Arbegla

Look at your own math there Thinkso:

Those bolded numbers are identical, thus, once you hit 4 defenders, its better to run with more damage, then to add more defenders to the mix.

This will all be under the assumption that survivability is no longer an issue, due to outside buff/debuffs on a team environment.

While you did cherry pick your powers, stating its the best from both sides, lets take a moment and look at the bigger picture.

For example, the Most AoEs you can get out of a blaster is probably a rad/fire/levi or fire/fire/levi build. Lets see the math behind the fire/fire/levi, assuming the damage cap, and factoring in the target cap as well. I will be adding in the t9 nukes, due to the fact that merely popping a blue, and hitting 'consume' will refill your end bar, and by the time you burn through it again, your recovery is back.


Following Paragonwiki equation for figuring out damage caps found here-> http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Damage
The math will go like this:
(base) * (damage cap) = X * (target cap) = X * (.95, chance to miss) = total AoE damage.

For Damage auras, it will be on a damage per tick basis.

Radius math will merely use the (pi)r^2 to figure out the ft^2 of the blast radius.

Fire/fire/levi:

Fireball -> 78.8 * 4 = 315.2 * 16 = 5,043.2 *.95 = 4,791 damage in 706.86ft^2 Sphere
Fire Breath -> 109.8 * 4 = 439.2 * 10 = 4,392 * .95 = 4,172.4 damage in 418.88ft^2 Cone
Rain of Fire -> 125.1 * 4 = 500.4 * 16 = 8,006.4 * .95 = 7,606.08 damage in 1,963.49ft^2 Sphere
Inferno -> 472.2 * 4 = 1,888.8 * 16 = 30,220.8 * .95 = 28,709.76 damage in 1,963.49ft^2 Sphere
Combustion -> 83.4 * 4 = 333.6 * 10 = 3,336 * .95 = 3,169.2 damage in 706.86ft^2 Sphere
Fire Sword Circle -> 99.5 * 4 = 398 * 10 = 3,980 * .95 = 3,781 damage in 314.16ft^2 Sphere
Blazing Aura -> 11.1 * 4 = 44.4 * 10 = 444 * .95 = 421.8 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Consume -> 44.5 * 4 = 178 * 10 = 1,780 * .95 = 1,691 damage in 1,256.64ft^2 Sphere
Burn -> 132.4 * 4 = 529.6 * 5 = 2,648 * .95 = 2,515 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Hot Feet -> 13.9 * 4 = 55.6 * 10 = 556 * .95 = 528.2 damage in 1,256.64ft^2 Sphere
School of Sharks -> 58.5 * 4 = 234 * 10 = 2,340 * .95 = 2,223 damage in 654.5ft^2 Cone
Bile Spray -> 75.1 * 4 = 300.4 * 16 = 4,806.4 * .95 = 4,566.08 damage in 942.48ft^2 Cone

12 AoEs total, 2 of which are damage auras, with 3 Cones, 5 PBAoE, 1 Ranged AoE, and 1 Targeted AoE

Now, onto the a Scrapper with the most AoEs, lets see, Spine/fire/dark it is.

The values I'm taking for the base damage are straight from Mids, which already factors in the average crit damage per attack.

Spine Burst -> 82 * 4 = 328 * 10 = 3,280 * .95 = 3,116 damage in 706.86ft^2 Sphere
Quills -> 10.3 * 4 = 41.2 * 10 = 412 * .95 = 391.4 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Ripper -> 167 * 4 = 668 * 5 = 3,340 * .95 = 3,173 damage in 38.48ft^2 Cone
Throw Spines -> 100 * 4 = 400 * 10 = 4,000 * .95 = 3,800 damage in 706.86ft^2 Cone
Blazing Aura -> 13.8 *4 = 55.2 * 10 = 552 * .95 = 524.4 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Consume -> 25 * 4 = 100 * 10 = 1,000 * .95 = 950 damage in 1,256.64ft^2 Sphere
Burn -> 133.5 * 4 = 534 * 5 = 2,670 * .95 = 2,536.5 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Rise of the Pheonix -> 664.3 * 16 = 10,628.8 * .95 = 10,097.36 damage in 1,963.49ft^2 Sphere
Torrent -> 28.8 * 4 = 115.2 * 10 = 1,152 * .95 = 1,094.4 damage in 942.48ft^2 Cone
Night Fall -> 35.2 * 4 = 140.8 * 10 = 1,408 * .95 = 1,337.6 damage in 628.32ft^2 Cone
Tenebrous Tentacles -> 67.3 * 4 = 269.2 * 10 = 2,692 * .95 = 2,557.4 damage in 418.88ft^2 Cone

11 AoEs, 2 of which are damage auras, 4 Ranged Cones, 1 Melee Cone, 3 PBAoE, and a self rez PBAoE power, which is slotted with 3 level 50 dam IOs but if otherwise unaffected by damage buffs, due to having to use it while dead.

It looks like the fire/fire/levi Blaster, assuming survivability is no longer an issue, will clearly out damage a spine/fire/dark scrapper, due to increased number of AoE, larger radius, and higher target caps.

Now, I know what your about to say, that once those AoEs are thrown, there's always a boss left over, and I will completely agree with you. Still focusing on the fire/fire/levi and the spine/fire/dark lets take a look at their single target damage, which would be used to take out the remaining bosses after the AoE volley tears up the minions and LTs in the group. I'm going to assume that the AoEs have taken about 50% off the bosses total hitpoints for this explanation, which is about right, considering chances to miss, and target caps being hit.

Fire/fire/levi Single target damage break down, still maintaining the damage cap:

Flares -> 63.2 * 4 = 253.6 damage, from 80ft away
Fire Blast -> 92.6 * 4 = 370.4 damage, from 80ft away
Blaze -> 188.9 * 4 = 755.6 damage, from 40ft away
Fire Sword -> 131.2 * 4 = 524.8 damage, melee range
Knockout Blow -> 198 * 4 = 792 damage, melee range

Spine/fire/dark Single target damage break down, still maintaining the damage cap:

Barb Swipe -> 63.2 * 4 = 253.6 damage, melee range
Lunge -> 88.8 * 4 = 355.2 damage, melee range
Impale -> 137.9 * 4 = 551.6 damage, from 40ft away
Dark Blast -> 71.9 * 4 = 287.6 damage, from 80ft away

And it still looks like the fire/fire/levi blaster can pull ahead of damage in the single target area. So comparing the 2 best case scenarios of AoE happy powersets, with single target chains to clean up the leftovers, when survivability is no longer an issue due to buff/debuffs, the blaster pulls ahead.

While your correct that those powers at base, do as much damage as a blaster at base, your not factoring in the higher damage cap that a blaster does, which is 100% higher then a defender/corruptor. Which actually makes Thinkso's math more correct, accounting for all instances. And while Ice Storm and Blizzard do the same damage on a defender/corruptor as on a blaster, the other powers in that set, to much less then on a blaster.

Blasters Defenders Corruptors
Ice Bolt 62.6 36.1 41.7
Ice Blast 102.6 59.3 68.4
Frost Breath 87.6 50.6 58.4
Aim 37.5%/62.5% 50%/50% 42.5%/42.5%
Freeze Ray 6.26 3.61 4.17
Ice Storm 116.8 116.8 116.8
Bitter Ice Blast 142.6 82.4 95.1
Bitter Freeze Ray 82.6 47.7 55.1
Blizzard 500.5 500.5 500.5

Thats all base numbers, being pulled from Mids, and not factoring in the higher damage cap blasters have, which when thrown on a team with 1 kin, will be able to hit pretty easily.

Actually, caps are pretty easy to hit. One kin defender, and everyone is damage capped, one FF and everyone is basically softcapped. Add anything else to that equation, and its much more effective to add a straight damage dealer, due to the fact the buff/debuff will usually be busy buff/debuffing, and unable to purely focus on damage. Plus blasters have higher damage scales, and higher damage caps then most other damage ATs.

I do like how you completely skipped over this post. And in regards to just 'goto aggressive' good luck doing it on anything post 0/1 and not having to resummon after each fight. Mastermind pets are not just a lower level then the mastermind (the tier 1 pets being -2 to the mastermind) but they have really low hitpoints, and outside of serious amounts of buffing (i/e bot/traps or bot/FF) its basically impossible to softcap without outside help from another AT. At which point its better to just add a PC controlled blaster to the mix, as the buff/debuff from the mastermind is also benefiting the blaster as much as the mastermind itself.

Your completely disregarding any pros to blasters and only focusing on the negatives, which is entirely the wrong way to look at the situation. Blasters bring about ranged damage, with enough utility to keep themselves alive solo to accomplish that job, and enough pure damage on a team to steamroll just about anything in its way.

Forcemultipliers only go so far. Once you start hitting higher caps on things, its MUCH more efficient to add a pure damage class then it is to add any other form of debuff/buff.

Here's a pretty simple example for you. Say you have a minion 100ft away, and you have an SO slotted Scrapper, and an SO slotted blaster. Who kills the mob first?

Take that same minion, and put it 5ft away. Who kills the mob first?

Now change that minion to a LT, who kills it first at 100ft, and at 5ft.

Do the same with a boss.

Everytime that blaster will be able to kill said mob at 100ft more often then the scrapper, and that scrapper will be able to kill said mob at 5ft more then the the blaster.

That is the strength of the blaster AT, the ability to attack at range, and abuse that to his advantage, which you (both Thinkso and Another Fan) have completely disregarded.

First it was Scrapper > Blaster, now its MM > Blaster, yet with both arguments, the blaster has the upper hand. Blasters will out perform Scrappers at range, and out damage MMs all out.

Again, have you tried to farm with a Mastermind? Have you even heard of people doing it? The risk vs reward isn't work it, when a pure damage class can do it much faster, and without the hassle involved.

While I'm nearly certain Masterminds can, in the right conditions out damage a blaster doing the same thing, the risk gets high once you start stacking in various things. Do remember that Masterminds suffer more from AoE damage then any other AT, and once their pets do drop, they have the lowest hp base of any other AT. Masterminds are by no means immune to the effects of mobs, and while some instances (hami raids for example) the mastermind can clearly stay completely out of harms way, those are few and far between.

Masterminds have to micro manage 6 different damage sources, as well as deal with their buff/debuff/control secondary. This is a hard task to do, especially considering a blaster merely has to point and click and kill the mobs. Have you actually tried to farm on a Mastermind? I mean seriously try? Its much too hard and very different to manage then a single character (Blaster, controller, etc) due to the erratic behavior of the pets AIs, and how it really doesn't want to work sometimes (try ninjas, those things make blasters of any sort look like invuln tankers in their shear durability)

So, yes, on paper masterminds may out damage blasters, especially against hard targets where they can focus fire, and work their debuffs, but in practice, its really much harder to do.

39% isnt the softcap. Gaussin's at 2.5% def to all other positions, and the steadfast adds another 3%, which assuming you throw 2 def IOs in combat jumping, and ED cap defense in all your passives, and toggles, your at the softcap. Which is what i said, Combat jumping, tough, weave, Gaussin's plus a steadfast. If you don't follow that exact thing, it'll take alot more to softcap you, and depending on your primary, you may not be able to pick all those powers and slot them that exact way.

Not all masterminds have a self heal, and yes, bodyguard mode does equate to extra hitpoints due to the mechanic, but it requires you to not be as aggressive as a blaster can be. And if your not in bodyguard mode, masterminds are the squishest AT in the game. Thats the balance. You either become very defensive, and very hard to kill, or very aggressive, and very easy to kill. AoEs actually hurt a mastermind more then any other AT due to the way bodyguard mode works, your henchmen end up taking about 1/3rd more damage from AoEs when in bodyguard mode then when not. And resummoning your pets is limited by available recharge. If things go down hill to quickly, and a mastermind is left without their pets, they are far more likely to die then when a blaster gets mez'ed for example.

Controllers, by themselves, more often then not can not out damage a blaster. Fire/kins can farm yes, and ill/* can use phantom army to do some serious damage, but outside of that, you'll find far less damaging controllers when compared to blasters. The buff/debuffs don't make up for the lower damage cap, and damage mod the controllers have, even when factoring in containment. And locking down a full mob doesn't mean you can kill it in any reasonable amount of time. An arch/MM blaster will out farm a fire/kin controller due to sheer damage being dished out.

Blasters can also waltz into melee while mobs are distracted or disabled via their own hard/soft controls or with a tank in the group to help with aggro.

Blasters don't require constant attention from buff/debuff, not anymore then a defender, corruptor, or controller would need. And it's already been said in this thread that on a team of 7 controllers/defenders/corruptor its much better to add a blaster then it is to add another controller/defender/corruptor due to the fact blasters have higher damage caps, have higher damage scales, and have larger AoEs. Force multipliers only go so far when you start hittings ceilings, which 1 or 2 defenders/controllers can get you to.

Thats why linking to pylons threads aren't exactly the best way to compare ATs, I think both Werner and Bill Z have mentioned that. Its a very very specific form of DPS measurement, which can be accomplished by pretty much anyone.

Masterminds have always been able to out DPS blasters, due in part to the fact their primary (the pets) are basically 6 mini-blasters with very specific powers, and their secondary is built to keep said mini-blasters alive through buff/debuffs. Masterminds die alot easier to different things then blasters do (fire patches anyone?) and suffer much more to cascading failures then just about any other AT, due to their main for of self mitigation coming from their pets. Plus they have the lowest base hitpoints, and have a very hard time capping them, where a blaster can cap their hitpoints with much less work (with accolades, a blaster only needs 13.5% more hit points bonuses to cap)

SR only needs minimal slotting if you take combat jumping, have access to Buildup (for the gaussins) and take the fighting power pool for tough and weave. Without that, you sitting on about 35% def to all positions, and you have to build towards getting it higher. SR's cannot naturally slot the steadfast +def IO, so while it may be easier to softcap them then say fire armor, Shield armor is actually much much easier to do, due to the way the set works.

Controllers are in the same boat as Masterminds. In very specific cases they can out damage and out survive anything, but Take them out of those very specific cases, and things just go south quickly. Illusion control is able to completely DPS within the safety of phantom army, which itself is able to out damage it's own heal component and deal massive DPS.

Dominators are really the only things seriously stepping on blasters toes, with their hard controls out ranking the blasters soft controls, and their damaging being about on par with what your average blaster can do. Both need to jump in and out of melee in order to do it, and both have the habit of dieing if too many melee attacks land. For a dominator thats much easier to avoid though. Granted blasters still out AoE a dominator, even with the APPs giving Dominators much needed AoE powers.

In a team setting, with mixed debuff/buff and multiple damage coming from different sources, blasters do no under perform, and even when compared to other damaging ATs, they have higher AoE caps, which they can use and abuse to their advantage once they reach higher levels of survival. Which is why it is almost always better to buff the blasters over any other AT on a team setting, so the blaster can use its full potential without worry of eating dirt.

qft.

Its exactly what i said, Blasters can't stand toe to toe with most opponents for long. And to use your melee attacks when it won't get you killed. i/e standing toe to toe with that warwolf will get you killed, as their melee attacks hit hard, but kiting it, using ranged attacks to close in, and melee to finish them off means much less of a chance of them pounding your face in.

Ton of damage from either a distance or up-close, which isn't at all different from what i said. Which you actually quoted me on. I'm again not seeing the issue with Blasters in general. They are high damage range damaging ATs with melee to supplement their attacks. Its the way the archetype was built, and the reason why they are use their t1 and t2 blasts while mez'ed.

Yes, the melee attacks hit hard on a blaster, but they need to. How is that proving Scrappers can do the job better? Nearly all the scrappers high damaging attacks are melee, yet the blaster can do similar damage (as proven by the previously linked pylon thread) using range and melee attacks.

Range is again the blasters best friend. Yes they can close into melee, and yes those melee attacks will pack a heck of a punch, but if your playing a blaster like a scrapper you will eat more concrete then if you use your range attacks to you advantage. Kiting a mob will save your skin much more often then trying to stand toe to toe with it.

I'd actually like to point out that there are distance modifiers attached to ATs.. They are in the form of Damage Scale and they affect how much damage a certain AT does with a certain type of attack (be it ranged, or melee) Which are listed here. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scale

That points out that blasters have a 1.0 melee damage scale, and a 1.125 Ranged damage scale. This means they have the third highest melee damage scale, (behind scrappers at 1.125, and dominators at 1.05) and the highest ranged damage scale among any of the ATs (outside of nova form Warshades, or Peacebringers, but those only have 4 attacks, which are all ranged)

Scrappers on the other hand have a 1.125 Melee Damage Scale, and only a .5 range damage scale. Granted, there are some ranged attacks scrapper have access to that use the melee damage scale, but for the most part, they are not a ranged class.

So for a blaster to do the most damage, they have to use their ranged attacks, with a hint of Melee, which is exactly what I said. Stay at range, use your utility to your advantage, and only use melee when it won't get you killed (i/e on a mez'ed mob)

You wanted to compare */* Blasters to */* Scrappers and said that no matter what a */* blaster should out damage a */* Scrapper, and I just used an example of a AR/dev blaster vs. a elec/shield scrapper as why that wouldn't be possible.

I play my blasters from range, and have little issue with them. I know that if I venture into melee, with my lack of standard defenses, that I will face plant, as I'm not designed to stand toe to toe with melee mobs. The description for a blaster specifically states its a Ranged damage toon.

"The Blaster is an offensive juggernaut. This hero can deal a ton of damage from either a distance or up-close, but he must be careful because he's somewhat fragile compared to other heroes. The Blaster can't stand toe to toe with most opponents for long. His best defense is a great offense!

Alignment: Hero

The Blaster's power sets are:

Primary: Ranged
Secondary: Support


The Blaster has Low Hit Points and High Damage. "

Copied directly from http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Blaster which I'm pretty sure pulls it directly out of the game's description. As I'm at work, I can't exactly look it up, but it does say 'Ranged' and 'High Damage' in the descriptions.

You again assuming the blaster is going to stand there and die. They still have thier t1 and t2 attacks, which are still ranged, and still pack a decent punch. The immbolize, is again, still range. Most mez's are range as well, so mob mez's blasters, blaster immoblizes mob, then proceeds to blast it with t1 and t2 attacks, which can easily be chained together using SOs.

What is your threshold? Because this game is balanced around soloing at +0/1/no bosses. With those numbers, A blaster can, and will kill faster then a scrapper of equal still, due to the range component a blaster has. A scrapper has to close up to the enemy, while the blaster can easily attack from upwards of 40ft (throw spines, caps at 30ft range by the way) Yes the higher damaging attacks for a blaster are the melee attacks, but thats why they have a hold or a stun in thier primary. Hold/stun the mob, then wail on it, then goto the next group.

Linking to the Pylon thread actually moreso proves my point then yours. This is the latest up to date info on the results. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=612

and currently there are 2 Blasters in that post, with DPS values of 219 (fire/energy), and 204 (ice/mental) There are also 34 /shield or shield/ DPS values. There are 105 posts, with the fire/energy being number 53, and the ice/mental being 61, which is just about in the middle of performance, and thats when compared to other scrappers/brute/dominators/controllers/MMs basically anyone else who are posted in that thread. So, how are blasters underperforming?

I recent played my fire/fire/fire blasters, my DP/dev blaster, my elec/shield scrapper, and my kat/regen scrapper for about an hour each within the last week, and i'll have to say the blasters are out living the scrappers, due to sheer amounts of damage, and abusing range.

My regen, if he takes too much of an alpha, just dies. Its a problem of regen, not so much a scrapper in general, but He does die quite often if divine doesnt hit, or MoG isnt up to help out. the fire/fire/fire blaster does die, but its not nearly as often as the regen, and the fire/fire/fire actually has RoTP, where the regen just couldnt fit it in his build, so a death doesnt stop me completly on the blaster as it does the scrapper.

Both the DP/dev and the elec/shield are lower level, which you said yourself blaster perform better at lower levels, so comparing those may not really help out the case at all, but the elec/shield can barely handle a group of 3 ghouls constantly hitting him, as i have to close into melee in order to attack. the blaster can pull, and attack at range and handle quite abit more then the scrapper can.

If your playing your blaster like you would play a scrapper, your going to die, ALOT. they are completely different styles of doing damage. If you play a blaster like a blaster, your much more likely to not just survive, but out damage said scrapper. Range is your best friend, and being able to attack while mez'ed, plus the scaling damage bonus the more you attack definately helps put things moreso into the blasters court.

You do know, Frosticus was the one to point out that fire/elec blasters have the higher DPS numbers (vs pylons) then even the highest scrapper build? Which is where he got the idea for a fire/fire/fire dom, and managed to squeeze that DPS up to 450 (no really, those are real numbers here guys)

Plenty of Blasters can out damage Scrappers, Its a given based on increased radius of the AoE, and sheer range vs melee arguements. Very few blasters will sit in melee and get pounded on, like your run of the mill scrapper would. Your again cherry picking the example and trying to say a blaster would be worse off then a scrapper, when in reality, a blaster is much better at the job. When mez'ed, a scrapper has no way to defend himself. A blaster has both tier 1 and tier 2 attacks in his primary, and the tier 1 attack in his secondary. For a /energy blaster thats power push, which, while mez'ed, can keep bosses out of his face long enough for the mez to drop. Any blaster worth his AT pick knows to slot the t1 and t2 attacks to recharge constantly, so they can have a complete attack chain while mez'ed.

Your willing to claim the scrappers epic power pools as added damage through targetted AoEs but you wont claim the blasters added mitigation through thier epic power pools? Sleep greande, flash freeze, LRM rocket, Bonfire, PFF, Force of Nature, all provide enough mitigation for a blaster to be able to kill the prime target, then work on other mobs in a group.

A blaster with Force of Nature running has scrapper level resistance, and mez protection. While still maintaining the higher damage potentional due to both Aim and Build up, and added radius on thier AOEs. How is that any worse off them a scrapper?