Xanatos
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Posts
2017 -
Joined
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Quote:While I like your idea from a conceptual perspective, it just would not work in gameplay terms. The reason for this is because you're saying 'losing', and 'being in jeopardy of losing' are essentially the same thing. That just cannot work - the obvious reason is that having 'losing' and 'being in jeopardy of losing' as synonyms is circular from a definitive point of view. (How can being in jeopardy of something be the same as the very thing you're in jeopardy of?) But the less obvious reason is that you're assuming several things: That the player 'running' is doing so to evade defeat, as oppose to luring an overconfident opponent into a trap. That the opponent 'running' is going to help a friend who is in more trouble. That the opponent 'running' is attempting to dictate the pace of the battle...and has no intention of breaking combat with you. All of these things are indicative of the danger of implicating a system that tells players why they are doing things. Put simply: you don't know the motivations of other players and it would be inappropriate to dictate them to them this way.Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I'd have to disagree with that disagree
First a standstill doesn't have one running while the other is still up for the fight, but more importantly than that...
The opponent running is the most classic of comic book defeats, usually with a "You win this one, but I'll be back!" or some such. It doesn't get much clearer than that. Is it smart to run when you're in jeapordy of losing? Probably, yes, but you have still been bested.
I agree that objective based PvP would be a far better model to stage super hero/villain conflicts over, especially as 'super' as a lot of our characters are. You may never take down that Tank, but if you get away with that bank heist and the cash, you win! That same Tank may not do enough damage to take out the same bank robber, but if he can keep the villain from running out with the cash
As an example let's use a bank robbery PvP scenario. The villain drops cash when they're hit (using the same tech from being able to steal codes in the PvP zones to represent cash deposits). There are only so many in the bank, so once the hero takes them all away from the villain- they lose, or if the villain leaves the bank with no cash deposits, that withdraw would be a loss and end the scenario as well. The strategy in how long you should stay, how many blinkie cash deposits can you get away with, and when the best time to cut your losses and leave with what you have, or risk losing it all. The more the villain gets out with, the better the rewards (special drops, inf, whatever) The more the hero prevents them from taking (collecting from the villains, or just having them leave with nothing) is the measure of their success. If the Hero runs out for whatever reason, the scenario ends for them as well (the villain would be the assumed victor and rewards would be doled out). So in this case, for the villain anyway, running could garner a lesser, but still valuable success if they get away with any of the cash doohickies).
So no, running away shouldn't incur a penalty per-se in that scenario, and may even be a winning move, but doing so just to get away should make a withdraw like that a loss.
Also - where do you draw the line in determining pseudo-defeat? How far do they have to run? How much health do they have to lose before they're in jeopardy of losing?
I think the current system - of defeats counting as defeats and nothing else - is much better in that regard. It just makes more sense that you only truly defeat someone when you defeat someone. And while I like your idea for conceptual reasons, the whole "i'll be back!" thing from comics can easily be replicated by respawns/the hospital.
Interesting chat. Sorry I missed it before.
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Quote:Have you ever played a healer in City of Heroes PVP?Originally Posted by War-Nugget
I like heal decay.
In newer PvP games that people may come from, they will know that having countless healers makes your team win. It doesn't involve tactics or a proper PvP-specced character - it only matters that your healer can heal you whenever you are attacked. I have actually SUGGESTED Heal Decay to games that I have done testing for. People will hate it, but it evens the playing field to a team that has less healers. Heck, I even had some people agreeing with me - others not so much because they had never experienced this before. Wouldn't mind a toned down version however, I don't agree it should be removed completely.
Travel Suppression can go. It is just annoying plain and simple. Slows me down in PvE, slows me down in PvP. I can't be like The Zars and just chant "Kill kill kill, kill" as I slowly walk across the desert. I'd prefer to be on horseback and charge in right away. -
You don't need a lot of +HP to cap a WP stalker.
You don't need any KB protection IOs becuase you have a toggle that makes you immune to knockback.
Don't bother with defense on a WP.
Just build for damage. -
Don't PUG. Problem solved.
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Quote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute_factOriginally Posted by Tokyo
...besides there's no such thing as universal truths.
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Is this league dead?
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If you want to use Black Scorpion in your MA missions you can't call him Black Scorpion.
Brilliant. Haha. -
Quote:I didn't know you could PVP in a BAF.Originally Posted by Pixel
Silly rabbit. Leagues are for BAFs.
Learn how forums work please. -
Quote:I disagree. If your enemy has decided to go back to their base then you could argue that you've fought them off to a standstill. But in no way have you defeated them.Originally Posted by Necromatic
I guess what I mean is, if the opponent has decided to completely disengage.
Yes, a tactical withdrawal to heal, recover endurance, recharge some powers or simply avoiding the big attacks (build-up or aim), is smart and should not be penalized.
I think I might go so far to say a base run is a defeat. -
Grav Controllers can feel very powerful. As can Stone Melee. If you like Super Strength you'll like them.
Also: if you're bored of the grind check out some AE story missions. There's loads and most of them are of a higher quality of writing than the in-game missions. (Well...the old ones anyway!) -
Quote:You misunderstand.Originally Posted by Fanservice
Or not! Wait what? Travel Suppression makes it easier for Ranged so now your Tank is doing better? I am confuse.
My tank being more survivable is not is mutually exclusive with the fact that travel suppression favours ranged characters over melee ones when it comes to attack dynamics. Travel Suppression favouring ranged over melee when it comes to attack dynamics does not imply that the person being attacked is any more/less vulnerable than they were before. The comparison is between two attackers, not attacker and attackee.
Hope that cleared it up.
I'm not suggesting going back to the old system. I'm also not suggesting keeping the current old system. I'm suggesting removing Heal Decay and Travel Suppression. Please keep in the context of the thread.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
I thought the point was fairly obvious. The old system sucked, the new system sucks. Going back to the old system doesn't fix anything. Because it sucked. So let's not do that and instead try something else.
Most people preferred it because it was fast paced in terms of movement. No other MMORPG came close.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Tweaking Travel Suppression, sure. It's a good idea that's flawed as it activated on too many triggers in my mind. Throwing it out returns us to the bouncy PvP style which, as I may have said once or twice, I absolutely hated with the fury of a thousand suns.
Delayed damage spike. Damage over time attacks. 1.5 second animation time during which you are vulnerable.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
I have no idea how you managed this. Aren't you invincible in Hibernate? It's pretty much the point of it. -
Quote:Well yes. But here's the thing; every player has the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to select those powers. Meaning that if they are unable to keep up with faster players IT IS THEIR FAULT ENTIRELY.Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
That's the thing; sure it's available to all but that doesn't mean everyone has the powers.
This is just a case of players wanting to have the cake and eat it too. -
Quote:Agree with the rest of your post but not this. If your opponent is able to evade you then you have not been victorious. Survival is something that should be rewarded, not discouraged.Originally Posted by Necromatic
Heck, you should get that victory if you forced your opponent to turn tail and run.
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A- Useful to endgame trials, mission teams, raids, or taskforces?
Yes. You do awesome ST damage. Add in reactive + muculature and the damage really piles up.
B- Able to be built to perform any impressive bragging-rights stunts.
I solo AVs on mine. I solo most Task Forces. I survive team wipes. My build has no purples or PVP IOs.
C- Capable of being useful in PvP, or
Not at all. Bitter Ice Blast does less damage than Ice Blast. Ice Blast is by far the worst blaster set in PVP. Ice Manipulation is also similarly useless. Ice Manipulation also lacks boost range. Ice's secondary affects of slow and holds are useless in pvp on an ice/ice blaster.
So yeah...don't bother. I'm the biggest fan of the ice/ice blaster combo in the game and even I'd avoid using it in PVP. Sadly.
D- Useful for anything other than the occasional nostalgic Steel Canyon fire?
Yeah they're useful for everything. You can be a pseudo-controller with the ice storm/shiver/frostbreath combo for slows, and freeze ray/bitter freeze ray/freezing touch for holds. You can be the master of ST damage. (Ice Blast>Ice Bolt>Bitter Ice Blast>Ice Bolt) You can also add substantial AOE damage with frost breath, blizzard, and judgement. The ice melee attacks are slightly above average but I like using them because they look cool. You have the epicness that is chillblain. And with freeze ray and freezing touch you can hold a boss in 2 seconds. -
Very cool!
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Quote:What name did you used to go by?Originally Posted by Texas Justice
You are one of the people I remember from the original boards. And from Beta.
Of course, I didn't use this name on those boards, so few would remember me. -
Quote:That would be a dream come true. Sadly though I don't think that would ever happen due to the amount of development time it would cost, and the limited PVP demographic currently playing the game.Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
First I am old - at 52 I still play and used to play in various First Person Shooters (FPS) since the days of 300 baud dialup modems.
I have played everything from Halflife, Unreal, Quake, Soldier of Fortune 1 & 2, Battlefield 1942 and many more including Left for dead 1 & 2.
Now in PvP in these games one thing stands out above all others - PLAYER MADE CONTENT. To be successful with PvP you must let the PLAYERS make the content. Remember, Counterstrike was made by a PLAYER - who was then hired by Valve. I am telling you now the one and only way to turn this game around from a PvP stand point is to have an AE like enviroment for PvP. It could be a huge groundbreaking MMO feature.
City of Heroes has without doubt the best costume creator of all time. Hands down nothing else is close.
Now if we took the AE and allowed PLAYERS to create maps similar to the base creator and let PLAYERS balance powers, travel and game play - adding temp powers for flags with reset timers, escort missions (which we already have!), capture the case and escape and let us do so in a normal 8 man/woman/animal/robot/alien team setting - you would have an award winning feature that would set the MMO world on its head.
PvP cannot be made popular by the Devs. In every single one of the games I have played the player made maps became far more popular. Instead of a handful of people working on content you have hundreds or thousands and some of these become big hits. The players find the balance and a use for powers that is out of the box.
Think of the 20 man all Rad team that beat Hamidon first.
I can see a capture the flag game now where a bubbler has reinforced a wall that needs to be destroyed in order to get to the flag, I can imagine so many uses for powers that it has seriously angered me over the last 7 years that the PvP was a red headed step child. The amazing travel powers was the fun of the original PvP. I recall fighting a running super speed battle with another blaster as we zipped all over and it was epic.
I am not asking for the Devs to fix PvP - I am asking to give US the tools to create it.
Removing Heal Decay & Travel Suppression, while obviously not as impressive as your suggestions above, are much more likely to happen. -
Quote:If someone else has taken powers to be fast, why would you not also have to take those powers to be fast? How is that any different to taking healing powers so you can heal or attack powers so you can attack?Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
So to join in on PvP I have to make/take powers that I usually wouldn't just so that I can join in? Isn't that why you don't like what I said? Why do I have to accommodate you (or others)?
My complaint is that the SYSTEM ITSELF is (attempting to) accommodate players who do not have fast characters by slowing down those that do. DESPITE the painfully obvious fact that absolutely ANYONE can be fast because the speed powers are available to every archetype.
I know the idea of any type of PVP having a barrier for entry is a bad one as it excludes new players. But any competitive game will have a "best gun" or "best car". You can't complain that Jedi Knights keep beating you when you refuse to use anything but the hand blaster because you're "RPing as Greedo".
In fact. BECAUSE Travel Suppression makes evading so much more difficult in zones, Phase Shift/Hibernate have become "must have" powers. So right there is an example of Travel Suppression creating a higher barrier for entry into PVP.
I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post but this bit just struck me as odd. Apologies if I've misunderstood you, gone off on a tangent, and started ranting. I have a tendency to do that
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Quote:If you decide contributing to a thread to be more important than having the last word then i'd be happy to discuss this with you. Please check your ego at the door though.Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I would have made a rather lengthy post discussing various points about PvP and the "required" powers to even participate.
But, because of one reply you made to my statement...
I can discount anything else you have to say.
Good day.
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Quote:I wasn't saying "Real PVPers" (silly name) aren't affected by travel suppression. I just said it doesn't make a difference to a tanks ability to kill other players.Originally Posted by Fanservice
I can bring back the silly pictures if needs be. The point was I was saying "I don't want this to turn into a 'Real PvP'ers aren't affected by suppresion" which you none the less decided to argue even though I didn't want to talk about it. Hence the silly pictures.
If I walk into broken glass should I step backwards and rethink my path, or should I soldier on, through the broken glass?Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Yes! The previous system wasn't popular and nor is the current system. Going backwards instead of forwards is not helpful
Vague metaphors with moralistic leanings aren't useful when it comes to system design.
Damned if you can can counter it. Damned if you can't.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Neat! I did not know that. However that's just one more power to add to my silly list of 'Needs' now.
The only conclusion is that you don't actually like PVP as it is.
I've died in hibernate loads.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
I never died with Hibernate, but then again I only killed one other person and they were being a total sitting duck.
How are melee people better off with Travel Suppression?Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Melee are better off with Travel Suppression. They're not a LOT better off but they are better off. A lot of people just aren't very good with dealing with Travel Suppression, they don't realise if they avoid getting attacked for a short period (Or just get high Def briefly ) they can bounce away.
I'm not asking in theory. Because in theory it SHOULD make a difference. In reality it doesn't. All travel suppression does is make it easier for ranged characters to kill someone. This is because melee characters are suppressed by their own melee attacks...so it becomes a crawl for two players. So the melee characters have to crawl to their suppressed opponenet before TS wears off to land another attack. Alternatively: the ranged character, while crawling, just fires ranged blast after ranged blast.
So yes. Travel Suppression does not help melee characters.
I have some ideas that would help make scrappers viable. But this isn't really the thread for it.
I never die in zones on my tank. Back before Issue 13 I used to die a lot more.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Hey! I don't hate Fast Paced Combat. In fact I'm a huge FPS nut and my first love was Planetside, so it's not like I'm not used to death being swift and bloody. But the old system isn't faster paced it's just faster in the literal sense that people are moving about quicker. The damage done does not change. My tank takes even LONGER to kill in the old system actually as I can just run away whenever I feel like it and they have to have the counters ready to stop me. Then again I can do that in the current if I'm lucky with the dodges so hey. At least it's something.
Well sadly the dev team have a history of not realising this. Hence the issue 13 power changes.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
And of course it's my own opinion! Who's else would it have been?
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Quote:Yeah they can't remove rooting animations sadly. (Or at least they couldn't when Castle was asked about it back in 2008.)Originally Posted by Lycantropus
That's the thing, fast paced doesn't have to be SS/SJ/Stealth spike damage.
Like I said, I'm all for removing travel supression AND rooting (I want to have an awesome aerial dogfight darnit!!) but that would only be viable and in my opinion, fun, if there were some serious hard caps to movement speeds. Stop-go-stop of travel supression sucks but I see the intent in it.
I'd be much more interested in PvP if it were more (and here's my catch word for PvP again) dynamic, but that doesn't mean I want a return of the invisible jumping beans. Fast paced doesn't have to mean fast like superspeed fast, but a good consistent clip for in combat movement would be ideal.
I agree on hard caps for travel speeds. But unlike you I think the current PVE hardcaps are appropriate for PVP. I don't think it's too fast for fun combat. -
Quote:Well you didn't go into detail about it as I requested so I had to make a guess. Apologies if I was wrong!Originally Posted by Fanservice
Well don't tell me how you don't want to sound like a Pro then immediately say I only got kills because they were 'easy' kills. I respond to silliness like that in kind!
Well all this means is that all new players are disadvantaged compared to experienced players. Which is to be expected. But if you have a large group of new players then they will pretty much level out against each other. In my experience, having run multiple casual-friendly PVP events, newbie players fighting other newbies tend to do well.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Also the idea of being forced to take Super-Speed or Super-Jump to PvP isn't all that appealing to me. Nor is being forced to get Web Nades (Which you need to control Siren's Call for), take Teleport Other to counter Teleport or play powersets with -Jump and Slows. This is creating checklists that you need to complete before you can have any fun and that is not a good thing for enticing new players, especially as these checklists aren't spelled out.
The idea should be that PVP is fun enough that a lot of people want to play it. If a lot of people want to play it then you'll constantly be fighting casual players / newbie players who don't have optimal builds. I know back before Travel Suppression and Heal Decay I was fighting with a flying blaster. Sure one web grenade would negate my travel power, and the PVP pros would absolutely destroy me. But i'd just let it happen. Anytime I fought a more casual player I had a lot of fun.
Those casual players are gone now. Now everything is FOTM and twinked out.
You can phase shift and hit people.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
There's no counter to Phase Shift or Hibernate but I've only ever faced someone with either once (Hibernate) so it wasn't really a thing I ever worried about. Okay I may have played a Fire/Ice tank in the PvP zones once, but unlike my SS/WP they really were absolutely useless beyond taunting.
If someone is in hibernate you simply wait until they come into it. Also Hibernate has a 1.5 second animation time during which the player can still be attacked.
Oh I agree completely. Melee characters should be able to do a lot more than they currently can. Who wants to level up a superman or wolverine inspired character just to end up a tauntbot? I know I didn't. My point was that melee chaacters were taunters both before and after Issue 13. Travel Suppression and Heal Decay haven't changed that. (Which is why i was confused you think they had made a difference...)Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
I'd like to be able to take a character into PvP and have at the very least a middling chance of being useful in ways beyond pressing Taunt. Rather than fresh meat for the murder machine as I don't have the powers 'needed' to survive.
Well that's just your personal opinion. I used to feel the same way when I was a casual PVPer. Once I got into PVP a bit more I started liking the fast paced combat more.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
Heck maybe if on entering a PvP zone I was given free web nade temps and a Temp Power that gave me Super Speed/Super Jump I'd find it less of a hassle to PvP. But I'd still think bouncing about like jumping beans looks and plays in an absolutely ridiculous way. -
Quote:If two players WANT to stand and fight they're still able to do that.Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
^^ So much this.
I hate kiting-pvp (which from what I have seen (even before i13) and still now) seems to be what CoH is/was about. *attack, run away* Stand and fight! I love the monkey cage arena map
But what about the players who enjoy fast paced combat? Why should they be slowed down to accommodate you? Especially when you are more than capable of taking powers to match their speed? -
I play this game just because of nostalgia. I've been following it for almost ten years now. An absolutely ridiculous amount of time haha!
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No need for that mate. Very immature.