Xury2

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Because this game doesn't have anything even resembling balance. And instead of fixing it, they decided to make it even more unbalanced in the last issue. Any more questions?

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This.

Incidentally Tankers actually do have a higher base damage modifier than Brutes (0.8 vs 0.75) but that's quickly overcome by Fury (which builds faster in a PvP zone). However they decided to change PvP into "lolbuffs, we're going to make everything based around DAMAGE!" which means some really stupid stuff happens in PvP now (see Flurry and Kick).

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Actually that's only true in PvE. Take a gander at the PvP numbers:

Tanker Super Strength
Brute Super Strength

Look at the numbers if target is player. They're identical.

It's been like this since Issue 13. The devs saw fit to make Tanker and Brutes do equal base damage for some oddball reason.

So Nny_the_mad is definately mad, but not crazy. You are not imagining things, your brute is dealing more then your tanker. And even with 1 point of fury, you're still dealing more damage then the tanker, assuming both are using build up or not.

DB is the worst choice of pvp attacks for any pvp melee character. By the time you're done animating 1 attack, you've already been hit by 2.

DB is strictly PvE oriented.

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I can see if you are a MM, then it's not exactly mandatory. But say you aren't a squishie that needs to run to stay alive, would you consider it possible to pvp effectively with a high run speed? The advantages would be two more power pools..and four powers in total (Assuming most people go SS and SJ) against melee, neither will really be able to kill the other until you start going head to head, at least for a short interval of time.

I can see a problem against ranged, but with those extra 2-4 powers you're getting, why not grab a patron or epic pool immob, slow or hold power or two?

The main problem I can think of is reaching your opponent, though with the veteran jump pack, and either the zone or arena travel powers, I don't see you being so crippled at getting around, and that much more effective, all at the cost of a little inf...

Thoughts?

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LOTS of factors to take into consideration.

Majority of the time, the people who face off against a Mastermind realize this is almost like rushing headlong against a well armed fortress. So engaging with the Mastermind changes from what you'd normally do for attacking other AT's. Some have good AE damage and will just drop your minions like crazy. Some can use repel, or TP foe to push you away from your minions. But you COULD use a travel power to rush back into BG range, but not without the travel power.

Temporary powers aren't a suitable substitute for real travel powers. Arena temp travel powers last 2 minutes, out of a 10 minute match. When you're in trouble, your lack of mobility will be your fatal flaw.

In a team setting, you'll pretty much be struggling to catch up to your teammates the entire match. You end up a liability instead of a help.

In pvp zones, you'll have a bit more trouble seeing as the big zone setting allows your opponent time to simply free move everywhere.

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I can see a problem against ranged, but with those extra 2-4 powers you're getting, why not grab a patron or epic pool immob, slow or hold power or two?

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Let me address this directly. Yes ranged IS going to be a big problem. But you seem to forget that the utility of mezing has been rendered vastly useless.

Since you are not a controller or Dominator, YOUR hold or immob will last 2 seconds. Period.

You can slot it with purple duraiton IO's, use Megalomaniac, and it will still last you 2 seconds. And Less then 2 seconds if they have any sort of hold protection whatsoever.

It's simply not a viable option to use those at all. Instead the developers saw fit to turn all mezing moves into damage moves. Large Damage or DOT damage for a 2 second mez.

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So I'm assuming you guys are also interested in the Mission Creator thingy?

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I look forward to killing everyone from PWNZ in one mish.

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Farming Developers, farming PWNZers, then farming... mods. Yea, sounds about right.

Mission what now? I just heard they added in the Castle farm. Oh wait I can do this with the Mission creator thingy, right!

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When I resub for I14 you can sure as hell guarantee that it won't be because of the PvP.

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It's different across archetypes, and different attributes such as regen, defense, accuracy, ect. I'd post it all if it wasn't so lengthy. I'm talking having numbers out for every atribute of every archetype.

I'm sure someone on paragonwiki can post the exact numbers. Or collaborate with others on that.

Let's put this in perspective for a moment. Lets say for example you're facing someone with the lowest mag protection to knockback, which is 2 different IO's that give mag 4 protection and a set bonus for mag 3 protection.

The mag 3 protection isn't always used, especially not as often as the mag 4. So let's go with just the 4.

Naturally, you have a few attacks that can beat this, and some that don't. You're looking at:

Energy Torrent: Mag 4.99
Power Push: Mag 13.30
Nova: Mag 16.62

Now it's not a common practice to go in a pvp zone without some kind of KB protection. But it happens. You might luck out if those are part of your attack chain.

Acrobatics is a mag 9 protection. Already you've got 2 attacks that go past that, without slotting for knockback.

2 things to consider now. IF you slot for knockback, are you not slotting for damage? And are you doing knockback sets when you could be doing more damage with better set bonuses?

Another is knockback suppression. You won't be knocking someone over with EVERY attack even if you slotted everything for knockback. You'd knock someone over once, then no more for a few seconds.

What would be best is to slot up something like power push, and it will be recharged by the time knockback suppression is over and just keep using that one to knock someone back.

Also, Melee types in their mez protection have mag 10 knockback protection... however they also get knockback Resist. This number is 10,000%. Any knockback you throw at them is going to be reduced to something extremely low. Which is why it's best to mez them first.

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The forum monster eating your post would have sucked so I added it to the existing Elusivity page on paragonwiki.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Elusivity

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Oh, cool.

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/wrists

hasnt there been a dozen or more posts just like this one? guy move on. its old news

fyi, players still have the option to "arena" using the old system. there you can turn off travel suppression and DR

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Eh? Those 2 options don't turn off the damage increases, global resists, or the mez changes. I admit, no travel suppression is good. No Diminishing returns without the other options being able to be turned off though is pretty detrimental to it's usage.

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Stalker:

Secondary Powers:

(Energy Armor) Kinetic Shield: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, EnergyElusivity +30%
(Energy Armor) Power Shield: ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

(Ninjitsu) Ninja Reflexes: MeleeElusivity +40%
(Ninjitsu) Danger Sense: RangedElusivity, AoEElusivity +30%

(Super Reflexes) Focused Fighting: MeleeElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Focused Senses: RangedElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Evasion: AoEElusivity +30%


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The meleeElusivity was supposed to have been fixed (decreased from 40% to 30%) in a previous patch. CoD is slightly out of date (live version = 18.20081210.10T4, CoD version = 18.20081105.2T).

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Mkay, changing.

List, here you go:

Blaster:

Ancillary Powers:

(Cold Mastery) Frozen Armor: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

(Force Mastery)Personal Force Field: BaseElusivity +80%

Controller:

Secondary Power:

(Force Field) Personal Force Field: BaseElusivity +80%

Ancillary Powers:

(Ice Mastery) Frozen Armor: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

(Stone Mastery) Rock Armor: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

Defender:

Primary Powers:

Personal Force Field: BaseElusivity +80%

Scrapper:

Secondary Powers:

(Shield Defense) Deflection: MeleeElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Shield Defense) Battle Agility: RangedElusivity, AoEElusivity +30%

(Super Reflexes) Focused Fighting: MeleeElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Focused Senses: RangedElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Evasion: AoEElusivity +30%

Tanker:

Primary Powers:

(Ice Armor) Frozen Armor: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity +30%
(Ice Armor) Glacial Armor: PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

(Shield Defense) Deflection: MeleeElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Shield Defense) Battle Agility: RangedElusivity, AoEElusivity +30%

(Stone Armor) Rock Armor: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity +30%
(Stone Armor) Crystal Armor: EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%
(Stone Armor) Minerals: PsionicElusivity +30%

Kheldians:

No Elusivity for Squids. Not Peacebringer or Warshade.

Brute:

Secondary Powers:

(Energy Armor) Kinetic Shield: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, EnergyElusivity +30%
(Energy Armor) Power Shield: ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%
(Energy Armor) Overload: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +20%

(Shield Defense) Deflection: MeleeElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Shield Defense) Battle Agility: RangedElusivity, AoEElusivity +30%

(Stone Armor) Rock Armor: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity +30%
(Stone Armor) Crystal Armor: EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%
(Stone Armor) Minerals: PsionicElusivity +30%

(Super Reflexes) Focused Fighting: MeleeElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Focused Senses: RangedElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Evasion: AoEElusivity +30%

Stalker:

Secondary Powers:

(Energy Armor) Kinetic Shield: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, EnergyElusivity +30%
(Energy Armor) Power Shield: ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

(Ninjitsu) Ninja Reflexes: MeleeElusivity +30%
(Ninjitsu) Danger Sense: RangedElusivity, AoEElusivity +30%

(Super Reflexes) Focused Fighting: MeleeElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Focused Senses: RangedElusivity, PsionicElusivity +30%
(Super Reflexes) Evasion: AoEElusivity +30%

Mastermind:

Secondary Powers:

(Force Field) Personal Force Field: BaseElusivity +80%

Patron Powers:

(Mace Mastery) Scorpion Shield: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

Dominator:

Patron Powers:

(Mace Mastery) Personal Force Field: BaseElusivity +80%
(Mace Mastery) Scorpion Shield: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

Corrupter

Patron Powers:

(Mace Mastery) Scorpion Shield: SmashingElusivity, LethalElusivity, ColdElusivity, FireElusivity, PsionicElusivity, EnergyElusivity, NegativeElusivity +30%

Arachnos Soldier:

Would you believe None whatsoever?

Arachnos Widdow:

(Teamwork) Foresight: MeleeElusivity, RangedElusivity, AoEElusivity +30%


That's about it. The general rule (With the exception of the Arachnos Widdow and Overload) is primary defense toggles get elusivity. Epic shields that are toggles also get the same. Only the widdow gets elusivity as an auto power.

You win.

dude wtf we r dueling!!!!!11

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Wait, wait. . . .as long as I rebubble before the original PBU Bubble fades, then my new bubbles will be buffed as well?

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Not exactly - it's that the original PBU'd bubbles have their duration refreshed, they aren't 'new' bubbles. If you or your target zones, you'll have to do the whole thing over.

But yeah.. it's fantastic.

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I was never quite sure if this was a glitch or a mistake in the 'real numbers' system. I was also never sure if, when I had refreshed the bubbles that those numbers weren't glitched.

Thanks for confirming this. It really helps out on my controller

To be more specific it shares the exact same animation as Gloom. Well that's why I say it is almost as quick. But Gloom shoots pretty fast.

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I actually would like your opinion. What do you think about the changes to Earth control in I12, where your target no longer has to be on the floor to effect... that coupled with the very fast recharging quicksand. Stacking tons of -def and procs with it.

You think that'll make it a lot more viable, on a Dom?

[/ QUOTE ]I can't say I've put much thought into earth even after the fix, I know you can't slot achilles into the build which is a big downside. The set really only has that AOE slow going for it since the pet does lawl smashing damage and apparently just stands back and trows rocks. Sure the -def will be helpful against builds that do alot of -tohit but there are already builds currently that can deal with -tohit. It'll be an okay set I'm sure though, I'm not aware of all the procs you can slot into -def.

I'm also not totally sure how long the animations in stone are. One major thing I forgot and left out of my tips and tricks was the emphasis on dominators being able to maneuver and react quickly. Long animating sets in pvp are a death wish for doms who must react quickly to maybe an oncoming spike from a blaster or an AS from a stalker. There is very little room for error if you're pvping on a dom since your HP is low and you have no access to self heal. This is why I like to make builds with fast animating attacks like mind/fire for example. Other builds with more lag on the animations still work as well but you have to be alot more careful and there is less room for error, you need to anticipate alot more and assess what's going on around you before you do the long animating attack such as shiver or TF.

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I figured as much. I am going to try an earth/fire build when I get the opportunity. I've always thought earth control was cool, but it was unfortunate that it actually played out kinda sucky. And yes, it was mostly due to the fact that you could just out-jump the entire effects.

Few things to mention though.

It's single target hold, fossilize, shares an animation with dominate. The hold out your hand one. As far as I've seen it's almost as quick.

Everything except quicksand and earthquake is -15% Defense. Quicksand is -25%, and earthquake is -11%. So pretty much if you land a few hits, you won't have much a problem hitting anymore.

Patches, seeing how they were buffed recently, makes things easier. Earth contains 3 patches, but Quicksand is the best. Quicksand CAN be given enough recharge to have 3-4 patches at once. So you can cover a huge area with it, on top of 2 other patches. If you get someone caught in it, unless they have some hard speed debuff resists, you can stack it and they won't ever get out short of teleport... Plus it allows you to use knockback in it.

As far as procs go, you can slot in quake -def procs, quicksand Slow procs, Sleep proc in (lol) salt crystals... I dunno, maybe fortuna hypnosis proc would make it ok... but I just read it had a 90 second recharge on it for some reason. All other aoe sleeps are 45secs. So it still blows chunks. Everything else slots like normal controls go. Achilles would have been very handy, but I assume the devs already had that one prepared for since ALL earth attacks could be proced that way.

In damage it almost mirrors Ice/. Heck it mirrors ice in a lot of ways. Only thing is quicksand > Ice Slick. Quicksand does not do knockdown, but it has a 30 sec recharge, compared to a 90 second Ice slick.

So I will try and work some magic with this set, see if I can get it to come back to life in pvp. Mind, I'd never do this if it weren't for the I12 changes.

I actually would like your opinion. What do you think about the changes to Earth control in I12, where your target no longer has to be on the floor to effect... that coupled with the very fast recharging quicksand. Stacking tons of -def and procs with it.

You think that'll make it a lot more viable, on a Dom?

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I admit to not having read through everything, but as a quick work around, you could make the flag a hostage. That would suppress stealth and speed without even needing extra code, because obviously you'd lose them if you tried.

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Something about making the 'flag' a hostage rubs me the wrong way. Especially looking at the hostages in the LRSF that sometimes get really stupid.

I'd like the flag to just be a flag that supresses stuff automatically while being held.

Mechanics might have to change. Take this for a few ideas:

#1: The flag is a glowie, instatly picked up as you click it.
#2: The flag works like the trip mines do, instangly picked up as you walk into it (this one seems like it might get bugged easily).

Drop the flag after defeat, could be the other team clicks it, or runs into it to return it back to the start position, or:

Have the flag be on a set timer to return, 12-15 seconds.

To capture the flag, you could:

#1: Have it so that you have to take the flag to a certain point to capture it, sort of like the invisable line that gives a point if it sees you have the enemy flag. (Same kind that is used for ambushes sometimes)
#2: Have to have capture it to your own flag, meaning if both flags are in play, you have to return yours first. (Might be hard to program, I dunno)
#3: A combination of 1 and 2. Have to capture the flag at a certain point, but only if your flag is back in it's place.

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Would you supress stealth or movement on the flag carrier?

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I would supress stealth completely. Otherwise stalkers would just capture and stay out of the 10 foot range.

I would try and make teleport work like Unreal tournament in the fact that if you use, or someone else uses teleport on you, it drops the flag where you were. If that could not be worked out, I would just disable TP completely if they have the flag.

For SS/SJ, the flag holder would have a SET maximum run and Jump speed and height. Otherwise you could take in a Granite tank, speed boost him, and nothing could really stop him. And speaking of which...

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Would you disable certain powers or power pools while participants were playing it?

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As said, stone tanks might be a problem if they're speed boosted. However what I think may solve this is that while they are holding the flag, they are also more vulnerable to speed debuffing.

That way, again, speed boost won't be a terrible problem even with a low maximum speed.

As an example, say the granite gets the flag, under speed boost. He runs, and ignores all the caltrops, tar patches, quicksand, ect.... he just runs through them all, ignoring the incoming hits. Nothing's stoping him because of speed boost's resistance to speed debuffs, and now he's getting healed by an incoming empath or therm. You can't really beat that.

However if the flag drastically lowers resist to speed debuffs, at least the enemy team can keep him slowed while they try and retaliate.

OR

Add in no speed resistance debuff in the flag, and only keep the max run speed/jump and height debuff. Make the max speed debuff and stuff pretty low, but have full speed debuff resistance whenever speed boosted.


Only a few ideas I had.

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/so very signed

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From the original post:
The mini-game for RV is a bit different from all the others since it directly effects the zone itself and the entire zone is tallied for a win or loss. Therefore, there really is no PVE element to it. Anyone in PVE mode should be rendered incapable of targeting and attacking the pillboxes or npcs (say that they are subtly out of phase with the temporal locus the anchors and PVPers are at or something ). PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything.

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See, the bold part is where the problem is still: The devs do not want a way to collect badges without any risk involved. Oh sure you could collect explorations on your 50, but you could also do that at level 1.

Here's why though: Patch notes, Issue 5

The devs have stated that they don't want people to be able to go in at any level, where mobs con purple or something and be able to get badges. To me, this says that badges definately ARE important to the devs.

I had a disccusion with Dr_Discomfort about this issue. He was saying it was all PvP's fault that Phase shift got nerfed. Then he brought up a direct quote from Posi. He stated that it was a nerf for both PvP and PvE. 1st you had people tanking hamadon, thus earning Hami-os with little risk. 2nd you had people phasing and getting badges at very low or minimal levels.

How is that different then invis? Some mobs have +perception so they'd still be able to see you. Snipers for example.

3rd. PvP arena, people just phase after getting 1 point and that's game over. Although riddle me this... Badges are permanent and grant accolades, Hamadon gives hami-os, and arena matches give no reward. To me it seems that the first 2 were very important to the devs.

Therefore people being able to enter the zones and unable to be attacked in any way, players or mobs, and collect badges leaves a sour taste in the devs you know what.

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As I go into here, the only "upgraded PVE danger" a PVPer might face is a Shivan EB. These can be dealt with in the same fashion that one deals with an abandoned Christmas Present spawn and are localized to six known locations that actually appear on the map.

The only npcs a PVE player might interfere with would be the faction-aligned spawns in Siren's Call. While putting Fortitude on a Longbow Flamethrower or rocking-the-aura for a Tarantual Mistress might fall under the category of "annoying", it isn't game breaking or something that prevents a play element. The spawns are unlikely to be that dangerous to a PVP team in the first place, they are again localized to specific spots and any PVP-build worth its salt has un-supressable travel, the hotspots and "control of Siren's Call" would no longer gate access to the currently un-bought-and-unused reward temps with implementation of merit-alikes, and at the current time the hotspots already serve merely as map locations to let PVPers know "where the fight is". I actually see people more often fighting near the oil rigs.

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Waitaminute... didn't you just say they can't attack anything if they're in pve mode? You said,"PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything."

How are they going to participate in this if they can't attack?

This brings me straight back to what I said earlier. If they were somehow able to interact with ONLY npc mobs in a pvp zone, how are they somehow not able to interact with pvpers?

But if people who, as you've suggested, might want to pvp, can somehow NOW attack npc only mobs, why should they even care about pvp? They've got their rewards, and no players can bother them.

I ask you who read this... those who do not pvp or do not like it. If you were given the option as the OP has suggested, as to getting the benefits of the pvp zone without ever having to engage in pvp, or other players bothering you... would it make you care for pvp?

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The expression of charity in the above statement also might be seen as admirable, but the specific players in quiestion might also see it as interference.

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Maybe if you're really, really anti-social. I can't remember the last time I didn't say thank you to someone who came along and saved my behind while getting overwhelmed, saving me a trip to the hospital or debt.

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Furthermore, that type of situation is an edge case. It's not terribly often I run into a character in a regular zone that is in over their head, rarer that I'm in a position to do something about it in time, and rarer still that assistance is wanted.

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I can't speak for others. I can say for myself I do that all the time in both PvP and PvE. Appreciated or not. I won't hesitate to save someone I see in trouble, in whatever way I can.

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From the original post:
A potential criticism of this idea I've heard before is "PVP is for PVP zones and PVE is for PVE zones; leave PVP for PVP". This mental segregation is foolish. Beyond the fact that there is already nominal reason for PVEers to enter for badges and such, all the PVPers already PVP. It is the PVEers that would need to be courted to find something appealing in PVP for it to flourish. That will only happen with more (and better) exposure. This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try. The only standpoint from which this is a bad thing is the opinion that PVEers are drawn into PVP zones to be the rightful prey of dedicated PVPers. Strangely, "you are there for my enjoyment" is rarely an attractive argument for people .

While it might have happened, I consider it unlikely that many people heard that there were badges in CoX and bought the game. Yet badging is a thriving, active subcommunity in the game. Some leapt at it when they got their first shiney, some after they had acquired a substantial collection by osmosis, some after they had tired of other activities in the game. Regardless it was always there for them to pick up (or not) as their interest and mood dictated at the time. They were not given an option of looking at it once and deciding on the spot, in that one mindset of the moment, whether they wanted to 'be a badger' or not.

If PVP is going to draw casual players, it needs to be something people can eye, poke at, leave where it is, and come back to some other time. "One tour and then get out if you aren't a true PVPer" is barely better, if not actively worse, than today's model for the PVP zones.

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Allright badge hunter goes in, gets all exploration easy, does a patrol mission for that badge, does a pvp mission for that badge, run out of the zone and he's done. He never has to go there again. He'll farm rep with his friends for the 400rep badge. For some that wouldn't sound bad at all.

For new players, you say it's about first impressions? Some people go in, and get beat and never come back? Well they'd go in, watch and decide. The contacts should explain this too. It couldn't possibly be 'worse'.

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But far more importantly, removing the flagging concept removes the ability of the zones to be used for PVE story arcs.

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So they're PvE story arcs now are they? Didn't you say: "The mini-game for RV is a bit different from all the others since it directly effects the zone itself and the entire zone is tallied for a win or loss. Therefore, there really is no PVE element to it."

I had no idea Lord Recluse was being played by a Dev the entire time. I don't honestly remember him saying," I'm using temporal anchors to try and take over the world. It's your job to beat 4 turrets on top, but leave the hero players alone, cause they're in pve mode, even though they're trying to stop me from taking over the world."

Zones have always been a hybrid of both pvp and pve elements. This would not work out storyline wise.

Bloody bay: Longbow and arachnos are searching for the source of the shivians. Both will use it to a great advantage, in one stopping the other. So go out and get those shards for great power... only dont' hurt each other cause they're in pve mode.

Siren's call: Lord recluse is trying to gain a foothold in invading paragon city. It's up to the heroes to stop him, only don't attack the villains because they're in pve mode.

Warburg: Nukes are a very dangerous piece of equipment. Hero or villain. Trust NO ONE... but also don't hurt anyone becuase they're in pve mode.

It really is, just that silly, when you think about it. The pvp zones all have a story behind it, and why it's a pvp zone. It was the players that made it a lot more then just that.

And here's why: Raise your hand if you hate doing Frostfire missions. *raises hand*

It's probably because you've done it tons of times already and are sick of it. It never changes. Ever. That is the nature of PvE.

Now, what if the developers said," We've redone frostfire. His building is different, his powers are different, and he spawns not just in low level missions, but high level ones... and he's a part of a task force."

You can bet people would be all over that. Now, the same thing about pvp zones. Once you've done the events... well for most the 'shiny' effect goes away, and things go back to normal.

Again, Sirens call. People have done the hotspots, which IS the storyline. Then after a while they just don't do it anymore, via pvp interuption or bordeom. So because no one is that much interested in it, people turn to the alternative. PvP. People tend to forget that it was intended for both.

So now you have people saying Sirens is for PvP only! Not true at all. All the zones are part of the ongoing battle of longbow and arachnos. You are either the hero or villain who aids them by taking out both mobs and players.

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Traffic to the zones would not increase and the financial rationale for implementing build switching would disappear. If there is no traffic increase and no reduction in the entry barrier, there is no incentive for coding a system of grouping opposing PVP teams in weighted fashion. If neither of those are there, there's no point in making a reward system for a game element that will structurally and culturally keep itself from growing.

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So doing all what you said would work? All it would do is get people doing more PvE in a PvP zone, with no actual PvP going on. Sure they'll be in the zone... but if this flagging goes on, they're not PvPing, thus keeping the numbers stagnent.

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Now what about the whole hero and villain thing? What if 2 people are both in the zone and PvEing... and are stealing each other's mobs?

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This is basic killstealing and already exists in the game. What's more, I've already encountered it hero-vs-villain (we did not attack each other at all) in the BB salvage yards.

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Actually my point was that there's nothing they can do about it. They can't say," Hey we're both hunting, let's team."

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But those are my reason PvP flaging wouldn't be a good idea. I'm seeing a lot of ways to exploit the system. Plus as many problems as it might solve, there will be others that crop up.

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The above criticisms either can't happen or are edge cases. Since it gives a chance of revitalizing PVP, avoiding it for unspecified-yet-inevitable future problems is not a sound argument.

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I did specify. I said heal/buffing with no risk. Not being able to aid allies, and Dual boxing safely. In this post I mention badge hunting(although I'm confused on what you mean on flagging now, you said no attacking then you said only attacking NPCs).

And now about your 'higher level spawns for PvE' thing... Lemme give you a scenario:

Dual boxing tanker. Gets on with Granite armor. Goes in to WB, and taunts up some Elite bosses... since that's what you mention.

Well you say pvpers don't generate argo or drawdistance like he does. Well people come in on pvp mode, he puts taunt on auto, PLUS the fact that the npc prefers to attack him... So all he's doing is taunting, and then the pvp mode 'villains' come in, and just waste the EB with no danger at all... to the Hero either.

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The idea around it is you can choose which other players to interact with *period*. Whether they belonged to your faction or not. So again what you describe is not going to happen unless it is as a massive load of buffs right before a challenge is accepted. In that case I doubt the same player would accept challenge a second time (which is also the point).

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That's reasonable.

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If you are fighting in a location where you are taking fire from your opponent *and* npcs: move.

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Ironically I usually tell people who badge hunt the same thing when they get attacked by a player

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Here's my suggestion to this instead:

Allow challange mode to be setup the same way, but WITH being able to be interfered with by the outside. You see the challangers as conning RED as if you were taunted.

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Outside players will see you conned as a lighter color of orange or blue. If the challangers are hit with outside interference, via NPC or healing, the challange is temporarly dropped for 20 seconds... thus giving them time to either move away or just drop it alltogether.

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Rather than fixing a problem that doesn't exist, this actually creates the problem it purports to address.

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I still think the red con, light blue, light orange con would work as indicators.

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Merit System

I like it. This is something we've asked for, for a long time now. But I would make 1 suggestion to this...

Most of the items listed here aren't used much for pvp. I would say add in the option for a LOT of rep to get a random generic IO (at their level), or a random pool C IO.

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The idea for the merit-alikes is that they are free to be given without distoring the market (or any other part of the game). What you describe would have to be set so ludicrously high in cost to prevent it being conceivably earned by "cheating" that it would both be pointless in code-execution and come to be seen as an insult by those it was meant to entice.

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I'm not seeing why. It it so much harder to get a pool C IO from defeating 20 white con minions then it is from perhaps 20 defeated players... also factoring in the wait time before rep points are available, AND the team split of rep points?

Like say, you need 20 or 30 rep points for a random Generic IO, which is the same as if you had defeated a minion.

50 or 60 rep for a random Pool C IO?

These are much harder to get then say, just regular PvE alone. Honestly, just run through 1 mission, defeating everything. You can finish it in what... 5-20 minutes solo? Solo in a PvP zone, can you gain 20 or higher rep in 5-20 minutes? WITH the recharge timer on reputaion?

Come on... You could be running missions and have tons more IO and Set stuff then pvping. It's not stepping on anyone's toes... it's offering a reward for participating in pvp.


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Mutual Support
On the face of it, adding a seperate PVP power build for characters sounds complex, but the effort can be rationalized as work towards new PVE play options. (The Ouroboros system would ensure such content was on offer to all existing characters as well.) Allowing groups of opposite factions to merge into a "team" in which opposite faction members may attack one another but no one else might also be complicated. Or it might simply be an expansion of the existing grouping mechanics of the game and the Ouroboros limits already exist. The Merit system is proven and popular in the game already. Regardless of their difficulty or ease, in order to work all of them would have to be present at the same time. PVE to PVP build toggling is useless if no one wants to enter the zone because of ubiquitous and unavoidable bad behavior. A dueling system that lets you avoid encounters with players found unpleasant and compete with those you choose to is useless if the entry barrier competition still limits participants to those with a dedicated PVP build. Neither has any lasting appeal unless there is a reward that can be shaped to be whatever a given player might find interesting. All would have to be implemented together to allow their complements to work.

It's not about "I want as much as he got". It's about expanding the game, leaving the play elements PVPers currently enjoy*, preventing the situations that drive people from the zones right now, and giving people freedom to examine-take-or-leave PVP casually.

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We're not asking for "We want as much as he got". We want attention. I think the "I want as much as he got." debate is best saved for those with tin-foil hats debating why COH > COV or vice verca.

Not bad HB, not bad at all.

There was a few things I wanted to address though, the first was on Flagging.

I'm a believer that there SHOULD be seperate PvP and PvE builds. But I'm with Pax, and strongly disagree that there should be a 'PvP off' mode in pvp zones.

See, here's the thing... If it does happen, there needs to be an option where the two could NEVER interact, which IMO is counter-productive to everything you've said.

This was because of something that was brought to my attention on my own server. During an event in Recluse's victory, there was a lot of heroes in the zone that were going AV hunting. Also in the zone were about 5 or 6 villains. So they were grossly outnumbered. The thing was, they didn't mind.

So when Lord Recluse spawned, the heroes went after him. Since the villains would get thrashed if they went up against that many heroes at once, instead they buffed Lord Recluse. Forge, Shileds, Fulcrum shift. They were killed for doing that... but they instead 'went to base' and respawned again right next to them (an issue which should be fixed).

Now they had a 30 second timer of no pvp... Again, they buffed/healed Lord Recluse with no risk at all to them, and all the heroes wiped.

Now what I'm trying to get at is not," OMG Those guys are jerks!" What I'm trying to get at is," OMG look how they exploited the system!"

Now think about this for a moment if you will. You've got an empath, who uses their PvE build for PvP. They will not turn on pvp mode, but will actively heal, and buff people who are pvping, while they just get to stand, unharmed by all.

This also will help people who Dual box, or even tri box to take their pocket emp/therm/kins to stand on a rooftop or something nearby, away from the mobs, and just hand out buffs easily instead of them having to run back to base.

So people would see this happening and just leave pvp if they know people are just going to abuse the system in that way.

Now, what if we DO make it so that PvE and PvP cannot interact? Well what if someone's genuinely in trouble? Like for example if the PvE mobs that are nice and upgraded start hitting the PvP players hard, and the player is in trouble of getting zone debt? Well they can't really help you at all, besides someone with taunt.

Or vice verca, A pvper hero sees someone PvE getting overwhelmed, and he tries to help them out... but let's say he's a buffer class. Well he can't buff him at all, or heal him. It's rather depressing that you can't help out them unless you run back to base and 'switch off' pvp mode if this were true.

But again, imagine the Recluses Victory scenario. 2 opposing sides both in PvE mode, and 1 guy is buffing or healing the archvillains/hero and there's no way to stop him from doing so... because he's not PvPing, he's buffing a PvE mob, which is fine in the PvE game anyway.

Oh sure you could make it so he can't buff/heal the npcs in the zone, but wasn't that the point of Recluse's victory and Sirens call? The storyline of both is you're defending your side, pvp or not.

I'm not seeing a way that this wouldn't be exploited, unless you made it a 1 time deal. After they enter the zone and not con for pvp, if they enter again, they are flagged for pvp.

The way I see it, if a badge hunter just wants to badge hunt and has NO interest in pvp whatsoever, no matter how many rewards or goodies are thrown in... well they go in once, get everything they need, and leave with no problems.

Wether or not this would be limited to actually exiting or logging out, I'm not sure. But I would be sure that it would be once per pvp zone.

Now what about the whole hero and villain thing? What if 2 people are both in the zone and PvEing... and are stealing each other's mobs?

They can't attack each other or team each other. I offer you this conversation between 2 PvErs in Recluses victory fighting over PvE mobs. They were both on the same side, but refused to team... I'm seeing situations like this arising.

But those are my reason PvP flaging wouldn't be a good idea. I'm seeing a lot of ways to exploit the system. Plus as many problems as it might solve, there will be others that crop up.

Challanges

I like the idea around it.

Only again, like I had said for flagging, what's to stop outside interference, via buffs and healing? Wanted or unwanted, it's gonna happen. Oh and what about mobs? What if the challangers are moving around and mobs, like Longbow are shooting the villains only? Yet they can't interact with anything else but the other players they've challanged, so they can't fight back? Nor can their allys (Outside allies of the same fraction I mean) heal the damage from NPCs.

This would call on reworking of the NPCs as well.

Here's my suggestion to this instead:

Allow challange mode to be setup the same way, but WITH being able to be interfered with by the outside. You see the challangers as conning RED as if you were taunted.

Outside players will see you conned as a lighter color of orange or blue. If the challangers are hit with outside interference, via NPC or healing, the challange is temporarly dropped for 20 seconds... thus giving them time to either move away or just drop it alltogether.

Merit System

I like it. This is something we've asked for, for a long time now. But I would make 1 suggestion to this...

Most of the items listed here aren't used much for pvp. I would say add in the option for a LOT of rep to get a random generic IO (at their level), or a random pool C IO.

Other then that, yea it's a good suggestion.

Mutual Support

And this folks, is what it's all about. We would like some love, just as much as the PvE game gets love... although to clarify I'm not in love any of you, so stop sending me love notes Rei.

And H_B about your second post. I don't disagree with any of it. I would find all of that extremely fun.

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come to test

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I'll fight your DB on test Tiger

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What if we don't play on justice? Do you come to test?