_Tundra_

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It does seem a bit endurance paranoid. I assume that is because with Icicles you are at half base end recovery. I would put 3 end reds in it and maybe cut the acc to 1 and the damage down to 2. With 2 damage it will still out damage any of your secondary powers with it on DPS and DPE. Another option is to slot the 2 AoEs with 2 end reducers rather than 1 end and one red, you have hasten after all.

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I'd personally just get rid of icicles completely...After Spad's comments (and I quote..) 'Really not the best choice of power for an already end-heavy powerset.' I wonder if Spad has a brother who's using his account?

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I'm guessing that by 'in preparation for the I7 freespec' he means he's planning on using it following this one

(well, not really, but he did ask for abuse )

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hmmm... so if i pick 7 from elec (which i will), Im looking at dropping charged brawl and lightning clap i suppose... although i may pick up the 'clap at epics... geddit?

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I'd suggest trying them out on Test rather than just going by the numbers, though. Thunder Strike looks great on paper, but it's so much slower than all your other attacks that it will tend to really mess up an attack chain. Havoc Punch, Charged Brawl and Shocking Grasp are all great, and personally I'd take Thunder Clap over TS any day because of its fast activation. NB. TS is not a bad power by any means, so you won't regret it if you take it - but IMO it's one of the more skippable powers in the set.

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For getting into the middle of groups - I hate to be as conventional as this, but Super Speed is hard to beat. Teleport has a nasty little pause where you can't do anything much but can be attacked - SS has stealth. That makes it all but indispensible for the close range blaster IMHO.


[/ QUOTE ]Incorrect, you can attack, you just can't move for a while.

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Still a disadvantage where SS gives stealth and mobility

Elec/Fire is simply awesome when it comes to close range AoE damage. Pretty much nothing gets up after a Ball Lightning, Short Circuit, Combustion, FSC chain. Hot Feet looked good to me, but I haven't got my Elec/Fire that high yet - he's on hold pending improvements to End drain.

Even without that for control, though, he's pretty staggering when duoing with an Ice Tank. If you do start levelling a toon like this let me know - I think it would make a really excellent teammate for a Sonic defender too - all that PBAoE damage combined with Disruption Field would have to be sweet.

If you're going all PBAoE I'd be sorely tempted to go for the Force Epic - the resistances and the chance of soaking up an alpha strike from within your PFF before letting rip with the AoEs would be too much for me to pass up. I can see the appeal of Arctic, though, and Snow Storm is great.

For getting into the middle of groups - I hate to be as conventional as this, but Super Speed is hard to beat. Teleport has a nasty little pause where you can't do anything much but can be attacked - SS has stealth. That makes it all but indispensible for the close range blaster IMHO.

So yes, definately viable - and tempting me to bring mine back out to play as well...

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So the overall effectiveness would increase against an even con minion?

[/ QUOTE ]Propably not, I have no hard numbers though, cant be bothered to dig out the formulas and check myself, I'm sure someone will though

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Not an easy thing to do - does anyone actually have a reliable list of ToHit modifiers for ranks and levels? As noted in discussions of base debuff values recently, practically all player derived debuff values were incorrect and so my confidence in player derived rank and level modifiers is a little shaky...

We can calculate with some confidence that post-I7, with this patch in place, a debuffed even level minion will hit approx. 50% more often (their overall chance to hit changing from 14% to 21%) when debuffed by Darkest Night. My back of an envelope calculations using the ToHit table from HeroBuilder suggests that following I7 the debuffs will be very slightly weaker than they are now against even level Lts, and a little stronger than they are now against even level bosses.

Things will improve further as the level of enemies increases, but it gets even more difficult to calculate by how much as things get a little complicated. The level bonus of the enemies will now have a lower effect. However, I'm pretty sure (almost certain, in fact) that ToHit debuffs, like most debuffs decrease in magnitude as they are applied to higher level enemies (by approx. 10% per. level, I think). That's the case now as well, of course, so the I7 change will still lead to an improvement - but since I don't know exactly how this is applied it's difficult to work out by how much. A back of an envelope calculation again using the TH tables from Hero builder suggests a situation post I7 where debuffing minions will start out severely weakened as described above (approx. 50% less effective) to being almost exactly as effective against +5 minions (my calculations suggest a TH of 51% now and 54% post-I7 - essentially equal given the many potential errors involved). Against bosses things are better, starting out slightly better at even level than they are now, and rising to a big difference at +5 (approx. TH of 76% now, approx. 66% post I7).

Naturally things are even better against AVs.

So essentially, post I7 ToHit debuffs will be weaker against minions and better against bosses. They will be slightly weaker against Lt's of your own level or lower and slightly better at higher levels. In PvP they will simply be weaker.

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02 : Stone Skin damres(02) damres(9) damres(11)


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Well how does this work you dont get slots at lvl 2?? What does the 2 stand for?

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You'll notice that it's the same level as the power was picked at. That's the default empty slot that arrives with each power.

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The really nice thing about FoN is that it only really needs recharges; so you can get it at 49 with no real losses; leaving lots of lovely slots to play with earlier


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I may be missing something here, but why on Earth would you feel that it's not worth slotting for Damage Resistance? A base +RES of 35% to almost everything is great, but it's nowhere near the cap so still well worth slotting.

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Realistically you're still a Blaster though, so 3 extra slots of Acc/Dam/Recharge could be better used elsewhere unless you're having to tank an AV; and then you better put it down in 2 minutes. PvP might be worth the extra RES, but I'm not yet convinced on PvE. What are your Team mates doing?

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Having only ever put it in by respeccing it into a lvl50 I never had the slightest trouble finding slots for it. It may vary for other powersets, but Elec has relatively few attacks and I haven't taken all of them. After six-slotting those I have got, there's still plenty to go around.

Three slots of RES puts you at the 75% cap for S/L (combined with TI) and approx. 55% to everything else except Psi. It means I can comfortably go toe-to-toe with Zeus-class titans despite not being able to drain their End, which I consider A Good Thing.

As far as team-mates go, unless they have Sonics what the aren't doing is adding to my Resistance, so being able to do so myself Another Good Thing. Of course, any defences they do provide help me to be even more of a close-quarters force of destruction, which is very welcome indeed.

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The really nice thing about FoN is that it only really needs recharges; so you can get it at 49 with no real losses; leaving lots of lovely slots to play with earlier


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I may be missing something here, but why on Earth would you feel that it's not worth slotting for Damage Resistance? A base +RES of 35% to almost everything is great, but it's nowhere near the cap so still well worth slotting.

Hope hitting 50 went as planned - sorry I wasn't around to join you for it. Should be back in the UK tomorrow night, so hopefully catch up with you soon.

May not be able to make this weekend after all, unfortunately. I've been called over to France for work and am not sure when I'll be back - maybe Sunday night, maybe Monday or possibly later in the week than that. You're probably better off giving someone else the spot and assuming I won't be there, I'm afraid.

Sorry about that.

Well, the number of Energy/Neg. Energy attacks with no S/L component happening at lvl18 is what? Ranged attacks from the nearly out-levelled Clockwork? As long as you drag them in to melee range you could easily put off GA for the sake of another attack, I'd have thought. The number of E/NE attacks with no S/L component remains very low throughout the game, but obviously you're going to want GA at some point for the things which just refuse to close to melee.

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Yep, I have actually tried Lightning Clap. I tried several different builds on test before ending up with the one I have now. The knockback annoyed me a bit but it still seemed like a useful power and it was touch and go between that and Stealth. I like that the animation is reasonably short.

Anyway, I'm on Union so I might take you up your offer. Is your global handle Tundra?

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Yes, you'll find me @Tundra. I won't be online tonight, but should be tomorrow evening.

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Hear what you're saying, but is it just me or do high level blasters tend to be respeccing in defence and stuff, trying to avoid aggro from no more than 2 mobs?

Just not fun for me, regardless of the status effects raining down at the high end.

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At least in my case, no. I respecced into Force Mastery for two reasons - one was that it was my original character concept anyway that the suit of powered armour in question should have force fields. The other, from a gameplay POV, was that added resistances allow me to survive the attention of multiple enemies and take them on, not avoid them. It's just that these days I find TB, SC, Lightning Field, Ball Lightning all used for damage to be a far more effective way of taking out those multiple enemies than draining their End.

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I'm exactly 38, having scraped about 3 levels since I started playing her again. I think a lot of my trouble comes from the fact that I feel so unfamiliar playing her after having so long a break and altering the build a lot when I respecced. She also feels a lot more vulnerable compared to my scrapper (obviously) but also peacebringer and even dominator, so it's probably the change that unsettles me. So anyway, it's a while until epics. I was thinking of going with Electric Mastery, but looking at it Force Mastery seems to offer more tools for survivability. Force of Nature doesn't really have mez protection though, does it? I think the description in my planner is incorrect. If it isn't, I'm so there.

I was thinking, would Personal Force Field allow me to herd mobs for AoEs? Could be a nice strategy once endurance drain works again. My only experience about it is the ha-ha moment when goofing off in Arena with a mate: he turned PFF on and I couldn't hit him until I got so annoyed that I hit Aim+BuildUp+Thunderous Blast and 1-shot killed him. He was all "what was that" but I don't know if I got lucky

Edit: forgot to say, I don't have Lightning Field or Lightning Clap. I have one respec left if really needed but would rather try to work with what I have for now. It works in teams and I can solo too, it's just a bit tricky.

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Since you don't have Stamina, don't even think about Lightning Field - it's End cost is huge. I do find it useful, though. I'd try Lightning Clap out on Test before taking it - i the KB it causes isn't to everyone's tastes.

I find 2 Holds to be enough and I like the extra toughness from Force mastery - PFF lets me soak up the alpha from a spawn and then drop it and defeat them at leisure. Also, Force of Nature stacked with Temporary Invulnerability will make you very tough for a short while against S/L type damage and respectably tough against anything else. Nice for those boss-soloing moments. Repel is pointless - slower to activate than Lightning Clap, way more End expensive and pretty much does the same job (except that LC also applies a disorient).

If you're on Union I could show you DVM's build and soloing tactics, if you like.

<edit> btw. Force of Nature doesn't give any Mez protection. When Epics were first announced Blasters were going to be given Unstoppable in this pool. It was tweaked downwards to FoN, which is pretty much Unstoppable without the Mez. protection and lower base Res but still a really excellent power. </edit>

@Frazzle
It's not that End drain is impossible - just useless. As pointed out above I could certainly soak up an alpha strike in PFF, drop it and hit Short Circuit + Power Sink and then clean house. But it's a lot riskier and less effective than just taking out the 1-2 most dangerous enemies with Holds and just laying down AoE damage on the whole lot. IMO End drain really shouldn't be a concern in any attack chain involving Thunderous Blast - almost nothing should be left standing after TB + Ball Lightning anyway, and your single target holds/attacks are quite capable of taking care of anything that is. ie. Although End draining in PvE is still possible, it's no longer any safer than simply dealing damage and considerably less effective.

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mobs around get slowed = slower attack = less incomming damage = longer surival.

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Those mobs get a -Damage debuff too, so each of those slowed down attacks hurts less. It also grabs a lot of aggro. It's very possibly the best damage mitigation power in the set and certainly far too good to miss.

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I'm elec/elec and have lots of melee attacks, snipe, thunderous blast and two holds, as well as CJ and acrobatics. I actually love my secondary and think the primary is weaker. I used to rely on endurance drain for some protection, but that's useless until i7 at least.

Couldn't fit Medicine in, though, and I don't have Fitness at the moment. It forces me to get into melee now and then to use Power Sink, but I want to get there anyway due to all my best attacks being melee. It's not a solo build, really, but sometimes you end up soloing anyway. I feel it does reasonably well in teams, so at least that's good.

I do try to pull when I can and that does work, it's actually just groups with bosses in them that are trouble and tend to force me to use hit and run tactics.

Everybody mentions inspirations, so I'm going to try using them more. My other toons tend to rely on drops but maybe it doesn't hurt me to actually buy some

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I've found Lightning Clap from the secondary (disorient/knocback) to be a very useful panic button if one of my holds fails to stick. As you say, relying on End drain is no good anymore (hopefully changing in I7) but two holds plus a lot of damage ought to help a lot. Given that you have two, holds I guess your level must be at least 38 - things get a lot easier for soloing once you can pick up some protection from your Epic. FWIW I find it more fun to solo on Unyielding since ED - DVM can still manage Invincible but it's slow enough going to feel like a grind.

DVM has Force mastery and wouldn't swap it for anything... Elec. mastery used to work well when I could End drain, but doesn't cut it anymore. It's also more tru to my original concept, just got tempted by the sparkly newness of Elec when I hit my 40's.

Should be OK with me. DVM will be available to fry enemies and die on demand.

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I was assuming that every tank needs stamina to function* and either teleport self, super jump, super speed or fly to travel. So swift being picked is not an extra power pick, rather that stone is 'forced' to pick it rather than Hurdle. I agree stone ( granite or not ) needs tp just as much as fire needs acrobatics but I classed that as the chosen travel power. Stone is 'forced' into the teleport pool just as Fire ( and Dark Armour ) is 'forced' into the Leaping pool.

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Which was the point - Fire is no worse off. I'm not suggesting that the situation is ideal, just that Fire isn't stuck nearly as far at the bottom of the heap as has been suggested.

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* All tanks are toggle heavy, whilst in theory you can get away without it, just using the required powers as stated above will result in almost no endurance regen for some of the tank primaries, especially those with a damage aura. Fire for instance cannot run the fighting pool, the jumping pool and it's primary and attack without heavy end slotting.

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However, once they've got a Taunt aura they don't need to attack to perform their primary function. I'm not suggesting that a build almost unable to attack would be either a good idea or fun - but it would still be able to tank. As far as being toggle heavy goes, that's certainly true - but the capacity to slot for End is an option, if not a very efficient one.

Stone, post-GA, really doesn't need Stamina, btw. It's forced into the pool by Swift - Health and Stamina are just very nice.

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The point of the pool powers is to help patch weaknesses or add bonuses to your build, problem is that tanks are in many cases required to take power pools in order to do their job properly.

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Yes, I believe that's what I said. My point was that it's practically all tanks, not a particular problem with Fire primary.

Although I'll happily bow to your greater experience on Ice, I don't recall seeing many builds which omit Tough/Weave and Combat Jumping.

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Don't have Weave, don't have Combat Jumping, didn't take Tough until I5 and even now it's only really useful against predominantly S/L foes.

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Fair enough. 3 out of 4 primaries is still most tanks, though. This does demonstrate rather well why there's been such a big upswing in starting Ice tanks, though.

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The point of the pool powers is to help patch weaknesses or add bonuses to your build, problem is that tanks are in many cases required to take power pools in order to do their job properly.

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Yes, I believe that's what I said. My point was that it's practically all tanks, not a particular problem with Fire primary.

Although I'll happily bow to your greater experience on Ice, I don't recall seeing many builds which omit Tough/Weave and Combat Jumping.

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I agree with most of what you've said, but if Fire needs Acrobatics, Stone needs TP just as much, for mobility not for travel.

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Blimey that takes me back to arguments of the past.

Probably more the case now that Swift doesn't hack it anymore. Although I would guess Filth doesn't have TP? as he was always very anti it on concept.

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Heh, yes it has come around before... I seem to remember that Filth also spent far less time in GA for general tanking, but I'm sure he can speak for himself.

Still, it wasn't meant to be a statement of fact on how to build a Stone tank - more to point I that I don't believe any Tanker primary that I'm very familiar with can do without pool powers any better than the others. I believe they all can, to an extent, but all have weaknesses which can be patched by pool powers.

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Stone may need swift for mobility and teleport as a travel power, but everyone gets the fitness pool anyway. Hasten is the only extra for a granite. Must have power count for a perma granite is 5 from the primary with one extra power.

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I agree with most of what you've said, but if Fire needs Acrobatics, Stone needs TP just as much, for mobility not for travel. Granite has no Knockback protection and Swift is nowhere near enough to allow mobility in GA + Rooted.

You say everyone takes Fitness anyway, and I realise that's true, but no other primary needs it to tank in the same way, it's just useful. In the same way, Provoke is helpful for getting around the -Recharge of GA, but not actually needed.

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But the fact that you need to take Acrobatics (+CJ+SJ) and Tough &amp; Weave (+Punch/Kick) to be able to do that shows a huge flaw in the powerset.

The lack of knockback protection was supposed to be a balance for the offensive power of Burn. Burn has now been rendered all but useless unless you're Fire/Ice but the rest of the powerset has seen nothing but nerfs. Personally, I'd resent being forced to take 6 pool powers just to have a functional tanker.

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Out of interest, what Tanker primaries do you think can tank acceptably without taking pool powers to fulfill that role? Ice and Inv Tanks still seem to take the Fighting pool and I've never seen a succesful Stone without Swift and Hasten - and a very large number look on Teleport as a requirement too.

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Fiery Aura. Nothing holds aggro like it when slotted correctly and coupled with taunt, makes them so much more effective at aggro management than other builds.

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I take you never tried Chilling Embrace..
That's the best taunt aura you can hope for, the foes are aggroed for an astounding amount of time, it's by far the best taunt aura you can hope to have. If you add to that that in the set there's _another_ taunt aura(Icicles) you'll see that at aggro grabbing there' nothing like Ice Armour.

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Chilling Embrace + Icicles = the best aggro retention ever. Add Energy Absorption every 30 seconds for your end recovery and addition defence and aggro grabbing and you have a cool combination.

IIRC The only advantage Fire have over Ice in aggro grabbing is the range of the Blazing Aura is bigger than Chilling Embrace(10ft) and Icicles(8ft). I think Blazing Aura may be 15ft but I could be wrong. This can be over come with a bit of mobility. However on the flip side Blazing Aura is not auto hit.

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Not only that but unless I'm completely mistaken, Fire is the only Tank primary with a Taunt aura that doesn't auto-hit. The taunt component of Mud Pots, CE and Invincibility certainly is, but I don't think that's true for BA as it's purely a damage aura with no debuff component.

I'll try and make it to the early run with Ghost (Rad/Rad). Should be there, but just got back today so I may oversleep...