Zombieluvr
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:I agree with this, absolutely. I think FW is precisely the sort of "next step" that would have been a logical one to take in continuing the various Loyalist/Resistance arcs from GR, providing a very viable alternative to leaving for Primal Earth as the level 20 mission (you still leave, but you don't leave your own dimension wholly), even with the undercover options.Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
The GR stories are written so that by 20 everyone should either realize that invasion is a bad idea, but you might still be able to stop the conflict before it escalates, or that you just don't care. Since nothing ever mentions that choice ever again, I don't see why the dynamic couldn't have continued into FW.
That it didn't, except in a rather broad way, and that certain missteps are made (characters not recognizing you, some rushed writing in places), is disappointing, but I still think FW and NW are some of the better content in the game currently. -
I love First Ward and Night Ward, but they definitely do suffer from some discontinuity and excessive plot. By which, I mean that:
a) the stories don't strictly follow your actions as either a Loyalist or Resistance character in some areas, and some parts of the story seem to require your knowledge of what is going on in the Incarnate Trials (even though your character isn't yet an Incarnate; hasn't even necessarily left Praetoria, for that matter). I really wish they'd have been able to find a way to bring the throughlines of Resistance/Loyalist alignment stories into FW and NW, and while I understand why they didn't, I feel the zones would have been much richer for it.
b) As the OP notes, there are a lot of instances of "We need to get to the bottom of this" in both FW and NW, and the plot ends of taking the character in so many places, that some problems either are never fully explored, or else are wrapped up haphazardly right at the end with little actual problem solving involved. First Ward is really great, up until the third act (so to speak) when everything gets so rushed, it feels like it is all kind of thrown at the wall and left hanging. Some of that gets cleared up in NW, but even there, the final act feels so rushed that at least one of the problems that you first encounter there (the incursion of NW into both Praetoria and the Spirit World) just gets handwaved at the end. All better.
All said, though, I still love both zones and think they are some of the strongest content in the game. I have requested a couple of times to get an underground lab and black market in FW to make it a more independently sustainable zone, because I think it is just awesome.
I doubt it will ever happen, but I hope that they eventually provide some more story arcs in those two zones (they are certainly large enough, and rich enough in background to provide a lot of grist for the mill.) At the very least, I hope FW stuff makes it into AE so that I can do some stories there. -
As long as he can get the final rock toss in, shouldn't matter.
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Tyrant + Maelstrom = Bromance.
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Quote:By that rationale, Citadel is dead, then. He's sentient, aware, intelligent, but he doesn't have an organic body. I think that, in the world of Paragon at least, you'd have some difficulties proving such a being was dead, or had been murdered when they're still out walking around.Originally Posted by Rabid_M
No.
Given what we've seen of the Praetorian version of the Clockwork King, it's clear that he doesn't NEED an organic body to survive. He needs some kind of focus as his "body", but there doesn't need to be any life signs in it.
He's dead. He just doesn't realize it, and his power keeps his awareness intact and going. In a way, he's more like Numina's astral form, only less focused (thus the need for a host form) and FAR more powerful.
That being said, the fact that Blue Steel, a supposed paragon of law and justice, didn't turn himself in to be tried before a court of his peers and allow them to make the call whether he had committed any crime or not, is kind of a travesty. Even if no prosecutor would take the case (lack of evidence, only a confession, no victim filing complaints), it is the very least Blue Steel should have done. The fact that he apparently didn't, and doesn't seem to harbor much in the way of regret for his actions, makes him a rather unappealing "hero" to me. -
Quote:Technically, he's only an attempted murderer, right?Originally Posted by minimalist_NA
I wish people would bring this up more often. A murderer with a vicious temper walks the streets a free man, and he wears a uniform.
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Quote:I'm assuming she suited up again after being called back to service by Positron. Either that, or else she's just one of those people who is constantly reliving the old days.Originally Posted by Haetron
Wavelength was an interesting contact. Her design looks like something you'd see from ages ago, fittingly. If she's retired, Im kinda wondering why she is still in costume, and other than her contact info, I dont think its mentioned she's ex-phalanx.
Or Alzheimer's, if one is feeling cruel. -
He's waiting to see how well his movie does, first.
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Quote:It doesn't really matter whether the Talons believe anyone is innocent or not; if there is no malice in someone's heart for their corruption to work on, then they can't affect that person. It's one of the things that the Carnival of Light learns (to their dismay) in First Ward.Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
That would almost work, if not for the fact the Talons believe no one is innocent, coming up with arbitrary reasons to judge everyone at some point. And just because the thoughts of death, blood, and vengeance weren't directed at her doesn't mean they she wouldn't be disturbed by them. Penny is a villainess, playing us all for fools.
And one need only look at Praetorian Penny to see that she probably interprets things like blood, violence, and death as puppies, cotton candy, and rainbows.
"Right, Rusty?"
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I know what we should do with the Shadow Shard- make Firebase Zulu the new starting zone for Rularuu EATs!
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You don't buy that Penny is simply pure of heart (unlike the Fortunata), and therefore unaffected by the whisperings of the calls for vengeance and destruction?
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Quote:To be fair, your villain is the one approaching them.Originally Posted by Unknown_User
Honestly you have a up and coming new group that wants to rival Arachnos in controlling the Rogue Isles and as soon as you meet someone within that organization they propose a team up, and the way they propose it is by trying to massage your villain's ego mixed with the theme of 'we have a common goal' Sorry but warning bells would be going off in my head.
Played through both of these last night, and I absolutely loved them. As someone else said, best SSAs so far (they just keep getting better and better). Nothing really innovative like some of the previous SSAs in terms of tech and content, but a lot of really good story and a smooth progression. Only one grammar error that I spotted (a line in the Atta mission referring to Positron's cracked armor had a repeated word, IIRC); I hate being a grammar Nazi, but when I see the spelling and grammar errors, it is so jarring to me, but none of that here!
The dialogue was really well done, and some interesting new characters and ideas are introduced. I especially loved how both missions were very different (featuring similar stories and bosses, but not just mirror sides of the same mission), and how the villain's initial "contact" is basically just themselves being proactive, which has been a common complaint regarding villain content.
I like the new villain base- seeing a medi-bay there along with the other work has me hopeful that it will be a recurring locale for the villainside SSA#2. As others have noted, it's almost too bad that we are almost inevitably going to see our contact turn on us and have our shiny stuff taken away (like in the Protean clone arcs), but it will be interesting to see how/if that does happen, and what twist might be taken with it.
Cool that they kept the leveling so that my 50s were playing at full strength, and I liked having a companion on the final mission (although my choice, Citadel didn't show up to the party, but the villain side guy did- who would have thought the Sky Raiders were more reliable than the Freedom Phalanx? lol)
I'm feeling like a certain villain group is getting overplayed, but they clearly fit into things here.
Some things in particular that intrigue me going forward:
1) Who is the mysterious backer of the new villain group? Does he (at least he's referred to as a he) have some connection to Pandora's Box?
2) Is Pandora's Box connected to Prometheus? That it has ties to the Well is almost certain, given the mythology and the villains involved here. Mythologically, Pandora was married to Prometheus' brother, Epimetheus, so I think they must be bringing him in somehow (in fact, my first thought about things was that the villains were somehow empowered by the Flames of Prometheus).
Whoever wrote this- individually or collectively- did a really bang up job! -
Quote:I'd be curious to know that, too. I don't recall hearing that before.Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
Really? When's that mentioned?
As for the Praetorian version of Maelstrom, he wouldn't necessarily be anyone special, in any case. Praetorian Polstra didn't necessarily join the military, and even if he had, he wouldn't have a Maelstrom device to make him special (there were only two, from what we learn in Agent G's arc, and the other one was used in the creation/recreation of Noble Savage.) -
Percy Winkler's got some pretty lively armor in the Night Ward arcs. Maybe he stole it from your character (like he stole a lot of his power and things from the other Midnighters). That could be a reason your guy goes there.
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Quote:Nemesis, of course.Originally Posted by Cobra_Man
What advantage has actually been gained by taking him out of the game? Or to put it another way ... Who gains from Statesman's removal?
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Quote:Only if there's a cigar in it.Originally Posted by Vanden
Sometimes a police call box is just a police call box.
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Was Twinshot Ultimatum? Or was she "recruited" by Maelstrom after his defection to Praetoria?
She seems a little young and- frankly- green, to have been recruited for a hush-hush Black Ops organization that may very well have been responsible for initiating the Primal/Praetorian War.
It would be like making Flambeau a member of the Freedom Phalanx. -
I'm pretty sure she's a Praetorian, isn't she? She was first introduced (either actually appeared or mentioned) in one of the Praetorian arcs before she ever showed up in the "new" Atlas.
I think she also alludes to it in one of her story arcs, but I could be mistaken.
(I swear I asked a similar question back when the revamped Atlas first came out, but darned if I can find the thread anywhere.) -
Quote:So you're saying Ms. Liberty *is* her Praetorian counterpart?Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Ms. Liberty has already wiped out her family through manipulating her fall guy Darrin Wade, along with bringing about the death of the only psychic with enough experience to read her mind - BAB would be well advised to keep out of her way as she tightens her grip on the city, especially now that her plan to revive Red Widow as a distraction for Recluse and Arachnos has allowed her to withdraw several Longbow units from the Rogue Isles and redeploy them on the Paragon streets.
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Quote:Good question. I'm still unclear on exactly what/who/how the Black Knights are. I know their purposes, and from the description, they are apparently dead souls, so presumably Pendragon died at some point? (Maybe during the Hami Wars?)Originally Posted by Ultimus
Edit: Does leave the question, how did Praetorian Hero 1 end up in the Black Knights?
In any event, if you want to learn more about the Knights and Pendragon, you should play through Night Ward and Belladonna Vetrano's story arc.
Excalibur. Ms Liberty is currently in possession of it.Quote:Also what blade did Hero 1 in our world? -
Okay, after some replay (still more to come with that), some feedback from this thread, and some good old fashioned reasoning, here's the timeline as I'm currently figuring it:
1) PCs come to First Ward where they discover that a crisis has erupted whereby the Apparitions- semi-sentient personality fragments of psychics created by Mother Mayhem during the Seer process- have taken control of the Seer Network and are wreaking havoc in the already quite chaotic First Ward. Sorceress Serene, last survivor of the Ravenwing Cabal, has summoned the Talons of Vengeance to Praetoria, ostensibly so that she can get revenge on Tyrant and the rest of the Praetors who ordered the slaughter of her cabal. She has chosen First Ward as her first target, presumably due to the weakening of the barriers between the worlds of the dead and the living there.
Also, she wants to get revenge on Diabolique, and plans to use the Apparitions to this end (somehow; I'm still a little vague on the means there.)
Unfortunately, Serene fails to take into account two things: The extent of Percy Winkler's feelings towards Diabolique and the (slim) shred of goodness left in him; and the PCs. Serene ends up dead as a doorknob.
2) Meanwhile, back at the ranch, things are going sour for Tyrant in the Primal/Praetorian War. He's literally down to the dregs of his supporter barrel, and has to rely on Chimera and Black Swan as his final line. Knowing this, Chimera drags out some plans he'd hidden away In Case of Emergency, involving finding the legendary sword Excalibur in Night Ward. He sends Black Swan to retrieve it, since she's the one with the ties to that world (evidently the Shadow World she was formerly said to access is or is connected to Night Ward?)
Black Swan's ancient foes, the Black Knights, track her down to Night Ward to finally incarcerate her (for I believe unspecified reasons; although her being evil probably counts). Doubtless the Black Knights were tipped off to her traveling to NW by Chimera or Swan, considering that they'll need Pendragon there to retrieve Excalibur.
3) Serene finds herself stuck in Night Ward along with the rest of First Ward's dead, due to some metaphysical clusterhump that I believe is connected with that big ol' swirly pool of light hanging over the city. In any event, the dead can't leave, and it's causing the Drudges quite a bit of trouble.
(Side note, I don't believe we ever fix that problem, as I recall. We kind of get sidetracked into helping the Midnighters, and then the whole Lamashtu thing. I guess the dead can wait. Eternally.)
While she wanders aimlessly in Limbo, frustrated by her plan's failure, Serene stumbles across the Black Knights. Now- due to her connections with the Talons of Vengeance, she is aware of the story of Lamashtu and her imprisonment in the Eternal Prison. So she sees a new opportunity to get her plans back on track, and maybe even kick them up a notch. BAM!
4) Serene possesses the Black Queen, and uses her to manipulate the Knights towards her desired goal- the freeing of Lamashtu. When her manipulations- if not identity- are discovered, she arranges for the death of the Black King, taking over the Knightly Order (although not without some splintering), and- just because she's a bit vindictive, this one- she taunts Pendragon with some memories she picked up from Queenie's brain about the ill-fated love affair of the two. Then she goes off to complete her plan.
(Note that I think- and I haven't gotten to the replay of this part yet, so I'm not sure- I think her taunting also plays into manipulating Pendragon and the rogue Knights into helping her free Lamashtu, since there are some elements of the key that can only be attained by the PC and the rogue Knights.)
5) PCs once more foil Serene's plans. Darn you, you meddling kids!
6) Elsewhere, Black Swan resurrects Shadow Hunter, they locate Excalibur, and poor Pendragon is manipulated by another woman, but the PCs are able to help restore him.
So I'm mostly in agreement with the notion that it was pure happenstance that the BKs showed up in force in NW just at the same time Serene's ghost did. I still think the Queen's role was probably originally supposed to be Swan's, but this seems to be a decent enough explanation, though it lacks some specifics.
I'm still curious about these things, though:
1) Apparitions and the apparent change in interpretation of their role
2) The connection between the creation of new Talons and Night Ward (which was cool, but I'm unclear how/where it fits with Serene's plan)
3) The spirits of the Ravenwing Cabal and their connection to the storyline (which is coming up, so I'll pay better attention this time)
4) The reason behind the metaphysical toilet jam that is keeping the dead of First Ward from exiting Night Ward to the Great Reward Beyond. And why we didn't fix that problem, like we told poor overworked Taskmaster Carlyle we would.
EDIT: Actually, I guess Serene is responsible for #4, and we sort of fix the problem by beating her. Slow it down, at least. -
Quote:Definitely not disagreeing with you on this particular point.Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
It's possible that my mistaken way of remembering it makes more sense than the in-game version; in my opinion, it wouldn't be the first time.
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Quote:I don't think so, but I suppose it's certainly a possibility. She really doesn't have enough of an impact as a character in her own right that I'd think the devs planned for her to be anything but the pawn she is.Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
Is the Black Queen the Praetorian version of Lady Grey?
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Quote:As the story currently stands, yeah, I think you're right. It's a bit disconcerting- since the plan to revive Lamashtu requires a living body (which Serene didn't possess after FW), and that it is just such a long ranging plan requiring so many pieces to be in just the right place, that it seems a bit odd as a plan of circumstance.Originally Posted by Mekkanos
I checked the souvenir for the arc and it explicitly says that Serene's spirit possessed the Black Queen. This almost certainly started soon after she died at the end of First Ward. This likely means that the affair between the Black Queen and Pendragon was not part of any greater plan at the time, but simply worked in Serene's favor once she possessed the Black Queen. It also means that Serene didn't really have to do any extra work to infiltrate the Black Knights, since she simply possessed one of their leaders. It appears that she simply moved quickly once she gained control of the Black Queen.
That's why I think that the Black Swan was originally intended to fill that role. Admittedly, I ran Belladonna Vetrano's story arc on my 50 on Beta before I ran the NW arcs, so was already familiar with Black Swan and her connection with Night Ward, Pendragon, and Excalibur (and why I was incredibly surprised when the BQ turned out to be Serene, instead).
Frankly, though, the biggest thing that makes it questionable is how the BQ/Serene mocks Pendragon as having been a worthy lover, when that affair seems too far in the past for Serene to have been a part of. Black Swan could have been there, but I suppose it could be explained by Serene simply having memories of the BQ's affair, and using them to taunt him, rather than having actually experienced them herself.
Currently, I'm of the opinion that there are both things going on. There is that one mission for the Palatine where you actually encounter real ghosts (who, as noted, tell us that the Apparitions aren't actually dead ghost ghosts), so I'm guessing they're the ones we actually see wandering around Night Ward, and the Seers/Apparitions are... somewhere else. I mean, we still encounter some of them, but frankly despite going into Night Ward to find them (and Katie) we pretty much seem to stop caring once we've found Katie.Quote:I'm a little confused regarding the Apparations as well. I'm guessing the fact that all the Seers in First Ward's seer network were sucked into Night Ward might have something to do with why they're around in Night Ward and why they're in Mistress Maria's first mission but there does not appear to be anything concrete.
At the moment, I'm going to No-Prize it by saying that Katie freed the ones she could off-panel, while we went on to investigate the other goings on in Night Ward. -
Quote:I have to wonder if that wasn't the original plot, but they decided to change it to Serene in order to tie things in with First Ward, instead?Originally Posted by Zemblanity
This makes alot more sense than the Black Queen turning out to be evil Warwitch (at least that's what happened in the Beta, haven't played it on live yet). Brad, you should PM this post to Dr. Aeon, maybe he wouldn't mind changing it in a future patch.