Zem

This arrived with i18. While Hidden, DA's auras are suppressed. Since they are not hitting enemies, they don't drop you from Hide. They instantly become effective once you drop out of Hide by either making an attack of your own, taking damage, or clicking a mission object.

Nice try, Test, but I'm not the reason for this little thread-jack. You don't get to bag on ST stalkers and then tell anyone disagreeing with you to leave the room. It doesn't work that way. You don't want this here? Don't troll.

And this is relevant to THIS thread anyway. What is the perfect stalker set? Obviously I know your answer. And I even agree that some AoE is nice to have. But the one additional PBAoE that most scrapper sets have (which gets replaced by AS in stalkers) is not so totally transformative as you would have us all believe. It wouldn't make a Stalker that is "useless" on a team with only ST attacks suddenly worth having if his set got switched around to include that one additional PBAoE.

Well, they are for sure not the superstar teams you keep going on about that can kill entire spawns, +2 bosses included, in less than the time it takes AS to animate. But then again, you've yet to explain what good your Spines stalker is going to do on a team that is already killing that fast either.

The truth is that on most teams, you can contribute even with single-target damage. In fact, on any team that already has enough AoE to wipe out the minions and LTs easily, you are BETTER off with good single-target damage. You won't be racking up the largest total damage numbers but that's not what the team needs. What the team needs is to get EVERY member of the enemy spawn dead before it can move on to the next. And that's not true until the toughest enemies are dead. AoE kills the weakest enemies first.

Nope. Leveling up an MA/Nin now. Not having any trouble getting teams. Plenty of bosses to kill on teams, especially the ones running at +2. Funny... no one is killing those before I can. You said that would happen, no? Still waiting for it.

Yeah, sad existence alright.

Nerfstorm?

*checks to see if the name is available*

That's not really what I meant by multiple paths. I meant just taking and running missions from more than one path for a particular level range. So doing both the Crusader and Warden contact missions in Nova, for example. If you stealth missions on your Stalker you will end up having to run missions from more than just your chosen current alignment path (even if that path switches from time to time at morality missions).

Heck, on my first stalker attempt (which later go re-rolled) I was sticking to a single path and NOT stealthing. I was clearing. And I still ran out of missions and had to team/sweep for a bit at some points.

And I wasn't saying it was a huge problem. Just something to be aware of when taking the advice to stealth missions on a stalker. It means less XP and in Praetoria there are currently not a lot of contacts to choose from unless you do play multiple sides at the same time. If you want to stick to a single route through the story (again, even if you switch sides when presented with the choice) then you will want to clear those missions you do have rather than skipping past most of the enemies.

There is still an advantage to being a stalker in this situation though. Even if you want to clear a room, you get to decide where and when you'll start and how to progress. Maybe the entrance is a bad place to fight from because there are spawns to either side that are too close together. You can stealth to the opposite corner of the room and pick it apart from there or avoid just the problem spawns.

Running multiple paths with a single character is possible, but usually at the expense of concept. Unless your concept is "multiple personality disorder" that is. Each path is designed for a particular kind of character. It doesn't surprise me that people were running out of contacts and complaining. They were probably doing the most OBVIOUS thing the game leads you into doing... a single path based on what kind of character you're playing. I suspect most people who intend to explore the other paths will do so on other characters.

Working undercover can explain working both sides but that's not well explained either. I still see people in broadcast asking how to do that. And it still doesn't really explain playing both, for example, of Power and Responsibility arcs or both Warden and Crusader arcs.

Ambushes are the only issue I have with Praetorian missions at all. And while you *could* stealth many missions on a Stalker, this only helps if your goal is merely to complete missions. If you do this however, you will end up running out of missions quickly without having leveled up enough for the next ones in your chosen path. So you'll have to run multiple alignment paths in Praetoria, street sweep, or team for the XP you're missing.

"Ghosting" stopped being the best way to earn XP while running missions on a Stalker a long time ago.

Yeah, but isn't this a bit like the Scrapper fans saying they do their best work when they are using an AoE? Or they do their best work when under the influence of Build Up? It's just one thing they do. However good it is, it doesn't mean that's all they are about. I look at the Stalker's ability to strike hard from Hide as ONE thing about the AT. Too often I read posts where it seems people think this is ALL that Stalkers are about and keep looking for ways to get them able to do it more often.

I'm fine with the way Stalkers play now. I do get my surprise attack most of the time. Then it's back to scrapping, which is what the OTHER fifteen powers in my powersets are designed to do. I don't need a way to get back into Hide faster. Hide has done its job. Now it's time to fight.

To me the problem is very very simple. I should be able to run through an attack chain and do the same damage as a Scrapper executing the exact same attacks and I should be able to do that WITHOUT being hidden or teamed. Balance on that point with damage modifier and random crits, whatever. Once you achieve that, the Stalker's *controlled* criticals from Hide status push him over the top into the territory that belongs to him: More damage, less survivability than a Scrapper.

Pre-20... skip Build Up. No really. The build is really tight down there and Build Up, while it is great when it's available, is on a 90s recharge timer which means that pre-SOs and pre-global-recharge-bonuses, you won't be using it every fight. Best learn to survive without it for now. And you might not want to outright kill an LT with AS anyway since then you won't be debuffing his friends with Demoralize. They are usually quickly dead from your follow-up attacks, in any case. Also in the "don't take this pre-20" dept.... Hasten. As good as it is, you probably don't really have the endurance to attack faster than you already are anyway and it too is on an enormous recharge timer so like Build Up, it's just not there most of the time this early in your career.

Definitely skip any travel. Pick Hurdle at 8 or 10 and use it with Ninja Run (and if you didn't get the Martial Arts pack, do so. It is worth every penny for that power alone). Hurdle greatly increases the jump height and speed of Ninja Run. Plus it's just fun.

Aside from picking two of your first three attacks, the next chance you'll have to fit another "normal" attack in is probably 18. For KM this would be Burst. Not sure how good this is solo, at low levels, against the typically fewer number of enemies you face but... your mileage may vary. Might be a better idea to pick up whichever of your tier 1/2/3 you don't already have and respec out of it later. Maybe experiment on an alternate build with it.

As for armors. I usually go Ninjitsu so my choice is melee or ranged. I figure I can usually use corners and stuff to get things into melee range where they prefer to use their melee attacks so I pick the melee toggle first. For typed defense I guess the priority is S/L first and then E. I pick up another armor toggle somewhere mid teens along with mez-resist and, probably, Health. Stamina typically at 22.

Seems to work okay for me. Any way you slice it the late teens and very early 20s are a chore. I also invest in level 20 common IOs at 17 since they are a cut above DOs and worth it, in my opinion, during that time when you're pulling for level 22 and SOs. But this depends how fast you will be leveling in the 17-22 range. If you're going to be joining farms right out of Praetoria you probably won't bother. Me, I tend to still be soloing or joining ordinary missions teams, so it's worth it to me.

Lastly, if you have a rich alt have him mail you a level 10 Kismet:6% Accuracy IO to slot at 7. (Ninjitsu players should throw in a level 10 Karma:-KB IO as well). The +6% tohit from the Kismet is well worth slotting in Hide and helps any vet attacks you might have. Level 17 is another gift-giving opportunity with Miracle:+Recovery, which can go in Health. Anyone that can slot resistiance IOs (which includes Ninjitsu's self-heal, btw) can also slot Steadfast:+3% def. Every little bit helps. Even temp recipes funneled to your newbie can help in the low levels when you lack attacks. Use them when needed, kind of like insps.

The problem Stalkers have leading mobs... indeed the problems ANYONE has escorting mobs out of a map is entirely intentional on the part of the devs. Not just the Warburg scientists, but ANY player-targetted ambush proves that if they want a mob to be able to follow you, stealthed or not... they can do that. It's absolutely not a technical limitation.

Presumably the only reason they usually don't allow non-combat escorts to see through Hide is that you'd otherwise be able to lead them out past and through enemy spawns, which would be a little odd. For Warburg, I imagine they just figured it would be TOO much of a disadvantage in a PvP environment. Not that it isn't obvious when a scientist is trucking down the road following... no one.

You won't get a mag 4+ confuse past the Controller/Dom lobby. If they don't get it. We don't get it. Used to be that some melee powers had a mag 4 stun, like Total Focus, but that was nerfed a while ago. The next highest I can think of for a hard control power is Soul Transfer and I think death is a pretty good justification for that. Other more esoteric controls like Caltrops "Afraid" don't seem to fall under that same rule, but give Stalkers a primary control like Confuse at mag 4 and watch the sparks fly.

The removal of a single PBAoE and replacement with a high-damage first-strike weapon like AS does not change the whole character of the AT from Scrapper to Hit-and-Runner. If I'm supposed to hit and run why do I have SIX other attacks and an entire defense secondary... just to make good my escape?

It's not exactly Fear (terrorized). It's called "afraid" status and it's something that affects only NPC AIs. It's the same effect that causes mobs to try to run away from Rain of Fire, a lit Oil Slick, Burn, Ignite, etc. It's kind of like Fear in the sense that mobs will only be able to spend SOME of their time attacking you. The rest will be spent trying to get off of the trops. And because it is such a high mag, it affects almost anything short of an AV. I had two Cyclops EBs in a ITF the other day dancing around trying to get away from trops while trying to hit my Nin/Nin stalker. I only ever had one of them attacking me.

Elite... bosses. That's not bad crowd control for a level 10 power on a Stalker.

I also have a AR/Dark corr and I can tell you that caltrops will do a better job stopping an ambush in its tracks than even Tar Patch. With Tar they keep going through it, albeit slowly. With caltrops, they actually stop and turn, try to run, attack. Basically the whole thing runs into them like a train wreck and it takes them a lot longer to get around/through than even the much larger Tar Patch.

I wouldn't. Smoke Flash does cause the placate effect, in that enemies will stop attacking you, but it does NOT put you into hidden status. You won't gain a crit on your next attack unless you wait another 8 seconds (6 if you want to get that AS started early) doing absolutely nothing and hoping nobody you missed with Smoke Flash (because it CAN miss) is able to hit you during that time, spoiling the whole thing.

I mean it may be of some benefit up to the point where you have a full attack chain, but once you DO have a complete attack chain it WILL outdamage an Assassin Strike's damage averaged out over the 8 seconds necessary to regain Hide.

Smoke Flash has some limited use as an escape power, but other than that it is without a doubt the most skippable power in all of Ninjitsu.

I expect it's something of an experiment. Most people can't increase the difficulty right away anyway due to poor accuracy and endurance management in the low levels. I don't know how many times I've joined low-level teams where the idiot-in-charge just had to be set on x2/3 (what used to be called Invincible/Relentless) and half the team, if not all, would wipe on just about every spawn. Not missing that.

I don't know. Maybe they found that new players were quitting when they'd run into this and figured it gave their game a bad first impression. Then again, that doesn't explain the ridiculous ambush mechanics they DID put in. Go figure.

Praetoria has both kinds of ambushes. It's no different than the rest of the game in this regard and it's never had anything to do with Stalkers or stealth. Any player, even one who is not stealthed in any way can avoid a location-targeted ambush just by moving out of LOS of the incoming enemies.

Where Praetoria is notably different is that it features FAR more ambushes, chained ambushes, and even ones that overlap and spawn with very little delay between waves... all at a much lower level than the rest of the game. Either some of that is not working as intended or someone on the dev team was just a bit overzealous.

What soloing trouble? Soloing is arguably what Stalkers are best at.

This is not why they saw through Hide. ANY player-targetted ambush sees through Hide whether the devs have bothered to write the mission text to explain it or not. But that's not really the problem with this mission. Any halfway decent Stalker player can handle ONE ambush at a time. It's not ideal, but it's not a game-breaker either. But this mission featured several ambushes all triggering at once (or near enough that it seemed simultaneous). I saw a steady stream of them myself and killed all but three of them before finally falling with an empty insp tray. And I used every trick I know but plain turning tail and running. I thought I might fail the mish if the ghouls killed the syndicate so I tried to stick it out.

The other problem is that either the ghouls mark you or it's that device, but every last one of them attacks YOU, ignoring all else. I had syndicate slicing ghouls I hadn't even touched yet and they still would not turn to engage the syndicate until I was dead.

Give me this at level 30 or 40... NOT at level 10, guys.

It does affect Placate, however, so that's worth keeping in mind. Won't kill the Hidden status granted by placate but it WILL cancel the target's "placated" status immediately, allowing him to counterattack. Mostly just an issue if you wanted to placate+AS the last enemy in the ambush. Won't be easy if he's able to attack during the interrupt period and you're not soft-capped.

Depends. Aren't even Doms complaining about being unable to hold some of the new Praetorian enemies? And besides, I can tell you it is not often I am attacking a held/slept enemy despite your assurances I should never likely be on a team that lacks control. And what about the steamrolling teams we've been talking about all this time. I don't have time to assassinate a boss but I have time to wait for the Dom to hold/sleep my target and then have time to take advantage of the increased critical rate?

Not implementing an inherent that unfairly disadvantages powersets which don't feature controls would be a start. Stuns were excluded from the old mez-crit for the very good reason that not all powersets had them. And there was no Elec Melee at the time so the only sleep available was Ninjitsu's Blinding Powder. Given its base 180s recharge and low mag 2 sleep, this probably wasn't considered much of an imbalance. Hardly the difference between Golden Dragonfly and Total Focus (which at the time could one-shot stun a typical boss).

It is an unreliable method of achieving the rather simple goal of increasing Stalker damage output. Basically I am gimped whenever I am on a team that does not feature strong controls. Meanwhile the Scrapper charges in as always and gets his 100% reliable better damage than I have no matter what the situation.

That they are not Scrappers is not justification for requiring a level of team dependence that NO other AT currently is saddled with. Seriously, even the Defender inherent just got made less team-dependent. Now it provides a benefit no matter what the team size. Only the nature of the benefit changes. And even that is more of a bonus than a critical piece of their performance picture. What you're suggesting is that the number, type, and competence of teammates should directly affect the Stalker's damage output (what is supposed to be their core competency and reason for existence!) in a way beyond what anyone else has to deal with currently. That is simply unfair and why I wasn't sorry to see the mez-crit go. Goodbye and good riddance!

Honestly, why would you prefer this? It would suck against anything that is mez resistant, suck on teams that don't have a lot of control, more or less force you to take the patron hold, etc.

Why does Stalker performance have to come with all these strings attached when a Scrapper can run around anywhere doing higher melee damage all the time AND being tougher to kill? Isn't AS situational enough?

No it doesn't.

It's not really a bug. Player-targeted ambushes are often necessary to ensure that they are not trivial. Even without stealth of any kind, ANY player can avoid a location-targeted ambush simply by hiding around a corner or ducking into a side-room and then watching the ambushers run right by them. As long as you know where you were standing when the ambush triggered, you simply move away and out of LOS. Some of the ambushes in Praetorian missions ARE of this variety. Not all of them however.

Not saying it doesn't suck for the Stalker but it can be dealt with. Get into position to receive the ambush by ensuring they can't shoot at you from range. Use a corner or other obstacle to force them into melee range as they arrive. Pop the first one who shows his face around the corner with your best normal attack, or even wind up AS if you think you have the defense to avoid their first attack (As Test_Rat said, pop a luck if you have it).

The real problem with Praetorian missions is not that they have ambushes, but that they sometimes have NINE ambushes which may or may not even wait for you to deal with one before triggering the next let alone leaving your newbie time to catch his breath. That's a problem for anyone.

Beyond this, if you're a Ninjitsu Stalker in Praetoria, seriously consider Caltrops at 10. Throw these down at the corner you are hiding behind and it will seriously delay and reduce incoming attacks. Not much else you can do besides running away if things are going down the tubes.

Honestly, it takes only about 3 seconds to land AS give or take a half second (at least according to the real-numbers) and BU can be done on the way to the target. You have been very conservative on the time it takes to land AS (BU, pause, positioning, and then I think using 4s as the activation time) while assuming Blasters are going to be in position to launch their attacks, even line up cones, before the stalker gets there. This is a problem with the stalker's timing at least in part. Get there first, even if it means letting someone else mop up the previous fight. Tankers do this all the time. Stalkers can too. I simply do not have this problem in practice on real teams in game. I can easily land my AS and often another one if the fight ends up spread out and there's another boss on the hoof. They aren't being killed out from under me all the time. Even on teams boosted by kins.

Tar patch does not induce "Afraid" state. You may be thinking of the RoF+TP combo. And I do not dispute the value of Tar Patch. I have a Dark corr and use it all the time on real teams. I am pointing out where in this example of spawns dying too fast (which is the basis of the "Stalkers aren't useful" argument) that other powers which take nearly as long to animate would also be of little use. So what if a few stray minions get tarred? On a team with that much firepower the minions are beneath notice practically. I could SKIP using tar patch on a spawn and you probably wouldn't notice the difference in kill time... assuming that much offense, that is. As it stands, I DO use it all the time. Mostly because spawns just don't die as fast as I read about on the forums on the typical PuGs I run on.

Won't argue that, but a stalker that is quicker TO the target will have the same effect. I can see AS coming down to 2.67 to match Kinetic Melee's version, but not much faster. Certainly no lower than 2s. This is a difference of 1-sec and change from what you have now. That's nothing on a real team. Yeah people would notice if it happened to be the 1s that made a difference but you are assuming quite the level of team synchronization. On real teams, you're lucky if everyone even arrives at the next spawn within FIVE seconds of one another.

The big problem here is PvP. Power effects (i.e. what happens AFTER the power hits) can be altered between PvE and PvP zones. Base attributes like activation and interrupt time cannot, as far as I know. I do not think they'd allow a fast, uninterruptible AS in PvP. Unless they develop the tech to allow this difference, it won't happen even in PvE. Ever.

I was going to try taking some data on the other few stalkers I have. I know I tried Assassin's Blade on my nin/nin and the timestamps came up 3s every time, but I didn't try many tests. If the time is really 3.67 as listed, then I should see some 4s activations in the chat log at least half the time on average.

I hadn't really kept up on the beta discussions of KM so I don't know if it was brought up and discussed. The Build Up time seems to be a copy of Power Siphon's activation time so perhaps it's just a database entry error. But I suppose it could be an experiment in shifting time from AS to Build Up. Interesting thought.

Joe... what does this scenario prove about adding a Stalker to this team that it doesn't also prove about adding ANY more damage to the team? You just obliterated everything but the boss inside of three seconds. What is ANY damage dealing AT going to do except ST damage to that boss that will improve the situation? This certainly isn't a case where AoE helps. In fact it will do LESS than single target here because it will only contribute to further overkill on minions.

Killing this fast makes a lot of things useless, in fact. What chance does anyone have of getting hurt so long as the Brute runs in just a half second before anyone else to grab the aggro? So long, bubblers! Get him a healz0r to top him off between spawns and you're golden. No one else has been touched. And unless my Dark def/corr lands Tar Patch before the Brute gets there (thus taking the alpha) it's not likely to buff ANY of the first round attacks, by which time it ends up only adding a bit of -res to the Boss and then not being availble to use for the next spawn or two (after all, we're killing a spawn per 10 seconds it sounds like).

What does that mean though? A faster Assassin Strike wouldn't make the Stalker in your example much more useful. "Contribute" doesn't mean "kill the enemy one second before someone else would have anyway". If you can go AFK and no one notices... you aren't contributing. Not really. And no one is going to notice AS landing one second earlier if its damage isn't needed anyway.

Odd side note: Playing my newbie KM/SR last night I noticed that KM's AS *does* seem to land a second earlier. Maybe this has been noted elsewhere but its listed activation time is 2.67 and it doesn't appear to be a typo. In my chatlog (which only has 1-second resolution on its timestamps) my AS is landing either 2 or 3 seconds after activation, which would probably average to 2.67 if I took enough samples.