Alabaster12

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tanks don't need taunt. They have gauntlet, taunt is a waste of a power pick unless you are going to use it as a holder for IOs...
(ducks)

[/ QUOTE ]

That may or may not be true but it doesn't matter because Tanks are an irrelevant AT that no one plays anyway.

*bomb shelter*

[/ QUOTE ]

Both scrappers and brutes are mathematically capable of achieving tanker level defense numbers with TO's while still being unstoppable killing machines capable of killing the bizzaro world team-up of statesman and recluse solo in a single hit. Why would anyone want to play a tank? They should just delete the AT and move on.

*hides behind a brute*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not as easy as just dumping SO's into a tank and calling it a day, but it can be done even on a budget.

[/ QUOTE ]

O_o;;

What kind of budget? Because I've not seen one that doesn't involve multiple Gift of the Ancients and Luck of the Gambler globals to manage it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gift of the Ancients is pretty cheep in my experience (at least on Freedom and Virtue where I've leveled my stoners). Even so 3 slotted swift will do wonders for your run speed... plus slotting other set bonuses with +run speed. Of the penalties the run speed was the easiest to overcome IMO. I think I originally only had 1 GoTA's, 3 slotted swift, and maybe 1 bonus +run from a set and was somewhere around 20+ run speed in granite.

There are a lot of full set options that will give you +rech that don't involve LoTG. Set bonuses plus hasten will get you a long way. It's been a while since I started collecting LoTG's but I think I easily was up to -28% rech before even a single LoTG without hasten up which is pretty reasonable for tanking. I had no clue what I was doing with that first stoner too so I'm sure if someone really tried they could get even better without a single LoTG.

Put it this way... neither one of my stoners had any other toons feeding them influence, and neither one ever ran a farm and both were able to overcome the penalties to be quite fun with just what they made on the way up.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, so I was thinking the other day and it seems like stone is almost pointless nowadays besides for pure cosmetics of the set.

With new sets these days like shield and WP, players can get good roundabout defense. Stone gives good defense with a little defense but it also greatly decreases the players speed (last I knew, this mighta changed).

In my mind the only redeeming factor is the granite armor. So I'm just wondering, is there something that I'm forgetting about stone that makes it really good or is it really just that stone defense is getting left in the dust by new and better sets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bite =D

Nothing in the game can approach or top a stone tank from sheer toughness. The closest is inv and even then it can't for more than 3 mins at a time with a brutal crash.

Is that necessary in the game? Probably not, but there are a large group of players that like being the toughest of the tough.

Re: The penalties. Wasn't there just another thread recently where the argument was that it was too easy to get past all of the penalties with IO's? You can get around virtually all of the penalties. It's not as easy as just dumping SO's into a tank and calling it a day, but it can be done even on a budget.

[ QUOTE ]
I replc Positrons Blast with Ragnarok's Just an idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't use purples. Ragnarok is 100 mil per on my server so 600 mil for one set I don't care what it is... not worth the cost IMO. I'll use almost any other set depending on the current prices, but I won't even bother looking at anything purple.

[ QUOTE ]
Alabaster I think we're agreeing on the issue, just not on the fix. Stone is out of whack. You see Granite as fine and the other powers as "broken" while I see the other powers as fine and Granite as "broken".

In either case, I think we agree that we'd like to see all of the powers in Stone work homogonistically (wow I just made that word up) rather than the current oil and water that we have now?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a perfect world where all resources and time can be put into all sets absolutely. I'd love to see the other toggles have some more utility than just adding a flat typed defense.

However given that resources are limited and other sets in the game need a lot more love than stone armor which is definitely playable (and even enjoyable as it was for me from 1-50, in that this was the funnest char I've leveled to 50) I think that it is "fine" as is. There are sets that have a lot more useless powers in them, but at the same time also have a lot less viability than stone and I think thats the only reason I disagree with fixing the limited problems in it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.

I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.

My issue with Stone is that in an attempt to make each Tanker primary as individualistic as possible, they (the devs) chose that to mean in mechanics as well as intent. Hence the only T9 powers that you absolutely *have* to take out of all the Tanker primaries to make the set work at high levels reasonably well.

Is this broken? Obviously not since Stone works as is and is even considered the best "tanking" set going.

Is it good design? Here I would argue no and I think this is the main area where people are throwing their opinions about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could argue though that a lot of sets have powers that you "have" to take. In particular a lot of the tanker sets have powers are mandatory it's just that this one happens to be at tier 9.

Inv is all but required to take ti, uy, and inv and I guess I have a hard time seeing the difference just because granite is at tier 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that UY, TI and Invince don't override eachother ... they compliment eachother.

Granite replaces all the toggles below it. That's bad design imo (my main beef aside from the lack of customization of the stone form itself)).

[/ QUOTE ]

But really as I was trying to say before the only toggle in my opinion that it replaces is rock armor which I think a lot of people still use even in a granite build. I wouldn't take brimstone or crystal even without granite. They just aren't very good powers and don't provide anything other than very specific typed defenses and nothing else. Minerals is very very specific but it is just a little more useful because having psi defenses is so rare in the game and there are a small handful of missions that are strictly psi. Even then, I probably still wouldn't take minerals either just because it provides nothing else but psi protection an that is very very situational.

It's the same reason I didn't like the auto powers in Inv before they buffed them only these cost end as well.

That isn't a problem with granite, that is a problem with the two (three if you count minerals) powers. Those armors don't complement each other, because typed defenses aren't needed unless you are facing that particular type of damage and that is literally all you get out of any of the armors in stone outside of granite.

That said... even then this isn't something that is unique to stone. DA has effectively the same problem only instead of having a hard limit that says that it can't run the powers at the same time, the end usage is so high that its counter productive to run them all.

In general I think it's a fair statement to make that a toggle that provides a specific typed defense and absolutely nothing else of value is a bad design.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.

I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.

My issue with Stone is that in an attempt to make each Tanker primary as individualistic as possible, they (the devs) chose that to mean in mechanics as well as intent. Hence the only T9 powers that you absolutely *have* to take out of all the Tanker primaries to make the set work at high levels reasonably well.

Is this broken? Obviously not since Stone works as is and is even considered the best "tanking" set going.

Is it good design? Here I would argue no and I think this is the main area where people are throwing their opinions about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could argue though that a lot of sets have powers that you "have" to take. In particular a lot of the tanker sets have powers are mandatory it's just that this one happens to be at tier 9.

Inv is all but required to take ti, uy, and inv and I guess I have a hard time seeing the difference just because granite is at tier 9.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the base stone build only matches this level of survivability without utility or damage boosts and such an insane investment is the true issue. The set should be much higher than that. As for the “granite fixes stone issues” the set should work without Tier 9s. The tier nine for armor sets is always meant to be a utility situational power with penalties or drastic pre-requirements built in (like death.) Granite can’t even claim to be open to interpretation there since it is so obvious it was meant to be full of penalties that even a blind man could see it.

That’s not to note no single power set should suck until it gets it’s 9th power. Regardless whether Granite is meant to be as is or not, the base Stone build should be much more survivable than it is, or bring a lot more utility and damage. Damage would require replacing powers and that wont happen. Utility MAY be possible but nowhere near enough to justify the low level it suffers now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why I didn't think "fixed" was the right word. It's more like that granite makes up for the pain previously experienced.

Re: granite "replaces" 4 powers... 2 of which most people don't even take (brimstone and crystal) and 1 of which is extremely situational in minerals. I will give you rock armor... but if for some reason granite was removed from the game but the set was left exactly as is... I STILL don't think I would take either brimstone or crystal. I know that's not what you were saying, but to me it's less of a problem that granite is good, and more of a problem that these two armors are so bad.

It would be interesting to me to know how many players completely respec out of rock armor after level 32, and who keeps it. My guess is most keep it for soloing and small groups, but it would be an interesting data point.


As far as the numbers vs FA...
Even with an IO build that negates a large portion of the penalties in granite I still run rock armor, tough, weave, rooted while soloing and in small groups.

I think it's hard to deny that granite provides utility. It gives players an alternate set of toggles to run solo or in a smaller group and that to me is a lot more valuable than the extra damage or regen in FA.

In FA if you are solo'ing and you bite off a bit more than you can chew you have a much higher risk than a stone armor tank that can simply turn on granite and will likely live and will have time to both regen and recover. Solo I look at granite like unstoppable without the crash, and with lower attack values. I know on my stone tank I can take significantly more risk soloing than I can on some of my other tankers because if I happen to ride too close to that edge I can always flip that switch and be unkillable.

Just the same I don't disagree that more utility out of the armors (mostly brimstone and crystal) would be nice, but those kinds of powers are in a lot of sets, and in particular a lot of tanker sets outside of stone armor need a lot more tlc than stone IMO.

Is it running out of end?

You do need to slot an end reducers into it so that it won't blow away all of it's end with it's attacks. If memory serves this only was really needed after the 2nd upgrade, but can't remember if it was also necessary after the first one.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm generalizing. Of course nobody should be expected to do insanely difficult tasks alone. But if a stone tank can't make it through a normal mission because they don't get speed boost, then the tank is the problem. It is either a poorly built or poorly played tank. Perhaps saying they are bad players is a little harsh.

I'm starting to get the impression that you're talking about difficult situations, while I'm talking about normal gameplay. If that is correct, then I think we are both right.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is entirely possible.

One of the only reasons I continue to play this game is for the extreme challenges, and it's the main reason the character I spend the largest amount of time on is my stone tank who is capable of doing those extreme challenges.

To me though this game isn't nearly as fun unless I'm doing harder missions the entire way up and struggling at least a little bit. Steamrolling content that is too easy ends up feeling more like statbuilder than anything to me and gets boring. Basically the MA is a godsend...

In the context of what I think you're talking about I think I can concede that you're right that no buffs are "needed".

In the context of the way I play the game though buffs are needed, I just don't care as much which ones as a lot of people seem to (ie... needing healers, sb, and who knows what else that a lot of pugs seem to think are required)... and I also won't fault someone for either not taking or giving a buff that is as much of a pain in the butt as SB is.

[ QUOTE ]
(QR)

Here are issues I think exist with Stone:

Out of granite, the set performs at best at the same level as the baseline Fiery Armor build (no pools) only trading the Fire superiority for Psi superiority, Psi being less common type than Fire.

To do this, Stone requires 7 powers, 8 if you want the taunt aura. Each power uses a minimum of 3 slots, Earth Embrace uses 6. Thats 7 powers+24 slots.

Fiery Aura uses 4 powers to do so, and 3 slots them all for exception of Healing Flames, that it six slots. This is, mind you, if he wants to cover cold to it's max, if he neglects cold he uses 3 powers. I also can have the taunt aura.

So fire armor gets, tops, 4 powers and 15 slots to do the same mitigation as stone out of granite, plus it gets all those cool tools like endurance drain, Fiery Embrace, bonus damage aura and Burn.... OK ignore burn.

The point? Stone out of granite performance is sub par at best without any single bonuses and requires insane amount of effort to build without any true rewards. On the other hand, it suffers additional penalties that prevent it from running hover or combat jump for additional defense, plus a horrendous mobility penalty that includes the forced de-toggling of status protection to actually do any non-tp movement.

And then Granite.... Granite who's people complaints are not it's penalties but on the other hand how easy it is to get over most if not all the penalties without having to sacrifice survivability.

Whoever says that set has no issues in face of people noting them is the child trying to talk to adults, either that or he just has vested interests and is afraid of stone being reviewed as it would, as a minimum, mean measures set so that Granite's penalties can't be worked around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with you that the set has issues. Pre-Granite it most definitely has issues, I just see those as being "fixed" post-granite. Maybe fixed isn't the right word... I think I'm looking more for... made up for post-granite.

I also don't think it's nearly as bad as a set like dark armor is at the moment. A set with an extreme overkill of endurance usage I think should be much higher on the pedestal than stone. At least stone has viability out of the gate. Some of the tanker sets have a lot less viability without having large IO investments.


Edit: By Pedestal I mean higher on the pecking order for changes.... not that it should be a tougher tank.

Maybe I should quote what I was responding to again because you seem to think I'm making this up out of thin air. These are your words:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying somebody is dumb or hopeless, just that relying on other people to be able to play your character shows a lack of skill and understanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lack of skill and understanding because your depending on other people to be able to play your character? Everyone who teams in this game depends on other people to be able to play their character. Sure some classes solo through to the ends of the earth and manage completely on their own... but in a team environment everyone is dependent on everyone else.

[ QUOTE ]
If you need an outside buff to function, then you are a bad player. That means basic functionality. If you can't run normal missions without somebody else giving you a certain buff, then you aren't very good at this game.


[/ QUOTE ]

I mentioned a bunch of "specific situations" as you said where people need specific buffs and raised the question of whether you thought the people in those situations were 'bad' players and you then said that wasn't what you were talking about... It sounds and sounded exactly what you were talking about to me, unless you just didn't want specifics in which case I guess I can just fade out of the conversation.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.

[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I NEED it on my stone tank? Absolutely not... I built my char with the idea that a kin wouldn't always be available and therefore have a good IO build setup that gives me +run and +rech to the point where I can get by without it. Is it nice when given, absolutely. While leveling did I always have the extra set bonuses I have now... and potentially needed a kin to manage everything on high performance teams. Yes I did at one point otherwise I couldn't guarantee I would hold everything.

Assuming every single stone tank in existence has both the knowledge and currency available to offset the penalties enough to not NEED SB otherwise they are a 'bad' player is just as bad as the people who claim that if you have sb and don't use it on every single person in the group at all times you are a 'bad' player.

You can't have it both ways and claim that just because its your char and you build it your way doesn't make you bad as a kin, but then fault another class for doing the same. Particularly when it's a hell of a lot harder and more expensive to properly build a stone tank that doesn't need outside buffs than it is to either select and use sb, or don't.

Please keep in mind, I feel for the kins. They are demanded to give buffs and as a former defendaholic I fully understand what that is like. I am fully appreciative of them and always say thank you when they are able to fit sb for me into their attack cycle. I would never demand a kin buff me, or kick one just because they were in my group and either didn't have sb or didn't use it.

[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. If you(general you) need a certain buff to be able to play your character, you are a bad player. I mean it. I'm not saying somebody is dumb or hopeless, just that relying on other people to be able to play your character shows a lack of skill and understanding.

If you(again general you) can't play your stone tank because you don't get speed boost, you are the problem. There is nobody else to blame

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call a stone tank with no IO's at all who was trying unsuccessfully to tank the STF that doesn't have granite a "bad" player? What if they just don't like using the power?


Is it wrong to say that any character needs buffs?

What about if a blaster "needs" adrenaline rush after a nuke otherwise they aren't going to be doing as much damage.

What about a tank that doesn't have enough defense/resist due to either the AT or their build and therefore "needs" bubbles/sonic/etc to be able to handle a specific AV.

What about any character when doing an MA mission with a lot of extreme aoe damage (spines for example)? What if those characters "need" buffs/heals/support in order to survive in any melee range at all.

Do all of these things mean bad players or should we just expect every character in the game to be able to handle any content at all without help?


Do people truly NEED SB or they will skip the content? Absolutely not, but you cannot say in this game you can do everything available without the help of support AT's unless you go to the absolute extreme of decking out a character and have selected a very specific set of powers.

The large majority of players will require support help which is great because there is an entire AT devoted to helping their allies in one way or another. Needing that help doesn't make you bad.

Trying to force a kin who doesn't want to use sb to use it is absolutely wrong and irritating, I agree (which is why I don't do it)... but claiming that someone is bad because they don't need help in the form of buffs is equally the sign of a bad player.

I can only suggest what I've got experience with... which is on my stoner who is level 50 I took Pyre and am very happy with it.

I got char... which I never use and haven't slotted at all.

Melt Armor... which I put a set into. I think it has 5 of Analyze Weakness.

And Fire Ball... which I have 5 Positrons Blast in.

Disclaimer: All of this is just my opinion.

Well... to start...

Stone in PvP can be pretty rough.

If you stay in granite:
You won't be able to be killed but everyone will know that and just avoid you completely (at least in my experience). You also won't be able to catch anyone at all so basically you just sit there while everyone else ss's around and has fun.

If you stay out of granite:
You will be a lot squisher than most other tanks unless you do a pretty crazy build.


Solo it is workable, but it won't be nearly as fast as say fire/ or shield/ or even wp/. Solo you probably won't be running granite which means your survivability will be slightly weaker than an average other tanker.


In large groups you won't die post 32. Granite pretty much makes you an invincible character and people will ask for you specifically for the super difficult content in the game. While granite isn't by any means the only tank that can do the content it is the one people look for first.

If you aren't aware already stone is unquestioningly the toughest tank in the game. The price you give up for that are some pretty extreme penalties if you don't plan on them. You will move slower, and be unable to jump or fly for almost the entire career of your toon while in combat. After 32 you will also get a god mode power (granite) but the price will be the same movement penalties, combined with a very large recharge penalty and a damage penalty.

Hope that helps.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm so tired of hearing players claim its their "job" to give out SB...heals... or whatever. Their 'job' is to play their toon to the most fun for that player. Just because I have empathy on my toon, doesn't mean its my 'job' to do anything for you. Just as a kinetic's 'job' isn't purely to be around for YOUR personal booster. I hate when stone tanks invite me to the team purely to be their personal speed boost. Screw that. I'm not there FOR you, ever. Players should appreciate when another player boosts them at all. Its not their RIGHT to get it.

I know if I ever played with the OP.. not only would I NOT give him SB.. but I would tell everyone Iknew to be sure not to. I would never want to play with such a jerk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you misread my post or something because I didn't think I was saying that at all. In fact I was just saying I thought they were being a hypocrit for saying a stone tank was being a 'bad' player when they were mad at others in this very thread for calling them 'bad' when they didn't sb an entire group.

If you actually read my entire post I actually specifically said I was always appreciative when a kin gave me sb... never asked for it... and would never dream of kicking a kin who didn't have or use it.

[ QUOTE ]
Tough let's you skip Stone Skin (though SS is still handy out of Granite), and Weave & a few IOs lets you hit S/L def cap running Rock (and psi cap w/Minerals), which in turn lets you stay out of Granite a whole lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely with everything else but I've always found getting my S/L cap with granite with just stone skin is much better. I still take tough, but not having the extra end usage of another toggle certainly helps, and having more powers that give you +res for the great IO's you can get is never a bad thing. Of course weave is the jewel of the set and is what gives you 40+ def to all with granite running out of the gate before you get any IO's at all.

As you said outside of granite it also makes you that much more survivable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.

[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I NEED it on my stone tank? Absolutely not... I built my char with the idea that a kin wouldn't always be available and therefore have a good IO build setup that gives me +run and +rech to the point where I can get by without it. Is it nice when given, absolutely. While leveling did I always have the extra set bonuses I have now... and potentially needed a kin to manage everything on high performance teams. Yes I did at one point otherwise I couldn't guarantee I would hold everything.

Assuming every single stone tank in existence has both the knowledge and currency available to offset the penalties enough to not NEED SB otherwise they are a 'bad' player is just as bad as the people who claim that if you have sb and don't use it on every single person in the group at all times you are a 'bad'
player.

You can't have it both ways and claim that just because its your char and you build it your way doesn't make you bad as a kin, but then fault another class for doing the same. Particularly when it's a hell of a lot harder and more expensive to properly build a stone tank that doesn't need outside buffs than it is to either select and use sb, or don't.

Please keep in mind, I feel for the kins. They are demanded to give buffs and as a former defendaholic I fully understand what that is like. I am fully appreciative of them and always say thank you when they are able to fit sb for me into their attack cycle. I would never demand a kin buff me, or kick one just because they were in my group and either didn't have sb or didn't use it.

You can get to a reasonable run speed with granite or rooted. I'm sure you can probably build up enough run speed for both of them at the same time but I'm not entirely sure it is worth the other area's you probably end up lacking in as a result. It's pretty rare to need both rooted and granite at the same time as a tanker and even then you probably don't need to move when you have both.

I waited a while in my build to get hasten but you're probably going to want it before granite. I was so end hungry before granite that I really couldn't afford to run hasten all that much but mileage may vary.

I would also recommend getting the fighting pool for tough and weave pre-granite. I hang on to them post granite as well but that is a personal preference to just how insanely difficult to kill you want to be. They also are great places to mule IO's since really the only thing you need to run is weave after you get granite (as long as you keep stone skin and slot it a little bit).

Hope you enjoy it. My stone tank was the funnest char I leveled up.

Agreed on minerals. Through set IO's I think I have somewhere around 20 defense and around 25 dam resist to psi while still keeping a granite build. While this isn't great by any means it is enough for those specific psi missions particularly when usually there are enough various defender/controller's along for the ride to make up the difference.

It certainly is a useful power for strictly psi damage enemies, but those are few and far between and its good enough for me to just have an alt build ready to go for it if I ever did actually need it rather than try to put it in a build where I'm not going to use it 99% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm.. Maybe I wasn't clear on my intent.

I'll have one offense build and one defense build. The defense build won't be hard to plan out at all. It's the offensive one that I'm having trouble with.

My original was a level 24 Stone/Fire. I had Mudpots the first attack (unslotted) and at 24 Combustion. That was the problem. I couldn't do any damage with no attacks, but I didn't know what to leave off as far as defense went.

Is the regen in Rooted enough to offset the damage from fire and energy for 20 levels?

Could I make a make a viable stone scrapper running just Rock Armor and Rooted until Granite? If I found myself on a team, I switch over to the provoke bot mode, I'm just wondering how survivable I could be running minimal armors.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been a while since I started my stone/fire, but if I remember correctly I took scorch, fire sword and combustion (I eventually respec'd out of fire sword after getting FSC, and incinerate).

For the primary I think I took rock armor, rooted, earths embrace (earths embrace is key by the way... you WILL take damage prior to granite, and this is one of the most important ways you offset it), mud pots... and that was about it. I never took brimstone, crystal or minerals except on my alt build to try them out. I took stone skin, but I can't really remember where after respec'ing so many times.

I also took tough and weave fairly early on and slotted them up. This probably more than anything is what got me through to 32... S/L is really what you need in those early levels and the other armors while great against their types aren't really helping all that much pre-32.

Once I got granite I kept tough, weave and stone skin for the great spots to mule some IO's, but I took a few slots out of tough, and just ran weave with granite.

I respec'ed quite a few times leveling this char up, it really did seem that I could make a build up, but that it wouldn't permanently be good (moreso than the other chars that I've leveled to 50), but I had the veteran rewards to use up so I just kept tweaking it until I got what worked.

[ QUOTE ]
I made the suggestion knowing there is no way they will completely remove it from the set. We might be able to convince them to move it but they will never remove it.

Its like the ridiculous -5% def Unyielding had. If they belived that was significant enough that they could not possibly get rid of it there is no way in hell we could convince them to completely abolish the slow in rooted. The best we could hope for would be for it to be moved.

Idealy I would like to see it removed from rooted entirely. My suggestion was a comprimise.

Also I respect that those of you who leveled the toons will know more about them than I do. I leveled a Stone tank to 26 or so a few years ago. I DESPISED having a mez protection that completely comprimised my movement. It was the ONLY reason I deleted the character. I didnt have any insurmountable surviveability issues. I just hated having to kill my movement or use break frees. With the ability to convert inspirations it might not be so bad now.

Now having said that I respect that you people leveled your stoners up I would like to add that I am not a complete novice to the lower level armors. I do run SF's and exemp down and I have played a low level tank in the past. So far in my experiance if I need granite I need rooted as well. I have run alot without granite though.

After all since I am playing a brute who does not get that till 38 that means almost every SF in the game I have to run without granite. I can still manage those so I do not think the lower armors need a buff however I also do not think that the speed penaltie is justified. Many of you say that you can overcome that with set bonuses. How many people under 20 do think are going to be able to afford those set bonuses just to make their character fun to play.

I cannot tell you how many people I have known who have played a stoner up, tank or brute, got rooted, played for about 2 more levels and then said "screw this".

The simple fact is there is only one problem with the set. That is the run speed debuff in rooted. It is completely over the top and is the "game breaker" for most people. The rest of the set is fine and in balance with others. Even the uber Granite is balanced. You take some very severe penalites for it and many times when I do not have a kin I would not run it. . . . except I have to run rooted anyway so I might as well have it on too.

I could spend a ton on run speed set bonuses to be marginally manuverable, or I could spend them where I have and have soft capped defenses. Might be able to do both if I was a tank but Im not so I had to choose. I can live with teleporting around, my favorite travel power anyway, but I certainly wouldnt say no to losing the speed in rooted. Granite would become the emergency armor that I think it was intended to be at that point.

Also as I pointed out I think a stoner might be viable in pvp if they got rid of the - speed of rooted and allowed super speed with it. Still disallowing it for granite. You would need to take, or have someone else with -fly powers but it would be feasible. As is now if I see a stoner in pvp I laugh and move on. You used to be able to use tp foe with a stoner but thats borked now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a big part of your pain is that you are playing a stone brute instead of a tank.

I don't need to run rooted as a stone tanker to survive. You are pretty well on your way to have capped with both res and def to everything but psi with granite, stone skin and weave as a tanker. With just granite the run speed isn't horrible, and is even better if you 3 slot swift. With rooted and granite I agree both are pretty bad, but it is extremely rare to need both on a stone tanker, and if the situation is that bad it's usually an av or something which I don't need to be moving around all that much anyway. As I said I pretty much save rooted for the super baddies which there are only a few in the game that can get past caps to everything.

If I remember rooted has a much higher -run than granite does, which should probably be changed. While not needing to have it removed completely, lowering the base -run in rooted I think would be a reasonable step to make.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed completely about needing sets. A granite tanker without sets is virtually useless. You won't be able to move, attack with any frequency, and when you do actually attack you won't do much damage. You can mitigate that with even cheap IO's, but you do need at least the cheap ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to completely disagree with this; I leveled my Stone/Fire to 50 in issue 7... long before IO's and he was perfectly viable as an SO build... I tanked several STF's with him once issue 9 hit on that SO build. While IO sets obviously are helpful they aren't at all critical, movement is handled by TP and the attack issue by slotting recharge and taking several attacks. I never had any problems pre-IO's, and I wasn't chained to a Kinetic either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking more about what the OP was asking about... which was being able to do dmg. Trying to do damage while in granite isn't going to work. Tanking is easy with a stone armor no matter what you do post-granite. As long as you can hold agro (which is pretty easy) you can tank with stone. Having it do any kind of damage is where you need sets to offset the penalties.

Agree about the run speed thing.

I run at about 25-30 mph with just granite which is respectable enough to not even need to worry about teleporting unless I want to. I frequently just run granite unless its against a really tough av, or I have double kin's (which oddly enough has happened a lot lately).

With granite and rooted I run at like -3%... I would definitely not support giving this same penalty to just granite.

Agreed completely about needing sets. A granite tanker without sets is virtually useless. You won't be able to move, attack with any frequency, and when you do actually attack you won't do much damage. You can mitigate that with even cheap IO's, but you do need at least the cheap ones.

As for secondary I'm very partial to /fire. Having multiple aoe's makes it a lot easier to handle not having great rech while you build your sets up. You can teleport in, cast build up, combustion, FSC, and then should have everything on you for at least a little while. It also has a decent single target attack chain. The downside is until you get granite you don't have any extra mitigation in your secondary to help you out. Those 32 levels are a big struggle.

I've tried stone/energy and it was painful, and difficult to deal with the end usage and slow attacks.

Ice seems to be more of the set that deals with mitigation which might be nice pre-32 if you're having trouble, but post-32 it won't be as useful.

SS might work, and having rage would be nice to offset the damage penalty of granite, but you would only have 1 aoe attack.