital so he could freely kill in a supposedly safe zone, and you're wondering if what you were doing is an exploit?

Edit: Wait, no, that's not what you were wondering at all. Um. Nevermind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the questions that has to be answered is why heroes aren't just required to either join the PPD or stay at home.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we had to do the above then, arguably, there would be no City of Heroes or Villains.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite right. The city very obviously needs its heroes - just think how much crime we stop on a daily basis. Take the heroes away, and Paragon would be reduced to ruins in weeks. The PPD can't be everywhere at once, and heroes have several advantages for the city: they have full autonomy, and they don't need paying. But if they're not licensed and accountable, and can freely travel around the city killing or arresting as the mood takes them, the situation gets worse, not better. The right to actively enforce the law is an enormous trust to place in a person, and I imagine the authorities think very carefully about license applications.

[ QUOTE ]
By personal choice Statesman may decide to avoid using his full strength and power against the Hellion, but I think the law will make provision for him to do so. If it does, then we have a coherent set of rules, which makes it easier for us as RPers to know where the line is drawn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but that's... silly. If characters can defend their actions because of possible unknown factors - "That random civilian who got caught in the crossfire might have been one of the criminals!" - there are no limits. Yes, of course Statesman was entitled to stop the Hellion using reasonable force, but there's no way he could claim he believed his life to be threatened unless he had prior knowledge of whatever secret weapon this was.

[ QUOTE ]
So why are there so many Fire blasters? AR blasters? Katana scrappers? Dual-blade scrappers? Broadswoard scrappers? Superstrength tanks?

[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably because they have some non-lethal measures at their disposal? I've encountered plenty of roleplayed examples of those powersets who use magic fire, rubber bullets, secret martial arts techniques, whatever, to let them make arrests safely. We fudge it - because we have to, or else those powersets would have to be somehow off-limits, and that's unacceptable.

Well, the hero license is certainly necessary. Pretty much all the United States have a legal basis for a citizen's arrest, but that's only if a citizen witnesses a crime in progress or is specifically asked by a police officer to intervene - you can't go looking for crimes to stop without a license, or you're a vigilante, which is against the law.

There's also the thing of Security Level. IC, obviously, our characters' powers don't scale in such a linear way, but you do still need a certain level of security clearance to go into hazard zones, for example.

One of the questions that has to be answered is why heroes aren't just required to either join the PPD or stay at home. We gather from the fact that hero licenses exist that the duties of a hero and the duties of a police officer aren't quite the same. Assuming that we are deputised citizens, we're answerable to the PPD in everything we do - we can claim to be above the law, but the entire system will fall apart if we start acting like it.

Edit:
[ QUOTE ]
If that force being put to use by the criminal is directed against a normal human being.

Statesman punching the head off a Hellion point a gun at him is not appropriate use of deadly force at all.

In fact, Statesman punching the head of a Hellion pointing a gun at a civilian isn't appropriate use of deadly force either. At his security level and considering his registered abilities there's a lot of assumption you could make that Statesman should certainly be able to disarm and subude a Hellion without use of any deadly force at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fully agreed. We are, after all, superheroes - that means that we have resources at our disposal (whether natural, mutant, scientific, technological, magical, anything) which make us more capable than "normal" citizens. If we volunteer to use those resources for the greater good, then the city is entitled to ask that we use them responsibly.

[ QUOTE ]
might the precedents set not perhaps state that deadly force as it applies to a normal human makes the use of deadly force appropriate?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow. You're saying that if a Hellion were stupid enough to pull a gun on Statesman, he'd be fully justified in killing the guy out of hand, because although a normal bullet poses no threat at all to a being that can shrug off a nuclear explosion, it would have posed a deadly threat to a normal human? That would be... very strange.

As for characters without non-lethal means, I suppose that raises the question of just how the city decides who to give a hero license to. If your only way of "arresting" suspects is with lethal force, there's a good argument for saying you wouldn't get a license.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but that's not a problem is it? We don't kill in the game, we arrest.

[/ QUOTE ]
Naturally - just that there have been IC events in the past when people have claimed to have killed suspects without there being any very good reason to.

[ QUOTE ]
I've always had a minor problem with the "salaried" bit... How can it possibily be economically viable for an individual to decide to use thier powers and become a hero, if there isn't at least a living wage involved in it.

[/ QUOTE ]
It does rather seem like there'd have to be some benefits when you think about the demands in time and money that being a hero makes. Most heroes do seem to have a full-time job as well as their hero commitments, but then I suppose if being a hero was easy, it wouldn't really be heroic.

[ QUOTE ]
1. We are authorised
2. We can't hurt NPC's
3. They're always up to something like that.
4. All covered too!

So... We ARE legally empowered to use deadly force when we have to.

[/ QUOTE ]
But only when necessary to prevent one of those things under 4. If you could have brought the criminal down without killing them (and they're not imminently threatening to kill you or someone else), deadly force was not justified. I can see the city being pretty strict with their super-powered heroes on this one; if you're bulletproof, you can hardly use the defense that you were about to be shot. Punisher-type stuff - killing regardless of circumstances - is still illegal for a law enforcer.

As if. Heroes report misdeeds to the authorities. Villains blackmail.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, about the 'alternate dimensions' versions. Why would they be any more justified then the thief versions?
Unless they pop back and forth, they're not part of Arachnos, so would be abducted before long to investigate... wouldn't they?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if you're part of an alternate-universe version of Arachnos, it might be the two Lords Recluse have a non-aggression pact that allows you to run around unmolested. Unless you mean people who've stolen the tech from another dimension, in which case, you're right; Arachnos probably wouldn't appreciate the difference until after they've gone to work on your armour with a can opener.

[ QUOTE ]
No one has a right to tell anyone they shouldn't ignore someone for what ever reason.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who tried to suggest that we can't ignore whoever we want? All Syracuse is saying (if I've understood properly) is that it's a bad idea to create a character who's under a standing death sentence from the brutal police state in which he's forced to live. If the IC consequences are carried out to their natural conclusion, you're gonna die.

[ QUOTE ]
Why roll a Soldier of Arachnos if you're not...y'know...going to be a Soldier of Arachnos in some form?



The uniform is probably the most distinct thing players can wear at the moment, after all. Especially once you factor in the Arachnos mace, the Crab limbs, etc. I don't see how anyone can viably handwave all that if they're not related to Recluse and company.

[/ QUOTE ]
The same reason everything gets fudged: because it's the best/only way to represent a concept. I'll grant that I find it harder to find a use like this for the SoA ATs than the Kheldian ones, but for instance: maybe that "Crab Spider" is an alien and the spider arms are part of him. Maybe that "Fortunata" is just a psychic martial artist.

These situations are one of the reasons RP fudge exists. The game rules limit what we can do, so we bend the rules. Whether any given fudging is acceptable is basically down to how well it's explained.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say "don't do it" (guilty as I am of having a PB with an unnecessarily weird twist), but I would say "be very careful." An Arachnos trooper who's not really part of Arachnos is going to have some major disadvantages.

First, there are some powers that just won't make sense. Yes, you can kill a Wolf Spider and steal his equipment - armour, assault rifle, whatever grenades he had on him. The training/leadership/skills powers can all be covered by some past military training. But how would you explain powers that rely on direct Arachnos support, like Call Reinforcements or the Omega Manouevre?

The other thing is, of course, IC repercussions. As has been mentioned, if you get found out, the penalty is death. If you're careful, it's not a problem, but if you go around bragging about how you stole your Arachnos gear, sooner or later someone's going to report you to the Arbiters, and your lone Arachnos soldier is going to be in a lot of trouble.

Everyone likes to put a personal spin on their character. Kheldians and SoAs seem initially to be quite restrictive and so people bend the rules to be individual. You can't really go telling people that they can't do that, but at the same time there are limits to how far these things will stretch, in my opinion.

WarpLocke
Secure Infirmary, the Zig - Now

"...moving him out of here, Doctor. He's got an appointment."

Hank Delacroix opened his eyes. He wasn't sure how long he'd slept, but the pain in his chest had more or less faded, and someone had turned the lights down to a bearable level. He sat up, looking around to see who had spoken.

The doctor on duty was talking to one of a trio of guards, carrying a selection of chains and other restraints. "If those are your orders, I'll release him, but I'll be filing a protest. I don't know what kind of powers he has keeping him going, but nobody who's been shot that many times should be leaving this place so soon."

The guard shrugged. "Not my problem now and it won't be then."

"I wouldn't worry, Doc." Hank swung his legs over the side of the bed. "I was gettin' tired of the décor in here anyway."

The guards closed in, securing the power-dampening manacles around his wrists before unfastening him from the wall. He stood, a little shakily, while they chained his ankles and ushered him toward the door.

"One second." The doctor opened one of the supply cabinets and took out a pair of dark glasses, which he handed to the lead guard. "He'll need these. The city won't appreciate it if he goes blind before his trial."

Hank blinked, relieved, as the shades blocked the glare from his eyes. Today was starting to look like it might be a good day. "Much obliged, doc. Where did you fellas say I was going again?"

"Interview room. Your lawyer's waiting for you."

"Huh." Hank followed in small, ungainly steps as the guards led him out of the room. Since when do I have a lawyer?

* * *

The appearance of the man waiting in the interview room answered no questions. He was tall, pale and almost skeletally thin, giving his completely bald head a faintly skull-like appearance. Green-grey eyes paler than any Hank had ever seen, aside from his own, watched unblinkingly as the guards led him to his chair. "Ten minutes, Delacroix," the lead guard muttered as he and his colleagues made their exit, without so much as a backward glance.

Hank sat in silence, watching his visitor with some bemusement. "So just where the hell did you come from?" he asked, finally.

"I am Mr Weaver, representing the firm of - excuse me a moment." The lawyer reached into his jacket pocket and retrieved a small black box with a button on the side, which he pressed as he placed it on the table. "We really must ensure that this conversation is held in the strictest confidence. To finish answering your question, as of the hour of your arrest, I am your attorney."

"That so?" Hank shrugged. "Well now, ain't that convenient?"

"Mr Mason expected that you might think so." The lawyer's face showed no more expression than his clipped, accentless speech. "Mr Mason has a vested interest in ensuring that you are well advised for what is to come."

Hank nodded. "And I suppose 'Mr Mason' thinks maybe he's gonna get something in return?"

"In a sense, he does. And Mr Mason is very seldom wrong about these things."

"Well, I don't need any lawyers with strings attached, thanks very much." Hank sat back in his chair. "I'll take my chances."

Weaver nodded. "Mr Mason also expected you would be reluctant." He took a crisp white paper envelope from his briefcase and slid it across the desk. "He prepared an appropriate incentive."

Hank opened the envelope, carefully removing the file it contained and reading over it. "Well, now. Mr Mason is just full of good ideas, ain't he?"

Weaver nodded. "As you can see, Mr Mason is capable of being quite generous. By way of earnest-payment, he will effect your departure from this institution in the near future. There are only two things you need do to facilitate this plan."

Hank handed the file back. "I'm all ears."

"First, you will plead guilty on all charges. The trial is an unnecessary complication and must not be allowed to obstruct our efforts or draw undue attention. Second, you will contrive a means of reaching the special containment area in D Block to meet the other members of your cadre. Two small gestures of trust."

Hank raised an eyebrow. "That's a lotta trust to ask. They're never gonna make that murder charge stick - they don't even know how I killed the guy."

"Perhaps, perhaps not. The requirement stands. I guarantee that you will not have to wait long for your trust to be repaid." Weaver reached into his briefcase and took out a second file. "And in case you are in need of further persuasion - or considering leaving Mr Mason's employ the moment you are free - " He handed over the file in silence.

Hank read it. Then he took off his shades and read it again. He looked up at Weaver, eyes narrowed. "You do know that I could burn your heart out of your chest from where I'm sitting?" he hissed.

"I am well aware of it. If, of course, you were prepared to die in the process." Weaver showed no fear, no emotion at all. "We know quite well how your... powers work. Better than you do. Suffice to say that killing me would have quite the opposite effect to what you wish. I am here to proffer the carrot, Mr Delacroix. Mr Mason has other employees to wield the stick."

Hank tossed the file back to him. "Fine. You got yourself a deal."

Likewise. It's impossible to pick any one thing. I guess the days of using existing missions to approximate our RP plots are coming to an end.