Alabaster12

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Wellcome to the forums! Look around the tanker forums and spend more time with tankers, notice their power selection and character concepts. There you will find your proof.

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I don't believe the forums are an adaquate place to make that kind of judgement. I've asked around in game, had friends who played tankers... asked them why they did. It's just as anecdotal and invalid as your proof. Even so... I have never seen this complaint outside of a few people. Most notably J_B. The fact that he dominates this topic by bringing it up every week or so (or hijacking anyone complaining into they would be happy with more damage) is what I see on the forums. It is impossible to take a valid community reading from this as long as he is on his crusade.

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Also note, nowhere did I say in the original post Tankers are rolled to do damage, but that they are rolled in big part (when not by MMO players) by people that have an inspiration in Superman, Colosus, The Thing, etc.

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My mistake. I put two and two together by the fact that the end result is that you are requesting more damage. See below.


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That's why I'm not just proposing increasing damage

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I must be missing where this isn't an increase in damage? It is a unique mechanic for delivering it, but the end result is an increase in single target damage... no? If I'm missing something please let me know.



Edit: Also even though my writing style is sometimes seen as combative, I'm trying not to be so. I'm genuinely curious, and not trying to make it seem like I'm dismissing your ideas outright.

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their power is still dwarfed by Scrappers, Stalkers, Brutes and Blasters.

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Pointless, expected, anecdotal tripe from you as usual. Great Job continuing to derail valid debate.

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If you didn’t, you either had more of a classic MMO background or are in the minority.

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Proof please. This is my first MMO. I don't know how you are so SURE I'm in the minority. I didn't roll my tank to do damage, I rolled it to play on a team and provide a support roll of absorbing damage... (since a lot of these arguments are conceptually based... aka to play the "Tough" guy, not the necessarily the heavy hitter). I would assume that isn't something uncommon for people who play the tank AT, however I have as little proof as you do so I'll stick with my personal experience.

I wouldn't be completely opposed to gauntlet having an additional affect, but to me just increasing damage is boring, and has already been done. It also does absolutely nothing to help with the reason I play my tankers... it provides no additional benefit towards helping support a team. Just my opinion, but I'd rather have something unique that helps tanker stacking (which I believe is a REAL problem being masked by a lot of "GIVE MOAR DMG!" threads) rather than just moving the scale closer towards scrappers or brutes.

I appreciate your point of view, but don't agree.

I actually like to slot melt armor. Some of the set bonuses for def debuff, and accurate def debuff are great, and can be a rarity for a lot of tanker combos.

I typically go 5 slotted for analyze weakness, but there are a lot of other great sets to consider too.

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How do you cap the non-smashing, non-lethal resistances?

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While IO resistance bonuses are pretty laughably small, when you're in Granite and sitting at 77-80%, needing only another +10% to cap, suddenly that bonus every single damn purple set seems to have (+2.52% Fire/Cold) is moderately useful. Similarly, the new PvP +3% resist IO (Wtf, only 3%? That's retarded!) is a sizable chunk. And if you're an old fart Veteran, the +dam/resist buff pet can throw you another +5% (hey, don't knock it, the only times you might ever need such a buff is against an AV...and you should know where to place it so it doesn't get killed). And finally, Scirocco's Dervish for +3.13% neg (and it only needs 3 slots--although, I'm more partial to getting +4.38% energy/negative defense from my PBAoE attacks).

Claiming Energy resistance is capped though? I'm a little skeptical as the largest bonus is 1.88% from Detonation and that gets a little hard to slot multiple times on a Tank.

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Pretty much all of this. My bad, I should have said Energy was on that list with psi too. My energy resist is at 80% with the rest excluding psi capped.

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IO'ed out WP/ tanker beats out Granite in survivability imo. Survive just as well, and not have the movement/dmg/recharge negatives that Granite gives you.

Before I gutted her, my WP/EM tanked Recluse at the end of the STF, without any help from Defenders/Trollers/Nukes/Shivians...just my tank and some skittles (the /RAD left, and I can't recall if we had a /TA on the team, but even if we did, they stayed with the rest of the team on the towers)...

Kept aggro, kept standing, beat the TF

I'm not saying don't go Stone Armor. But I don't think I'd call it the number one survivable tanker anymore.

That, and all to often I see Granite Tankers not using Rooted in Granite, and thus dying. *Shakes head and weeps*

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If you're going to compare an IO'd out toon you have to compare it to an IO'd out stone tank.

As an example My stone tank has:
capped defense to all types. (including psi)
capped resistances to all types. (excluding psi, but with capped defense it's never been a problem)
around +15 rech while in granite.
Moves at 25-ish mph in granite.

I've never seen another non-stone tank achieve those levels (and truthfully I've never even seen another stone tank, but I'm sure someone could probably tweak the build even a bit more).


Oh... and I rarely use rooted while in granite unless I'm facing an AV or a few other exceptions (and didn't even before I was IO'd out to the gills). Don't need to. I literally can't remember the last time I died on this toon including in the limited PvP I've done. Rooted + Granite is unnecessary for a large majority of a stone tanks life.

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I'm having a lot of fun with a Stone/Fire at the moment. So I can recommend this.

Great damage (at least outside of Granite). As I'm not doing sets yet (still in the low 30's), it's still something of a trade off between recharge and end reduction. I tend to just carry around a lot of blues.

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This. My stoner of choice is fire. I've tried a few others but this was the one I had the most fun with and made the most well rounded character possible for a stone tank IMO.

Still able to solo missions outside of granite, and still very able to hold agro with 2-4 aoe's (if you take bof and a pool 4) one of which is available very quickly.

It is an offensive set with no mitigation, but stone doesn't need mitigation IMO. I never worry about dying since granite is always available if needed so there really is no downside to taking arguably the most offensive tanker secondary and pairing it with the most defensive primary.

I can't really speak to elec since I haven't ever made a brute.

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Do you have some kind of chemistry issue that makes it physically impossible for you to be happy? I haven't seen one positive post from you anywhere.

I mean, I really didn't believe we'd ever have access to alternate animations. I said "really lucky"if it happened. It's miraculous as I'm concerned. I'm psyched! The tech exists, and could even be possible for more of this down the road! It's fantastic!

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I have a feeling if tankers were all of a sudden given tankomination tomorrow and it worked exactly as he wanted it to, he would still find something to complain and be unhappy about. The nice part is virtually everyone see's him for what he is, and either blocks him, or just gets a nice chuckle out of it.

Anyone else notice how stone armor was on both the gigantic list that will have customizable powers, and also was on the list with necromancy had the following quote:

"Stone Armor and Necromancy will include limited customization."

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Well yeah, but using shift+lclick is the same as using any hotkey+lclick. In this situation, shift is basically a hotkey.

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The only reason I use it is convenience and not for any noticeable speed. I hate teleport as a travel power, but it's practically mandatory on a stoner and my finger finds the shift key a lot more comfortably when traveling long distances than it does any of the number keys. I've found that there is a lot less missed clicking when going across an entire map when I use shift instead of where I had it before at 7.

** Not that it matters but I use hotkeys for everything also.

My post wasn't really about damage, more about agro generation.

With lower recharge I've found that in granite more aoe = better.

If however you've tried ice and believe it will be an adaquate combo, or are planning on not running granite as much as dave_p does (who I was actually thinking of when I made my post ) then more power to you.

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This guys is for pure tanking. Damage is second priority but it's always great to have.

Anyone have any Stone/Ice builds to share. I will be tinkering with mids soon but just wanted to get a head start on where to go.

Thanks in advance!

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Are you interested in using granite like a click power or are you planning on using it for any heavy lifting tanking as a toggle?

The reason this question is important is that if you are planning on using granite with any frequency ice is probably not an ideal secondary. What you want with a heavy granite build is not mitigation through your secondary, what you want is agro control. What you want is aoe, and quick single target attacks without any major recharge. IMO fire is perfectly suited to this, but others might have had as good or better experience with other secondaries.

If you want to spend most of your time outside of granite and only want to use it like an emergency click power then ice is ideal and probably the best available option. Then again if you were planning on doing this I'm not sure stone is as optimal as something like ice might work a little better.

If on the other hand you are looking for concept reasons alone or interested in just trying the combo, ignore my above post.

I have never played an ice secondary, and certainly haven't paired it with stone. I could give you advise on what to take in stone to get you through, but there might be someone else that comes along that could give better advise on a particular stone/ice build.

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And to expand on that somewhat I don't know of much that would really matter; a decently slotted Granite tanker with Rooted has so much overkill survivability that even loosing most of your defense due to debuffs (something I haven't had happen yet to my Granite tank) should still leave you with more than enough survivability between your resists and regen.

Frankly I wouldn't worry about def debuffs on a Granite.

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QR

The only time I can remember this being an issue was once when I was doing an MA mission against a particularly brutal combination of a psi dmg / def debuffer. Since the majority of my psi protection comes from defense and I only have about 20 resists to it it took me down quite a bit in health, but my regen from rooted still kept me alive long enough for the group to take down the AV.

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We're talking about solo killing an AV, not making a sandwich while one attacks you

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You mean while 3-4 attack you! 1 is for amateurs and scrappers (possibly the same group)

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I never argue numbers Johnny, they mean next to nothing without actual play testing. As for your suggestion, it sounds attractive but it's pulling tankers toward the concept of single target boss killers. Your vision of tankers aside, that is not what tankers are set up to do in the game and I think that any change made to tankers should support what they were designed to do, fight groups of mobs.

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You're talking to a broken record there. No matter how many times you say that you aren't talking about numbers but just mechanics he will continually say it isn't enough damage to bosses and above (which is his idea, not yours).

I don't have a problem with change ideas, which is why I didn't completely say no to yours (although I wouldn't necessarily want any change for more damage, but can concede that the lower levels are a bit rough and new mechanics aren't necessarily all bad, I just don't like the idea of giving tankers a damage boost), but his ideas are very repetitive and anything that isn't his idea must immediately be brought back to his vision... hence why he's constantly attempting derailing threads.

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Stone Armor is toughest but recharge and damage penalties I think take it out of the running for an AV killer unless supremely built (Stoners correct me if I'm wrong).

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No way. One of my guilty pleasures is trying to build the toughest baddie(s) in the MA I can and see if they can solo me on my stoner (I've done the entire LRSF, but unfortunately you can't get them all on a small enough map that they will all attack you, but have gotten 3-4 of them at a time), but trying to actually kill it would be a lesson in futility... and my build is pretty high up there. Outside of granite, possibly but still unlikely... and I don't know if you'd have enough survivability to manage it.

I guess I'm in the minority, but if had an aoe threat, I would just focus fire all of my debuffs and pets on it, and it would die before it did any damage. Once it was dead, I would switch to bg mode and proceed as normal.

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So? My Controller couldn't control much pre 30's either. None of the ATs, save Brutes and Scrappers, are that hot before level 25.

That's more an issue with Training Enhancers vs DOs and SOs and how slots are distributed across levels, in my opinion.

I'm looking at long term playability. A character will only be lower level for so long. They'll be at 50 much longer, especially if the devs are going to be introducing more post 50 character progression (Universal Enhancement slots, IOs, etc).

With MA and the changes to the leveling curve, levels 1-25 isn't the long road it once was.

So yeah, for the couple hours my Tankers were pre level 25, endurance and role were a pain. But for a couple of years I've found Tanker offense at levels 40-50 to be lacking.


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If that's the way you feel you should bow out of this conversation instead of directing it towards your own agenda. Point taken, you don't think lower levels are a problem.

(Hopefully teaching J_B how to not completely derail threads and be annoying towards others ideas)

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If I was to rank the problems I have with Tankers at lower levels, running out of endurance is top of the list. Lacking damage is second. Needing to be much tougher doesn't even rate.

If they improved Tanker damage, that would help with the endurnace issues, since the attacks would become more efficient. Tankers spend the same endurance per attack as any melee AT, yet Tanker attacks deal less damage. It's not the problem of the cost of the attacks. Every AT pays the same. The problem is the Tanker must spam more of them to defeat the same mob. Damage is the problem.

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I'm not sure how you get from needing help with endurance to going straight back to your standby about needing more damage.

If you feel endurance is the problem at the lower levels why wouldn't you push for getting end reduced for tanker attacks since there is the tradeoff that they do less damage?

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As I just said, damage would help address the endurance issues.

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As would reducing their end cost, but of course that doesn't help the same argument you've been putting out for years so why would you make that gigantic logical leap that if the end cost is too high it should be reduced.

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Tankers don't need more survivability.

They are more than survivable enough to complete any solo content in the game.

On teams, if they were any more survivable, there really wouldn't be a need for any of the buff/debuff ATs.

More survivability along with better taunting, are the last two things Tankers need.


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You mean ... Quite WRONG.

Tankers do need more survivability at the lower levels. They don't reach the ability to tank until the 20's or 30's (depending on primary/secondary). Since that is what the OP appears to be focusing on, perhaps you should leave it at that.

I don't think a damage buff is what we need at all at the lower levels... well... I don't think we need one at any level, but especially not at the lower levels where our survivability is lower.

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I'm of the opinion that Tanker's don't really need a damage bump (maybe certain sets do but that's a different issue).

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I share this opinion but I can also understand the OP's point about the lower levels. To me the lower levels problem is more survivability than damage though. The problem is trying to actually tank or do anything, you can generate threat, but don't have the tools to deal with it.

Maybe something like an inverse level buff for the really low primary powers? You get a multiplier that slowly goes down as you level up? Maybe the end cost is low at the beginning for toggles, but gradually goes up as you level?

Just thinking out loud.

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As I mentioned before, Granite is a great panic button but it just has too many debuffs (-recharge, -damage, - run speed, -jump, -fly) to overcome to make it worthwhile to have up all the time. You also wind up running Rooted with Granite Armor for the healing so that slows you down even further.

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I run Granite anytime I have more than 3 people on a team (which is virtually guaranteed that I will have more than that unless I'm soloing). I hardly ever run rooted and granite, and when I do it's usually because there is something really nasty that I have to deal with, and the mobility isn't as much of a problem.

In granite, I currently have a positive recharge, positive damage, and can run about 25 mph. That's with a pretty extreme build, but it's actually pretty easy to get workable numbers for a granite build. Before I started going really crazy I think I had cut the -rech in half, and made up the rest in my attacks, and was probably running somewhere around 20 mph.

Granted most of mine are not /ice so I've always felt like I had to go granite to make myself survivable in larger and tougher teams but that also made my agro better.

IMO, stone/fire is the best combo for agro generation and survivability. 2 aoe's, plus good quick charging attacks that also have dots makes it pretty easy. If you build for granite you don't need extra mitigation that ice would provide. I'm not saying you don't have a completely valid playstyle with stone/ice that works well, just that I did it differently.

On my Bots/Dark I never took it.

With my build I had to choose between fearsome stare and petrifying gaze and I went with the -tohit that would hit the entire group and haven't regretted that decision yet (and given how much I actually love and use fearsome stare I can't say I will ever switch out of it).

I just don't really need hard control on this char. Everything is usually dead (even running relentless) before I would even bother trying to hold anything. What I did need was -kb, but that is neither here nor there.

Even if it was a great hold (which it's a pretty awful hold) I still wouldn't want it.

All of these are invalid concerns.

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- getting the mobs into the aura,

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Not a problem if you build/play the set properly. See more with the next one.

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- having Taunt up and available to reclaim the attention of outlying mobs, and

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Definitely not a problem. I didn't even have this problem leveling before I got any IO's. I don't know if your just spamming taunt 24-7 but I've never needed taunt and not had it available. First of all I think of taunt as more for anything that's outside of my taunt aura range... covering the first item on your list here. That is extremely rare as long as you know what you are doing, and even then, if you are using taunt that much... throw a few recharge reducers in it and you're good to go.

The whole point of the enhancement system is you can customize your powers to fit your play style... if you're play style is taunting a lot (which seems inefficient, but if that's how you play so be it) then make sure it is up enough.

I've seen this problem a lot by stone tanks in the game and I don't know why, but it seems obvious to me. A lot of stone tankers see the -70% and think that adding global recharge is the only answer. Putting recharge reducers into attacks will work just as well, and if you combine the two you will have no problems whatsoever.

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- reliance on Speed Boost, which creates problems for anyone trying to position a PBAoE power for maximum effect.

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Not once was I reliant on speed boost while playing my stone tankers. Was it a nice buff to have if given? Absolutely. But it is quite easy to build a stone tank that doesn't need sb. SB being mandatory for stone is a crutch for players who really don't like playing a stone tank and just want the easy fix instead of actually building to avoid the problem entirely.

I'll take it even one step further. Once I got a few GoTA's and a few other very cheap sets, I got to the point where once I got a speed boost I immediately turned on rooted because I would move far too fast if I didn't, and without the ability to jump that would be far too much on some maps.

No offense here, but you are very much sounding like the player you described being in your first post. Someone who leveled a stone tanker to 50, obviously didn't like it very much, and then never touched it again.

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Isn't this what you are doing by saying that Stone "one of the best"? The OP is asking us to tell him what to do after all! Frankly I think that there are a lot of misunderstandings about stone tankers, what they can and can't do, and it's well worth setting the record straight.

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Thats why I said the following:
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To the OP... pick what you think works for you. Any set can be a great tanker in this game depending on how much you want to build your character. Any negatives on any set can be offset with the right build, and any tank primary/secondary can do the job for any group.

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Any tank will work. BUT the audacity of saying that anyone who is playing a kin is worthless, and that they instead should play FF, sonic, or thermal is pretty over the top.

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He has a valid point. Stone is great at standing up and taking damage but it's a weak build when it comes to mobility and keeping aggro.

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I disagree. Mud pots is one of the best agro generation tools out there and on par with any of the other taunt aura's. Mobility can easily be built around. Take swift... 3 slot it... you're a good chunk of the way there. Take teleport, and add a click macro, and you're the rest of the way there.

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Let me put it this way: assume that a tank of any build is going to stay alive (and a well-built tank of any build can probably do that against almost anything). Which tank build is going to be best then for a team? A tank build that has severe mobility problems that can be partially worked around or, say, a tank build that has great mobility, AoE attacks and other abilities that gather aggro really easily?

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Every tank has some problem or another. There is no one best tanker, there is only a tanker that if built properly you can offset whatever penalties exist in the set to offset any balance points that exist in it.

Whether that is agro generation, survivability, mobility, end management, whatever... every set has problems. Stone doesn't have to worry about survivability, end management or agro generation (IMO) and so you really just have to fix mobility and recharge rate.

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This is why I tried to give some perspective to the OP about defense versus aggro management in CoX. The thing is, they're very, very different problems. While a Stone tank is very good at one, it's not ideal for the other. There are better overall combos, IMO, for a well-rounded team tanker.

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I appreciated what you were saying in the post where you said that, but there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread that is just putting down the stone set when it has the same problems every other set does, it's just some people dislike the solutions to those problems. That isn't a problem with the set, that is a personal preference.

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Still, apart from staying alive through just about anything, a stone build doesn't really offer anything that isn't done better by other builds.

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I disagree. Apart from staying alive and keeping everything glued to you on par with everything but ice and possibly fire (which I haven't played so not sure) you're right it doesn't offer anything that isn't done better by other builds. But that sure sounds to me like one of the more important team roles for tankers.