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Posts
2017 -
Joined
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Quote:It is very simple:I feel almost rude interjecting here (Hello I'm Captain-Electric!), but there are going to be lots of people on both sides naturally, and a lot of the people who like all the content in the game will be too busy playing the game. Believe me (or not, but I have no reason to lie), my roommate, and many of my in-game friends have never not looked forward to new Praetorian content! My roomy never wants to leave that place! But we are also excited that new storylines and themes are busting into the picture to shake things up. I socialize a lot within the game and have made several good friends and know dozens of people on a more superficial level, but I can't (and wouldn't, even if I could) speak for all of them. Out of all of those people, I am the ONLY one I know of who actually visits these forums, so you won't see them speaking for themselves either. That also tells me something about how representative the forums are....
Golden Girl makes bold claims (she is passionate about her favorite game) and I get that you're in disagreement about some of those claims. But asking her...what, exactly? To go and do research or poll people and drop names/speak for people (which is NEVER advisable, and I trust that both you and her know that) seems unrealistic! If someone asked me to bring them a pile of evidence on an Internet forum, I wouldn't believe they were being serious! Goodness, who has that kind of time?!?! This is a very small slice of my life. This isn't an episode of Perry Mason! You remember that show? Because it just popped in my head for some reason. Used to stay up late to watch it when I was a kid. Oh man, I have no idea why. Must have been a good show I guess...hmmm. I can't remember it too well. ANYWAY....
If you can't back up a claim. Don't make it. -
Quote:Thing is - the disconnect you feel for golden age costumes might be the very same thing that appeals to the people asking for them. To use anime as an allegory: I dislike anime due to certain visual elements it has, which are probably the very thing that drives most of its fans to love it.I'll be honest and say I find the Golden and Silver-age costume styles tend to look goofy as all hell to me. As I said before if you ask for spandex and tights I'm going to disagree because, well, those are nice for parodies and homages, but It can wear a bit thin on characters who are actual characters versus characters who are just one long in-joke. Which is probably where my disconnect came from. There is lots of "grandfathering" going on in modern comics that lets me turn a blind eye there, but if, say Superman were presented to me as a completely original and new concept today I'd very likely laugh. But more " Super hero Costume" minded things is good. I do like the new approach taken of a textured underlayer with bits added on.
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Quote:Interesting post. I believe the Dark Astoria story should be self-contained and only contain lore that is relevant to the original concept of Dark Astoria. I.e. Banished Pantheon, Circle of Thorns, Mot, etc. Adding Praetorians does little to enhance the story you're trying to tell there. Why not have Baron Zoria - leader of the Circle of Thorns and arch-enemy of the Dream Doctor - as the new villain trying to become the harbinger of death? Rather than Tammy Arcanus with a goatee?Although I don't agree with your stance, I cannot un-agree with the above. Perfectly stated.
However, there comes a problem. Some don't like when you ad hominem content, twisting it so it fits what you need to tell a particular story to progress plot a certain way. For instance, people that like First Ward may have liked it better that the original writer finish it vs another writer 3yrs down the line bending it to tell some story about Mako or Scirocco. Sure, the new writer is progressing the main plot with other story ends, but for what?
That said, I wouldn't mind having old plots revisited but, for pure example, I probably wouldn't enjoy there being a link between Dark Astoria and the Shadow Shard (I really do not like the SS, not the zone, the plot is meh, and I don't care for it much at all...I like the concept of a dimension eater, but that is all) just to springboard new stuff about Rularuu.
It all comes down to 'you won't please everyone all the time'...
Yes you won't please everyone all the time, but that excuse is always used to justify bad writing. Which is what this game is seriously suffering from.
Quote:And that's a bald-faced lie. Just because folks on the forums say they don't like it doesn't mean they represent the entirety, or even the majority of the playerbase. I know plenty of folks who not only really like Praetoria, but would find it awesome if there was Praetorian content ranging from 1-50.
And I'm one of them.
Who are these people?
Prove it. Show me them.
People on the forum disliking it is absolutely irrelevant here. Golden Girl is making a claim. I'm asking her for the evidence to back that up. -
Agreed. Although, like I said before, the demand isn't for silver or golden age costumes. While those things are more than welcome, the demand is for more superheroic costumes in general.
To me that suggests Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, Platinum Age. In addition to the core fundamentals to all ages that this game still doesn't get right.
I went over all this in my last post. -
Quote:So there''s 6 people who want more Praetoria content.There are still people who want to play as a Praetorian without having to ever go to Primal Earth - before First Ward, there were 6 people who'd actually hit 50 in Praetoria by exemplaring for the last 30 levels.
Not exactly a big number haha!
Quote:The people who enjoyed the first Ward stories. And there are people who want to know what happens to Katie Douglas - and the devs have said that we'll get that storyline too.
You can say Golden Girl cares. But who else? Where are the posts from people clamouring to know how Diabolique's story works out? Where's your evidence? -
Quote:No there isn't.But people were asking for more Praetorian content - not everyone like the way the GR content cut off at 20 - and there are still people asking for a full 1-50 Praetorian experience.
Who? -
Quote:Agreed completely. Retro-fitting stuff seems to be common place given that Positron (the character) is suddenly super duper important. To be honest I have little hope for this game's storyline ever since I heard one of the devs say they weren't going to touch on old plot threads because they were:Something like the Well of the Furies wouldn't have been so bad if it had been the explanation for superpowers when the game was launched. Sort of how Freedom Force's universe was entirely built on the arrival of Energy X to Earth. The problem arose when the devs tried to shoehorn it into the game hideously late in the day; and to make matters worse, decided to shoehorn the Praetorians into everything at the same time.
"Someone else's stories who're no longer with the company".
Any writer of an ongoing serial that says the above should consider another profession. The old plot points are not "someone else's stories". The new plot points are not "your stories". The CoH game lore is bigger than any one writer and should be treated with respect accordingly...rather than as a platform to introduce some completely random concepts that have little to do with the existing lore. This isn't fanfiction; the contributions of all writers should feed into the general narrative, rather than from it.
The zone could have easilly been repurposed as a Paragon Zone.
Who cares.
Quote:I take your point but I'd say there's a massive caveat there: IF the story was any good, people would be loving it - but sadly the whole thing seems to be built by a committee of accountants, not creative artists.
Personally I feel that since the news of GR broke what we've been experiencing is a great uplift in quality of the game in terms of graphics, powers, and mechanics, but the story has plummeted in quality at the same time.
I am constantly left totally undewhelmed by the dogpile we are given as "story" these days. -
The problems/weaknesses of the story would be much more forgivable if the story itself hadn't dragged on for so long. Players are fatigued. Praetoria as a starter zone, the apex and tin mage tf, and possibly a Tyrant TF, are all that should have been done Praetoria-wise. Forcing it into incarnate lore, alignment switching, First Ward, and now Dark Astoria (which is beyond rediculous) doesn't really add anything to the meta-story of the game.
As for the Well of the Furies? Well...you know something is a bad idea storywise when the majority of the games roleplayers ignore it. -
tl;dr version: read Astro City and copy their ideas. Not verbatim, but rather the general vibe and feel of their costumed heroes/villains. THAT is what everyone complaining about "not enough superhero stuff" wants. Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross are the genius's behind it.
I gotta point out that lack of love for traditional western comic superheroes aesthetics is what the concern is here. While new golden age / silver age stuff would be absolutely fanastic, it's not the overall concern. See here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=279872
Also: golden age and silver age aesthetics differ. Having a costume pack for each would be fantastic and would obviously sell extremely well. For inspiration? Look at the competition (the newer one), it does it better. Also look at comics in general and see how they do it.
Quote:So are basic jeans, bowler hats, waistcoats, jackets, hair, boots, etc, etc. Yet updated versions of all those things have been released. I think it's unfair to say that the "basic" super-heroic options are of the same quality as the basics of other things. (Such as casual clothing.) They are definitely in need of improvement.Obviously, COH was originally conceived with that era in mind, and many "basic" super-heroic options are already available.
So yeah basically copy (DO NOT REPLACE) what you have, improve it, and then release it. Patterns that aren't painted on, but that actually have clear lined, possibly raised, edges. Face-masks that sit off the skin. A mouthless full-face mask that doesn't have a bunch of weird ninja folds in it. A mouthless full-face mask that doesn't have eye pupils in it. In fact - the masks should have two separate options - with or without pupil, and the eye itself should be colourable.
Don't make new spandex that is all over the top with too-busy patterns ala the new CoT. Just make high detail, high quality, BASIC spandex skins that can be used as a single-color foundation upon which other costume parts can be added. Integrate them with patterns that are more than just painted on, and you will have a winner. (Especially if you can make the patterns asymetrical.) And for the love of Mot don't make them too shiny!
Chainmail spandex would be good. As would scaly spandex. Hard rubber spandex. Metallic spandex. And also an improvement on the original spandex spandex.
Gloves in all the above options too. Would also like a flared glove to match the Baron boot from the magic pack as that is very comic booky.
Briefs in the above options would also be great. Especially with an option for skin or tights to cover the rest of the leg. Like this guy:
Some examples of this differint type of "spandex". (I have no idea why I'm calling it spandex when what I mean is "skin-tight costumes". Please forgive me.)
These options should be offered to masks too. So having a mask that is a different material to the rest of your face. Like this guy:
Also, let me make this guy. Spandex costumes that are low cut v-neck, vests (with stripes as an option). And a bandito mask:
Also a helmet like this:
Quote:Interestingly enough, we don't actually have any basic trim patterns for anything, either. Gloves, boots, and every cape except the Magic Cape don't have any basic trim options to go with them. It would be nice if we could design capes like this.
Quote:I didn't think of it at the time, but as long as we're throwing in hairstyles, too . . .
I would like to see something like Reed Richards, or the Kingdom Come version of Superman for the men. One of those hairstyles that screams (or politely interjects?) 'responsible adult' instead of punk rocker, emo kid, or scenester. While I've nothing against those styles, we've gotten a lot of them lately. Not all heroes are supposed to be in their teens/early twenties, after all.
Quote:A) revamped old school/spandex tights similar to the ones we already have (adding a few details like seams but still mostly plain)
B) modern tights (w/ ribbing, surface texture(s), subdivided surfaces) a la Ultimates 1 or Marvel movies
C) pieces we just haven't made before (e.g. domino mask)
What are you guys most interested in?
Quote:Masks:- Eye mask details that update what we have in our current library under full masks. This category has not been added to or updated since initial launch nearly 8 years ago now. And all of these should have been made available for "with hair" options years ago.
- Masks with white eyes as has been suggested above repeatedly.
- Adaptable details like a tie for the back of the head (tied on mask is very Golden Age versus a blend pull over mask)
- White. Something needs to be done about the white on masks for faces. It blends with skin as if it were a very thin white watercolor wash rather than opaque fabric.
- Keep the "painted on" look available for face masks but if possible update many of the mask textures we have to add a simple bump map or shadow of a seam around the edges
- Signature details and gimmicks (see category below for ideas) for foreheads and full masks--can be symbols or dimensional objects.
- Take a good look again at the super science goggles, especially in a full mask setting. This is a good starting point. Could use a few goggles like this that color well to blend with full mask colors and carry even more eye shapes: Cat eyes, sneering eyes, dot eyes, etc.
Tights:- Not painted on is good but as several posters above point out, just like the new tights you've included in i22, the cinematic textures--i.e. the scale or hightech weave fabric details all stray from classic comic looks. So just like the face masks getting help from a touch of texture just at the liminal edges where fabric then becomes skin, tights could use this minimal treatment.
- SIMPLE base tights for below patterns that take advantage of new tech introduced since launch:
- A base tights layer with a modest uniform glow to it using glow tech.
- A base tights layer with a modest uniform reflectance map to it using that tech.
- A base tights layer with a uniform reflectance map equal to that of the metallic skin.
- Some more "with skin" options for lower body tights for men.
- A female base skin with more defined musculature.
- A "cotton" base layer. "Smooth" works okay for this now. But the softer texture may benefit people trying to capture this look.
Patterns:- Some of these need to be uprezzed. Not changed. Just go back to the original art and get crisper lines. Many of the original tights patterns look like lo-res jpgs that got tripled in size and have all sorts of weird dithering artifacts.
- Take a good look at the radioactive chest and upper leg patterns. This is perhaps one of THE most silver agey of all the patterns in game. It fits what I go into below about gimmicks. It has a baked in symbol. It is very graphic. The lines are crisp. The areas of color are large and blocky. Too many of the post i4 or so tights patterns have too many fine areas of detail to qualify as GA or SA.
- Missing some basics like a good checker board pattern. Suits of cards patterns with some baked in symbols but room for a chest emblem. Question mark patterns.
- From prior threads I know big graphic asymmetric patterns are out of the question. But the game could use 'em if it were possible.
Boots and Gloves:- Taking a cue from above in case it is possible: a set of gloves and boots that are colored asymmetrically.
Edit to be clear: By this I mean left boot is color A while right boot is color B. Or a few very simple mirrored patterns such as the "fat stripe" pattern but inverted on each boot. - All the GA & SA type boots in game all date back to i0 (except the rubber boots and gloves from super science is adaptable at times). When you can, consider revisiting the boots and gloves with spikes, fins & folded. A geometry revamp (or new ones that fill some adjacent gaps designwise) of those with versions that are not overly textured would be appreciated IMO.
Gimmicks and Signature Items:- Most GA and SA characters, SA in particular, are built around a schtick. We need more generalized items that can be turned into dimensional face masks, forehead details, shoulder baubles, chest details, emblems worked into full tights patterns, etc. These items should not try to look realistic but instead should have a gimmicky logo feel about them.
- Some of these items we already have in one category or another, but I'm repeating things that could be made more symbolic where I think the in game ones try to convey a realism rather than a logo object. Try to think as each of these on a Venture Brothers hero or villain--pasted as an object to their forehead, turned into a uniquely shaped eye mask, neck brooch, etc.:
- Dice
- Dominos
- Leaves (not like the ones we have but a stylized oak leaf or two around the eyes)
- Heart
- Cross
- X
- Question Mark
- Smiley Face
- Bomb with fuse
- Fist
- Atom
- Spider
- Beetle
- Crab
- Bat
- Moon
- Sun
- Comet
- Ringed Planet
- Feathers
- Horseshoe
- 8-ball
- Numbers
- Infinity sign
- Swirl
All of the above (and more) could then be blended with the existing (and forthcoming) more "realistic" and less stylized pieces from other sets to create a range of signature looks allowing for a range of various heroes and villains from all eras of superhero comics.
- The suggestion above regarding all existing and future hats to have a no hair option allows any and all hat assets you make to do double duty as a hat and as a signature costume item. That pilgrim hat this past thanksgiving? Missed opportunity. With no hair for his, her and huge, anyone could have thrown that onto a plain-jane tights color combo and instantly they have a visual schtick with which to build a costumed character around.
Edit: Related to the final category of logo-like gimmicks and signature items: don't forget weapons sets when producing such assets. i.e. if you were to produce an big die that can go on the forehead, consider also putting a slightly larger version of that die at the end of a walking stick and giving it to mace sets or replacing the ball on the hilt of a blade with the die. Suddenly now you've opened up a range of new schticky classic comic book options for all "Lucky ______" characters. -
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Anyone tested Enzymes to confirm that they don't buff defense anymore?
What a crap bugfix. -
Olympian Armour set
Council vs 5th Column Arcs.
Adamastor Zone event.
Stalker buffs.
The above sound awesome. Not awesome enough to justify the complete destruction of Dark Astoria, but awesome nonetheless. -
Quote:Agreed. Completely.That did seem to be the mission of this Signature Story Arc in the beginning, but that's obviously not the turn it took. The reason? I don't want to get in trouble here, but I'm saying it, poor writing.
I'm not asking for multiple layers of depth and symbolism or anything like that. I'm just asking for an understanding of plot, characters, genres, and how to make the player feel number one. Also, for them to basically understand what makes the most sense.
The SSAs started with that question of Who Will Die? And it sent us to help Synapse.
The first SSA, in my opinion, was a trainwreck writing-wise. In an arc that is supposed to center on Synapse, we fight the Lost and the Minions of Igneous. Two villain groups so randomly plucked from nowhere that do not at all mesh with Synapse's story. He's a science hero, created by science and Crey Industries. He's having his powers sucked out...by an obelisk. A magic obelisk can suck out science powers? It is just lazy writing. If you want to create depth for your signature characters, so we care about saving them, working with them, and feeling on par with them, bring us into their story. Synapse is captured by Crey and the original doctor who experimented on him is trying to steal his powers back using some kind of device. It is in the same genre, it makes (comic-logic) sense, and it brings us into Synapse's story. Fighting the original Crey specialist who gave Synapse his powers would've been much more interesting than fighting through "random lost minions, circle of thorns, and bird-poo monsters" to get to an end goal and have Synapse say thumbs up to you.
Also, giving us Synapse's powers, while fun, annoys players like me who don't understand why the run speed cap for my speedster is so low.
The second SSA, we must help the quintessential magic heroine, Numina! Wow! Magic? Sounds like a good place to implement the Circle of Thorns, the Banished Pantheon, or any magic-driven villain group. OH WAIT NO. Let's just put in RULU-SHIN. Rularuu Ninjas. WHY!? That arc just becomes a mission to retrieve some dead guy's skull from a Rularuu-Ninja. You do it. Numina shows up and says "what's up, you found my dad's skull, thanks." If you want us to feel on-par with the Freedom Phalanx, have us fight WITH THEM, have us RESCUE THEM, or have us fight their ARCHENEMY. Fighting these random Rulu-Shin tells me nothing about Numina's story and is annoying because Rulu-Shin look like somebody hit random in the costume creator.
The third SSA, we're supposed to help someone, I think? I don't know. Manticore? He's in this one, we'll say this is his. But, we're no longer saving them, huh? We're just...I don't know, doing something unrelated to everything else. So we go to Warburg and fight Rogue Arachnos and stuff for some reason and then Statesman's daughter dies. Alright. What? Like...WHY put Rogue Arachnos into this at all!? If we're trying to explore Manticore's backstory in this while killing off Statesman's daughter, Arachnos is the obvious choice. Statesman and Recluse have a rivalry, Manticore has a history with them. Instead they use Rogue Arachnos and set it in Warburg for some reason. We find out one of the people behind this plot is Malaise (who is now dressed in a steampunk vest and pants as if to hammer home that superheroes and supervillains will no longer be in this game.) Seeing as the Calvin Scott TF's been gone for a while, might be a decent idea to explain who he is...
The fourth SSA, we're literally a gopher. We just run everywhere while the Freedom Phalanx argues. We're forced to say Posi is the heart of the Phalanx, we're forced to watch a scene in which Posi calls us tag-alongs even though we just saved Sister Psyche's mind.
The point is, the writing in this could've been done in a way that actually made the player feel like a hero. If that's what the objective was then they failed because of just plain old bad writing.
Also, as a final note. How many think these would've been better if we had one of the Freedom Phalanx as a contact? That in itself would make you feel on-par with them rather than a lackey for the Lost, or the f***in Luddites, or some random Longbow spec ops soldier, or some ghost, or some rogue fortunata, or some stupid red-brick faced dude in a suit.
There, yeah, the mechanics are part of the problem. But its also the writing. Don't be afraid to say it, ya'll. -
EVERY restriction?
I'd make a Kin/Kin and crash the servers -
Quote:I suppose I must be a 17 year old for saying "style" when what i meant was "fashion".What are you a 17 year old girl? lol out of style. But I do agree those patterns are lame and different fades/colors would I think be way better. But I was just assuming we could change the color like most other things or are these jeans on of those pre tinted costume pieces?
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The concept art for the Chinese Armour does look awesome.
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I'm looking for the part of your post that disagrees with "different fades/washes of jeans would grant greater player utility than a bunch of silly patterns."
Help me out. -
Evisu went out of style years ago, as did Ed Hardy. Mind you the jeans are bootcut to begin with so talking about style seems a bit pointless. Regardless, my point was that different fades/washes of jeans would grant greater player utility than a bunch of silly patterns. If you disagree with that click quote and explain why.
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[Insert usual gripe about lack of superhero costumes. Insert usual gripe about yet more armour. Insert new(!) gripe about marketing pushing Korean streetwear style clothing to a largely western audience.]
Idea for the jeans: rather than multiple jeans with silly patterns that no-one outside of Korea will use, why not have them in different dyes/fade. You could use the same model, but the skin would be different. You could have your raw denim indigo, aged denim, your worn skater denim, you torn up wannabe-abercrombie-but-actually-looks-hobo denim, bleached, etc. -
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Quote:I agree with your post, the point about over-correction especially, but I'm not so sure about the paragraph quoted above. I think you're right in saying the AT system is hypercritical when looking at the Freedom Phalanx. ("Come play city of heroes! be a hero! But not one that your familiar with! We've already got all those roles covered!Superman? Check! Ironman? Check! Flash? Check! Hey don't worry, you can be Booster Gold!") But I don't think this is the source of the problem though. Although it is certainly something the source of the problems makes all the more apparent.Everyone's characters are wish fulfillment to some degree. The problem is when you use your position to see your wishes are fulfilled better than other peoples. "MY Tanker is actually an offensive powerhouse. MY Defender can be armored. MY character can have swords and guns and regeneration. Everyone else, you get to watch them. Your character gets what we let them."
The source of the problem is, in my mind, that Matt Miller calls Positron his character. That's a warning bell straight away because it's attaching one man's ego to the lore of the game. As much as we like to think we can be impartial; when it comes to our vanity characters, we try to get away with as much as possible. We make this plot point focus on them, we give them this little bit of power, we stretch what they can do. All these little changes reach a tipping point when we realise that our vanity characters have become more powerful than everyone else for no apparent reason. It doesn't benefit the plot, or enhance the story to have Positron suddenly become this massively important/powerful hero. (If anything, it detracts from it.) It is something that is happening literally because Matt Miller is the lead designer. Everything we hear about Positron only mentions his good attributes. How boring.
And because he is being upsold with such gusto, the fact that the AT rules have been broken is his favour becomes all the more apparent. Him being overpowered in a game mechanical sense feeds into the rediculous lore surrounding him. Not the other way around. That's why I agree with you in part, although I differ to the route cause of the problem.
Positron right now is not a particularly well written character. He's a well designed character don't get me wrong. I've always liked the concept. And the progression through on of the comics I thought was awesome. But all this nonsense about him being the "heart" of the freedom Phalanx, a more important hero than Statesman, a hero I can "tag along" with, and all the rest, really just smacks of wish fulfilment. And let's be honest here; hyping Positron up as el supremo lessens the impact Statesman's death will no doubt have. It runs directly counter to the affect the game's story is going for.
How would I improve Positron's in-game portrayal?
I'd focus on Positron's weaknesses. I don't mean give him badass-qualities-disguised-as-weaknesses. No-one wants to hear about him being "sworn to be alone, but tougher because of it" or "He's lonely, but only because he's super duper smart!". A flawless character going through hardship is one no-one care about. Have him show insecurity at looking like a chemo patient, yet constantly amazed and excited about being human again. He could be "haunted" by memories of his past-self as a collection of energy particles to the point of mental trauma. He could be intensely sexually frustrated due to his powers not allowing him intimacy with anyone. (An excellent shoe-in for Numina, the ghost.) He could be a genuinely bad leader, a man more used to following orders than giving them. He could be agorophobic due to all the time he spent trapped in the armour. He could accidentally give his parents cancer. He might be a fantastic scientist, but utterly broken with aspergers or autism when it comes to social interaction. He might be scared of things. He might love certain things. He might hate certain things. And all of these things might be abnormal.
As for his role in the game world? By all means make him the new #1 hero. Just make him really bad at it. Bad enough, that he needs the player's help. This upsells the player, upsells Statesman ("I don't know how he managed to keep all these governmental bodies in check...they won't listen to me!), and makes Positron relatable. -
This is the problem with letting lead designers put their vanity characters into the gamelore: it just pisses people off. It happened with Statesman, now it's happening with Positron.
Not letting me complete SSAIV without my character saying Positron was more important than Statesman is lame and, in my opinion, completely incorrect. Positron saying you could "tag along" with him is lame. I've beaten him 1v1. Why shouldn't he tag along with me? Positron claiming he formed the Freedom Phalanx in the 80s is lame. Positron, a tech-based character, being the guardian of the flames of Prometheus is lame. Add to this Positron being a character Matt Miller shoe-horned into the game, and this entire thing smacks of wish fulfilment.
I know from personal experience that the writers in this game do not take criticism well. But please, enough with the vanity characters. The player character should be treated as #1. ESPECIALLY now that we have all these nonsense incarnate powers.